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    Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

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    d_taddei2

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    Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 11, 2013 1:51 pm

    Hi all,

    The t-34 tank and ZSU-57 is still in use in some armies around the world today. But the question is are they any good on todays battle field or should they scrapped/museum piece???

    My general view is the t-34 as a main battle tank is no longer an option but this tank with a few upgrades would be ideal as an infantry support tank, its gun would still be useful against light armoured vehicles and bunkers, this could be improved with some upgraded ammo, and day/night/all weather optic's.

    As for the ZSU-57 i think its anti air capabilities are very limited, forces using them would only hope to to take out slow moving aircraft and helicopters if they were lucky. i think yet again this vehicle would be of use to infantry in the ground support role, attack light armoured vehicles and bunkers, with the same upgrades as mentioned on the t-34, the main advantage with this would be the range of the weapon.
    I know being an ex infantryman that support at times can be sacre and any is welcomed on the battle field, would i be happy to have a t-34 taking out bunkers or a ZSU-57 providing fire support for me, hell yes!

    Please share your views on this.
    dom
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    Zivo

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  Zivo on Sat May 11, 2013 2:20 pm

    welcome


    Even on the modern battle field, I think if a ZSU-57 showed up people on the receiving end would high tail it out of there. T-55's are still widely used, and if you're fighting against them on foot, a T-34 would be just as deadly as a T-55.

    Syria also stuck a D-30 on a T-34 chassis and come up with this oddity.

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    d_taddei2

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    thanks

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 11, 2013 3:14 pm

    thanks for replying, i think your right i wouldnt want to be around if a ZSU-57 was firing at me, ive seen the t-34/artillery before, think it fits this role well, a fairly decent chassis to mount something like this, at least there putting some old equipment into use rather than letting it rust in an old warehouse.
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    Regular

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  Regular on Sat May 11, 2013 7:07 pm

    In Hungary protesters managed to start T-34 that was actually a monument and was sitting there for decades!


    I once went to Poland and we seen T-34 (don't remember version) in a country side village. When we went there to take pictures owner shoved up and even let us inside tank. He said that tank engine is still alive.
    Not sure if You can use these tanks now as there are loads of t-55 that are more advanced and they would be no match for them, but in a revolution it would be perfect. ZSU-57 is good too, they can shred older tanks to bits. And can rip optics, tracks, damage barrel to any tank. You only need people who know what they are doing.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat May 11, 2013 9:19 pm

    If the ZSU-57 was equipped with laser guided shells and modern FCS it would be quite a threat to UAVs, helos and slow flying aircraft.
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    d_taddei2

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    thanks

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 11, 2013 10:05 pm

    I remember a t-34 being recovered from a bog, pretty sure it was in Estonia and they managed to start it up despite being at the bottom of a bog for 60-70yrs aparently the engine had no oil leaks and the tank had hardly any rust.

    The ZSU-57 rounds were powerful against aircraft, i read somewhere that 1-2 rounds would have taken out fixed wing aircraft. if it had a decent radar/tracker and and few other upgrades i reckon the current shells would do a fine job at shredding helicopters and other aircraft.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 12, 2013 10:21 am

    Really depend what you were going to do with them.

    As mentioned above, the T-34 is starting to become relatively rare, while later models, especially the T-55 family are still widely abundant and various upgrades exist for them.

    The biggest issue with the ZSU-57-2 is the open roof and the fact that the rounds are enormous and clip fed. They are very powerful and have been found to be very effective against ground targets.

    If you want cheap however I would think that a T-55, or even an early model T-72 would be cheaper and have better upgrade potential, and I suspect the same for the ZSU-23-4, or early model Tunguskas.

    Slightly more expensive but much more growth potential.

    Rather than the ZSU-57-2 it might even be more worthwhile looking at a PT-76 with the A-220 turret fitted with the automatic 57mm gun and upgraded optics/systems. A stabilised mount, with autoloader and night vision equipment, a small modification of the vehicle... lost the amphibious capability and expand the ammo storage to 300 odd rounds and you have a very powerful anti IFV vehicle that can be used against ground and air targets and to support infantry directly.


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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun May 12, 2013 12:42 pm

    The ZSU-57-2 would still be useful in the infantry support role....I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of this thing

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    medo

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  medo on Sun May 12, 2013 2:01 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:The ZSU-57-2 would still be useful in the infantry support role....I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of this thing


    Guns are still effective, but the vehicle itself is too old. It is better to place new AU-220M turret with autoloader and modern FCS on T-72 chassis and get effective support vehicle.
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    d_taddei2

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    thanks

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun May 12, 2013 5:15 pm

    thanks to all who have reply to the thread.
    Garry your right in its open top, the crew and ammo is to vunerable to small arms fire and shrapnel. The ZSU 23-4 has proven to be excellent in the ground support role. And the t-55 has so many upgrades option available to it now that they can be pretty useful. I am hoping to post more similar questions about other older kit to see the views of others as theres some interesting views (if people are happy with me asking). Other forums ive been on always come out with silly comments like Russian equipment is outdated, no use on the battle field and all there stuff is crap, its good to see some common battle field sense and knowledgeable comments.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2013 11:57 am

    To say Russian stuff is outdated needs qualification... the T-34 and ZSU-57-2 are very old vehicles, but where there is a shortage of RPGs and enemy armour even outdated can be useful if you have it and they don't.

    The problem in the west is that if you have an Ipad 1 then you are out of date... if the Ipad 1 does everything you need for it to do, then it is not out of date... they are just being stuck up snobs.

    It would help with such questions if you give some context, for instance a country in Africa might have a significant supply of T-34s and ZSU-57-2s and so what is their cheapest upgrade options.

