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    Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

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    KomissarBojanchev
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    Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:32 pm

    The SM-2-6 standard is the most powerful AD weapon almost all NATO standard warships have and they carry hundreds of them which have high performance and excellent range(not to mention AS capability as well) But I'm wondering how do russian AshMs fare against it. Being subsonic I'm assuming the Kh-35 and subsonic klub have very little chance to evade these SAMs even if they can do some maneuvers while while the onyx while supersonic is still too slow and unmaneuverable(I may be wrong about that) to evade a SAM going at Mach 4+ and able engage targets on sea level over horizone. Same problems have P-1000 and P-700(Correct me if I'm wrong).

    So is there a way to hit a ships that has SM-2s or SM-6s without having to waste 100+ AshMs attack  for it?

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:29 am

    Sunburn during the 1980s was a definite threat to US ships... SM-2 couldn't hit targets flying below 7m above the water so it couldn't stop SS-N-22s.

    The main issue with AEGIS class cruisers is the number of directors they are fitted with... most have 2-3, so missile number 4-5 has a really good chance of getting through. Just because AEGIS has hundreds of SAMs doesn't mean it can launch them all at once and guide them all.

    During the 80s when a US AEGIS class cruiser shot down an Iranian airbus there was a film crew on board during the engagement and it was clear that they had a malfunction with their SM-2 and it took a minute and a half before they actually finally fired.

    If that had been a Soviet attack they would have been dead.

    BTW the mach 4+ speed of SM-2 comes from its flight profile... if it is being directed at a low flying target close to the ship it will not reach that sort of speed.

    The faster an object flys the further ahead you have to aim to intercept it, and the more g forces are needed to perform a given turn.A Klub missile coming in at 800km/h till it gets to the horizon and then launching a Mach 2.9 "warhead" means that if the warhead is 1km from the ship the interceptor will likely hit the ship.

    Of course large Soviet and Russian anti ship missiles are reported to have a range of defence penetration equipment including chaff and flare dispensors and jammers... and indeed armour plate.

    The British didn't think they would lose any ships in the Falklands war because the Sea Wolf and Sea Dart were excellent weapons... and they certainly were.


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:15 am

    Very interesting information that fanboys omit thumbsup But I've heard the newer SM-6 can destroy any target above sea level(0m+) and its AWACS guided. Do you think there is a way of evading these?

    Whats the situation on the kh-22 and kh-15? Are they supersonic throughout their trip? How close to the target do they start to dive at mach 4-5?
    Can the SM-2 engage easily targets moving at 25000m and 40000m respectively?

    I think that in current times of layered ADS subsonic missiles are useless. I'm pretty sure a klub would get shot down long before releasing its payload(not to mention the fully subsonic club with 400kg warhead). Same with the kh-35.

    Does the P-700 and P-1000 stay supersonic at mach 2,5-8 throughout its flightime?

    Most people think of the aegis as some kind superpower weapon that is the silver bullet to all of the missiles the soviets could muster. Fanboys would make " our f*cking aegis will shoot down all of your soviet missiles and our F-14s would shoot down all your missile trucks from 300miles away while our AWACS would detect you from 500 miles away so keep on dreaming rus" type comments.

    Off Topic I once saw a particularly idiotic comment that said the only ways to destroy a CBG you would need a submarine or drop a dumb bomb from high altitude

    Also one person said that in a possible attack on a CBG the soviets would bombard it with dumb bombs. When someone pointed out the silliness of his statement that other guy said "then why did soviet bombers always fly high above our CBG" or a statement of similar sort

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:05 am

    But I've heard the newer SM-6 can destroy any target above sea level(0m+) and its AWACS guided. Do you think there is a way of evading these?

    I would say shoot down the AWACS...

    Whats the situation on the kh-22 and kh-15? Are they supersonic throughout their trip? How close to the target do they start to dive at mach 4-5?
    Can the SM-2 engage easily targets moving at 25000m and 40000m respectively?

    The Kh-22M has two rocket chambers and operates on the lower power chamber to climb and fly to the target area and then lights up the high power rocket nozzle and accelerates to top speed when it approaches the target area.

