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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

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    etaepsilonk
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:05 pm

    To zino:
    "But without new ships. And the issue is not related to Sevastopol but to the entire BSF asset (Novorossiysk would be the same). "

    Really? I was under the impression that BSF is allowed to have as many ships as per 1997 agreement. Since then, many ships were retired, so it is perfectly possible to add some vessels, if total number doesn't exceed 1997 levels (sorry, I can't find BSF order of battle in 1997).




    "Yanuk cannot (doesn't want to) do such a promise"

    Yanuk cannot (doesn't want to) do many things. But he CANNOT do nothing, if he want to save his political career.





    "According to regnum.ru here is the list (without details of course, copy and paste English translation)"

    As I see, except a few things, there is mainly "let's sit and talk about this or that".

    In regards to AN-124, I don't think it's gonna happen. The only thing which prevents Russia from producing these all by itself, are just the engines. And even those are in development (PD-30).

    About that gas-consortium. That's just my opinion, but I think the structure, which Ukraine suggests, is very cumbersome, and hardly accomplishable.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:23 pm

    That's why New Zealand will never rule the world

    Wouldn't want to even if it was possible.

    Really don't want any one country to be in such a dominant position as to be able to believe they can either... it is called a dictatorship when it happens though when the dictator is the US that is not what they call it.

    So in other words if the pro-American dogs of West Ukraine decide to join EU, join NATO and use MOTOR SICH and ANTONOV and Ukrainian soil to harm and if possible submit Russia then the best Russia should do is to advice Russians in Ukraine to leave their homes and settle somewhere in Siberia where there is plenty of land in abundance and probably let the food hot in the oven to welcome uncle Sam's soldiers.

    The Ukraine is a new country and they have to decide for themselves what they want.

    You are thinking too short term... if Russia exerts effort then it will be Russias fault... let them join the EU and experience what it is like to be dictated to by Brussels. I rather think Brussels will be less flexible and understanding than Moscow... keep in mind that Moscow knows the Ukrainian people rather better than those westerners... westerners who are likely keen to secure some farm land to grow food for a large population... of course when western companies move in and buy up farm land the land will likely be more productive than it has ever been but the Ukraine will see little of the wealth unless they invest in them too... and they have too few funds as it is.

    It may just be a losing battle and it may be in Russia's best interest to watch the country burn from outside.

    I don't think any pro Russians want to see the Ukraine burn or split... but they hopefully realise that they can't drag it around by its nose ring now that it is an independent state.

    Let the child make its own decisions and learn from its own mistakes... unless it gets some experience with the EU then the grass will always look greener to the west.

    BTW all the former soviet republics including Russia are still children when it comes to getting back on their feet like they are today, and I would suggest that the west has no business coming in and pretending to be an ambivalent helpful adult offering unbiased guidance... it is more like the movie home alone where the only adults are not interested in the child left alone at home... they are interested in exploiting the mineral and material wealth the parents left behind.

    Same with Antonov, nobody wants their An-148, they sure as hell don't want the An-70 competing with the A-400.

    Some European countries might be interested in the An-70 as a cheaper and better transport than the A-400M but at the end of the day the An-70 would be killed by those with a vested interest in the A-400M...

    For me it would be like hostage thanking it's captor. But I can thank Russia for swift military withdrawal with no provocations. I can thank for weapons they left for our newly formed military. Biggest thank goes for border demarcation as Kaliningrad bit is tricky one. I can thank for giving our capital back from Poland too.
    But I can't blame Russians. Before that Poland annexed our capital, Germany took over port city and the government while had army that was willing to fight, they ordered to surrender and then fled. It if it wasn't Red army, it would be someone else marching our streets. Victims weren't saints too.

    Most Eastern Europeans seem to think of being hostages in relation to Russia... even though it was the Soviets that held the keys and it was communists of their own countries that locked the doors.

    They often ignore that the iron curtain was a military and economic and political blockade of the entire eastern block so the captors were locked in the very same prison and often lived in conditions no better and sometimes worse than the so called hostages.

