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    Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

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    GarryB
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:33 am

    From that I understood:

    1) Stealth on some Tu-160 components (like fans) was already present from the first built Tu-160?


    From the first model Tu-160 aerodynamics was top priority because it needed to be a mach 2 bomber... RCS reduction was also important and a lot of work was done to reduce it but it wasn't the primary focus.

    The result is reduced detection ranges, not actual stealth as such.

    2) The stealth on a Russian strategic bomber is considered important, but not essential. Correct?
    As an example the sharp Mig-25 air intakes on the Tu-22M3 increased RCS from the front by something like 25%, but they accepted that because of the increase in flight performance they got with that change and the new engines.

    Also keep in mind... these are all mainly cruise missile carriers that will deliver weapons from significant standoff distances.

    A minor reduction in RCS that reduces detection range from 5,000km to 4,200km can be rather more significant due to flight speed and therefore the amount of time it will be visible to enemy radar... if the aircraft can get in... launch its missiles and leave before enemy fighters are scrambled in time to intercept it will remain safe even if it is seen.

    3) When on display at the air shows, the ground crews put on the covers on the engine intakes on the Tu-160s also because of the stealth measures in the turbofans?
    Yes, though it also prevents FOD issues as well.

    4) Some Tu-160s (10, maybe more) were sent to an upgrade program that also includes stealth.

    Correct?
    You cant add stealth to an existing design... actual stealth has to be a design priority from the start and can be ruined if the focus wanders.

    They have said that by 2020 they should have about 10 more operational Tu-160Ms unless one or more are lost in accidents.

    You can take that to mean a few different things... either the fleet will be reduced to 10 aircraft, all of which will be Tu-160Ms, or of the 16 operational Tu-160s 6 have already been given upgrades so from now till 2020 just 10 remaining aircraft need the upgrade to have 16 Tu-160Ms in operational service (assuming no losses... touch wood).

    With the upgrade they will improve (reduce) the RCS further, but it will never be stealthy as such.

    Again, is the Tu-95MS a Tu-142?
    In the 1970s they upgraded the design of the Tu-95 to improve its wing design and aerodynamic efficiency and improve performance. The new design was called Tu-142 and the new planes built in the 1980s and 1990s were of the new improved design.

    The Tu-95MS bombers in service now are of this new design.

    Could the Bear-H receive RAM materials?

    Could the Tu-22M receive RAM?
    Yes, and they probably will take the time to replace some parts and update some materials and add RAM here and there where the RCS levels are particularly high because it wouldn't cost much but the result would be rather worth it.

    Think about it in terms of the laws of diminished returns... in a modern airliner it is the engines and avionics that have made the greatest progress in terms of flight efficiency since the late 1930s, so if you wanted to upgrade a plane from that period replacing the engines would be a good place to start to get the most bang for your money.

    The next area will be improved wing shape and then new materials and with a few more dollars spent you would end up with about the best design you could manage without a complete redesign.

    The problem of course is that aircraft of that period had straight wings which is not ideal at high subsonic speed.

    You could make the propeller blades composite and radar transparent, and lots of other changes, but the cost might not make the bomber that much more effective in its role as bomb truck or cruise missile carrier yet it might increase purchase and operational costs to make it too expensive to use.

    With a plane like a Mig-29A you would examine the design in terms of radar returns and look for all the corner reflectors that give off strong signals... many areas you can reshape and add RAM... if you take away 4 or 5 strong reflecting areas you can dramatically reduce the RCS of the aircraft, but after you have dealt with the obvious problem areas then further reductions become much much harder and also orders of magnitude more expensive too.

    Changing a design will never result in a signature as low as a plane custom designed from scratch can achieve but it is cheaper unless stealth is the goal.

    The Tu-22M3s intakes greatly increase the RCS and a few changes in shape and materials and the application of RAM could greatly reduce the RCS, but the Tu-22M3M is never going to be a stealthy aircraft, so you don't want to spend all the upgrade money on that when new engines and new weapons and new radar can have a much more significant effect on its performance... stealth can be a money pit that will suck up all the money you have if you let it.

    Many thanks, but sorry if I insist, it isn't that I don't believe you, but if possible do you have some source to show me about the Tu-160 stealthy? (Also in Russian language).
    Stealthy is too strong a word.

    Stealth implies they can't see you, the Tu-160 is designed to use lower RCS with speed so they can't see it till it is too late to do anything about it.

    Even the wiki entry says that...

    Although the Tu-160 was designed for reduced detectability to both radar and infrared, it is not a stealth aircraft.
    The purpose is not to allow it to fly over US soil with impunity, it is to delay the moment of detection x thousand kms off the US coast... it is not to reduce detection range to single or double digits but to reduce them to 3 digits from 4...


