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    Sino-Russian relations:

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    Pervius
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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Pervius on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:45 pm

    """The problem is that now the US has created a monster in the Chinese and only now are they realising they have no real control of that monster."""

    The US has 100% control of China. They've had many decades to get people in there and have poured Trillions into that country. If some Chinese Officer is plotting anything against the US, the US knows all about it and is taking actions against that officer to prevent it.

    China isn't a sovereign country. It can't make it's own decisions on anything.

    www.x-rates.com/d/CNY/USD/graph120.html

    Their own currency is being used against them right now to straighten them up. US tightens its belt and doesn't give money/jobs to it's own people so they can buy Chinese crap....all tools to control the Chinese.

    They play ball or they will have a problem dealing with their people.

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:01 am

    You are saying the rape victim controls the rapist... the rape victim has what the rapist wants.

    The US has no control over China.

    China shoots down one of its own satellites during tests of a new weapon system.

    Who could such a thing be directed at?

    Who depends on satellites?

    The US.

    At the time it was described as a reckless act that will only increase the debris problems in orbit.

    A few months later the US shot down a satellite of their own as a demonstration they could do the same.

    Two demonstrations of power... you don't get that between dominator and victim because the victim has no power.

    The US is still whining that the Chinese currency is too low and needs to be adjusted to suit the US.

    The Chinese are refusing to change the value of their currency.

    US companies producing products and investing in China is not US government policy. It is greedy US companies getting out of a lot of taxes and saving money on wages and protecting themselves from being sued by injured workers in the US by making stuff in other countries. They have done it for decades.

    The reality is that the US needs China more than China needs the US.

    If the US leaves China China has enough factories and know how to continue making a lot of material that will sell and the offer of big money will attract the right individuals to go there and continue to improve and develop Chinas industries.

    China has a huge number of problems, but the fear that the US will isolate them is now very unlikely.

    The model used to work so that the western countries would go into a very poor country and pay people $5 a week to work long hours with none of the social protections western workers get. If they die or quit then there are plenty to take their place.

    Gradually however standards improve with the influx of western money and wages and conditions improve and eventually they start getting expensive and the western "investers" move on. They find another poor country where they can bribe officials and get cheap local labour. As China shows it doesn't matter if the locals are in a commie country or a dictatorship. It is better that it is not a democracy with a free press because poor working conditions and low pay is what they want.
    When the western businesses leave the locals can do a few things. They can go back to where they were... which no one wants. They can start up the factories again and produce their own stuff, which most do. They don't have the international connections or market access that the big western companies have but they are competing on the black market with the next poor country with their new factories making largely the same products.
    Sometimes that poor or wrecked country does something more. South Korea and Japan are two very good examples of countries that went from cheap crap to quality products, but both had the support, or at least didn't have the US trying to stop them.

    The point is that when Western companies went in to poor countries these countries needed outside money to grow and that money came from the west which tended to make money on the growth and could use the money lending as a political control on that country in the UN etc. China doesn't need western money... it needs open access to resources and energy.

    Which country offers the best solution for China?

    Russia or the US?
    The US has high tech but resources and energy to help China grow is lacking a little because they want resources and energy for themselves.
    Russia has plenty of resources and energy but could use more money...

    China is not stupid though and will not simply jump into Russias arms because it is generally more productive to play potential allies against each other to get the best deals.

    Austin
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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:47 am

    Most Indians i have come across dont feel comfortable Russia coming closer to China and supplying them with arms.

    But i doubt the Russian China relation is targetted at India , it has more to do with US and the recent US Pivot towards Asia , economic relations are driven by Economics , Russia has Gas and Oil , China has money and is hungry for both ......so its a win win deal for both.

    I completely agree we dont need a World with US/NATO and ROW but we need a more balanced world BRICS and other country have equal stake.

    I think with the recent down turn economically for EU and US with debt being more than GDP for US and growing , US power is on the wane .....while China would grow and so with Russia , India and Brazil

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Regular on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:04 pm

    Russia is getting closer with China is just business. If India is worried about it then they could do better offer to Russians. But instead India is sourcing equipment from various countries. Logistical nightmare < need of being independent

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:21 pm

    Austin wrote:Most Indians i have come across dont feel comfortable Russia coming closer to China and supplying them with arms.