    The treatment of communist China showed it was not actually about communism... the real problem was that Russia and the Soviet Union was seen as an imperial threat to the imperial west... what if they threaten our ties to our resources world wide? We might not enjoy such a high living standard... the west will invade a country and kill people just to keep the price of fuel below a certain level... but the hostages idolise the west and couldn't wait to join NATO and go to Afghanistan to kill people... saving democracy again... Rolling Eyes dunno 

    If Russia's hand is so much better than Europe to this struggle then what exactly you afraid of?
    And why Europe is still on the fight?
    And why if Americans have no grip in the matter should win half Ukraine for free?

    Why do crap products that do you harm remain on sale in shops?

    How does Coke and Pepsi remain in business?

    You don't have to be right to sway opinion, you just need access to the right people and influence them by assuring them they will benefit and they will likely drag the population against its will to anywhere.

    Look at the west and Saddams WMDs?

    Afterwards they might even admit they were wrong and that joining Russian economic groupings might have been a better idea but at least the Ukraine is now part of the EU and NATO and is so much more democratic now that Brussels has installed a temporary nominated government to rule over the Ukraine while the assets and resources are stripped... oops while the rule of law is restored and democracy is made more solid.

    OK just watched the press conference. It is sealed. Russia will "adopt" Ukraine backed -obviously- by China's economic mighty.
    Indeed, the Eastern superpowers will not profit financially by this, but is an important intermediate step securing your status while you work towards the conclusive resolution of European Union.

    All of the Ukraines neighbours will benefit from a stable and growing Ukrainian economy... including Russia.

    A Ukraine that turns its back on its largest trading neighbour was not going to succeed on its own and I doubt the EU countries want to make it "U PIGS".

    Yay, more propping up of the failed Ukrainian economy.

    Investing in the Ukraine means you are betting they will recover and start to grow and be able to pay back the debt... it is a gamble and may be written off, but an unstable Ukraine would be a bad neighbour.

    Hopefully in time, America's foreign policy will mature in regards the modern Russia, and Cold War nonsense will end.

    The only two things that would kill US nonsense attitude to Russia would be the collapse of Russia and dramatic growth of China as one thing where it would pretty much be a reverse of the cold war alliance with china against Russia, or an alien invasion where the US would accept the help of anyone... even the French.  tongue 

    So I wonder, if China is Russia's ally in sorting the Ukraine out, what will China expect back, if this cooperation is to have a long term validity?

    China is investing all around the world.

    They are buying farm land in New Zealand, so I would expect they will be buying up enormous tracts of farmland in the Ukraine too so they can produce food and export it to China.

    Because I SINCERELY doubt, that those money would be given to Ukraine just for free.

    The Russian funds seem to be buying up Ukrainian debt and presumably reducing the burden on the Ukrainian economy. The reduction in energy prices should also ease the burden of the Ukrainian people and Ukrainian industry, and is far better for the Ukraine than any EU or IMF offer that will likely include hard to take austerity measures that will not make things better for the people and industry of the Ukraine... but actually make things worse.

    BIG. Question is, what UA actually offered?

    Maybe the prospect of having a neighbour that doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds is worth the investment.

    If they have an election and some EU stooge gets in then Russia can demand repayment of debt... would the EU pay? I doubt it could afford to.

    Personally I think this is about Russia helping its neighbour and hoping that this favour gives returns in the future.

    For instance if the west had genuinely tried to help Russia out of the hole it was in in the 1990s there might have been rather more good will from the Russian side towards the west. Instead the west descended like vultures and tried to pick the corpse... which Russians remember and resent today... and for the foreseeable future.

    Most western members of the public just thought they were helping the Russians and didn't see the pain and suffering of the 1990s and think Russia owes the west for "saving it from communism".

    But without new ships. And the issue is not related to Sevastopol but to the entire BSF asset (Novorossiysk would be the same).

    Don't understand... the Russians can base any new ships they like at Novorossiysk.



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    zino
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  zino on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:01 am

    GarryB wrote: Don't understand... the Russians can base any new ships they like at Novorossiysk.

    In that case I apologize for the wrong information provided. I was under the assumption that the Ukrainian part can dispute the overall potential of the BSF.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:05 am

    They sure have been causing problems with the BSF and other Russian forces in the Ukraine, and are almost guaranteed to cause problems in the future.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:26 am

    To GarryB:
    "Personally I think this is about Russia helping its neighbour and hoping that this favour gives returns in the future."