    The Kh-15 is a solid rocket fuelled weapon that would fly at high speed all the way, but there is some question as to whether an anti ship model actually entered service or not.

    The Kh-15 was primarily a defence penetration weapon that dives at mach 5 on enemy radar and communication sites and would be used by either strategic bombers to take out major SAM or radar sites or major airfields in its path, or by the Tu-22M3 on a similar theatre mission into europe. The standard warhead would be nuclear.

    I think that in current times of layered ADS subsonic missiles are useless. I'm pretty sure a klub would get shot down long before releasing its payload(not to mention the fully subsonic club with 400kg warhead). Same with the kh-35.

    So what you are saying is that western anti ship capability is currently impotent?

    The problem with paper warfare is that it excludes the real world from the calculations.

    The Sheffield was destroyed by an exocet missile. If we had discussed this in 1981 you would have said that the British have Exocet missiles in their arsenal and are very familiar with them and there was no way an exocet missile would penetrate British naval air defences in this day and age... Seawolf can intercept individual 114mm artillery shells... and exocet would be dead meat.

    Does the P-700 and P-1000 stay supersonic at mach 2,5-8 throughout its flightime?

    At altitude... and mach 2.5 is a good approximation of their speed. Brahmos II will increase this speed to mach 5-7, but will also be at high altitude.

    Most people think of the aegis as some kind superpower weapon that is the silver bullet to all of the missiles the soviets could muster. Fanboys would make " our f*cking aegis will shoot down all of your soviet missiles and our F-14s would shoot down all your missile trucks from 300miles away while our AWACS would detect you from 500 miles away so keep on dreaming rus" type comments.

    Yes, the US ships combine the magic properties of being able to see everything but at the same time be invisible and stealthy... Funny thing is that the Russians are spending money on their satellite network... Twisted Evil

    BTW F-14s and Phoenix missiles cannot engage targets over a wide field of regard, so it could engage high targets or low targets but not both at the same time. Also I rather doubt its performance against high speed targets flying at 25,000m like Kh-22M missiles...

    Also one person said that in a possible attack on a CBG the soviets would bombard it with dumb bombs. When someone pointed out the silliness of his statement that other guy said "then why did soviet bombers always fly high above our CBG" or a statement of similar sort

    Hahaha... Soviet "bombers" attack CBGs were not carrying bombs and would not fly within bombing range anyway.

    Still I guess the Kh-22M and other missiles could be considered bombs when used in steep dives on carriers in the final stage of their attacks.

    Imagine how effective the SM-6 will be in the middle of a storm in the north atlantic?

    The advantage of being the attacker is that you get to choose when and where.

    Of course one of the more interesting ideas I have had is a variation of the container cruise missile idea the Russians developed. Tens of thousands of container ships lose containers in storms and because of their weight and the trapped air inside them they tend to float a few metres below the surface... a serious danger to shipping.

    Imagine replacing that land attack cruise missile with an anti ship cruise missile... and purposely dropping hundreds into the water ahead of a CBG you know is sailing to intervene somewhere. These missiles are not 300km export missiles, these can be domestic 1,500/2,500km range weapons so with these floating about when a satellite passes overhead it can send an encrypted signal to a large expanse of open water. That signal could be a simple burst transmission identifying the approaching ships, their speed and course. The containers themselves can be left to float with Glonass receivers telling them where they are and from that they can plot an interception course. The satellite comes over again about an hour and a half later with information about an approaching storm and the containers... using local time to determine night time can launch a missile every 20 minutes on the task force. In fact it could vary between 10 minutes and an hour at random.

    Imagine the situation for the captain of that task force... unknown source of threat. No enemy platforms to target or engage. Your forces on their toes continuously because they don't know if they have 5 minutes or 2 hours before the next attack. The attacks seem to come from random places in the open ocean without warning, ranging from a few hundred kms away to a thousand... that is a big area of water. Soon attacks start coming from behind as well.

    Even if every single incoming missile is dealt with... what about the logistics tail that is following you?

