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    Revisionism about WWII and USSR

    Jyshky
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    Post  Jyshky on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:06 pm

    Is this guy a Pro-Russian or Pro-Communist?

    In a youtube video of Russian National Anthem he commented the next:

    "A poor country that wanted peace from her very existence was forced into war and war-type situations from her birth (Western intervention in the Russian revolution; British, German, and Italian sabotage of the Popular Front alliance between France, the USSR, Czechoslovakia, and Spain; British and French attempts to start a war between the Soviet Union and Germany; the invasion of the Soviet Union by the Germans and other Fascists; the agitation of a Cold War by the United States; etc.).

    The capitalist countries should be ashamed of themselves..."

    after that commented a polish guy:

    "The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, you have heard. Your peace-loving country invaded Poland, which defended itself against animals from Germany. Later Soviet hippies occupying defenseless baltic countries-Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finladnia. Even the bandit Hiter was a boy scout compared to the Soviet."

    Then the first guy answered with this:

    "The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact only sought to establish a Soviet sphere of interest in certain areas in Eastern Europe (basically telling the Germans what they couldn't invade or influence).  In the case of Poland, the Soviets wanted to create a Polish state in the land east of the Curzon (not to annex it), but when your president fled to Romania on September 15th, the agreement between Germany and Russia was void (the Polish government no longer existed, so the Polish state did not have representation and thus there was no one for Hitler to make peace with).  If your president didn't flee, he could have left to Brest-Litovsk, Grodno, Lviv, and declared a Polish state (with military protection from the Soviet Union, but instead he decided to flee to neutral Romania - which meant he resigned from his position since under international laws you cannot remain president, in the case of war, if you flee to a neutral country.  He was forced to stay in Romania until the end of the war).  Had the Soviets not invaded immediately (September 17th), the Germans could have seized all lands east of the Curzon (which were technically Ukrainian and Belorussian lands) and made geographic claims against the Ukrainian and Belorussian SSRs.

    The Baltic states all had political elections where the Communist parties won and all decided to join the Soviet Union.  As for Finland, they declined two pacts of mutual assistance with the SU, and they fired mortar shells into Soviet territory, which killed Red army soldiers, sparking a war."

    And for my knowledge of the history the Mainila Shots or "Mainilan Laukaukset" was ordered by Stavka.

    I apologise if this offends someone, i just want someone tell me is this guy a Pro-Russian or Pro-Communist?

    Here is the link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLjSu9U1lEU
    zg18
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    Post  zg18 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:25 pm

    Jyshky wrote:Is this guy a Pro-Russian or Pro-Communist?

    Isn`t that simplification?

    Fact is UK and France hoped that Germany under Hitler would turn only eastward in expansion. Munich agreement was all about that , they left on purpose entire Central Europe into the influence zone of Third Reich.

    Stalin knew USSR is not ready for war so he signed the M-R Pact practically outmaneuvering UK and France securing Germany first moves will be into direction of Western .

    Stalin , of course could not have seen that German victories and advance will be at light speed , putting Germany on original track , building Empire in the East.

    Instead thinking in these categories , the entire historical moment in that part of European history should be viewed as extreme shortsightedness , taking gambles with unfavourably high risks by the political elites that left Europe in ruins.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:40 pm

    I'm so tired of hearing the capitalist lie that "the commies helped hitler"  Rolling Eyes The soviet "invasion" of Poland was the returning of belorussian and Ukrainian land originally occupied and ravaged by Poland in 1920 due to its micro imperialistic ambitions. Also the soviets entered there after the polish government fleed which made it cease to exist. The real Poland was occupied by the germans and all of it was returned after WW2.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:45 pm

    That is really a generalisation/simplification.

    That guy has clearly an understanding of politics and at the same time not liking capitalism doesn't mean he is automatically pro-communism.

