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    Russian Navy: Status & News #2

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 29, 2015 10:06 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Rus. Navy ships may receive electrical propulsion system of Russian production - said the head of the United shipbuilding Corporation Alexey Rakhmanov

    Currently on most warships, the transmission of power from the engine to the propeller shaft is via a gearbox. In the electrical propulsion system, electric power will power the engine and rotate the propellers.

    The obvious advantage of such a system for warships is the ability to quickly change the speed of propeller rotation and the ships direction, and consequently resulting in a higher acceleration and maneuverability of the ship. In addition, the implementation of the principle of electrical propulsion allows for freer layout of the ship in the sense of the location of the main power plant.



    The use of electrical propulsion system is being considered as a auxilary system to the main propulsion system in the design of the prospective destroyers

    http://flotprom.ru/2015/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8437/

    Damn good news. I wonder what made them wait so long. Less wight and noise, no mechanical energy converters. Just raw power cables and engine.

    Electrical drive instead of gas turbines is definitely breakthrough idea. One nuclear reactor just feeds all electrical drives. including deck rail guns Smile



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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  flamming_python on Fri May 29, 2015 11:26 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Rus. Navy ships may receive electrical propulsion system of Russian production - said the head of the United shipbuilding Corporation Alexey Rakhmanov

    Currently on most warships, the transmission of power from the engine to the propeller shaft is via a gearbox. In the electrical propulsion system, electric power will power the engine and rotate the propellers.

    The obvious advantage of such a system for warships is the ability to quickly change the speed of propeller rotation and the ships direction, and consequently resulting in a higher acceleration and maneuverability of the ship. In addition, the implementation of the principle of electrical propulsion allows for freer layout of the ship in the sense of the location of the main power plant.



    The use of electrical propulsion system is being considered as a auxilary system to the main propulsion system in the design of the prospective destroyers

    http://flotprom.ru/2015/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8437/

    Damn good news. I wonder what made them wait so long. Less wight and noise, no mechanical energy converters. Just raw power cables and engine.

    Electrical drive instead of gas turbines is definitely breakthrough idea. One nuclear reactor just feeds all electrical drives. including deck rail guns Smile



    Of course you would still have mechanical energy converters - they're called electric engines; they convert elecricity back into mechanical power.

    For those ships that are too small for nuclear reactors - gas turbines are still going to be used; only for generating elecricity rather than powering propellers directly via mechanical transmissions. Which is something they're better at anyway; gas turbines are most efficient when operating at constant high-loads; which will be just fine for generating electric power and charging accumulators/batteries.

    I'm also surprised they haven't done this earlier.
    Diesel-electric transmission for trains has been the norm for decades now - where the diesel engine doesn't provide locomotion directly; but is used for generating power that the smaller electric motors slaved to each axel use in order to actually propel the train.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  flamming_python on Fri May 29, 2015 11:29 pm

    victor1985 wrote:How nice would be to put a railgun on submarines...they could hit ships...
    And maibe could find a way to shoot in water....maibe faster new torpedo will apear

    The problem with firing a railgun from a sub is that it would instantly give away the sub's position; as well as its depth, bearing, inclination, etc...

    Uber-bad idea.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  George1 on Sat May 30, 2015 12:46 am

    Rogozin: Russia will replace the Ukrainian engines for the Navy by 2018

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat May 30, 2015 3:16 am

    victor1985 wrote:How nice would be to put a railgun on submarines...they could hit ships...
    And maibe could find a way to shoot in water....maibe faster new torpedo will apear
    bad idea- you can only fire above water. try to do it underwater and a nice s/c will fck your railgun up. bonus points for that massive current being dumped into water producing impressive amounts of steam, oxygen and hydrogen in record time that it will fck up your sub too when the mix blows up.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  George1 on Sun May 31, 2015 12:13 pm

    Russia has planned for 2016 to conduct joint naval exercises with the Navy of Brunei

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  franco on Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:12 pm

    Russian Navy to receive 50 ships in 2015 of which 11 are for the Black Sea;
    https://defencerussia.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/russian-navy-to-receive-more-than-50-ships-of-various-classes-in-2015/

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:38 pm

    "Dagdizel" has begun to develop high-precision underwater weapons

    MOSCOW, Jun 2, — RIA Novosti. Specialists of the plant "Dagdizel" (Kaspiysk) began development of a precision underwater weapons, told RIA Novosti on Tuesday, the chief designer of the enterprise, the first Chairman of the Russian scientific Council on torpedoman academician Shamil Aliyev, without specifying because of the secrecy, which is a weapon.
    This information he reported on the meeting with Deputy Minister of defense of Russia Yuri Borisov, the General Director of Corporation "Tactical missile armament" Victor Obnosov and management of the concern "Sea underwater weapon — Gidropribor, who last week called for "Dagdizel".
    "We have reported that the plant is a further development of the problem of vysokotochnoi of Russian weapons, including underwater. In addition, the guests were informed about the approaches to establishing objectives for reliability, performance and noise immunity of underwater weapons," — said Aliyev.
    He also said that in 2016 in St. Petersburg it is planned to conduct the first scientific conference on ideology torpedo weapons.
    Previously Aliyev said RIA Novosti that the main task of the Russian torpedoman at this stage is equipped with the latest in underwater weapons of artificial intelligence. The latest Russian torpedoes will be equipped with a digital information management system that will allow this weapon to combine the functions of a scout, observer and means of the direct impact, said Aliyev.