    You send out helos with dipping sonar to investigate the launch sites but there is nothing there. Submarines detect the launch noises followed hours later by an impact noise several kms below on the sea bed.

    What sort of state will that CBG arrive on station in?

    Imagine the stress and panic.

    Eventually a few containers are detected as the carrier group pass by a few... which have not been fitted with cruise missiles... but Shkval torpedoes...


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  Hachimoto on Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:10 pm

    Onyx :


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  gaurav on Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:27 pm

    Onyx :
    Hachimoto good one.. thumbsup 
    Ultimate rocket show.
    There are some points to consider.

    1. Iskander now has some competitors like UKSK caliber and also Onyx modified in to canisters.
      The truck vehicle hiding the missiles in the box like fashion.

    2. Other things are like Klub
      Novator 3M54 in the canisterised version hav subsonic speed  in majority part of its flight.
      The onys is supersonic throught its flight path.The newset Calibur with 2600 kms supersonic flight range,
      is still being tested due to the delay of the Pr 885 and other warships.Its designation is still secret.


    3. The Iskander-M has been removed from export and it now available only for Russian units for next 2-3 years.

    4,The onyx and Iskander vehisles are almost similar in their outer looks.
    Someting similar to MZKT-79221 truck from Belarus.

    5.Yakhont, Onyx missiles are still developed from 1970 technology.There is one thing the during the flight the
     Onyx missiles fly at very low altitude of 50-100 meteres from Ground level.
     The radar systems amd seekers have been upgraded
     to allow manueveres and flight paths above land , suburban, city and all terrain following. On th contrary
    Iskander flight paths are hypersonic and its trajectory and manuevers are still classified


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:46 pm

    gaurav wrote:
    Onyx :
    Hachimoto good one.. thumbsup 
    Ultimate rocket show.
    There are some points to consider.

    1. Iskander now has some competitors like UKSK caliber and also Onyx modified in to canisters.
      The truck vehicle hiding the missiles in the box like fashion.

    2. Other things are like Klub
      Novator 3M54 in the canisterised version hav subsonic speed  in majority part of its flight.
      The onys is supersonic throught its flight path.The newset Calibur with 2600 kms supersonic flight range,
      is still being tested due to the delay of the Pr 885 and other warships.Its designation is still secret.


    3. The Iskander-M has been removed from export and it now available only for Russian units for next 2-3 years.

    4,The onyx and Iskander vehisles are almost similar in their outer looks.
    Someting similar to MZKT-79221 truck from Belarus.

    5.Yakhont, Onyx missiles are still developed from 1970 technology.There is one thing the during the flight the
     Onyx missiles fly at very low altitude of 50-100 meteres from Ground level.
     The radar systems amd seekers have been upgraded
     to allow manueveres and flight paths above land , suburban, city and all terrain following. On th contrary
    Iskander flight paths are hypersonic and its trajectory and manuevers are still classified

    which ships/submarines will take Onyx??

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  gaurav on Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:22 pm

    I dont think any Russian ships /subs will have Onyx.
    The yakhont/Onyx is very old system and is not suited to any needs of Russian navy.
    The more modern corvettes are going for Calibre supersonic missile.
    Other anit ship mssiles the Russian Navy is not interested in.
    Remember that Calibre system is used in the first Project 885 severodvinsk submarine.

    But also remember that Calibre is not deployed "across the board" in Russian naval Doctrine
    The  reason yu guessed it .
    Its performance is only suited for Russian corvettes and not for
    strategic and strike systems of Pr 885M or Russian destroyers.

    Modern 21st century antiship missiles of Russian navy are very classified in nature.
    UKSK FAMILY missiles are
    stop gap measures in Russian naval doctrines.

    The russian navy is more interest in Moskit 3M82 kind of missiles for their short reaction attack profiles.
    Videos of Moskit launch from russian black/other fleet are not available at all.


    Advantages of Calibre family.
    Long range more than 2500 kms
    Stealth mode of flight path
    Their heat signature is far less than yakhont/onys systems.They are based on new modern solid fuel ramjet
    but their performance marks/including radar control systems are far below Russian naval requirements.