    And to be quite honest, to talk with polish people about WW2 is like talking to a parrot that learned only to swear. Poland took after the october "revolution" in russia russian cities from belarus and ukraine and Soviet Union took exact this cities and region parts back, also defacto like he said even from another perspective Poland did not exist during that time anymore. After WW1 when both countries russia and germany were weakened France granted illegaly to poland to get russian soil and same about german soil. This was created under directive of Brits to make tensions and provocate future conflicts. Germany is hated by the Brits since they challanged their status quo as an Empire and collonial force and have hurtened british economy by outproducing/trading them in short time. Like the massmurder Churchill wrote to Stalin in a letter "I don't have a war with Hitler, i have a war with Germany". And in another letter "Germany has to be destroyed once and for all."

    That guy isn't pro soviet union since the first 2 sentences state it quite obvious.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:49 pm

    Yes, the Stalinist regime was brutal and looking out for its own interests.

    So what, so was everyone. Poland nibbled off parts of Czechoslovakia, so much for "peace loving".
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    Post  zg18 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:53 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I'm so tired of hearing the capitalist lie that "the commies helped hitler"  Rolling Eyes The soviet "invasion" of Poland was the returning of belorussian  and Ukrainian land originally occupied and ravaged by Poland in 1920 due to its micro imperialistic ambitions. Also the soviets entered there after the polish government fleed which made it cease to exist. The real Poland was occupied by the germans and all of it was returned after WW2.

    Vilnius/Wilno at that time was a Polish city , taken by USSR and given to Lithuania. Historically Lithuanian but Polonized over time , it`s part of territory that can be considered as theft from Poland.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:24 am

    The non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union... read the words carefully... NON AGGRESSION PACT.

    An agreement not to step on each others toes.

    Hardly the basis for a friendship or alliance.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:27 am

    GarryB wrote:The non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union... read the words carefully... NON AGGRESSION PACT.

    An agreement not to step on each others toes.

    Hardly the basis for a friendship or alliance.

    Yes westerner or just anti-russian/soviet minded people love to twist it into Alliance of axis of evil but at same time financing terrorists, telling them to go into a certain country to blow up citizens is not related with being themselfs terrorist and warmonger, western double standards and hypocrazy.
    Regular
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:28 pm

    The Baltic states all had political elections where the Communist parties won and all decided to join the Soviet Union. As for Finland, they declined two pacts of mutual assistance with the SU, and they fired mortar shells into Soviet territory, which killed Red army soldiers, sparking a war
    BS. He must be deluded, how come authoritarian government we had in Baltics could even allow elections when communist parties where banned and shunned. We had idiotic military junta, but still 100 better than what we got from traitors under Stalins boot. It was ULTIMATUM and ten OCCUPATION.
    We probably deserved what was coming, I mean second occupation, but can't say same thing about Latvians or Estonians, they are truly victims.
    And yeah Finland attacking SU is like Paris Hilton attacking Brock Lesnar. Sheesh.


    Last edited by Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:The non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union... read the words carefully... NON AGGRESSION PACT.

    An agreement not to step on each others toes.

    Hardly the basis for a friendship or alliance.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Boundary_and_Friendship_Treaty
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:20 pm

    Yes, sure wikishmedia the worst source when it comes to history or military matters.

    Self created articles.

    Non Aggression Pact means, i don't smack your skull against the wall when you rob every neighbour in my neighbourhood, except me.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:17 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Yes, sure wikishmedia the worst source when it comes to history or military matters.

    Self created articles.

    Non Aggression Pact means, i don't smack your skull against the wall when you rob every neighbour in my neighbourhood, except me.
    Well maybe You right, cause it only leads to couple sources and it doesn't look like a real deal, but so called fake friendship was there. Wasn't same like with Japanese. Both sides pretended they will not stab each other in the back. Cooperation after 35 was minimal and ideologies where alraedy clashing in propaganda battle. It happened to be Germans who broke their word it first. Soviet union was comparably weak at that time, would Hitler give Stalin couple years to reform there would be no Blitzkrieg or it would be going his way.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:12 pm

    Regular wrote:Latvians or Estonians, they are truly victims.

    Sure buddy, heard that one before.

    Meanwhile when ze Germans arrived to liberate the oppressed Baltic peoples; they entered villages to be greeted with signs along the lines of 'already Juden-free' and so on, the locals were keen to get the dirty business over and done with ahead of the arrival of the German columns - sparing those all the hard work. How nice  Twisted Evil
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:21 pm

    On the subject, you know what REALLY grinds my gears? Like seriously rustles them?