    You're very naive if you think so.
    Allow me to illustrate with an example:
    During the 90-ties Russia took a lot of loans from IMF (about 20 bln USD if I'm not mistaken).
    Do you think this money was meant to help Russia's economy, or was it something to do with other gains?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:52 am

    Don't understand... the Russians can base any new ships they like at Novorossiysk.

    Russia is and will base all new ships and subs in Novorossiysk. No new ship or sub will go in Sevastopol. Even Su-30, that will replace old navy Su-24 will not be in Sevastopol, but in Russian airfield. In Sevastopol could be only those ships and subs that Russian BSF inherit from Soviet BSF. All new will be in Novorossiysk. With time this will be a problem for Ukraine, because with less Russian ships there, less Russian personal will be there and less money will they get for rent and payments.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:17 pm

    medo wrote:
    Don't understand... the Russians can base any new ships they like at Novorossiysk.

    Russia is and will base all new ships and subs in Novorossiysk. No new ship or sub will go in Sevastopol. Even Su-30, that will replace old navy Su-24 will not be in Sevastopol, but in Russian airfield. In Sevastopol could be only those ships and subs that Russian BSF inherit from Soviet BSF. All new will be in Novorossiysk. With time this will be a problem for Ukraine, because with less Russian ships there, less Russian personal will be there and less money will they get for rent and payments.
    Exactly why I want to see the fleet move to Novorosiisk as soon as possible.

    Let's get this out of the way- Sevastopol is 10 times a better harbor, and leaving it is tragic for the fleet.

    But as soon as we leave, the personnel of the fleet (a significant number when including coastal defenses, marines, naval aviation, etc) will contribute economically to a Russian city, not the Ukrainian gov.
    Ofc the Ukrainian "fleet" will hurt since it relies on the much larger repair capacity of the Russian units to remain operational, but that is their problem.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:42 pm

    Those who say that  Russia should let Ukraine decide at their own and let them get a hard lesson, as well as those who say that Russia should minimize the military and economic cooperation with the unreliable Ukrainians, although they make  good points don't take into account the momentum. They don't see the general plan. 5 years ago I might have join them, but not now.

    Americans should not get the time they so much need to consolidate European puppet states in their favor. Ukraine was an intermediate step to stabilize the "defensive" front and proceed DIRECTLY undermining Europe's political and economic unity.  

    If Europe break then USA deficit giant will collapse instantly. EURO is the sole reason Americans get the leverage to run with this permanent deficits and keep dollar afloat as the reserve currency.

    I mean the whole political game post-2008 is so obvious but yet very few people realize.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:06 pm

    Probably it's just the journalism, but check this out:

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/issifravo-v-janukovyciaus-ir-v-putino-kuno-kalba-tokio-elgesio-jie-sau-leisti-neturetu.d?id=63565274

    I begin to truly believe, that there's something we don't know yet in this deal.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:11 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Probably it's just the journalism, but check this out:

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/issifravo-v-janukovyciaus-ir-v-putino-kuno-kalba-tokio-elgesio-jie-sau-leisti-neturetu.d?id=63565274

    I begin to truly believe, that there's something we don't know yet in this deal.

    Uhh so are you gonna translate all this for us, or will Regular do it?  What a Face 

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:14 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Probably it's just the journalism, but check this out:

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/issifravo-v-janukovyciaus-ir-v-putino-kuno-kalba-tokio-elgesio-jie-sau-leisti-neturetu.d?id=63565274

    I begin to truly believe, that there's something we don't know yet in this deal.

    Uhh so are you gonna translate all this for us, or will Regular do it?  What a Face 

    Well, isn't google translate enough?  Smile 

    Anyway, it said that Putin's and Yanukovich gestures suggest, that they were pretty strained about something, like they would want to tell something, but couldn't. Something like that.


    That's just my personal opinion, but I think Ukraine has agreed to join Customs union.