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:48 am

    The UKSK launcher is a unified launch system that can launch Onyx, Yakhont, Brahmos, Kalibr, and the Klub family of missiles.

    The actual missiles loaded in those tubes depends on what the ship is expected to do on its mission.

    The Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos is basically the replacement for the Moskit/SS-N-22 Sunburn and also the Vulcan/Granit and in the domestic version (Onyx) has a range of between 500km and 700km at Mach 2.5-3.

    It will likely be replaced by the Brahmos II/ Zirconium Hypersonic missile with the ramjet propulsion replaced with a scramjet resulting in a speed increase likely to mach 7 or so.

    The Kalibr/Klub system with long range cruise missiles for land attack and anti ship use will also be used as not every target needs very high speed.

    Long and very long range weapons will be very useful even to Russian Corvettes as the information system includes satellite based detection systems and the data collection and sharing system means every vessel from ship to sub has a picture of the sea surface, beneath the surface and the airspace above it.

    A corvette doesn't need to detect an enemy ship with its own radar to launch a long range missile attack upon it.


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  gaurav on Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:52 am


    The Kalibr/Klub system with long range cruise missiles for land attack and anti ship use will also be used as not every target needs very high speed.
    I believe Klub is subsonic missile.It only has a terminal warhead which flies at high supersonic speed for only 30-40 kms max.
    The remaining 250 kms it covers at only 800 KM/hour speed.(Tmahawk speed)
    The designation which I am talking about is 3M-54E Novator.Basically it is a subsonic missile.

    The kalibre is high supersonic throughtout its trajectory.That is it flies thousands of kms upto 2500 KMs in high supersonic mode.
    It may be 1 km/sec or 2.8 mach.
    Thats why there is some confsuion as what constitues klub or Kalibre.

    Kalibre is presently not given fro export.It s range is beyond MTCR regulations.

    The 3M-80 MOSKIT is high supersonic , quick  reaction missile.It is now deployed in all Russian missile ships whether small or big.

    The brahmos is supersonic from launch although it is not deployed in Russian warships.It si basically  apart of
    coastal missile batteries I guess "Bastion" .That is the deployment scenario of Brahmos nothing else.
    Its speed is equalor slighlty less than moskit but similar.It flies at 2.5 Mch from word go.

    Brahmos is universally deployed in Indian systems from ships , land to air.Various modifications are taking shape.

    The other thing is UKSK is now basically promoted as export launcher because Russian Navy is NOT showing interest in it.
    The reasons have been discussed here.

    i THINK uksk is alllowed to be deployed only from Pr 885 first submarine but it may be deployed in various corvettes under construction now.

    But UKSK is a viable solution for many export customers in South Asia.

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    Anti-ship missiles

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:32 pm


    I believe Klub is subsonic missile.It only has a terminal warhead which flies at high supersonic speed for only 30-40 kms max.
    A bit of history is needed... in the 1980s the Soviets had two subsonic nuclear armed cruise missiles... one was the Kh-55 and Kh-55SM land attack cruise missile used by the Russian air force... the latter with extended range using saddle fuel tanks to extend range.

    The other was the SS-N-21 Granat, which was a different missile but basically of the same performance and use... subsonic all the way with accuracy of about 200-250m CEP which meant nuclear warhead was manditory.

    During the 1990s they improved guidance and other parameters and by 2000 they were testing the Kh-101 and Kh-102 which were much longer ranged (5,000km) and much more accurate (less than 20m CEP) which allowed the two models... one nuclear armed and one conventionally armed.

    The terminal guidance systems were accurate enough to allow conventional payloads to be effectively used so the guidance system was applied to the older Kh-55 to create the Kh-555 conventional cruise missile.

    In the case of the naval missile the problems were multiplied because subsonic all the way just wouldn't cut it any more so they adapted the design of a failed cruise missile called Alpha that was supposed to fly most of the way at subsonic speed and then fly the last few hundred kms at high altitude at high speed... this was genius because a missile able to fly thousands of kms at supersonic speeds would be enormous... the size of a fighter aircraft or bigger. By having a subsonic carrier and supersonic terminal phase it was like the missile was an aircraft and the payload was a missile on that aircraft... but that aircraft could be launched from a sub or ship.