    Just as an example I would say that a T-34 and ZSU-57-2 are simple basic machines that would be easier to use and upgrade in African conditions that some uber expensive super tank, but the fact that the ZSU-57-2 is T-55 based, but with lightened armour I would say that the T-34s could have their turrets removed and mounted on boats to create cheap gun boats and the vehicles reduced to scrap and money spent buying more T-55s to have automotive commonality.

    The 100mm gun of the T-54/55 is rather more effective than the light gun of the T-34, whether it is a 76.2mm or an 85mm.

    Many upgrades of the T-55 start by replacing the turret with an early model T-72 turret, so the abundance of the T-72s could make a bulk purchase of such vehicles a much more sensible proposition.

    The critical thing would be to enforce the rule that with regards to internal ammo storage only 22 round inside the autoloader and no other main gun ammo as it is a serious fire risk. Perhaps small trailers could be fitted to carry more ammo externally safely.

    With T-72s you could develop a separate vehicle with the A-220 turret with a single 57mm gun for ground support and anti aircraft use.


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    d_taddei2

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    PT-76 is it still usefull??????

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:08 am

    Hi all,

    Would like peoples views on the PT-76 and on the PT-76E, is this tank still usefull, despite production starting 60yrs ago, which stopped 44yrs ago, and has had very little upgrades in it life, the most notable change was the PT-76E with a change of arnament. any views etc would be great.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:45 am

    Its main advantage is its amphibious capability, which in a marine environment or on boggy marshy terrain is actually rather important.

    The 76.2mm is obsolete, but the new 57mm gun in the upgraded model is starting to look interesting. With modern ammo and modern optics it starts to become a more interesting vehicle, but it is certainly a light tank only... trying to use it as a standard tank would be like trying to use an M-113 as a standard tank with a 40mm gun mounted on its roof.

    If they have an APFSDS round for the 57mm gun and it can manage 300-400mm penetration at 1,500m then you are looking at a very potent weapon... especially with a laser guided shell that can take on aircraft and point ground targets...


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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:06 am

    hi garry thanks for the reply, i definately agree, the 57mm is much more suited for the tank, and your right the amphibious qualities is definately its strongest point/use, and could provide a nasty surprise to enemy force who least expect an attack from marine or boggy areas. This truely an amphibious vehicle, not like the western term which is different to the Russian term, when i was in the forces(british) their reference to amphibious vehicles was one which meant a vehicle which basically could cross rivers with the use of its tracks or wheels touching the bottom, not floating like Russian equipment.
    And when we did vehicle recognition training nothing was mention to say that these vehicles actually floated and could swim, everybody thought it would have the same type of amphibious qualities as a normal tank. So most people in the the western armies (certainly the British army) could totally be taken by surprise by these, considering troops would plan of being attacked by land or boggy ground, and not realising these tanks can actually swim and could come from lakes or the sea.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet armoured fighting vehicles: Uses and upgrades

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:06 pm

    There are certainly degrees of amphibious capability, but being able to drive through rivers with tracks on the ground is generally referred to as fording capability.

    Most light armour in the Russian military is amphibious, but vehicles like the BTR and BMP are designed for rivers and lakes rather than open ocean and are not specifically designed to land in rough sea beach landings.

    The new medium vehicles (boomerang and Kurganets) are amphibious but for instance the Russian Navy is getting a modified version of Kurganets that includes external rear propellers and likely with a higher freeboard (ie sits higher in the water) so it is able to land on a steeper beach with higher waves.

    The original PT-76 is in many ways like a very big Scorpion light tank, but the upgrade to fit it with a 57mm gun will include a range of improvements in the fire control and optics that will make it a far more potent vehicle in terms of engaging air and ground targets. Being a large vehicle it will also have plenty of space for ammo, which takes up quite a bit of space unfortunately.

    Using newly developed rounds it will be quite a potent system against air and ground targets of light and medium weight.

    With a good stabiliser it should be able to pump out 120 rounds a minute while on the move... which would ruin even a modern IFVs day and also be a serious threat to a previous generation tank.

    Guided anti helo rounds would be very useful too.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:28 pm

    this is exactly what i mean the British army class vehicles that can ford as amphibious, which to me its doesnt count as being truely amphibious, it will be interesting to see the new vehicles and their different variants, got a few years yet before we see finished product. It will also be good for other countries as Russia will look to start clearing out older systems so some of the poorer nations out there should be able to get a bargain on older equipment.
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    d_taddei2

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    Old soviet vehicles with modern/unusual upgrades.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:39 pm

    Hi all, looking at older soviet vehicles and how over time various countries have modernised them into something much better or even to some of the more unusual upgrades done by other countries. I am looking for people views and to share any info on any vehicle which has been upgraded in any way and with pictures if you have them.

    I will start a with few:

    BRDM-2 Azerbaijan ZKDM armed with 7.62mm, 30 mm AGS-17, twin 23mm cannons, four 57 or 80 mm rocket launchers and two smoke grenade launchers mounted on each side of the vehicle, which is a massive upgrade on the original model.




    BRDM-2  gurcu Azerbaijan anti air armed with 23mm cannon and 7.62mm.



    BRDM-2 Afghanistan upgrade with 57 mm rocket pod originally for a helicopter or aircraft.


    BRDM-2 with BM-14-16 believed to be Afghanistan upgrade.


    BRDM-2 Turkish upgrade with OMTAS anti tank missile system.


    BRDM-2 with TOW missile system.


    BRDM-2 Belarus upgrade Caiman


    BTR-70M Azerbaijan upgrade with 23mm gun, and 7.62mm


    BTR-50S Serbian upgrade armed with 30mm canon, 7.62mm, two 9M14 Malyutka(AT-3).



    PT-76E Russian upgrade with a 57mm gun instead of the 76mm gun.

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