    Thats the fear US will search to exploit hopping to bring India to its side. Afterwards "coalition of the willing" Very Happy can be

    pushed in the war, US will not care because its population, cities, industry etc is on the other side of the world but will once

    the fog of war clears happily send its firms to rebuild what has been destroyed and provide loans for as much as they need Very Happy

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    RUSS-CHINA GAS and ARCTIC DEALS SENT COLD SHIVERS DOWN THE SPINE OF WEST.

    Post  gaurav on Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:41 pm

    RUSSIA and CHINA HAVE SHOWN THE WORLD THAT IF GOOD INTENTIONS ABOUND THEN they can really take on the might of neo- western ARROGANCE.

    NO WONDER that in CNN, FOX and BBC not A SINGLE REPORT OF CHINESE PRESIDENT's(Xi-Jinpin) 3-DAY VISIT has been reported.
    INDIAN media asusual shivering(VERY HIGH FREQUENCY shivering both Congress and BJP) not a single word spoken.


    Due to this forum ( cheers )I here by bring forth some good pictures of the event. It was the most important
    event of the world as people oppresed by the western(as well as Asian Arrogance Question ) look forward to STRATEGIC BALANCE in the world(IN FORM RUSSIA CHINA STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP) .

    NOW why GOOD INTENTIONS ..Well both countries now understand that China will gradually come to Russia level in Defense industry.

    Well what is at the core of Strategic partnership ..Superpower CHINA will BE PAYING 200B/YEAR from 2018 from GAS and oil deliveries.Gas delivery could cross 60billion cubic mtrs/year.. Exclamation attack

    And this not taking into account another 200busd in mutual investments in OIL DRILLING RIGS, TRAINS, Heavy Engineering,ARCTIC SHELFS.. it could be arounf 300-400B USD.

    Who will now care about 2-3 Billion usd sukhoi deals.. not wrong meanings meant ..sorry.. Smile Cool


    But if these deals of POWER OF SIBERIA GAS PIPELINES, MASSIVE investments in OIL DRILLING RIGS, Massive investments in Barents,
    Kara , Pechora shelfs ,Artic shelfs GOES THROUGH then it will be a blow in the face of WESTERN conspiracy to take advantge of RUSS-CHINA rivalry.


    I thought there was a GAG ORDER imposed IN U.S ON REPORTING THIS VISIT.
    Who said that "Turbulence affects all.. cheers "
    VIBRATION NOT GOOD FOR HEALTH..! ha ha ha..


    Gazprom, CNPC sign memorandum on eastern route pipeline gas supplies to China (Part 2)

    MOSCOW. March 22 (Interfax) - Gazprom (RTS: GAZP) CEO Alexei Miller and CNPC chief Zhou Jiping signed a memorandum in Moscow on Friday on the project to deliver Russian pipeline gas to China on the so-called eastern route, an Interfax correspondent reported.

    The signing ceremony took place in the Kremlin in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping.

    The memorandum sets out the main parameters of the contract, clearing the way for an agreement on price.

    The contract will be for 30 years, Gazprom said. "The document that was signed is strategic and long-term in nature,
    defines the parameters for deliveries of Russian gas to China on the eastern route and lays the groundwork for a 30-year
    gas delivery contract."

    Plans are to sign the contract before the end of the year.

    The Power of Siberia pipeline will link the Chayanda field in Yakutia to Vladivostok, where LNG capacity is to be built.
    There is already a pipeline from Sakhalin to Vladivostok with capacity to ship 6 billion cubic meters of gas a year,
    which will subsequently be upgraded to 30 bcm a year. Later the Power of Siberia pipeline will be extended to the
    Kovykta field in Irkutsk region.

    Gazprom has been negotiating deliveries of Russian gas to China for almost 10 years. It initially planned to deliver gas to China on the western route: 30 bcm a year from Western Siberia on the Altai pipeline for delivery to China's west. But the demand for gas in that part of China was not as great as on its east coast; consequently, China had little desire to pay European-style prices for the gas.

    Gazprom decided not to negotiate deliveries on the eastern route (38 bcm a year) until deliveries on the western route were decided. But it changed its position late last year after the final investment decision on development of the Chayanda gas condensate field was approved.


