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    Body Armour and Protection systems

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    IronsightSniper
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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:08 am

    http://85.10.199.166/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/vks-vssk-vychlop-e.html

    According to that, the VKS only penetrates NIJ class III or GOST class V armors.


    GarryB
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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:11 am

    It is a sniper rifle so one would assume that out to 400m the target will not be the chest but the head.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:59 am

    12.7 x 108 mm sniper ammunition is hard to come by so don't even start on 12.7 x 54 mm sniper ammunition. On that note, at 400 m range, why even use a VKS? The SVD would do fine at that range. Thing is however, Soviet snipers weren't trained for head shots at 400 meters, but rather center-mass shots with their SVDs. The VKS would come in well in that regard as any terrorist wearing an inch of steel for a vest would get put down anyways.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:15 am

    12.7 x 108mm sniper ammo is hard to come by because most of the 12.7 x 108mm ammo made is for machine guns.

    There is no other sort of 12.7 x 54mm ammo made except sniper ammo so it should be the only type of ammo you can get for that rifle.

    On that note, at 400 m range, why even use a VKS? The SVD would do fine at that range. Thing is however, Soviet snipers weren't trained for head shots at 400 meters, but rather center-mass shots with their SVDs. The VKS would come in well in that regard as any terrorist wearing an inch of steel for a vest would get put down anyways.

    I think you are a little confused.

    There are snipers and there are snipers.

    The average "sniper" in a motor rifle platoon would be trained for head shots to 400m and chest out to maybe 600m. The limitation is the x4 scope and the training rather than ammo or the rifle.

    The sort of snipers using VKS however are more in line with what the west would think of as snipers, but then a police sniper might never engage a target at more than 200m in their entire career a sniper with a VSK will engage targets out to about 600m at most... which is an enormous distance for a silenced round.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:53 am

    I posted an interview with a Soviet sniper somewhere, I'll copy the excerpt.

    SP: What type of ammunition would you sight the SVD in with?
    Andrei: Well it depends on what you had. You could sight it in with the designated sniper round or you could sight it in with ball. It depends on what you had. They might just issue you 20 rounds of sniper ammo or they could say go ###### yourself here's some regular ball ammo. But they weren't looking for precise hits at 400 meters into the left eye. They were looking for hits anywhere in the chest at 400 meters.

    In any case, the question would still stand, why use an overpowered munition designed to perforate body armor at relatively medium ranges for head shots when you can use something like the SVD which could still get a head shot at 400m, and better yet, you could get a hit farther even farther than that? The best advantage the VKS has is it's body armor defeating capabilities, but even at that, a general issue Interceptor Vest would hold it's mettle to it.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:36 am

    The main feature of the VKS is the fact that it has an enormous suppressor and fires subsonic ammo.

    The effective range of an SVD with subsonic ammo is actually quite short because of the steep trajectory of subsonic ammo and there is no subsonic ammo for the SVD in the 700 grain bullet weight range, so really you can't compare.

    A better comparison would be a 9 x 39mm calibre weapon like the various 9 x 39mm suppressed weapons like the VSS and even SR-3.

    Even they can't compete with the VKS and they are not supposed to.

    The VSK is a long range suppressed weapon for use against targets wearing body armour.

    Obviously some types of body armour will stop its round, but even someone rugged up for close combat will have exposed bits... a 50 cal solid bronze slug through the pelvis will slow anyone down if you know what I mean.

    Either way I am happy to drop this... it was only an off the cuff comment... but to answer your question directly... this weapon is specifically designed with a custom designed round for the job.

    It makes sense that if you are issued this weapon your job is to kill at a distance, quietly, and most likely either through a structure like a wall or through personal body armour.

    Ammunition should not be a problem because there is only sniper ammo for this weapon because it is unique. There are no standard assault rifle rounds or machine gun rounds because the only weapon in this calibre is a sniper round so the only round available are sniper rounds.

    The example you gave showed a general shortage of specialist sniper rounds in a calibre very widely used in the conflict by machine guns. One suspects that sniper ammo was sent everywhere machine gun ammo was sent and in some places where snipers were not widely used there were probably great stacks of boxes of the stuff just sitting there with no one asking for it. Sort thing any bureaucracy can do and will do.