    The result was Kalibr... the domestic name for the export Klub.

    Kalibr in the subsonic all the way version is just an upgraded Granat long range subsonic cruise missile (not to be confused with the 7 ton supersonic Granit), the Kalibr with the mach 2.9 terminal model is also Kalibr, and both have much longer flight ranges than their export Klub models.

    The subsonic Kalibr likely has a flight range of 2,500km, while the supersonic model probably flys 1,350km or so at subsonic speeds with the last 100-150km at supersonic speeds, or at low level the last 50km at supersonic speeds.

    Klub is the same family of weapons but with flight range severely reduced to meet export restrictions.

    There are also two other missiles in the family... both ballistic rockets that deliver torpedoes at mach 2.5 to distant submarines... one is for sub launch and the other is for surface ship launch.

    The kalibre is high supersonic throughtout its trajectory.That is it flies thousands of kms upto 2500 KMs in high supersonic mode.
    It may be 1 km/sec or 2.8 mach.
    Thats why there is some confsuion as what constitues klub or Kalibre.

    Kalibre is presently not given fro export.It s range is beyond MTCR regulations.
    What propulsion allows this missile to fly thousands of kms at mach 3?

    Granit weighs 7 tons and is rather large and can only manage about 600km at mach 2.5...

    The 3M-80 MOSKIT is high supersonic , quick reaction missile.It is now deployed in all Russian missile ships whether small or big.
    No it isn't deployed widely. It was on the Sovremmeny class destroyers and a few light patrol missile boats. In its original version its range was 120km, though its max height was 300m and for the rest of the flight it flew at less than 7m above the water. In the improved upgraded model it had a range of about 300km. The original model weighed about 4.5 tons.

    It is being replaced by Onyx.

    The other thing is UKSK is now basically promoted as export launcher because Russian Navy is NOT showing interest in it.
    The reasons have been discussed here.
    Name one new Russian surface ship without UKSK.

    All the Corvettes and Frigates will have them and the destroyers too.

    It is part of the upgrade for the Kirov class ships with the 20 vertical Granit launchers being replaced with 10 UKSK launcher bins (ie 80 tubes).

    The Oscar class vessels are having their Granit tubes refitted for UKSK tubes, and I suspect the Slava upgrade will result in the Vulkan tubes being removed and replaced with angled UKSK launchers.

    i THINK uksk is alllowed to be deployed only from Pr 885 first submarine but it may be deployed in various corvettes under construction now.
    Onyx outperforms Moskit in every parameter, Granit is out of production, Vulkan is not standard and old... the only option is UKSK launcher bins.

    For now with Kalibr and Onyx, but later to add the Zirconium hypersonic missile.

    UKSK is being exported because it is the only new cruise missile launcher they will have in service soon.


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    Anti Ship Missiles damage

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:45 pm

    Due my lack of interest in navy so far and the interesst of more conventional weaponary i need to know what kind of ASM is designed to have a high kill probability against specific vessels tonnage.

    For Example KH-25MT/MTP can be used against ships with 90+ kg HE warhead how sufficient is this rather small amount of explosive to destroy a specific vessel and how big would that vessel be max. to be considered destroyed or inoperational after a hit?

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:58 pm

    For Example KH-25MT/MTP can be used against ships with 90+ kg HE warhead how sufficient is this rather small amount of explosive to destroy a specific vessel and how big would that vessel be max. to be considered destroyed or inoperational after a hit?

    Such a small missile would be effective against small vessels only.

    A hit to the bridge or engine room or indeed an ammo magazine could be effective on a larger vessel, but for the most part most dedicated anti ship missiles have warheads twice this size or bigger (ie the kh-31 has a similar warhead but Kh-35 has a 145kg warhead).

    A delay fuse will make the warhead rather more effective as an explosion inside a ship is far more effective than one outside the ship.

