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    A problem in identification, Educate me

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    Jyshky
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    A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Jyshky on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:06 pm

    Is this guy a Pro-Russian or Pro-Communist?

    In a youtube video of Russian National Anthem he commented the next:

    "A poor country that wanted peace from her very existence was forced into war and war-type situations from her birth (Western intervention in the Russian revolution; British, German, and Italian sabotage of the Popular Front alliance between France, the USSR, Czechoslovakia, and Spain; British and French attempts to start a war between the Soviet Union and Germany; the invasion of the Soviet Union by the Germans and other Fascists; the agitation of a Cold War by the United States; etc.).

    The capitalist countries should be ashamed of themselves..."

    after that commented a polish guy:

    "The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, you have heard. Your peace-loving country invaded Poland, which defended itself against animals from Germany. Later Soviet hippies occupying defenseless baltic countries-Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finladnia. Even the bandit Hiter was a boy scout compared to the Soviet."

    Then the first guy answered with this:

    "The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact only sought to establish a Soviet sphere of interest in certain areas in Eastern Europe (basically telling the Germans what they couldn't invade or influence). In the case of Poland, the Soviets wanted to create a Polish state in the land east of the Curzon (not to annex it), but when your president fled to Romania on September 15th, the agreement between Germany and Russia was void (the Polish government no longer existed, so the Polish state did not have representation and thus there was no one for Hitler to make peace with). If your president didn't flee, he could have left to Brest-Litovsk, Grodno, Lviv, and declared a Polish state (with military protection from the Soviet Union, but instead he decided to flee to neutral Romania - which meant he resigned from his position since under international laws you cannot remain president, in the case of war, if you flee to a neutral country. He was forced to stay in Romania until the end of the war). Had the Soviets not invaded immediately (September 17th), the Germans could have seized all lands east of the Curzon (which were technically Ukrainian and Belorussian lands) and made geographic claims against the Ukrainian and Belorussian SSRs.

    The Baltic states all had political elections where the Communist parties won and all decided to join the Soviet Union. As for Finland, they declined two pacts of mutual assistance with the SU, and they fired mortar shells into Soviet territory, which killed Red army soldiers, sparking a war."

    And for my knowledge of the history the Mainila Shots or "Mainilan Laukaukset" was ordered by Stavka.

    I apologise if this offends someone, i just want someone tell me is this guy a Pro-Russian or Pro-Communist?

    Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLjSu9U1lEU

    zg18
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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  zg18 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:25 pm

    Jyshky wrote:Is this guy a Pro-Russian or Pro-Communist?

    Isn`t that simplification?

    Fact is UK and France hoped that Germany under Hitler would turn only eastward in expansion. Munich agreement was all about that , they left on purpose entire Central Europe into the influence zone of Third Reich.

    Stalin knew USSR is not ready for war so he signed the M-R Pact practically outmaneuvering UK and France securing Germany first moves will be into direction of Western .

    Stalin , of course could not have seen that German victories and advance will be at light speed , putting Germany on original track , building Empire in the East.

    Instead thinking in these categories , the entire historical moment in that part of European history should be viewed as extreme shortsightedness , taking gambles with unfavourably high risks by the political elites that left Europe in ruins.

    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:40 pm

    I'm so tired of hearing the capitalist lie that "the commies helped hitler"  Rolling Eyes The soviet "invasion" of Poland was the returning of belorussian and Ukrainian land originally occupied and ravaged by Poland in 1920 due to its micro imperialistic ambitions. Also the soviets entered there after the polish government fleed which made it cease to exist. The real Poland was occupied by the germans and all of it was returned after WW2.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:45 pm

    That is really a generalisation/simplification.

    That guy has clearly an understanding of politics and at the same time not liking capitalism doesn't mean he is automatically pro-communism.