    IronsightSniper
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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:05 am

    Good, that was a really unnecessary discussion IMO >.>

    In any case, my first question (at least before said discussion) still stands, does Russia has any plans for a farther off Soldier system like those 2 pictures I posted?

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:36 am

    The best information on that subject I have seen was in Austins post number 6 on this thread.

    It is normal practise to plan several generations ahead, with plans for 2020 and beyond a little sketchy but at least with some basic expectations to guide current and next gen development.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:26 pm


    but the video is aobut french army!!
    will russia build it or buy it??

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:41 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    but the video is aobut french army!!
    will russia build it or buy it??

    Russia has bought sample systems in testing. We will either license produce it or many of its subsystems. The scopes can be adapted to any rifle.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:44 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    but the video is aobut french army!!
    will russia build it or buy it??

    Russia has bought sample systems in testing. We will either license produce it or many of its subsystems. The scopes can be adapted to any rifle.
    can you give me alink that russia get some of them??
    because i'll make athread about that in my forum.(arabian forum)

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:53 am

    ahmedfire wrote:
    can you give me alink that russia get some of them??
    because i'll make athread about that in my forum.(arabian forum)

    http://www.vedomosti.ru/tech/news/2009/08/26/826322

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:21 am

    The electronics like communications stuff is probably of most interest and they might be interested in how the whole thing is integrated together.

    Optics with built in electronics might be of interest too and perhaps the way the electrical power is managed might also be of interest too.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:31 am

    I should note that there is a science journal about Russia using mini-Nakidkas for their troops, which would kill one's thermal signature, making them invisible to say, the FLIR of an Apache helicopter.

    www.moratex.eu/pliki/tww/2009_23/TWW_2009_23_04-ImprovementOfSoldierSurvivability.pdf+Improvement+of+soldier+survivability&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiMzy1rH8A8AOsFxrYM3Fj2DE2XY9Jt3VHzkP3st1yGOcb6lFOeQT2vnbAmPbQVJGZDKtqNxp5GXzm2E2dF9b_VF2Ki1eWjvYEpa6484U_WpK0gT8mXvAOWKx45Fk8rEtif0Yjh&sig=AHIEtbR4aR5GDwuggmTKUtkMwnguZmr59w"

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:28 am

    I would expect that instead of making capes that this material will be used in the outer shell of the camo kits they are working on.

    To be fully effective they will need to apply the material to the boots and weapons and equipment too.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:25 am

    Here is a link to a translation of a page about Barmitsa:

    http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.tsniitochmash.ru%2fequipment.html

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:49 am

    The amount of gear one needs to meet all the requirements of a future soldier is getting silly. For example, that bulky thermal cape. Technology is having a very difficult time reducing weight and size to meet it. US Army FCS is pretty much canceled all items except their network. France is the only nation to really push forward full steam with the concept and even they had to make compromises.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:19 am

    The idea is pretty sound though... I mean one person needs to carry the gear so it makes sense to design it as a set rather than as individual items and then dealing with compatibility later.

    It is anticipated that as the technology improves and the integration improves some items can be merged to reduce total equipment carried.

    In this case I think the material the cape is made of will be used to make the outer shell of whatever the soldier wears so that the cape is no longer necessary.

    This I believe was an original goal of the first systems where every item contributes to certain features.

    Ie instead of a single heavy outer ballistic material that all layers including undergarments are made "ballistic" to add protection so that the outer ballistic material can be made lighter.

    Certainly with electronics they are getting smaller, lighter, and multifunction. Right now you might need a radio and a sat nav receiver, but the next gen might combine these with a few other useful functions... not only reducing physical size but also reducing power requirements.

    It would certainly be easier to reduce the number of items needing to be carried when you treat it as a system or set.


    Edit: The thing I think will be the biggest problem is the fact that previously Russian Army personnel were fairly lightly equipped... when you give them a full sized pack and full belt order equipment I think there will be problems getting all their gear into the existing vehicles. New larger vehicle designs will be needed just to accommodate the extra gear.
    Perhaps the first robot the Russian Army introduces will be a mule that carts around everyones day pack so they can operate with belt order on foot patrols.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:00 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Edit: The thing I think will be the biggest problem is the fact that previously Russian Army personnel were fairly lightly equipped... when you give them a full sized pack and full belt order equipment I think there will be problems getting all their gear into the existing vehicles. New larger vehicle designs will be needed just to accommodate the extra gear.
    Perhaps the first robot the Russian Army introduces will be a mule that carts around everyones day pack so they can operate with belt order on foot patrols.