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:52 am

    my point was if you need a cruise missile carrier then tu-95 is good enough ,no point in wasting billions on white elephant like tu-160 which only advantage is -its faster. its in such a low numbers that using its airframes for conventional operations could endanger the nuclear capability. and so far it hasnt been used at all. the tu-95 remains the backbone ,with many versions for maritime and other purposes -unlike tu-160 !
    They all need replacing... the Tu-160 is more than just faster... it can carry much heavier payloads further than the Tu-95, and its weapon bays are huge too allowing it all to be carried internally which does not effect flight speed or range.

    The point is that they would love another 50 tu-160s and if they had them they would probably retire the other aircraft, but they haven't.

    They are going to keep all three aircraft in service with upgrades to make them more useful and in 2025 the replacement for all three will be entering service.

    Where is the problem?


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:30 am


    "Those two birds, mentioned in this thread, were detected as soon as Norway. Perhaps even before, and they were escorted by NATO fighters along Scandinavia. You do know tu-160s didn't carry any weapons, don't you? This should give you a pretty good image of how far they would get in case of war. Or you think the USN CBGs, the French Navy's CBG, the Canadian Navy, the UK Navy, the Scandinavian Navies and all their airborne ISRs would simply chill out while a strategic bomber fully armed flies westward to the US. And every SPY-1 ship covering the Atlantic approach routes would mysteriously shut their sensors down. Aha."  
    You clearly do not understand the difference between peacetime and war time,  In a war time russia could have taken a different  routes,( have you ever seen how big is Russia?)  other than flying *withing few miles of NORWAy coast *  and do flight in a different way. You clearly do not understand the difference detecting something and stoping it. You can detect a robber pointing a gun to you ,but that doesnt means that police will arrive on time to stop the assault.. NONE of this detections or interceptions you talk happens BEFORE the plane is at Range to launch its missiles. and this is your major failure .In case of a Major nuclear War ,in the worst case for russia ,none of this "invincible" countries you talk about will be able to shot down the Tu-160 BEFORE they launch all its nuclear missiles.


    "The Kh-22M Burya which travels @4.6M @80000ft altitude. Its sole platform so far is the TU-22M. Even if carried by TU-160M, its range is up to 550km, and only when launched in a HA fashion. That's easily detectable and 550km away from the coast is also within the reach of the interceptors which puts bombers into jeopardy. The kh-55/555/101/102 are all subsonic and travel up to 3000km. Even if their range is greater it makes no difference. They would still need to go for a HA launch which makes the missiles detectable and cued for intercept when they close on the coast."
    Again You clearly do not understand the difference detecting something and defeating it. You could detect a Tu-160 from many hundreds km miles away but can you stop the missiles before they are launched ? Remember the Tu-160 carry nuclear missiles with 300km to 3,000 km range. And planes will not be able to stop a massive attack of missiles ,those have to stopped by Land defenses
    means the NUCLEAR missiles will get VERY CLOSE to US coast even if they intercepted. the Kh-15 missiles that carry the Tu-160 for example fly at mach 5.0 and a massive attack of them will be very painful for any country or nation.. they can cover 100km in ~60 seconds.  and 300km is about 3minutes.   THere is many aways to defeat any radars that you have no idea about.. why included the
    nuclear deterrence link. Even a fishing boat with a nuclear cruise missile can be used for a surprise attack of US coast. or a nuclear early detonation also can be used to blind radars and later launch missiles after it..



    "They would have to launch over the sea from afar. There's no mountains to speak of. Curvature of the earth? In order to achieve the missile's long range and avoid being intercepted themselves, the tu-160s would need to launch at HA. The curvature is irrelevant in that case."  
    The curvature of earth is VERY RELEVANT
    because. the plane can hide beyond it.. None of your radars Land radars will detect any plane or missile that hides beyond the curvature of earth .  So clearly your wrong. Earth is not flat ,in case you didn't knew ,and it is possible to hide for radars by flying low ,but very curved ,THis curvature begins to show every 50km of distance.  and the more farther the object the bigger is the curvature .. if your far enough withing many thousands km away you could end in the opposite side of earth of the place you want to bomb..not. Radars cannot detect ANYTHING that hides under this curvature. P E R I O D. Because the same planet surface hides things over long distance close to the surface.  This is a  disadvantages of ALL Sam defenses ,that the terrain they operate is never flat ,neither the earth is flat.. .This is how 2 lonely rusty ARgentinan old Airforce planes defeated a war ship convoy of the Royal Navy in the Falklands war ,Obsolete planes defeated the best technology defenses at that time.. A Tu-160 will have no problems to Hide from NATO and US defenses in a time of war flying close to the artic or some special zones ,no radar will detect it  at  more than 300-400km km ranges. ,The earth curvature is just one way to avoid detection , As other have told you they also have radar neutralizing materials ,that lower the planes signature at distance too . If they have been detected by Norway and Colombia is simply because they were not hiding at all ..just flying normally , notice how Colmbia complains that a TU-160 -flew OVER-its territory.- means they were unable to stop them before they got inside of it. So Colombia/US defenses failed since the Russian bombers penetrated its airspace. .As a matter of FAct the TU-160's have been before withing just a dozen of miles withing  US territory , or totally invaded it..  there is lots High irregular terrain over Alaska and over the artic.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/russians-claim-bomber-flights-over-us-territory-went-undetected-206145/

