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    Russian Navy: Status & News #2

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    TR1
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:15 pm

    We are getting into too many ifs. Destroyer will take a while to get ready, no doubt about that.

    However 22350 pretty much eclipses the old destroyers in capability, despite displacement, so they will be fine in the meantime.

    Like I said, no plans to upgrade 1155 right now whatsoever.

    Nobody wants Ivan Gren, so I don't think the destroyers will have delays like that. All depends on their weapon systems- if it is scaled up 22350 then I don't think it will be too difficult. If the ship is twice the size and has completely different systems, well, then post 2020 time frame is probably what we are looking at.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:32 am

    http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/251692.html

    Nice photos of the "Zvezdochka" rescue ship. Made of course @ Zvezdochka.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:47 am

    TR1 wrote:We are getting into too many ifs. Destroyer will take a while to get ready, no doubt about that.

    However 22350 pretty much eclipses the old destroyers in capability, despite displacement, so they will be fine in the meantime.

    Like I said, no plans to upgrade 1155 right now whatsoever.

    Nobody wants Ivan Gren, so I don't think the destroyers will have delays like that. All depends on their weapon systems- if it is scaled up 22350 then I don't think it will be too difficult. If the ship is twice the size and has completely different systems, well, then post 2020 time frame is probably what we are looking at.

    Gorshkov is probably Russia's most important Naval project next to Borei and Yasen as Gorshkov is what is needed for the Blue Navy Fleet.  So many ships are aged and will need to retire, and Gorshkov is pretty much that ship that acts as a real replacement.

    Yasen's on the other hand need to also be put out.  But the cost is out of this world.

    navyfield wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What if there are massive delayswith the new destroyers just like what happened to the yasen, Ivan gren, lada, etc.? Will upgrading them be a plan B?
    russian navy status in 1 word- disaster.

    And yet, they have one the largest navy next to USA, with far more active SSBN's than others next to USA. Only issue is the age of the fleet, so the need for Gorshkov and Yasen's are the primary target so far. Well, of course the add in of the auxillery ships and possibly a carrier or LPD.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:07 am

    russian navy status in 1 word- disaster.

    Their corvettes are getting single UKSK launchers and therefore will have more long range nuclear firepower than any NATO vessel except the US, UK and France.

    Their SSBN fleet alone means the disaster will afflict any nation that opposes the Russian Navy.

    They certainly have a lot of problems and are at an early stage of rebuilding, but unlike most western navies they are fully funded and can look forward to rather more defence spending than other NATO countries combines minus the US of course.

    the reforms and changes mean the future Russian navy will be much leaner and much more powerful.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:22 pm

    Right from the Russian Mordor  Very Happy 

    In pictures. SSBN "Ekaterinburg" and SSK "Vladikavkaz" on SRH "Star"

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:42 am

    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What country in the caspian would dare to confront russia's interests there? The almighty azeri or turkmen navies? LOL Even Iran isn't powerful there. IMO the caspian doesn't need warships at all . Land based Onyx and calibr, bereg artillery as well as the VVS would completely suffice in wiping out anything attacking  russia there. Something as powerful as the buyan is completely unnecessary. The only boats russia would need there are some police or border guard patrol boats there. No more.

    Well, the Russian navy disagrees with you. What can I say?

    Get rid of any units in the area and suddenly you do have a potential for problems. Like I said, Kalibr is usefull for covering entire region, from relative safety of Caspian.

    And once again, they can easily and quickly be transferred to the BSF.
    May I ask how exactly they can be transferred "quickly and easily"? Is there a new canal connecting the Black and Caspian sea?

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:06 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What country in the caspian would dare to confront russia's interests there? The almighty azeri or turkmen navies? LOL Even Iran isn't powerful there. IMO the caspian doesn't need warships at all . Land based Onyx and calibr, bereg artillery as well as the VVS would completely suffice in wiping out anything attacking  russia there. Something as powerful as the buyan is completely unnecessary. The only boats russia would need there are some police or border guard patrol boats there. No more.

    Well, the Russian navy disagrees with you. What can I say?

    Get rid of any units in the area and suddenly you do have a potential for problems. Like I said, Kalibr is usefull for covering entire region, from relative safety of Caspian.