    So life after Fizik? I wonder what else above underwater robots and torpedoes you can think off? In every case good news Smile

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  runaway on Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:56 pm

    George1 wrote:Rogozin: Russia will replace the Ukrainian engines for the Navy by 2018

    OMSK, June 3./TASS/. Russia cannot complete the construction of some naval ships as Ukraine has suspended supplies of gas-turbine engines, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday.

    "We cannot finish the construction of surface ships for the Russian Navy as supplies [of gas-turbine engines] have been stopped," Rogozin said in the Siberian city of Omsk.



    He said within the import substitution plan, Russia plans to launch the production on 186 items that were earlier produced in Ukraine, first of all gas-turbine engines.

    "We are planning to complete this [import substitution] work before 2018," the top official noted.

    Admiral Grigorovich class frigates (Project 11356) and Admiral Gorshkov class frigates (Project 22350) use Ukrainian gas-turbine engines, in particular.

    So will these badly needed frigates lay idle at the shipyards until 2018-19!? No

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:20 pm

    runaway wrote:
    George1 wrote:Rogozin: Russia will replace the Ukrainian engines for the Navy by 2018

    OMSK, June 3./TASS/. Russia cannot complete the construction of some naval ships as Ukraine has suspended supplies of gas-turbine engines, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday.

    "We cannot finish the construction of surface ships for the Russian Navy as supplies [of gas-turbine engines] have been stopped," Rogozin said in the Siberian city of Omsk.



    He said within the import substitution plan, Russia plans to launch the production on 186 items that were earlier produced in Ukraine, first of all gas-turbine engines.

    "We are planning to complete this [import substitution] work before 2018," the top official noted.

    Admiral Grigorovich class frigates (Project 11356) and Admiral Gorshkov class frigates (Project 22350) use Ukrainian gas-turbine engines, in particular.

    So will these badly needed frigates lay idle at the shipyards until 2018-19!? No

    Russia is already testing gas turbine engines for ships. So the 2018 mark may be even off and could be earlier. Or the gas engines are not the right type for these two ships and will have to look elsewhere or design a new ship. This was Russia's fault entirely, as they relied on importing, like I pointed out is a major issue for a long time prior to this and many losers on here called me stupid for it. Guess who was right in the end?

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    Gross Incompetence

    Post  calripson on Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:21 am

    How long ago was the Orange Revolution ? To rely on Ukraine to supply critical military components till 2014 is pure and absolute incompetence. Also, if Russia wants to replace those gas turbines in 6 months instead of 3 years just turn to China. I can guarantee they can knock off a copy of those Ukrainian turbines in 1/5 the time it will take Rogozin et al to accomplish it.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:02 am

    I remember reading on sdelanounas of a Diesel electric engine for ships that is undergoing tests. I cannot find it now as it was not listed under shipbuilding and it was a month or two ago. But point is, they have it, at least for certain ships. I don't see how they cannot retrofit the engines to other platforms.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:56 am

    The problem is that your advice would have led to a self fulfilling prophesy...

    What I mean is that if Russia had just cut all military ties with the Ukraine then the Ukraine would have a justifiable reason to cut off from Russia and so the coup would not have been needed, the Crimea would still be Ukrainian and all of the Ukraine would be looking west... before you know it the Ukraine would have done everything it could to kick the Russian fleet out of Sevastopol and get NATO ships in there and they would not have needed to resort to the nazis they ended up resorting to to show their true colours... and there still would have been a delay while Russian companies developed products to fill the gap.

    Playing the way they did they gave the Ukraine every chance to realise that Russia is not going anywhere and good relations with a neighbour are better than bad ones... it is not like either country can move out.

    It is sad that the Ukrainian companies are being forced to stop trading with their biggest customer, but at the end of the day it is their choice and they have clearly made it.

    Russia just needs to deal with that and realise that at the end of the day when the delay has passed and all is said and done they will have better control over their military supplies and will be spending less in the Ukrainian economy and more in their own...

    It is like the situation with lend lease during WWII... many in the west point to all the trucks that were sent to the Soviets and how they would have been crippled without them.... this of course assumes they could not build trucks for themselves. Of course they could, but if you are buying them from the west... why make your own. The resources not used making more trucks were used to make other things like tanks and planes etc, but at the end of the day if they didn't get trucks from the west they could have built them and just built fewer tanks and planes.