    With precise targeting such a small missile could be effective at disabling the steering gear of even very large vessels.

    It would be a useful weapon for use against pirate ships where the goal is to stop the vessel rather than obliterate it.

    ATAKA missiles with a tiny 5kg warhead are used for similar missions against light fishing boats.

    The British Sea Skua was considered a surprising success during the Falklands war as it was light enough to be carried by helicopter in reasonable numbers and it had only a 50kg warhead.

    In conclusion... would be effective against very light ships, would be able to be carried by most Russian naval helicopters in greater numbers than larger heavier dedicated anti ship missiles like Kh-31 and Kh-35.


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:22 am

    For Anti-ship missile duty the KH-35E was reported to be introduced to the Ka-52K shipbased versions use, the wardhead is 145 kg, some versions of KH-25MT have TV guidance and i think there are also delayed impact fuzes for this missile, too.

    For the entire ASM capability only KH-25ML/MPU and KH-35E have so far been stated to be used on Ka-52.
    The homepage of kvrt.ru states the X-29E with a warhead of 320 kg can be used against vessels with 10.000t displacement so a 145 kg warhead would be enough to destroy only 5000t displacement ship, about that figure?
    Just let's assume the 145kg would be sufficient enough for ca. 5000t displacement vessels even though the most small vessels to the biggest which would be still in the figure would be LST's are around 200-1500t and for LST's 4200t++ displacement. So it's a rather bright spectrum of small vessels it is considered to be effective against.

    Other ASM's which are in the figures of size and weight same as KH-25 and Kh-35 would be KH-31 and Kh-38 which could be both used on helicopters, while Kh-38 was already reported to be used with Ka-27's.

    Most ASM's use active radar guidance and are not controllable, let's say a TV guided missile with a smaller warhead of 140 kg could be still effective against large ships when it is aimed by the operator in one of 3 vital points making it mobility, command bridge or just the primary weapons as the target. This option sounds rather unlikely but would still have a higher effect than same missile with radar guidance against same ship.

    The other question would be the current russian ASM's are for the most part between 300 and 450 kg warheads with some older and exceptional weapons like R-700 Granit with 750 kg warhead. I think i am not completley wrong when i say that Kalibr,Yakhont,Moskit were suppossed to be used against every naval target above sea, right? I mean even the Nimitz Class with its 100.000+ t displacement would be main target of this ASM's and would be sufficient to destroy it if intented to be used as against every target?


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:48 am

    Werewolf wrote:For Anti-ship missile duty the KH-35E was reported to be introduced to the Ka-52K shipbased versions use, the wardhead is 145 kg, some versions of KH-25MT have TV guidance and i think there are also delayed impact fuzes for this missile, too.

    For the entire ASM capability only KH-25ML/MPU and KH-35E have so far been stated to be used on Ka-52.
    The homepage of kvrt.ru states the X-29E with a warhead of 320 kg can be used against vessels with 10.000t displacement so a 145 kg warhead would be enough to destroy only 5000t displacement ship, about that figure?
    Just let's assume the 145kg would be sufficient enough for ca. 5000t displacement vessels even though the most small vessels to the biggest which would be still in the figure would be LST's are around 200-1500t and for LST's 4200t++ displacement. So it's a rather bright spectrum of small vessels it is considered to be effective against.

    Other ASM's which are in the figures of size and weight same as KH-25 and Kh-35 would be KH-31 and Kh-38 which could be both used on helicopters, while Kh-38 was already reported to be used with Ka-27's.

    Most ASM's use active radar guidance and are not controllable, let's say a TV guided missile with a smaller warhead of 140 kg could be still effective against large ships when it is aimed by the operator in one of 3 vital points making it mobility, command bridge or just the primary weapons as the target. This option sounds rather unlikely but would still have a higher effect than same missile with radar guidance against same ship.