    Russia China OIL-GAS deals

    Some delighful pics..
    Very Happy









    The best one is this.. Smile












    I have put lot of SPIN on this visit but it cannot be argued that this VISIT WAS A GAME CHANGER .
    All Senior members your opinion are welcome Very Happy

    Regular
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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:48 pm

    China is cool until it starts copying Russian stuff and calling it their own and even better. Then it really pisses me off.

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Firebird on Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:56 pm

    The good side to China is that I understand they've never tried to invade anywhere outside the (former!) 7 kingdoms of China.

    BUT with 1.4 billion people, huge ec power, and shit stirrers (America's republicans etc!) backing them, I dont think vigilance and caution does any harm. Even Hitler tried the "Mr Nice Guy" routine in the early days.

    Nor does China show any respect for intellectual property.

    Persoanlly, I think their mentality, their obsession with "face" (ie status and pride) means that its not really possible for Russia to become real friends with them.

    Natural alliances I believe are the CIS, India, Slavic Europe, and the more advanced European countries. And places like Brazil, Venezuela etc

    Trade is fine (within reason), tech transfer and weakening the Russian position... NO THANKS!

    OK the gas deal is fine. Provided it doesn't take Russia away from doing things with Europe. The question is...what will Russia's long term relationship with China be like.

    For now, 200bn pa is very good news.

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:37 am

    Nor does China show any respect for intellectual property.

    I have no respect for intellectual property rights... if you didn't come up with it, then some one else will... and several might have already come up with it but not had the backing or strength to get it to a produce-able product that earns money.

    Or do you think it is fair some dimwit chick can warble a song someone else wrote and make millions of dollars from a weekend in a recording studio, while the people that built the roads and buildings and cars she uses every day earn minimum wage.

    Intellectual property is sometimes overrated.

    Persoanlly, I think their mentality, their obsession with "face" (ie status and pride) means that its not really possible for Russia to become real friends with them.

    There are very few real friends in international politics, but they can certainly trade and work together on things they can both benefit from.

    Trade is fine (within reason), tech transfer and weakening the Russian position... NO THANKS!

    Actually the tech transfer can go both ways... the west has invested a lot of money into china and there were a few things available to china they will not sell to russia... also a few things china has 'borrowed' no doubt too.

    OK the gas deal is fine. Provided it doesn't take Russia away from doing things with Europe. The question is...what will Russia's long term relationship with China be like.

    The EU is pushing Russia away... every year they have meetings and make changes to try and deal with their dependency on Russian natural resources... Asia has more money anyway, and tends to treat Russia with more respect than most of europe.


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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:54 pm

    Firebird wrote:The good side to China is that I understand they've never tried to invade anywhere outside the (former!) 7 kingdoms of China.

    Of course you can't base future predictions off past history - but it holds a lot of relevance nontheless. You can certainly gain a better understanding of a country's likely actions, phobia, vital interests, etc.. by looking at how it has behaved in the past.

    For example you could always count on Russia to want to acquire buffer states and allies on its Western borders with Europe.
    And likewise you can count on China to be insular, fixated on their economy, and keep themselves mostly to Asia, rather than attempting to colonise Siberia; after all they never even wanted to risk allocating the resources required for that at any time during their several thousand year history; even when those lands were just inhabited by scattered tribes as opposed to a nuclear power with a huge military as now.

    BUT with 1.4 billion people, huge ec power, and shit stirrers (America's republicans etc!) backing them, I dont think vigilance and caution does any harm. Even Hitler tried the "Mr Nice Guy" routine in the early days.

    America's neo-cons are still raging today - that they can't get Russia and China to duke it out or even display the slightest signs of public distrust or disagreement with each other Razz

    It means Russia and China are on the ball - their joint diplomacy and publicly united front in the UN and elsewhere are what enable them to both gain a lot of influence and respect though organisations such as BRICS and the SCO.
    Were they bickering in public - countries in Africa, South America and Asia would definitely think twice before moving closer to them and forgoing some preferential terms or partnerships with the IMF and G7 instead.

    Nor does China show any respect for intellectual property.