    When Poles say USSR was worse than Germany. Makes me wish the Red Army stopped at the borders of Poland during the war. Thousands of Soviet troops would have lived...oh and the Germans would have finished off what was left of Poland, but hey, they are better than USSR right Smile. I guess then there wouldn't be any whiny Poles to cry about the USSR today, but I am okay with that.

    No but seriously. Stalin was a monster, and the Soviet regime was terrible. The Soviet people suffered the most from it while we are at it.
    But holy shit, everytime I hear "Soviets just as bad as Germans!" I think to myself....is there a retard gene in Eastern Europe?


    Oh and, wahhh teh rapes wahhhh.
    Germany is lucky to exist AT ALL after what they pulled.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:59 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Regular wrote:Latvians or Estonians, they are truly victims.

    Sure buddy, heard that one before.

    Meanwhile when ze Germans arrived to liberate the oppressed Baltic peoples; they entered villages to be greeted with signs along the lines of 'already Juden-free' and so on, the locals were keen to get the dirty business over and done with ahead of the arrival of the German columns - sparing those all the hard work. How nice  Twisted Evil
    I'm pretty sure it was Lithuanians, not them who started killing jews before Germans started organizing it, but it's bit more complicated  pale
    There is nothing I can say to defend this and I hate that it's taboo in my country. 
    Just some things that would paint this terrible picture-
    Germans where actually in Lithuania when first pogrom started and they had their blessing on it and SS covert groups helped with logistics as well. There where so many radical militias, fascists, nationalists running loose. Before that they where kept at check by moderate nationalist Smetona and later by Soviets. 
    First killings where done by rogue band of Algirdas Klimaitis. After the war he left for Germany and never been persecuted. He said that he was forced by . He died happily on 1988. 
    Population was anti Jewish but not to that point where such things would be acceptable. Jews where here for ages and pretty much was one of the most successful people, in business and culture alike. Most of them lived in the cities. Country side rednecks where easy to find, economy was non existed and scapegoat was here. 
    But then again killings and round ups where done by local militias and not village folks with pitchforks.
    Transitional government deformed most of rogue bands and merged them to battalions, but that didn't stop them from killing and later even institutions where involved in pogroms.
    Unknowingly to those local nazis, Germans needed this land for Germanisation, after war most of those "heroes" would have made into fertilizer. 
    Genocide in 3 years did more damage to our country than over 10 years of Soviet deportations.
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    Post  Regular on Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:16 am

    TR1 wrote:On the subject, you know what REALLY grinds my gears? Like seriously rustles them?

    When Poles say USSR was worse than Germany. Makes me wish the Red Army stopped at the borders of Poland during the war. Thousands of Soviet troops would have lived...oh and the Germans would have finished off what was left of Poland, but hey, they are better than USSR right Smile. I guess then there wouldn't be any whiny Poles to cry about the USSR today, but I am okay with that.

    No but seriously. Stalin was a monster, and the Soviet regime was terrible. The Soviet people suffered the most from it while we are at it.
    But holy shit, everytime I hear "Soviets just as bad as Germans!" I think to myself....is there a retard gene in Eastern Europe?


    Oh and, wahhh teh rapes wahhhh.
    Germany is lucky to exist AT ALL after what they pulled.
    Well under Stalin it wasn't all pies and cakes. NKVD was bad as cancer. From personal story, my grand grand father said that Russian soldiers who went westwards to Germany warned about them.  
    But then again, how long did Germans stay and how long Soviets? Maybe it's true, Soviet occupation for 50 years was as bad as 5 years of Nazi occupation. 
    And yeah rape was serious problem, but it's not like Soviets didn't deal with that, You could get court martial if You would steal a bike or carpet and soldiers where executed because of rapes as well, especially in Berlin. Armija Krajowa on their nationalistic safari weren't acting like virgin angels in Vilnius as well. Not to mention Nazi friends from Hungry and Romania and their crimes in Russia.
    If You they blame someone they should prepare to take the blame as well. But to be a victim is more comforting.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri May 10, 2019 11:03 pm

    Stalin invented the surprise attack Hitler on the USSR. Told by Zhukov in 1956
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 11, 2019 7:12 am

    Hahahaha.... blame Stalin... why not... so many former German Generals felt it was easier to blame the winter and numbers and hitler for their failure too.