    What planet did you get that info? Russian soldiers haul 36kg on average, some over 40. Far more than any I know of. French haul 26kg. The big problem is carrying power packs to keep all those electronics running.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:05 am

    Sorry, I should have been clearer.

    Obviously in war you need to carry a lot more kit, but during exercises Soviet units always seem to operate with belt gear alone with no large backpacks.

    Often they didn't even carry chest webbing which only seem to become common after a while in Afghanistan.

    What I meant was that soldiers on manoeuvres seemed very lightly equipped, whereas in conflict zones like in Afghanistan or Chechnia they seem to have addition stuff stacked on top of their vehicles.

    Obviously I may be wrong but it gave the impression that during exercises the bare essentials needed for the exercise were carried whereas during a real conflict everything was carried but that exceeded the internal capacity of the existing vehicles so stuff needed to be carried externally.

    My suggestion is that if the new Russian soldier is going to be fully equipped with all the stuff he needs for war that larger vehicles with more internal storage space for kit will need to be provided for.

    As technology improves the power supply issue can be dealt with.

    By working on the issue as part of a soldier combat system you can design a layer of clothing that is not too far from the skin to keep it warm in very cold conditions that are normally bad for batteries. A vest like battery pack that could be liquid or gel based could serve as trauma protection behind a bullet proof vest to reduce bruising from impacts could be the main power supply for the soldier with all his electronic kit connected to it. When operating from vehicles he could plug in and charge the system up... with a high voltage system it could take just minutes for a recharge time.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:12 pm

    I would guess that 15kg armour was for entry teams for the first guy through the door that always gets shot.

    As it is highest level protection it is probably also worn by bomb disposal guys as well.

    I doubt they would issue it to anyone who has to run or climb or jump.

    Having said that I just finished reading about Soviet soldiers fighting near Murmansk in 1944 and the forces operating behind enemy lines had equipment loads of 40kgs or more as they had to carry absolutely everything with them and operate about 200km north of the Arctic circle.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:47 pm

    Was browsing a site and found that the 15kg body armour they are talking about is designed to stop 338 Laupa Magnum armour piercing bullets from 300m so it is not likely designed for paratrooper use or even standard soldier use.

    It is most likely for that first guy in an entry team that is most likely to get shot as they enter. The combination of this vest and a hand held shield there is probably not much short of an RPG that will reliably stop them.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Pervius on Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:17 pm

    Is Body Armor obsolete?

    The US sold the LRAD sound weapons to China. Couldn't that or a beefed up version just be used on someone with body armor?

    I noticed the Chinese military released a photo of their military wearing some kind of EMF gear to protect them from energy. What is that all about? I have never seen any photo's of Russian or American troops wearing gear to protect them from energy.

    I think the next battlefield will have some very powerful sound weapons, which body army won't help you in.

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:04 am

    The combination of ear plugs and the 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher would be the best defence against such a system.

    That sound weapon system is not meant to injure or incapacitate and it is certainly not intended to be used against armed attackers.

    It is a water cannon to break up demonstrators... something you can use when you find members in the crowd with helmets and gas masks and batons stirring up trouble... not something you point at ma and pa at a rally.

    Most people think body armour is to save soldiers from bullets but the majority of instances it is to protect the soldier from fragments... that is why it is called a Flak jacket... flak being a term for shrapnel or shell fragments, though often associated with anti aircraft guns because they tend to fire HE shells that detonate a the height the enemy bomber stream is operating at. In the planes the threat is shell fragments from shells exploding all around them.

    They are heavy and uncomfortable... but when they do their job they are your best friend... Wink

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    Re: Body Armour and Protection systems

    Post  Pervius on Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:28 pm

    ""It is a water cannon to break up demonstrators... something you can use when you find members in the crowd with helmets and gas masks and batons stirring up trouble... not something you point at ma and pa at a rally."""

    I was talking about the sound weapon. Apparently it was ruled not a weapon...to get around US export laws and sell to China. It is something you point at ma an pa. They have smaller versions the Secret Service uses to deny area access to people.....when they need to.

    ...And those are the "police" versions. I'd imagine they have more powerful types. Russia spent time developing and working on their own equivalents.....as I said...Directed Energy thwarts Body Armor.

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