    The Russian air force proved the capabilities of its upgraded Tupolev Tu-160 bombers earlier this year, when they flew undetected through US airspace during military excercises, the Russian news agency RIA Novosti is claiming. The aircraft flew through the US-controlled sector of the Arctic unchallenged, the country's commander of long-range strategic bombers, Lt Gen Igor Khvorov says. Khorov said that during the military exercises in April, the bombers and Tu-95s had successfully carried out four launches of Tu-95MS cruise missile. RIA Novosti says the US Air Force is now investigating why its military was unable to detect the Russian bombers. "They were unable to detect the aircraft either with radars or visually," says Khvorov.

    The success of the missions has convinced Moscow to aquire two additional Tu-160s for the long-range bomber fleet by the end of the year, Khorov said.  The air force has delayed investing in full stealth capability on cost grounds, preferring better camouflage on the Tu-160s.  The first of the new-build Tu-160s was delivered just prior to the incident, from the Kazan aircraft plant.
    "They would have to launch over the sea from afar. There's no mountains to speak of. Curvature of the earth? In order to achieve the missile's long range and avoid being intercepted themselves, the tu-160s would need to launch at HA. The curvature is irrelevant in that case."
    Are you sure there are no mountains over alaska and the artic? LOL   The planes can fly low enough to evade radars ,then when they are at their perfect place and launch their subsonic nuclear missiles or if they need to ascend to launch a high altitude missile they can do it too ,by the time the pilot is called for the mission and take off from a military airport to intercept a plane that suddenly pops on radar (ready to launch its missiles) 100km-300km away it will be too late if we remember that hypersonic missiles can travel 300km distance in ~5minutes. The only thing irrelevant here are your opinions.


    Maybe, in the comic books. They cannot fly low right from the Engels. Just as those two that went to Venezuela, they are always detected early on and tracked most of their flight. In case of war, the solution for intercept would be ready depending on their approach path. I hope you realize how little these machines would accomplish in trying to destroy the US coasts. You reasoning is not only fundamentally flawed, but you have also stacked the odds heavily in Russia's favor which is unrealistic.
    Clearly your just a Fanboy ,that believe NATO cannot be touched. Just like it was believed the F-117 could not be defeated until it was.  The fact of the matter is that US will not be able to detect or intercept any TU-160 in a time of war before a big formation of them launch FIRST  The possibilities are Endless for Russian strategic bombers ,could carry secretly Electronic counter measures to defeat missiles too.. or launch decoys with identical signature of the plane to fool any incoming missile.  And The Curvature of earth DO MATTERS  and US will not be able to defend of a massive attack of a many hundreds of them , with so short time.  With Just one who manage to enter will be catastrophic . Clearly Russia is not looking to intentionally bomb anyone , they only do this as Deterrence to US or NATO ,to show Russia do have the capabilities to launch a massive nuclear strike with very little time to counter it.
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    George1
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:24 pm

    Venezuela to Buy Russian, Chinese Weaponry - Leader

    MEXICO CITY, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro has announced plans to buy new batches of weapons made in Russia and China to increase the country’s military might.

    “I spoke with Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping, and very soon commissions are to start work to include [to purchase plan] cutting-edge weaponry to reinforce the military and technical equipment and weapons systems of this country,” Maduro was quoted by Noticias24 as saying.

    Director General of the Centre for Analysis of World Arms Trade Igor Korotchenko told RIA Novosti earlier that in the period of 2012 to 2015 Venezuela is expected to become the second-largest importer of Russian weapons, with sales reaching up to $3.2 billion.

    In 2005-2009, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed over 30 contracts with Venezuela on weapons supplies.