    The reality is that Stalin probably suspected right up until the last minute that any evidence of a German attack was created by the British to try to fool the Soviets to fight the Germans too. At the time the British were pretty much on their own and desperate to get some real allies against the Germans and for them the two best options would be the Soviets and the Americans... you can bet your ass they were at the Soviets night and day telling them of the Germans plans to invade the Soviet Union.

    The facts were that before the German invasion of Poland the Soviets asked Britain for an alliance with Poland against Germany and neither were interested and in fact they feared the Soviets more than they feared the Germans.

    Nothing in their history would suggest any reason for Stalin to trust Britain at all.

    The Soviet Military was in a state of transition from one model to a different model based on what they learned from combat in spain and in Finland.

    Also they didn't want to put their forces on a war footing in case that provoked the Germans to attack in a preemptive self defence type manner fearing the Soviets were preparing to attack them.

    And they had enormous defensive lines in the region that were dismantled because of various changes in planning that would have made the German invasion much harder.

    There were things that would not have changed... most of their aircraft, while potent and powerful when they first entered service in the mid 1930s were now obsolete.. the Polikarpov I-15 and I-16 are obvious examples, and they had them in enormous numbers, though fortunately because they were out on the airfields instead of hidden away most were destroyed on the ground so more pilots survived that might otherwise have been killed in the air in inferior fighters... while they also had a lot of armour, again much of it was light tanks like T-26s which were very ordinary and were not designed for the modern tactics the German tanks used. The German tanks of the time didn't have better guns or better armour, what they had was tanks designed to operate in teams where the commander didn't have to load and fire the gun he could just be the commander and find targets and threats.
    Of course they had good platforms too... Yak-1 and MiG-3 and T-34 and KV-1 but in small numbers to make a difference.

    Another problem was a lack of anti armour ammunition... having a big powerful gun able to penetrate the armour of any enemy vehicle means nothing if you only have HE rounds which wont penetrate armour...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 11, 2019 7:39 am

    Marshall Zhukov knew what he was talking about. Besides, many able generals were executed in purges; Vlasov defected- his treason was caused in large measure by Stalin, & his ROA helped Germans fight partisans & other USSR allies.
    The British intelligence fed Hitler disinformation on USSR mil. strength & succeeded in pushing Germany to invade it, esp. after Stalin gave her casus belli by taking over Bessarabia, threatening the Romanian oil fields essential to the Nazi war machine. The GB became like the Monkey King from the Chinese tale that survived on a tree while the 2 tigers were battling each other.  
    That's also why R. Hess who knew too much had to be kept silent & was never released from the Tower of London.
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    Post  kvs on Sat May 11, 2019 2:52 pm

    NATO revisionism is trying to create the fake history that Nazi Germany invaded the USSR as a defensive measure. At the same
    time they are moving away from the fake moral equivalence between the Nazis and the Soviets to singular evil and guilt of Russia.

    Anyone with even a basic knowledge of history would see that the USSR showed no indication of any force build up for some war to
    occupy the west. That is why the USSR was scrambling to build factories and increase production after Hitler invaded. If
    the USSR was really some invasion threat, Hitler's armies would have not had the initial land grabbing success that they had. This
    is basically physics since Soviet military resources would have been concentrated in the west already and would have had the magnitude
    to grind any blitzkrieg to a halt. The Nazi blitzkrieg only works as a surprise attack against an unprepared victim. Revisionists would
    have you believe that only the Nazis had mechanized warfare capability.