    And to be quite honest, to talk with polish people about WW2 is like talking to a parrot that learned only to swear. Poland took after the october "revolution" in russia russian cities from belarus and ukraine and Soviet Union took exact this cities and region parts back, also defacto like he said even from another perspective Poland did not exist during that time anymore. After WW1 when both countries russia and germany were weakened France granted illegaly to poland to get russian soil and same about german soil. This was created under directive of Brits to make tensions and provocate future conflicts. Germany is hated by the Brits since they challanged their status quo as an Empire and collonial force and have hurtened british economy by outproducing/trading them in short time. Like the massmurder Churchill wrote to Stalin in a letter "I don't have a war with Hitler, i have a war with Germany". And in another letter "Germany has to be destroyed once and for all."

    That guy isn't pro soviet union since the first 2 sentences state it quite obvious.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:49 pm

    Yes, the Stalinist regime was brutal and looking out for its own interests.

    So what, so was everyone. Poland nibbled off parts of Czechoslovakia, so much for "peace loving".

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  zg18 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:53 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I'm so tired of hearing the capitalist lie that "the commies helped hitler"  Rolling Eyes The soviet "invasion" of Poland was the returning of belorussian  and Ukrainian land originally occupied and ravaged by Poland in 1920 due to its micro imperialistic ambitions. Also the soviets entered there after the polish government fleed which made it cease to exist. The real Poland was occupied by the germans and all of it was returned after WW2.

    Vilnius/Wilno at that time was a Polish city , taken by USSR and given to Lithuania. Historically Lithuanian but Polonized over time , it`s part of territory that can be considered as theft from Poland.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:24 am

    The non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union... read the words carefully... NON AGGRESSION PACT.

    An agreement not to step on each others toes.

    Hardly the basis for a friendship or alliance.


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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:27 am

    GarryB wrote:The non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union... read the words carefully... NON AGGRESSION PACT.

    An agreement not to step on each others toes.

    Hardly the basis for a friendship or alliance.

    Yes westerner or just anti-russian/soviet minded people love to twist it into Alliance of axis of evil but at same time financing terrorists, telling them to go into a certain country to blow up citizens is not related with being themselfs terrorist and warmonger, western double standards and hypocrazy.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:28 pm

    The Baltic states all had political elections where the Communist parties won and all decided to join the Soviet Union. As for Finland, they declined two pacts of mutual assistance with the SU, and they fired mortar shells into Soviet territory, which killed Red army soldiers, sparking a war
    BS. He must be deluded, how come authoritarian government we had in Baltics could even allow elections when communist parties where banned and shunned. We had idiotic military junta, but still 100 better than what we got from traitors under Stalins boot. It was ULTIMATUM and ten OCCUPATION.
    We probably deserved what was coming, I mean second occupation, but can't say same thing about Latvians or Estonians, they are truly victims.
    And yeah Finland attacking SU is like Paris Hilton attacking Brock Lesnar. Sheesh.


    Last edited by Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:The non aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union... read the words carefully... NON AGGRESSION PACT.

    An agreement not to step on each others toes.

    Hardly the basis for a friendship or alliance.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Boundary_and_Friendship_Treaty

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:20 pm

    Yes, sure wikishmedia the worst source when it comes to history or military matters.

    Self created articles.

    Non Aggression Pact means, i don't smack your skull against the wall when you rob every neighbour in my neighbourhood, except me.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:17 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Yes, sure wikishmedia the worst source when it comes to history or military matters.

    Self created articles.

    Non Aggression Pact means, i don't smack your skull against the wall when you rob every neighbour in my neighbourhood, except me.
    Well maybe You right, cause it only leads to couple sources and it doesn't look like a real deal, but so called fake friendship was there. Wasn't same like with Japanese. Both sides pretended they will not stab each other in the back. Cooperation after 35 was minimal and ideologies where alraedy clashing in propaganda battle. It happened to be Germans who broke their word it first. Soviet union was comparably weak at that time, would Hitler give Stalin couple years to reform there would be no Blitzkrieg or it would be going his way.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:12 pm

    Regular wrote:Latvians or Estonians, they are truly victims.

    Sure buddy, heard that one before.

    Meanwhile when ze Germans arrived to liberate the oppressed Baltic peoples; they entered villages to be greeted with signs along the lines of 'already Juden-free' and so on, the locals were keen to get the dirty business over and done with ahead of the arrival of the German columns - sparing those all the hard work. How nice  Twisted Evil

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:21 pm

    On the subject, you know what REALLY grinds my gears? Like seriously rustles them?