    My suspicions came from the gas prices. I mean, numerous Russian officials time and time again have stated that gas contract will be reviewed ONLY when Ukraine joins the CU. And now they are wiping that policy away and giving a discount by third for nothing? I REALLY have a hard time believing such fairy tales, mark my words.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Viktor on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:10 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:I begin to truly believe, that there's something we don't know yet in this deal.

    Ukraine will adjust its technical regulation to match those of Custom Union 

    Ukraine and the Customs Union to bring together the technical regulations

    and after 2015 elections 

    Moscow has increased the chances of Yanukovych to win the election

    checkmate !!! Very Happy

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  mack8 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:39 pm

    Maybe some nice MiG-35, Su-30 or 35 and Yak-130  for Ukraine will come out of this too! Their fleet will need replacing sooner or later, even if they will upgrade the current types.

    And yeah, regarding this whole situation, nothing would please the yanks more (THEY have all the strings behind the EU states regretably- not that EU is inherently bad, on the contrary, i believe EU is the way to full European independence from US domination, and a truly independent and united EU will be the world's fourth superpower, it's just the yanks are trying around the clock to manipulate the EU states, weaken them, maintain discord, and use them for their own benefits) than to have Ukraine as one of their "NATO" vassals and host one of these "shields" there too. You can bet these NGOs (filled with spies and agitators) are working full time to mislead the ukrainian people, and not only there, but in Russia too, by fueling anti-ukrainian sentiments.

    Reading some of the propaganda crap over here abut this whole Ukraine and the EU thing and how the evil Putin is being well... evil and stuff, makes one cringe really.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:50 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:I begin to truly believe, that there's something we don't know yet in this deal.

    Ukraine will adjust its technical regulation to match those of Custom Union 

    Ukraine and the Customs Union to bring together the technical regulations

    and after 2015 elections 

    Moscow has increased the chances of Yanukovych to win the election

    checkmate !!! Very Happy

    So, just as I suspected  Wink 

    Also, let's keep in mind, that 15 bln. aid will come not at once, but gradually over the months, and don't know much about that new gas deal, but it has been called "short term". So, I don't think that UA could slip out of this easily.



    To mack8:
    Well, economical and geopolitical potential of Ukraine is HUGE. So there's little wonder, that both camps want it at their side. And you may despise western tactics over this, but let's face it, Russia has been no angel either.

    And about possible arms purchases. Currently, there's a reccession in Ukraine, debts have been pretty high, so I don't think that we could see any significant arms deals soon.

    Unless of course, Lvov delares a rebellion  lol1 


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:52 pm

    zino wrote:
    By the end of the sixth session of the Russian-Ukrainian Interstate Commission, which took place today, December 17, signed 14 documents, reports IA REGNUM .

    Would be nice to have some other members opinion about that content.

    From what I've seen so far and not mentioning the other stuff...Joint ventures between

    - Antonov and Iljushin
    - Juzhmash and Roskosmos
    - Ukr. Shipbuilding industry will be essentially run by Russia and will receive Rus Navy orders

    This is pretty BIG...and to all the naysayers, you're making it sound like it's a gift. Firebird explained it well in his post in the previous page.


    Viktor wrote:Ukraine will adjust its technical regulation to match those of Custom Union

    Ukraine and the Customs Union to bring together the technical regulations

    and after 2015 elections

    Moscow has increased the chances of Yanukovych to win the election

    checkmate !!! Very Happy

    The Party of Regions won 4 out of 5 by-elections held just a few days ago, including in Kiev....I'm sceptical of these doomsday reports of an imminent opposition victory. And what do the neo-Nazis and their rent a mob in Maidan square got to offer anyway Question

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:05 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Probably it's just the journalism, but check this out:

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/issifravo-v-janukovyciaus-ir-v-putino-kuno-kalba-tokio-elgesio-jie-sau-leisti-neturetu.d?id=63565274

    I begin to truly believe, that there's something we don't know yet in this deal.

    Uhh so are you gonna translate all this for us, or will Regular do it?  What a Face 

    Well, isn't google translate enough?  Smile 

    Anyway, it said that Putin's and Yanukovich gestures suggest, that they were pretty strained about something, like they would want to tell something, but couldn't. Something like that.