    They're communists (nominally), why should they? Razz

    Persoanlly, I think their mentality, their obsession with "face" (ie status and pride) means that its not really possible for Russia to become real friends with them.

    You have this sort of thing in all East Asian countries but I don't think it's all that important; at the end of the day they can be counted on to act as pragmatically as Russia. China right now is acting very pragmatically and diplomatically in relation to the wider-world; it's more careful to avoid conflicts and involvements in this or that than Russia is.

    Natural alliances I believe are the CIS, India, Slavic Europe, and the more advanced European countries. And places like Brazil, Venezuela etc

    The Europeans are obsessed with expansionism into the former USSR and the Middle East, and trying to interfere in Russia politically.
    The Slavic Europeans are obsessed with their own Russophobia; enough said.
    The CIS can be good but equally some countries like Uzbekistan, the Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc... are just too unpredictable, unstable or easily swayed - they can be counted on only to change their positions vis-a-vis Russia every few years; which of course does no-one any good in terms of trying to build long-term economic partnerships.
    India and the South Americans are good partners and hold plenty of potential; the trouble is that they are just a lot further away and thus trade between Russia and them will never be as high as between Russia and the CIS, China or Europe.

    As you can see, there are downsides to every one of these countries. And China too.
    But on balance - China is no worse a partner for Russia than any of them.
    Fortunately Russia is a very powerful country and we are not burdened with the decision to have to make a choice between one or the other. We can be partners with all of them at once.

    Trade is fine (within reason), tech transfer and weakening the Russian position... NO THANKS!

    A weakening of the Russian position for the sake of ANY one of our partners is unacceptable.
    That sort of goes against the idea of partnership (i.e. mutual benefits and interests)

    OK the gas deal is fine. Provided it doesn't take Russia away from doing things with Europe. The question is...what will Russia's long term relationship with China be like.

    I'd like to be optimistic. No-one can say about 50-100 years from now; the world then will be a different place. But for the next 15-20 years it will probably be fine.

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:48 pm

    Wonder how the west will feel about this:

    Russia Offers S. Africa Help With Nuclear Power

    DURBAN, March 26 (RIA Novosti) – Russia is ready to assist South Africa with construction of nuclear power plants (NPP) in the country, providing a line of credit if the project is implemented by Russian specialists, President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday.

    Putin arrived in Durban on a two-day visit to attend the fifth BRICS summit with the leaders of Brazil, India, China and South Africa.

    “Russia is offering South Africa not only to help with construction of nuclear power reactors, but also with the creation of the advanced nuclear power industry, including the extraction of raw materials, construction of NPPs and research reactors, design and domestic production of nuclear power equipment with Russian credit support,” Putin said after talks with South African President Jacob Zuma.

    South Africa has two nuclear reactors generating 5 percent of its electricity.

    Government commitment to the future of nuclear energy is strong, with firm plans for further 9,600 MWe in the next decade, but financial constraints are severe, according to World Nuclear Association.

    Overall, the Russian-South African summit on Tuesday produced a raft of cooperation agreements, including a joint declaration on strategic partnership.

    The sides agreed to boost their bilateral trade, which reached almost $1 billion in 2012, Putin said.

    “We are planning to set up a joint production of the Ansat light multipurpose helicopter. Talks are underway on the delivery of Russian-made MS-21 passenger planes to South Africa,” the Russian president said.

    The joint declaration on strategic partnership includes a clause “on the expansion of cooperation in the military sphere, including military and military-technical cooperation in long-term perspective and other forms of interaction between the armed forces of the two countries.”

    What I like about this is that it is mutually beneficial... South Africa isn't going to go into enormous debt to buy Russian nuclear reactors they will rely on Russia to be able to use, which binds them to being Russias yes men if they want to keep using them.

    South Africa is going to learn and to get reliable energy resources and both countries will benefit in the long term and the short term... plus they will make Ansat helos... Smile


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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  gaurav on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:25 am

    Regular wrote: China is cool until it starts copying Russian stuff and calling it their own and even better. Then it really pisses me off.