    When Poles say USSR was worse than Germany. Makes me wish the Red Army stopped at the borders of Poland during the war. Thousands of Soviet troops would have lived...oh and the Germans would have finished off what was left of Poland, but hey, they are better than USSR right Smile. I guess then there wouldn't be any whiny Poles to cry about the USSR today, but I am okay with that.

    No but seriously. Stalin was a monster, and the Soviet regime was terrible. The Soviet people suffered the most from it while we are at it.
    But holy shit, everytime I hear "Soviets just as bad as Germans!" I think to myself....is there a retard gene in Eastern Europe?


    Oh and, wahhh teh rapes wahhhh.
    Germany is lucky to exist AT ALL after what they pulled.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:59 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Regular wrote:Latvians or Estonians, they are truly victims.

    Sure buddy, heard that one before.

    Meanwhile when ze Germans arrived to liberate the oppressed Baltic peoples; they entered villages to be greeted with signs along the lines of 'already Juden-free' and so on, the locals were keen to get the dirty business over and done with ahead of the arrival of the German columns - sparing those all the hard work. How nice  Twisted Evil
    I'm pretty sure it was Lithuanians, not them who started killing jews before Germans started organizing it, but it's bit more complicated  pale
    There is nothing I can say to defend this and I hate that it's taboo in my country. 
    Just some things that would paint this terrible picture-
    Germans where actually in Lithuania when first pogrom started and they had their blessing on it and SS covert groups helped with logistics as well. There where so many radical militias, fascists, nationalists running loose. Before that they where kept at check by moderate nationalist Smetona and later by Soviets. 
    First killings where done by rogue band of Algirdas Klimaitis. After the war he left for Germany and never been persecuted. He said that he was forced by . He died happily on 1988. 
    Population was anti Jewish but not to that point where such things would be acceptable. Jews where here for ages and pretty much was one of the most successful people, in business and culture alike. Most of them lived in the cities. Country side rednecks where easy to find, economy was non existed and scapegoat was here. 
    But then again killings and round ups where done by local militias and not village folks with pitchforks.
    Transitional government deformed most of rogue bands and merged them to battalions, but that didn't stop them from killing and later even institutions where involved in pogroms.
    Unknowingly to those local nazis, Germans needed this land for Germanisation, after war most of those "heroes" would have made into fertilizer. 
    Genocide in 3 years did more damage to our country than over 10 years of Soviet deportations.

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    Re: A problem in identification, Educate me

    Post  Regular on Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:16 pm

    TR1 wrote:On the subject, you know what REALLY grinds my gears? Like seriously rustles them?

    When Poles say USSR was worse than Germany. Makes me wish the Red Army stopped at the borders of Poland during the war. Thousands of Soviet troops would have lived...oh and the Germans would have finished off what was left of Poland, but hey, they are better than USSR right Smile. I guess then there wouldn't be any whiny Poles to cry about the USSR today, but I am okay with that.

    No but seriously. Stalin was a monster, and the Soviet regime was terrible. The Soviet people suffered the most from it while we are at it.
    But holy shit, everytime I hear "Soviets just as bad as Germans!" I think to myself....is there a retard gene in Eastern Europe?


    Oh and, wahhh teh rapes wahhhh.
    Germany is lucky to exist AT ALL after what they pulled.
    Well under Stalin it wasn't all pies and cakes. NKVD was bad as cancer. From personal story, my grand grand father said that Russian soldiers who went westwards to Germany warned about them.  
    But then again, how long did Germans stay and how long Soviets? Maybe it's true, Soviet occupation for 50 years was as bad as 5 years of Nazi occupation. 
    And yeah rape was serious problem, but it's not like Soviets didn't deal with that, You could get court martial if You would steal a bike or carpet and soldiers where executed because of rapes as well, especially in Berlin. Armija Krajowa on their nationalistic safari weren't acting like virgin angels in Vilnius as well. Not to mention Nazi friends from Hungry and Romania and their crimes in Russia.
    If You they blame someone they should prepare to take the blame as well. But to be a victim is more comforting.

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