    That's just my personal opinion, but I think Ukraine has agreed to join Customs union.

    My suspicions came from the gas prices. I mean, numerous Russian officials time and time again have stated that gas contract will be reviewed ONLY when Ukraine joins the CU. And now they are wiping that policy away and giving a discount by third for nothing? I REALLY have a hard time believing such fairy tales, mark my words.

    The Ukrainian opposition has been making some noise about the gas pipeline system having being sold to Russia. This could fit actually; hence the gas price reduction, the fact that Russia was trying to build South Stream to bypass Ukrainian pipeline ownership, and the fact that the EU has now started making problems for South Stream construction.
    It would be a convenient solution at any rate, in Yanukovich's and the Ukraine's position.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:12 pm

    To Cyberspec:
    "From what I've seen so far and not mentioning the other stuff...Joint ventures between

    - Antonov and Iljushin
    - Juzhmash and Roskosmos
    - Ukr. Shipbuilding industry will be essentially run by Russia and will receive Rus Navy orders

    This is pretty BIG...and to all the naysayers, you're making it sound like it's a gift. Firebird explained it well in his post in the previous page."


    Sorry, but what will come out of Ukrainian side in this, to be more exact?

    Because I was under the impression, that all those 3 industries were basically dead already:

    1. In aviation, it's just the engines and that's it. And there are domestic developments to reduce or even eliminate the need for those.

    2. In space, there's Zenit rocket, and that's just about it. And currently, Angara is development (whose one of sole purposes was "to reduce dependance on Ukraine").

    3. In naval matters...  Rolling Eyes  . When was the last time UA made a ship with tonnage of at least 2000 tons? There have been some publications, which stated, what UA officials keep the illusion of Nikolaev shipyard still working with hopes of attracting investment, but in reality, there's nothing really left there. And if Russia really wants to buy ships abroad, why don't buy from France, or South Korea?


    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for mutually beneficial cooperation between all countries. But there have been some cases with contracts and joint ventures starting with Ukraine, only to find out, that Ukraine's offers were just "empty shells", with some money already taken by the officials. Personally, I wouldn't prefer that kind of "cooperation"  Neutral








    To flaming pyton
    Yes, but what's the point of "streams" then? With EU, causing problems, I think, that's more to do with ownership of the parts in EU territory, rather than anything else. So, those problems could be JUST as valid, if the pipe comes out of Ukraine, instead of sea, don't you think?  Smile  And I have read Ukraine officials stating, that control of GTS is "non-negotiable". I don't really think that's impossible, but not really likely, IMO.


    And besides, didn't Russia already learn the lesson with Beltransgaz? I mean, that's like 8 bln USD for company alone, not counting loans, subsidies, investments over the years, which probably amounted to 20 bln. , if not more Neutral

    And now what, they're going to pay UA 15 bln. USD, so that they could "maybe allow the Russians to BUY for another 10 billion their gas pipes (or maybe not)"?  Smile


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Wow, that is a lot of money. Has Ukraine agreed to join CU?

    I'm sure its got various terms attached. For instance, the EU's modest offer meant something like 40% gas price increases to consumers etc.

    The loans will possibly  be secured against assets. Certain terms will need to be met. And the money would come in tranches ie chunks, if targets are reached. That is standard with these types of deals.
    I think Russia has been hit for more than 15bn in the past  - on arms deals when there has been a regime change etc in the M East.

    The sad part of it all was that Russia actually wanted to help many millions who are... basically Russian, and many more millions who are certainly not anti-Russian.

    I wonder if the Ukraine could eventually federalise  in some way, instead of partition? Perhaps the problems were exacerbated by financial difficulties. Actually, I'm sure they made things much worse. Maybe now, things can be cleared up.

    How about helping the many more millions of ACTUAL Russians inside Russia?

    Every penny that is inserted into Ukraine would pay itself back more, and without numerous strings attached, if it was invested into Russia itself. We are massively underdeveloped in many sectors, its not like we have reached a point where direct money injection leads little future gain.

    We are already bankrolling Bateka and his Kingdom, I guess Ukraine is next.