    And once again, they can easily and quickly be transferred to the BSF.
    May I ask how exactly they can be transferred "quickly and easily"? Is there a new canal connecting the Black and Caspian sea?

    There has been one for a long time. Apparently, a ship of up to 6000 tonne displacement can go from the Caspian sea to the Black sea via the Volga river to the Volga-Don canal, then via the Volga-Don canal to the Don river, and finally via the Don river to the Black sea.

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    Russian Navy: Status & News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:00 am

    Makes the Caspian a nice little basin for keeping some extra little toys 'in storage'  Twisted Evil
    And in the meantime keeping the peace there too.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:26 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Gorshkov is probably Russia's most important Naval project next to Borei and Yasen as Gorshkov is what is needed for the Blue Navy Fleet.  So many ships are aged and will need to retire, and Gorshkov is pretty much that ship that acts as a real replacement.

    I think Russia strategy is a wrong one.. Russia military Industry is very slow and inefficient and will never catch US NAvy size in a vis vs vis..  CHina already surpassed Russia navy in destroyers and Frigates. As 2012 ,China have ~25 destroyers ,47 frigates.. most of them brand new.. . Russia have 18 old destroyers(including cruisers) and 5 old frigates. with 63 submarines for china and 59 for Russia.    

    http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=China

    For sure Russia have better weapons...the point however is that Russia small navy can be reduced to half in just any small conflict in no time by an airforce. Money that they could have better spend in an Powerful tactical Airforce.

    Warships are nice shor show of power.. but they are very vulnerable to Air force today. Whats good about a Gorshkov Frigate if can be overwhelmed by 10 cheap patrol boats firing anti-ship missiles at the same time or simply a fishing boat or a mine. Even Syria customized Migs-23 to launch Yakhonts supersonic will be a very dangerous weapon to any modern warship. History is full of examples of cheap planes that fly under the radar with an anti-ship missile to sink a powerful warship. 1 hit ,1 kill. like Falklands wars. The Gorshkov or any other warship from any nation can be overwhelmed and will not survive a salvo attack of just 5-10 planes flying under the radar in a massive attack of a couple of dozens of anti-ship missiles at same time.. Also very vulnerable to mines or simply scuba divers in Underwater bikes ,carrying a bomb.

    It will be far Better for Russia to focus instead its Resources and money on Modernizing its Airforce and increasing its size dramatically. . So increasing its Industrial Capacity and getting a dozen of stealth Bomber like PAK-DA ,or better design a Hypersonic very high altitude Bomber that could fly 32km altitude or more and change course at will , will make very challenging to intercept them by any system of defense in the world .

    I don't see the point of for example of having a ballistic Submarine if you can launch the same missile from Russia land on a mobile transport. So Russia will increase much more its deterrence by Building a very modern ,massive stealth strategic Airforce that could fly to any place in the world very fast and launch hypersonic Missiles Nuclear and conventional to any place.  

    Instead of making very vulnerable warships ,that are very slow ,takes days if not weeks to deploy them for the desired place of conflict.. Much better to replace the navy with a power modern Air force that could reach any place in a couple of hours.

    So instead of building warships, that cost $US 1 billion or 2 each..better create upgraded stealth versions of their Tu-160s or Tu-22s in Big numbers that could launch conventional or nuclear attacks in any part of the world.

    Also creating military Airbases in zones of potential future conflict that they have interest will significantly decrease the need for very long range bombers or even the need for aircraft carriers.Which is another mistake. Having Military Airports in Nations like Egypt ,Syria , IRAN persian Gulf (close to Saudi Arabia) ,Venezuela , Vietnam.. Will Dramatically Increase Russia projection capabilities and be in any part of the world withing 2 hours. ,without the need build a very expensive very vulnerable navy ,with a cheap plane like a Tu-22 armed with hypersonic nuclear or conventional missiles.

    So for example Russia cancel any new submarine.or Big warship  and focus all its resources in building a massive Airforce of tactical stealth bombers by building a stealth version of Tu-22 and TU-160 and building a hypersonic Pak-DA. and deploy them in their new military bases .for example 30x TU-22/ 10 x Tu-160  with a couple of Pak-Da in venezuela., 50x Tu-22 in Syria , 50x Tu-22 + few pak-Da  IRAN , 20x TU-22 Vietnam and the rest of the planes in Russia . such kind of force all armed with Nuclear and/or tactical missiles will become a powerful deterrent than any submarine fleet .Because of the speed at what they can launch an attack. and overwhelm any Aircraft carrier group in any part of the world.