    The other question would be the current russian ASM's are for the most part between 300 and 450 kg warheads with some older and exceptional weapons like R-700 Granit with 750 kg warhead. I think i am not completley wrong when i say that Kalibr,Yakhont,Moskit were suppossed to be used against every naval target above sea, right? I mean even the Nimitz Class with its 100.000+ t displacement would be main target of this ASM's and would be sufficient to destroy it if intented to be used as against every target?


    Against the Nimitz class a nuclear payload will probably be used and that will definately destroy any ship.

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:02 am

    Most probably they will use a nuclear warhead since it was actually designed against navy formations of several ships with a payload of 100+ kt nuclear warhead, but i was asking about normal HE penetration warheads if Moskit for example is intented to be used against such vessels as the Nimitz class or is 300- 450 kg warhead payloads not considered sufficient enough for such big vessels?

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:45 am

    You have to keep in mind that there are anti ship missiles and there are anti ship missiles.

    Older large Soviet missiles were often intended to destroy a ship... ie sink it.

    Smaller lighter western missiles were often designed for mission kills so the target could no longer perform its mission.

    That way you get Russian missiles with 750kg warheads... which needs a huge missile to deliver, and tiny western missiles.

    Often when a kill was needed more than one smaller missile would be used.

    The Moskit was specifically designed to take out AEGIS class cruisers by flying below their Standard SAM missile defences (ie below 7m) and fast enough to render their last line of defence (Phalanx) useless through high speed.

    the reality is that against a military ship or a civilian ship the real danger is fire... as shown in the Falklands conflict it was fires started by the missile impact and fuelled by the remaining fuel and warheads that destroyed the ships that sank.

    In terms of anti ship weapons the Kh-25 family would be ideal as an anti ship weapon... even including the anti radiation models which could be fired after the TV or IIR guided models to defeat any air defence systems that are turned on.

    BTW TV and IR models of Kh-25 were developed but they were not cheap so the Soviet and Russian military did not buy them.

    The domestic model of the Kh-38 will have a 250kg payload and a range of 80km with a variety of guidance options which should make it quite a deadly anti ship missile.

    the Kh-31 and Kh-35 are also ideal weapons.


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:13 am

    http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/675/797/



    520 kg in total weight and 40km distance the perfect ASM for helicopters and the payload is rather high could also be used against big ships unlike KH-25, with a promising result.

    I thank you all for this information and i've another question about the jamming resistance of such missiles, one of the important things after the bandwidth and frecuency modulation,frequency hopping is the fact how much power you can transfer to a jamming device which is by far greater than the power supply for the radar homing guidance systemes on such small missiles with what the jamming devices can get on ships. Where there any tests or any articles writing about that matter?

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:14 am

    With there tiny range compared to real ASMs any X-25 carrier would be destroyed by SM-2s long before it came in range.

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:16 am

    GarryB wrote:You have to keep in mind that there are anti ship missiles and there are anti ship missiles.

    Older large Soviet missiles were often intended to destroy a ship... ie sink it.

    Smaller lighter western missiles were often designed for mission kills so the target could no longer perform its mission.

    That way you get Russian missiles with 750kg warheads... which needs a huge missile to deliver, and tiny western missiles.

    Often when a kill was needed more than one smaller missile would be used.

    The Moskit was specifically designed to take out AEGIS class cruisers by flying below their Standard SAM missile defences (ie below 7m) and fast enough to render their last line of defence (Phalanx) useless through high speed.

    the reality is that against a military ship or a civilian ship the real danger is fire... as shown in the Falklands conflict it was fires started by the missile impact and fuelled by the remaining fuel and warheads that destroyed the ships that sank.

    In terms of anti ship weapons the Kh-25 family would be ideal as an anti ship weapon... even including the anti radiation models which could be fired after the TV or IIR guided models to defeat any air defence systems that are turned on.

    BTW TV and IR models of Kh-25 were developed but they were not cheap so the Soviet and Russian military did not buy them.

    The domestic model of the Kh-38 will have a 250kg payload and a range of 80km with a variety of guidance options which should make it quite a deadly anti ship missile.

    the Kh-31 and Kh-35 are also ideal weapons.
    Keep in mind that from the 1980s the SM-2 could be used as ASMs and they had the same range as the X-35 so with Mach 4 speed they would've been invincible to soviet AD, the only disadvantage being a small warhead. Can an anti-surface capability be done with the Buk and S-400?