    It was a smart decision to bring Ukraine in to the fold, if Ukraine went in to the EU, then comes NATO membership, and then comes the NATO missile/sneak attack shield. What good would that money had done invested in to Russia if the Russian Federation's critical infrastructure is getting swarming bombardments from NATO's thermonuclear Hellfire?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:30 pm

    Ugh, I pray this does not turn into Russian state aid for Ukrainian defense industries.

    I will hate Putin 10 fold if that is the direction we move in.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:Ugh, I pray this does not turn into Russian state aid for Ukrainian defense industries.

    I will hate Putin 10 fold if that is the direction we move in.


    I'm curious, do you think, 15 bln. loan and that gas contract would be valid, if the Ukraine would join the CU?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:43 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Ugh, I pray this does not turn into Russian state aid for Ukrainian defense industries.

    I will hate Putin 10 fold if that is the direction we move in.


    I'm curious, do you think, 15 bln. loan and that gas contract would be valid, if the Ukraine would join the CU?

    Well I don't believe Putin whatsoever when he says they did not discuss it at all (lol, yeah right)...but I don't know. I think Ukraine is a lost cause, and the best way to turn them into a stable "friend" is to get our own country and politics working and clean. They will come back into the fold naturally then, where else are they gonna go? I don't even really care if they join Putin's Union or not. The loud anti-Russian part of Ukraine is gonna curse Russia even if this bails out their economy.

    I just want to see their defense industry die so that I can see the fallout on Tarsenko's and Kotobod's blogs. Is that so much to ask for Very Happy?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:53 pm

    To TR1:
    " They will come back into the fold naturally then, where else are they gonna go? I don't even really care if they join Putin's Union or not. The loud anti-Russian part of Ukraine is gonna curse Russia even if this bails out their economy."

    About CU, I've read some articles, which said that Bel and Kazakh, being CU members, would bring Russia's economy about 400 billion extra income over the 10 years, although I'm not sure, if those numbers were accurate, or just the speculation. But in any case, Ukraine would bring at least the same amount as those 2 countries combined. Closed custom borders are indeed VERY advantageous, if one has strong and further developing industry (and I'm sure, Russia has that).
    For example, EU membership is EXTREMELY advantageous for the industry of Germany.



    "I just want to see their defense industry die so that I can see the fallout on Tarsenko's and Kotobod's blogs. Is that so much to ask for?"

     lol!  If that happens, they would be saying, that "factories are undergoing modernisation"  Very Happy

    But seriously, UA's defence industry is pretty much dead already. Heck, after signing Thai contract, Malyshev plant made whole 5 tanks in 1,5 years  Rolling Eyes while UVZ, or Lima, could pretty much equip entire armored division in the same time frame.

    flamming_python
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:43 pm

    I really do think it would have been better if the Ukraine joined the AA with none of this sneaky manuevering.

    Could have saved ourselves so much moaning, whining, begging, praying, crying, etc... coming from 'pro-EU' Ukrainians, about how Russia represents backwardness, corruption, Holodomor, whatever.

    Not one other ex-Soviet country comes to mind, that squandered and smashed apart so much that they inherited from the Soviet-era. No wonder many Ukrainians consider that the USSR gave them nothing - looking around now, it's hard to argue.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:59 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:But seriously, UA's defence industry is pretty much dead already. Heck, after signing Thai contract, Malyshev plant made whole 5 tanks in 1,5 years  Rolling Eyes while UVZ, or Lima, could pretty much equip entire armored division in the same time frame.

    I think revival is possible, after all many Russian state defense factories weren't in a much better condition as recently as 5 years ago.
    The question is whether there will be demand for this capacity in Russia or abroad, when there will be a return on the capital investment, whether defense co-operation will be jeopardized by the next anti-Russian government that comes to power, etc...

    Viktor
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:57 pm

    Nice! 

    Putin Says $15Bln Loan to Ukraine Must Be Repaid

    $15 billion aid to Ukraine not a 'gift', Russia expects a 5% return

    it was a bumby ride but I guess Ukraine will eventually come to its goal 

    Ukraine seeking observer status in Eurasian Economic Union - Yanukovych

    Ukraine gov't analyzes which Customs Union documents it may join - Yanukovych

    Sponsored content

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

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