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    Not That Simple

    Post  calripson on Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:26 pm

    I agree from a strategy perspective and cost/benefit analysis surface warships are an inefficient use of resources. (Particularly WWII era carrier task groups of the USA). However, it is not that simple.

    First, there is a continuum of conflicts ranging from a peacetime psychological show of force to all out nuclear warfare. Surface ships have significant utility in much of the range of these conflicts short of all out war.

    Secondly, there is an economic and technological aspect to ship building. Russia wants to not only build ships for its navy, it wants to export also. It wants to develop its technological base not only for military shipbuilding, but also for commercial shipbuilding.

    Finally, thousands of workers rely on shipbuilding for their livelihood and many of the centers of shipbuilding have no other source or likely source of economic growth. They are geographically reliant on the navy/shipbuilding.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:58 pm

    Its just great how Russians managed to squeeze in Kalibr/Klub missiles in it making it a highly potent and dangerous weapon.

    Russian Missile Corvettes Ready to Enter Service in Caspian

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  zg18 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:32 pm

    5th project 22460 "Rubin" class for FSB Coast guard , No. 505 "Amethist"

    laid down  in 2013 , quick pace



    Interesting that "Rubin" class can carry 4 Kh-35

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin-class_patrol_boat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:30 pm

    Viktor wrote:Its just great how Russians managed to squeeze in Kalibr/Klub missiles in it making it a highly potent and dangerous weapon.

    Russian Missile Corvettes Ready to Enter Service in Caspian

    It takes basically the entire superstructure height to get those long missiles in there. The whole ship is desighned around them IIRC, though basis was obviously 21630.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:47 am

    Yay, confirmation that 11356 will indeed have A-190-01.

    http://burevestnik.com/products/nov34.html

    "В соответствии с государственным оборонным заказом ЦНИИ «Буревестник» в кооперации с партнерами по отрасли в течение 2013 года изготовил и поставил военным кораблестроителям уже шесть корабельных пушек А190-01. Из них три — на Зеленодольский завод им. М. Горького, две — на прибалтийский завод «Янтарь» и одну — на завод «Северная верфь»."

    In 2013 they delivered 6 A-190-1 complexes: 3 to Zelenodolsk (21631), 2 to Yantar (11356 Smile ) and 1 to Severnaay (Boiki).

    Nice pics of sisters:





    Weird paintjob, guessing it is dark due to proximity to the Gibka launcher in front of the bridge.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:24 am

    I think Russia strategy is a wrong one.. Russia military Industry is very slow and inefficient and will never catch US NAvy size in a vis vs vis..

    Having a US sized Navy would be pointless for Russia... they could not afford a navy that size and would have no use for such a navy.... in every regard except SSBN where they will have a navy comparable to the US navy SSBNs.

    CHina already surpassed Russia navy in destroyers and Frigates.

    Many Asian countries have small fishing boats in numbers that far outnumber any European western country... they are dreadfully inefficient at catching fish and delivering them to market.

    For sure Russia have better weapons...the point however is that Russia small navy can be reduced to half in just any small conflict in no time by an airforce. Money that they could have better spend in an Powerful tactical Airforce.

    A powerful airforce did not defeat Vietnam, nor did it defeat Somali rebels... and it has not defeated any country as far as I know on its own.

    Russia has maritime territory it has to defend and patrol and an air force is not efficient at such things.

    It is much cheaper and easier to send a small group of ships to sail anywhere in the world than it is to send aircraft anywhere on the planet.

    Warships are nice shor show of power.. but they are very vulnerable to Air force today. Whats good about a Gorshkov Frigate if can be overwhelmed by 10 cheap patrol boats firing anti-ship missiles at the same time or simply a fishing boat or a mine.