    It is the same here... if you were buying engines from the Ukraine there is no point in building the same yourself... now that the ukraine no longer supplies those engines it makes sense to now produce them, though they will have to set up production for them... preferably the same as the ukrainian engines to begin with as the ships are designed to use them, but later on it makes sense to develop Russian families of engines that are related and standardised and adapt future ships to the new engines...


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  wilhelm on Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:47 am

    runaway wrote:

    "We are planning to complete this [import substitution] work before 2018," the top official noted.

    Admiral Grigorovich class frigates (Project 11356) and Admiral Gorshkov class frigates (Project 22350) use Ukrainian gas-turbine engines, in particular.

    So will these badly needed frigates lay idle at the shipyards until 2018-19!? No

    It is always difficult with regards to translated articles or quotes, but it does look like he is saying that it would be in place before 2018.
    So he is using 2018 as a "by the latest date" which means probably sometime in 2017 production engines to be fitted into the hulls.

    If this is the reality, then to me, waiting for a year and a half/ 2 years, or 700 days, is a far better proposition than farming it out, even "temporarily", to another external source like China.
    "Temporary" arrangements often have a habit of becoming more "permanent" because of politics.
    And politics can change overnight, as we all know.
    Far better to wait the 700 days out (or less) and secure it within Russia.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:06 pm

    Based on this photo below, and the fact that Ivan Gren has a telescopic hangar...



    ...is this possible?


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:24 pm

    With wings and rotors folded the Kamov is a very compact helo and could potentially be stored side by side...


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    Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  franco on Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:00 pm

    Not sure why this boat is being produced as well as the Raptor but the second vessel has been launched;

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1330627.html

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    Work

    Post  calripson on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:56 pm

    It is being produced to give the shipyard something to do within its capabilities.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:05 pm

    United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) is going to court to seek paid before the delivery of gas turbine engines (GTE) for the Russian frigate, told RIA Novosti on Monday, the press service of the corporation.

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150608/1068792281.html&usg=ALkJrhji8wQubYVqbQRmRHnRhg3G2HZQsw

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:32 pm

    Frigates with new Russian power plants will have superior characteristics


    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150608/1068798974.html
    MOSCOW, 8 Jun — RIA Novosti. Russian frigates of project 11356 and 22350, which was supposed to equip the Ukrainian gas turbine engines (GTE), will receive the Russian power plant, surpassing Ukrainian counterparts, told RIA Novosti on Monday, the press service of the United shipbuilding Corporation.
    "The first three frigates of project 11356 and the first two ships of project 22350 is already equipped with GTE Ukrainian production. Subsequent frigates of both projects will be equipped with power units of Russian production with characteristics superior to Ukrainian counterparts," — said the press service.
    The launching of the frigate of project 11356. Archive photo
    © RIA Novosti. Igor Zarembo | Buy illustration
    USC will sue Ukraine for non-delivery of engines for frigates
    Work in this direction is expanded Rybinsk NPO "Saturn", which in cooperation with several Russian industrial enterprises already started the revision of existing Russian projects GTE. The production of the first Russian engines of this type is scheduled for late 2017 — early 2018, said in USC.
    It is also reported that there are "concrete decisions" on imports of gears for propulsion systems with GTE at the facilities of the St. Petersburg plant "Zvezda".


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:03 pm

    I came across this article from VICE where an american writer was talking about Chinese scientists have newly developed "lubricant" or a "liquid membrane" as they call it. By controlling the spread of this membrane they expect to control the bubble shape, thus control the steering. He linked it as China's Newest SUB: Supersonic Underwater and called it bullshit . Suspect


    Read his views on Shkval and let me know is it true or just another military expert poser from american basements . pirat


    Cavitation is either bad news, very bad news, or totally awesome news — it all depends on what you're up to. First, the bad news. When moving parts — like a propeller — cause cavitation, the microjets caused by the collapsing bubbles can do a fair amount of damage, even to metal surfaces, tearing up equipment something fierce. (This is also the phenomenon in play when something is cleaned "ultrasonically." But in ultrasonic cleaning, the idea is that the microjets are powerful enough to knock off the munge, but not so powerful that they damage the thing being cleaned.)


    The very bad news is that the shockwave from a collapsing bubble is noisy. While that's not a concern for some, it's a huge concern for people who spend all of their time trying to be sneaky by hiding in vast quantities of saltwater — sailors on military submarines, for instance. Noisiness is considered worse than physical damage and gets rated as very bad news here because I write about defense issues, not industrial processes. (That said, sub skippers certainly don't want their propellers damaged.)