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:28 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Keep in mind that from the 1980s the SM-2 could be used as ASMs and they had the same range as the X-35 so with Mach 4 speed they would've been invincible to soviet AD, the only disadvantage being a small warhead. Can an anti-surface capability be done with the Buk and S-400?
    I doubt that- these things just dont pack that much punch- cause like you said rel. small warheads. Tho ofc. swapping the conventional ones with nukes would be devastating in case of a direct hit or near miss.

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Wed May 20, 2015 1:33 pm

    Russia's Bal сoastal defense system to get 300-kilometer range missile — contractor

    The upgraded Bal сoastal defense system is likely to be equipped with the drone complex to be used as a target designation system

    MOSCOW, May 20. /TASS/. Russia's new Bal coastal missile system will receive an upgraded missile Kh-35E with a range of up to 300 kilometers, as well as drone target systems, Director General and chief designer of the Morinformsystema-Agat group of companies Georgy Antsev told TASS.

    According to open sources, the current range of the Bal system equipped with the Kh-35E missiles is 120 kilometers.

    "Essentially, everything is clear with Bal. The Tactical Missiles Corporation has upgraded the Kh-35E missile. It was created in the aviation version, it will also be used by ground forces and the navy. It has a good range - about 300 kilometers," Antsev said.

    According to him, since this is a long-range missile, the coastal missile system needs a new targeting system. "The upgraded Bal is likely to be equipped with the drone complex to be used as a target designation system. The work involves the Kamov company, which has designed a drone weighing about a ton. We have a partner - the Radar company, which is engaged in creating a drone complex weighing about 500 kilograms," Antsev said.

    He added that the Bal system had to be equipped with the underwater target designation. "We have underwater robotic equipment with good hydro-acoustics capable of working on the baseline and transmitting data to the shore," he said.

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Sun May 31, 2015 3:52 am

    Coastal missile system "Bal" in the Pacific Fleet

    Adopted from the 72th separate coast missile brigade coastal forces of the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Navy entered the mobile coastal anti-ship missile system 3K60 "Ball".

    72nd separate coast missile brigade stationed in Smolyaninovo (Shkotovsky region of Primorsky Krai, 45 km from Vladivostok) to the present time was armed with a mobile coastal antiship missile system 4K44B Redut (SSC-1 Sepal) and 4K51 "Rubezh".

    The complex was created to replace its aging onshore 4K51 "Rubezh" with P-15M missiles. The developer of the complex - the Moscow Machine-Building Design Bureau (now a part of the corporation "Tactical Missiles"). State tests of the complex were held in 2004, adopted in 2008.












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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:16 pm

    Russia to Deploy Anti-Ship Bastion Missile Complexes in Arctic in 2015

    Northern Fleet Commander Adm. Vladimir Korolev said that Russia’s Northern Fleet’s Coastal Forces will receive new Bastion anti-ship missile complexes in 2015.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Russia’s Northern Fleet’s Coastal Forces will receive new Bastion anti-ship missile complexes in 2015, Northern Fleet Commander Adm. Vladimir Korolev said Monday.

    “There will be a considerable renewing of equipment and armament for the coastal forces and this year Bastion coastal missile defenses will be received from production,” Korolev said.

    He added that S-400 missile complexes have already been deployed for the Northern Fleet’s anti-air defense, as well as some Pantsir-S systems in parts of the Arctic.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150601/1022796421.html#ixzz3bqawUOv2

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles: Discussion

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:20 am

    hmm an additional material :

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/267396243/Naval-Engineers-Journal-Volume-109-Issue-1-1997-J-F-McEachron-Subsonic-and-Supersonic-Antiship-Missiles-An-Effectiveness-and-Utility-Comparison

    Basically outlines consideration and design of anti ship missile. This seems explain well why US stick with Harpoon for so long and replace it with another subsonic LRASM-A and Kongsberg NSM.

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