    Venezuela received Russian air defense systems (Antey-2500, Pechora-2M, Buk and Igla) as well as T-72M tanks, Grad and Smerch multiple rocket launcher systems, armored vehicles and artillery.
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    AMX-13 APC with Russian-made turret MB2-04

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:54 am



    Arrow Venezuela to modernize French-made AMX-13 APC with Russian-made turret MB2-04
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:27 am

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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:32 am

    Russian defense minister to pay first visit to Venezuela

    MOSCOW, February 11. /TASS/. Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu sets off on a three-day Latin American tour during which he will visit Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba, a Defense Ministry spokesman has said.

    Shoigu is due to visit Caracas on Wednesday, where he will hold talks with his Venezuelan counterpart Vladimir Padrino Lopez and meet with Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said.

    "During the meetings, the sides will discuss topical issues of military and military-technical cooperation of the two countries, and also exchange views on the key issues of global and regional security," Konashenkov said.

    A military and diplomatic source told TASS "no agreements or contracts on the supplies of Russian weapons and equipment to Venezuela are planned to be signed." After visiting Caracas, Shoigu will fly to Nicaragua, the source said.
    Russia-Venezuela military & defense cooperation

    Last February, Shoigu said Russia planned to expand its military presence in a number of foreign countries, including in Venezuela. The minister said this was essential for the Russian Navy to be able to call at their ports to service its ships.

    Shoigu also said Russia’s long-range aircraft could use their air bases for refuelling.

    Russia and Venezuela began expanding their military-technical cooperation after Hugo Chavez took power in Venezuela in 1999. Venezuela earlier purchased weapons and military equipment from the United States, Europe and Israel.

    Russia has now become the main supplier of weapons for Venezuela. The cooperation in this sphere is based on an intergovernmental agreement signed in May 2011 in Moscow.

    According to Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport, in spring 2013 Russia’s contracts with Venezuela were estimated at $11 billion. Venezuela has ordered 24 Su-30MK2 multi-role fighter aircraft and some 40 helicopters, including Mi-35M attack helicopters, and also 12 Tor-M1 missile systems.

    Russia has also supplied to Venezuela 100,000 Kalashnikov AK-103 assault rifles and helps the country to build a plant on a licensed assembly of the weapons. However, the completion of the construction has been delayed several times.

    Venezuela is currently hit by the economic crisis due to the plunging prices for oil since it represents over 96% of the country’s exports.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:02 pm

    Venezuelan, Russian Troops Stage Large-Scale Military Exercises

    The Venezuelan Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino Lopez said that the nation's military is conducting massive air defense and artillery drills involving visiting Russian troops and hardware.

    MEXICO CITY (Sputnik) — The Venezuelan military is conducting massive air defense and artillery drills involving visiting Russian troops and hardware, the nation's Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino Lopez said Saturday.

    The 10-day war games have been ordered by Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, who spoke of pressure coming from the United States earlier this month.

    The Venezuelan government has been concerned about US President Barack Obama's new executive order, published Monday, which described the South American country as "unusual and extraordinary threat" to US national security and foreign policy.

    Around 10,000 Venezuelan troops are taking part in the massive military exercises, which also involve Chinese crews, according to Venezuela's Noticias24 website.

    The drills come in the wake of a February visit by Russia's Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, who discussed military and technical cooperation with his Venezuelan counterpart in Caracas.

    Venezuelan forces have shown increased interest in Russian military aid. Russian-made military equipment has substantially strengthened the capacity of Venezuela's armed forces, according to Lopez.

    Russia is actively pursuing defence cooperation with South American countries, which includes the sales of weaponry, the construction of naval maintenance and resupply facilities, as well as the occasional use of local airbases for hosting Russian strategic bombers on global patrol missions.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150314/1019503447.html#ixzz3USzyOQOV
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:03 am

    Venezuelan, Russian Troops Stage Large-Scale Military Exercises

    The Venezuelan Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino Lopez said that the nation's military is conducting massive air defense and artillery drills involving visiting Russian troops and hardware.

    MEXICO CITY (Sputnik) — The Venezuelan military is conducting massive air defense and artillery drills involving visiting Russian troops and hardware, the nation's Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino Lopez said Saturday.

    The 10-day war games have been ordered by Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, who spoke of pressure coming from the United States earlier this month.

    The Venezuelan government has been concerned about US President Barack Obama's new executive order, published Monday, which described the South American country as "unusual and extraordinary threat" to US national security and foreign policy.

    Around 10,000 Venezuelan troops are taking part in the massive military exercises, which also involve Chinese crews, according to Venezuela's Noticias24 website.