    First I would like to tahnk for your replies.. growing topic eh.. Smile

    See the thing is that China has been trying hard , really really hard to export their air defense , JF-17 , J-10 etc but not a single customer has applied or prepared to import this hardware.
    If you access the situation going from 1995 to 2014 (almost 2 decades ) and yet no exports then ofcouse many chinese manufactures will be forced to "COPY" the specification of the original products adn sell those specifications.
    There are hell lot of Chinese manufactureres doing the same , as they cannot depend on Chinese defence budget alone.
    Chinese defence budget does not account for all the HW that those companies are developing..

    OFF_TOPIC
    This website is not working.. I am not able to access russiadefence.net
    I am only able to access englishboard.net domain..I mean now only englishboard.net is working..
    IS there some issue with that confused bounce



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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Austin on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:14 pm

    The Russia-China Oil/Gas deal is more of a commercial nature , since both countries share a border and China needs huge amount of Gas and Oil and Russia has the same , its cheaper to build a pipeline and supply Oil and Gas to China and its cheaper compared to say transport Gas via Ships and build LNG Terminal.

    India has similar deal with Russia in Sakhlin basin but it needs ships and LNG terminal at ports.

    So there is nothing Evil about Russia-China Deal its more of mercantile. No one every Says China-US trading is evil and they are worth many hundred billion dollar.

    As for China Invading Russia or something like that Nuclear Weapons make sure such things dont happen , No country can afford even few cities getting Nuked neither US nor China nor Russia that ensures Strategic Stability.

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:07 pm

    Power of Siberia this is the source where Chinese will receive their Gas

    http://www.gazprom.com/about/production/projects/pipelines/ykv/

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  gaurav on Sat May 11, 2013 3:42 pm

    Asia has more money anyway, and tends to treat Russia with more respect than most of europe

    Dangerous proposition. Part of the reason of Russ-China partnership is prevent Asian hegemony in 21st century.

    Russia still maintains all the HELL of its currency reserves in Euro.

    This factor also takes into account that Russia does not trust Asian banking and creeping Asian Power.

    Hence as Russia does not have human resources to excel in many consumer industries, it has sided with China to compensate for

    the huge loss of working man power.

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 12, 2013 11:47 am

    There is plenty of potential man power in Russia, and with lots of work there the population will start to grow and it will solve itself.

    Having a job and good job prospects provides the stability needed to have children...


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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  Regular on Sun May 12, 2013 1:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:There is plenty of potential man power in Russia, and with lots of work there the population will start to grow and it will solve itself.

    Having a job and good job prospects provides the stability needed to have children...
    There is nothing unique about Russian population. In developed countries birth rates drop significantly but there a few factors that affected Russia before. collapse of Soviet union and mass emigration.
    For example young people in Moscow want to sort their life and career before starting pumping babies. Advanced and heavy industry does not require big population and Russia should excel by skill and not the numbers. Russia should be more worried about quality than quantity. Russian engineers, scientist are well known

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2013 11:38 am

    Smile
    Agree with everything you just said Regular.

    The same people pumping out the sky is falling for Russia crap are the ones pushing the... there will be no one left there soon rubbish.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  coolieno99 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:03 am

    Peace Mission 2013






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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  coolieno99 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:41 am

    Russian Air Force official inspecting J-10 aircraft.


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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  coolieno99 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:22 am

    China's  August 1st  aerobatic team performing at  MAKS 2013  air show.


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    Russia China relations

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:58 am

    Never been better throughout their history and advancing at fast pace


    Putin to visit China twice this year

    Russian, Chinese Leaders to Meet Five Times in 2014

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  macedonian on Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:11 am

    Very interesting (to say the least).
    Cooperation between Russia and China must be the FIRST thing that scares the living daylights out of the "democracy installing" engineers.
    I'm sure they'll try their divide et impera tactics in this case as well, but it's now up to the leadership in both China and Russia to be smart.

    And so far they've proven to be just that:

    РИА Новости

    Time will tell what follows next, but there are certainly interesting times ahead.

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:52 pm

    Apparently Putin and the Chinese comrades (including Jinping) shared a drink of vodka at Putin's 61st birthday which he celebrated at the APEC summit in Bali.

    Good times  Cool


    Last edited by flamming_python on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:29 am

    I for one am glad to see this.

    Nothing the US would like more than to see Russia fighting with China or China fighting with India... it would suit their agenda.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Sino-Russian relations:

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