    The theoretically totally awesome news is that if you move something through the water fast enough, the bubble created by cavitation gets enormously large, and it really starts to cut down on the drag experienced by the vessel. Do it fast enough — you can also emit a little bit of gas from the nose of a fast-moving object to create or enlarge a bubble — and the bubble envelops and becomes larger than the object moving through the water. Voilà — supercavitation!

    This means the object underwater has no contact with any liquid except for a tiny little area at the front where the bubble is being created. It also means (almost) no hydrodynamic drag is produced, which is basically a license to go mind-blowingly fast.

    What the fine folks at Harbin have figured out how to do is reduce the speed at which an object can start supercavitating. By spooing out liquid from the front of a vessel — say, a submarine — they can theoretically get supercavitation to occur at speeds as low as 45 mph.

    This revelation has inspired people to daydream about sailing submarines around the world at a zillion miles per hour as supercavitating angels descend from heaven to sing the praises of supercavitation and a new utopian era is ushered in.

    Sadly, all of this — supersonic submarines and supercavitating angels — is, from a technical engineering point of view, complete bullshit.


    ____________________________________

    The Russians have been doing some leading-edge research to make hella fast torpedoes, because if a torpedo is screaming toward its target at hundreds of miles per hour, there's really no evasive maneuver in the world that will help the target ship. The Russian Shkvall torpedo plows through the water at a brisk 230 mph.

    Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.

    There's one thing that would be even louder than a supercavitating torpedo, and that is a supercavitating submarine. In fact, it might as well tweet its position and heading, and send out e-vites to enemy torpedoes. That's why submariners, who try to be the ninjas of the sea, generally believe that a supercavitating submarine is totally insane.


    There's a final problem with zipping around at a few hundred miles per hour in a supercavitating sub: You can't tell what's in front of you. Sonar is more or less out of the question in part because of all the noise you're already making. The Shkvall torpedo can be steered because it gets guidance signals through a wire connected to the submarine that fired it, but unspooling a 6,000-mile-long wire while traveling hundreds — or thousands! — of miles per hour across an entire ocean is… well, let's just say it's not currently feasible. So a supersonic submarine crossing an entire ocean at thousands of miles per hour is basically just a gigantic underwater harpoon looking for a whale or ship or Great Pacific garbage patch to ram.





    https://news.vice.com/article/all-about-the-pacific-oceans-newest-sub-supersonic-underwater-bullshit

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:26 am

    Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.


    Hahaha... the hiss created by thousands or hundreds of thousands of small bubbles collapsing on a propeller blade that is spinning too fast is not the same as the single bubble that envelops a Shkval torpedo... if was just a weapon to kill everyone in the vicinity of a dying sub then why bother developing a torpedo that has to be aimed or guided... a small nuke would do the same job and lead to a much quicker and less painful death for the crew.

    Shkvall is not just used in subs, it is also mounted on platforms and used in harbours... yet again the west dismisses a technology it has largely ignored... when US subs have supercavitating torpedoes however it will be the cutting technology of the century....  Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:30 pm

    Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.
    some quick and dirty calcs:
    1000 miles ~= 1610 kms, speed of sound in water is 1482m/s so time for sound to arrive at that distance is ~=18 minutes, and not a minute.
    say the launcher is a kilo and spends half of that time running at full speed - 21 knots then silent running at 3 knots for the rest- the search area becomes 141.2 km^2, might as well have dissolved into sea foam unless you have psychics in your employ. Razz

    overall a nice demo of the dunning-krueger effect, i admit i make the same type of mistakes but heck no one pays me for this.


    Last edited by collegeboy16 on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.


    Hahaha... the hiss created by thousands or hundreds of thousands of small bubbles collapsing on a propeller blade that is spinning too fast is not the same as the single bubble that envelops a Shkval torpedo... if was just a weapon to kill everyone in the vicinity of a dying sub then why bother developing a torpedo that has to be aimed or guided... a small nuke would do the same job and lead to a much quicker and less painful death for the crew.

    Shkvall is not just used in subs, it is also mounted on platforms and used in harbours... yet again the west dismisses a technology it has largely ignored... when US subs have supercavitating torpedoes however it will be the cutting technology of the century....  Rolling Eyes

    That is the same propaganda and garbage talk to justify why US has no such technology, just like they did with T-72 autoloaders the legendary Arm eaters, however never seen a shred of evidence for this bullshit because we know it is just western propaganda, not to mention it is an AUTOLOADER no one needs to have their hands even close to that.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  max steel on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:41 pm

    I will not call shkval even a revenge weapon . Do subs patrol in pairs ?

    If not . then imagine russia encounters rogue american sub in pacific now russian sub can fire its shkval torpedo and american sub will fire its guided torpedo now before american torpedo reaches russians sub american will get destroyed .

    Can Russian sub manage to come back safe in such an encounter is doubtful though . TR1 said thereis no solid evidence to prove that russian navy has deployed shkval .

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