    Those ten cheap patrol boats are rather more vulnerable to that Frigate than vice versa. Air threats are taken seriously by the Russian Navy... the air defence missiles carried by the Gorshkov will not be S-300 based... they will be S-400 based... with a 32 tube launcher that Gorshkov Frigate... on its own has the equivalent of 128 S-400 60km and 150km range high performance SAMs... personally I think it is the Air Force that is in trouble... most enemy air forces are not that sophisticated anyway... 2-3 Gorshkovs sailing down to the Falklands facing Argentinas 200 A-4 Skyhawks and Mirage F-5s would clean the skies fairly rapidly.

    Even Syria customized Migs-23 to launch Yakhonts supersonic will be a very dangerous weapon to any modern warship.

    A Mig-23 would have no where to hang a Yakhont missile.

    History is full of examples of cheap planes that fly under the radar with an anti-ship missile to sink a powerful warship. 1 hit ,1 kill. like Falklands wars.

    No it isn't. Falklands is about the only example and shows why a decent air craft carrier with decent fixed wing fighter aircraft and AEW aircraft are necessary.

    Flying low and fast is no longer sufficient, with modern ships having air defences most cities of the 1980s would be envious of.

    The Gorshkov or any other warship from any nation can be overwhelmed and will not survive a salvo attack of just 5-10 planes flying under the radar in a massive attack of a couple of dozens of anti-ship missiles at same time..

    The Gorshkov with its Poliment radar and Redut missile battery should be able to defeat up to 12 targets at one time on its own with missiles alone. Add more ships and you add more ready to launch missiles and more sensors to detect targets earlier.

    If you want to lose half your air force trying to take out a Frigate then you are welcome to try but I rather think you are under estimating the ships and over estimating the planes in this case.

    Also very vulnerable to mines or simply scuba divers in Underwater bikes ,carrying a bomb.

    In comparison aircraft are incredibly vulnerable to direct attack on airfields as shown in Sri Lanka.

    It will be far Better for Russia to focus instead its Resources and money on Modernizing its Airforce and increasing its size dramatically. .

    Size in self defeating, but modernising their Air Force is a very good idea and exactly what they are doing.

    So increasing its Industrial Capacity and getting a dozen of stealth Bomber like PAK-DA ,or better design a Hypersonic very high altitude Bomber that could fly 32km altitude or more and change course at will , will make very challenging to intercept them by any system of defense in the world .

    The plan is not to copy the US and build 20 flying wings. They will want at least 100-150 PAK DAs eventually to replace their Tu-95s, Tu-160s, and Tu-22M3s. They will not build 150 PAK DAs in the next ten years... they will build them over the next 40 years and use them to replace the older aircraft as they retire.

    I don't see the point of for example of having a ballistic Submarine if you can launch the same missile from Russia land on a mobile transport.

    Modern satellites can keep track of truck sized objects 24/7.

    SSBNs on the other hand can sail under the arctic ice sheet while there is one and no satellite can track it.

    Instead of making very vulnerable warships ,that are very slow ,takes days if not weeks to deploy them for the desired place of conflict..

    Sometimes it benefits the world when politicians are forced to wait a few days before they can launch missile strikes on their enemies...

    Much better to replace the navy with a power modern Air force that could reach any place in a couple of hours.

    The primary job of the Russian navy is coastal defence and anti poaching anti smuggling anti drug running operations... many of which include the use of air power but few of which could be handled by air power alone.

    Also creating military Airbases in zones of potential future conflict that they have interest will significantly decrease the need for very long range bombers or even the need for aircraft carriers.Which is another mistake. Having Military Airports in Nations like Egypt ,Syria , IRAN persian Gulf (close to Saudi Arabia) ,Venezuela , Vietnam.. Will Dramatically Increase Russia projection capabilities and be in any part of the world withing 2 hours. ,without the need build a very expensive very vulnerable navy ,with a cheap plane like a Tu-22 armed with hypersonic nuclear or conventional missiles.

    A single aircraft carrier offers the same flexibility as a base in all those places, yet there is no chance of an election taking place where Russian aircraft are asked to leave the carrier.

    Having Russian bases in all those regions would be good and help improve relations with those countries... but they aren't going to happen overnight.

    So for example Russia cancel any new submarine.or Big warship and focus all its resources in building a massive Airforce of tactical stealth bombers by building a stealth version of Tu-22 and TU-160 and building a hypersonic Pak-DA.