    The drills come in the wake of a February visit by Russia's Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, who discussed military and technical cooperation with his Venezuelan counterpart in Caracas.

    Venezuelan forces have shown increased interest in Russian military aid. Russian-made military equipment has substantially strengthened the capacity of Venezuela's armed forces, according to Lopez.

    Russia is actively pursuing defence cooperation with South American countries, which includes the sales of weaponry, the construction of naval maintenance and resupply facilities, as well as the occasional use of local airbases for hosting Russian strategic bombers on global patrol missions.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150314/1019503447.html#ixzz3V6iFgEQX
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:40 am

    Russia speaks of fraud after persistent delays in the opening of the Kalashnikov rifle factory in Venezuela

    (Defensa.com) The establishment in Venezuela of a factory of Kalashnikov assault rifles and ammunition accumulated delays announced in 2006 that make uncertain the opening date. In Russia even research committee studying delays of this plant, which was scheduled to be launched between 2009 and 2010, has been accused of fraud Sergey Popelniujov former senator, whose company was awarded the construction of the plant. The committee considers that the situation affects the reputation of Russia in the arms market in Latin America.

    The Russian daily Kommersant estimated at $ 18 million the amount of what the employer would have stolen the program, which would have an impact on the backlog. In fact the plant has not yet begun to operate at full capacity and who can doubt this year. In 2006 an agreement between Venezuela and Russia announced to build a factory assault rifles AK-103 and AK-104 plus ammunition for these calibres 7.62x39 mm. This would have to start its activity from the fourth quarter of 2009 and the first of 2010, though the deadlines were extended and in 2012 it was announced that the plant was only 60%. The latest news is December last year when Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, warned of strange incidents in the construction of the plant and announced that the contractor would change and initiate investigations to clarify the cause of the delay. The plant should provide work for 800 people and would be able to produce 25,000 assault rifles per year, supplying arms to Venezuela and being able to export to other Latin American markets. The plant is being built in facilities Compania Anonima Venezolana de Industrias Militares (CAVIM) in the city of Maracay, state of Aragua. (JNG)

    http://www.defensa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15885:rusia-habla-de-fraude-tras-los-persistentes-retrasos-en-la-apertura-de-la-fabrica-de-fusiles-kalashnikov-en-venezuela-&catid=55:latinoamerica&Itemid=163


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:39 pm

    Venezuelan Military Delegation Trains in Siberia - Russian Defense Ministry


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:35 pm

    "Venezuela will purchase at least 12 fighter jets from Russia, President Nicolas Maduro said Sunday. "I will talk to [Russian] President Vladimir Putin to deliver at least 12 new [Sukhoi] Su [fighter jets] to Venezuela and replace the one lost [on Friday]," Maduro said as quoted by the Noticias24 news website. On Friday, a Venezuelan Air Force Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jet crashed on the country's border with Columbia. The Venezuelan government also plans to sign a contract with China on military equipment delivery, the president added. The equipment will be used to fight drug trafficking, particularly from Colombia, according to him."




    Maybe they will try to obtain SU35 as some were mentioning few years ago.

    Source: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150921/1027280758.html#ixzz3pOTkvPNc
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:58 am

    Construction of Kalashnikov Plants to Complete in Venezuela by 2017

    The construction of two plants for Russian arms manufacturer Kalashnikov Concern will be completed in Venezuela in 2016-2017, the Russian ambassador to the country said.

    MEXICO CITY (Sputnik) – In 2005, Russia and Venezuela signed a deal for the construction of a Kalashnikov assembly factory and a munitions plant. Construction of the factories been repeatedly delayed.

    "Certainly, the project has been rehabilitated, a new Russian contractor has been chosen, its representatives have already been here, they met the Venezuelans, the works will restart in the beginning of next year," Vladimir Zayemsky told RIA Novosti.

    According to the official, one of the plants should be completed by the end of next year, while the construction of the other is scheduled to finish in late 2017. It was not specified as to whether the weapon or the ammunition factory would be completed first.

    "In reality, everything is 70 percent complete, one factory will produce assault rifles, the other – ammunition for them," Zayemsky added.

    The Kalashnikov Concern was created in 2013 in a merger of two Soviet-era plants, Izmash and Izhmekh, and became Russia’s largest producer of rifles and other small arms weaponry. The company exports its guns and other arms to 27 countries, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Germany, Norway, Italy, Canada, Kazakhstan and Thailand.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20151201/1031030388/venezuela-kalashnikov-plants.html#ixzz3t3P1sJxG


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  George1 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:20 pm

    Venezuela received the first four refurbished Mi-35M

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1816884.html


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