    NATO is the moral and legal successor to the Reich since it is engaged in the same 1000 year drang nach osten that the self-anointed
    guiding lights of humanity (recall the crusades) have been pursuing. A clear agenda to whitewash the Nazis is evidence of this.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat May 11, 2019 6:00 pm

    Hitler didn't issue a new version of his Mein Kampf w/o Russia mentioned as an adversary & a source for new lebensraum.
    The Soviet High Command & leadership knew that the war with Germany was coming regardless. They planned to liberate Europe after the Nazis defeated every1 else.
    But they thought to wait for the right moment, around 1942-43, to do this, & that's why they were caught unprepared for defense on such a long front from the Baltic to the Black Sea.
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    Post  kvs on Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:14 am



    The EU-rats in Bruxelles have declared that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was the cause of WWII. They have completely
    buried the 1938 Munich Agreement where the UK, France, Poland and others gave Hitler fellatio and threw him Czechoslovakia
    to use as he willed. Poland together with Germany invaded and divided Czechoslovakia.

    The alleged "division of Europe" in the MR pact is pure fantasy fiction. Poland was not partitioned. It was the Poland annexed territories
    of Belarus and Ukraine that were returned to their proper owners. Even the video above fails to identify this critical fact. It is
    a NATO revisionist lie that Poland was split. If that were the case then the territories not seized by Poland in the early 1920s would
    have been "grabbed" by the USSR. The Baltics served only as a territorial buffer and it was a fact that they were regime changed
    before any "grab" by the USSR. If regime change is good for NATO, then it is good for the USSR. So GTFO, sanctimonious western
    hypocrites.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:32 am

    Makes me doubt the history I have been taught all my life about the west from western sources...

    Churchill stated that history would look favourably on him and his actions because he intended to write it...

    What a self centred dirt bag he was.
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    Post  jhelb on Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:Makes me doubt the history I have been taught all my life about the west from western sources...

    Churchill stated that history would look favourably on him and his actions because he intended to write it...

    What a self centred dirt bag he was.

    No reason to doubt. Europe become the major technological, expansive power in the world even when other cultures were much more advanced primarily because of

    (1) Ethical Monotheism, which set up basis for intra-human interaction, common value basis, set of rules and created trust within society, and led into abolition of slavery. It also laid basis on philosophy and judicial system and rule of law instead of despot’s whim

    (2) Capitalism, which was result of abolition and prohibition of slavery, ethical system creating trust, and scientific Weltanschaung

    (3) Roman jurisprudence, which set the basis for judicial system, constitution of the society and rule of law instead of despot’s whim.

    Incidentally, these are the three most crucial leverage points on Donella Meadows’s Twelve Leverage Points’ theorem

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points

    So why did other civilizations failed ?

    Islamic civilization - Islamic countries never got rid of slavery. They had all the ingredients on the rise, but they did not realize how destructive thing slavery is.

    China - The Chinese never separated philosophy from mysticism. They were excellent engineers, but they failed to make the connection between philosophy and mathematics, and that of mathematics, science and engineering. (Though this is fast changing now)

    India - The Indian statehood was one of horrible division - that of castes. It basically paralyzed any evolution. As there was no way to improve your part in this world, why bother to try anything? Such lethargy led into a horrible divided society of filthy rich and dirt poor
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    Post  kvs on Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:27 pm

    The western civilization is a sham that depends on colonialism and infinite resource horizons for its existence. The NATO 1st world
    countries and their European derived civilization are to this day leeching 3rd world countries via debt and export of value added
    production. Capitalism is predicated on never ending growth which is inconsistent with a finite planet. That is why capitalist
    ideologues are so rabid about not being regulated in their access to markets and resources. To them, the idea that the planet
    is not an infinite toilet for pollution (e.g. all the carcinogens key to modern industry) and at the same time an infinite source
    of oil, gas and minerals is heresy.

    It is not justified to talk about this particular species of civilization as somehow having transcended all the previous ones and
    never destined to collapse. All the signs of its collapse are there. This includes the degeneration of the populace into SJW
    drones obsessed with sodomite depravity couched as tolerant and progressive. This degeneracy is actively supported by the
    corporate elites. The miracle civilization is turning into an idiocracy. Just when exogenous threats are arranging to a perfect
    storm.

    The so-called west sees the world through the lens of economic rape and actual racism (regardless of all the PC yap). It has been
    targeting Russia for centuries because it resists submission. Today, Russia retains more of the worthwhile aspects of European
    civilization than does the EU. Where crypto-Trotskysit dreamers are imposing a totalitarian regime. Look at Sweden and see the pattern.


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