    A hypersonic PAK DA would likely cost more than a decent navy... there is a reason the US retired the SR-71 with its exotic design and it is only a Mach 3.5 aircraft... a Mach 5 aircraft is more than just a new engine.



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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:15 am

    Not sure what to make out of it but an Interesting Interview indeed .....Vicktor , TR1

    What should be our fleet
    Interview with chairman of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation Defence Admiral Vladimir Komoyedov in the past - the commander of the Black Sea Fleet.

    http://vpk-news.ru/articles/18748

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:26 am

    Some fairy tale numbers, I guess a man can dream.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:36 pm

     thumbsup 


    Russian naval support fleet to be replenished with 16 new ships in 2014

    “The Russian Navy will be replenished with new sea-going and harbor tugboats, port-servicing vessels, logistic support ships, armament support ships, communication motorboats and target ships,” the press service reported.
    The ministry reported that the country’s Navy plans to purchase 96 ships by 2020 under the development concept of naval support fleet.

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    Russian Navy: Status & News

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:18 pm

    Isnt 96 ships low number if you include sea-going and harbor tugboats, port-servicing vessels, logistic support ships, armament support ships, communication motorboats and target ships ?

    -------

    http://www.russiadefence.net/viewtopic.forum?t=2973

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    Russian Navy: Status & News

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:33 pm

    Austin wrote:Isnt 96 ships low number if you include sea-going and harbor tugboats, port-servicing vessels, logistic support ships, armament support ships, communication motorboats and target ships ?

    No, it's a lot. It is 16 ships every year, which given that an average ship has 30 years live span at least, makes for some 500 ships.
    This is almost Soviet Union levels in anything but average tonnage. Is not a world beating performance but is a great restoration of naval production.
    I guess it is more than what USA produces in the same time. Rome wasn't build in a day as they say.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:00 am

    Good photo, Orel and Smolensk @ Zvezdochka.

    http://www.star.ru/data/images/2014_01/orel_and_smolensk.jpg


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:10 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Austin wrote:Isnt 96 ships low number if you include sea-going and harbor tugboats, port-servicing vessels, logistic support ships, armament support ships, communication motorboats and target ships ?

    No, it's a lot. It is 16 ships every year, which given that an average ship has 30 years live span at least, makes for some 500 ships.
    This is almost Soviet Union levels in anything but average tonnage. Is not a world beating performance but is a great restoration of naval production.
    I guess it is more than what USA produces in the same time. Rome wasn't build in a day as they say.

    But mind you these are 16 ships of all types and not 16 capital ships .....so even a Tug is considered as new ship ..... what is more interesting would be how much of 96 will be capital ships which is Destroyers , Frigates , Corvettes

    Support vessel is important if its big capital ships like LPD Mistral

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:17 am

    Austin wrote:But mind you these are 16 ships of all types and not 16 capital ships .....so even a Tug is considered as new ship  ..... what is more interesting would be how much of 96 will be capital ships which is Destroyers , Frigates , Corvettes

    Support vessel is important if its big capital ships like LPD Mistral  

    Thos 96 ships you are talking about from the link are only SUPPORT ships.

    The Defense Ministry reported that the country’s Navy plans to purchase 96 ships by 2020 under the development concept of naval support fleet

    Dont mix that with intention of the Russian Navy to acquire 90-100 fighting ships by 2020.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:32 am

    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:But mind you these are 16 ships of all types and not 16 capital ships .....so even a Tug is considered as new ship  ..... what is more interesting would be how much of 96 will be capital ships which is Destroyers , Frigates , Corvettes

    Support vessel is important if its big capital ships like LPD Mistral  

    Thos 96 ships you are talking about from the link are only SUPPORT ships.

    The Defense Ministry reported that the country’s Navy plans to purchase 96 ships by 2020 under the development concept of naval support fleet

    Dont mix that with intention of the Russian Navy to acquire 90-100 fighting ships by 2020.

    Yeah that's what I had in mind. About 95 fighting ships.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #2

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:54 am

    Well Thanks , Lets see how much of the 95 Fighting ships and 96 support vessel target they can meet , we are talking around ~ 190 ships by 2020  Shocked 

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