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    Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

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    SOC
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  SOC on Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:19 pm

    Giulio wrote:Hello.
    If possible:
    1) Is it possible know the Tu-160 route over the Central America? If they came from the East. where are they passed for landing in Venezuela? Over Mexico?
    2) Is the Il-96 also a tanker?
    3) What's writen on the Tu-160 nose?
    4) Why the yellow/blue stripes on the nose? Ukrainian colors?? Thanks.
    1. Don't know.

    2. No.

    3. Aleksander Golovanov, they name the Tu-160s after famous Russians.

    4. Russian air force colors.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:36 pm

    Many thanks! So they are named like the Navy ships?
    1) If possible, what's the name of the other one Tu-160?
    2) Hot and moist conditions in Venezuela require changes in the flight operations?
    3) The orizontal bars at the nose gear are anti-splash spoilers?
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  SOC on Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:54 pm

    Giulio wrote:Many thanks! So they are named like the Navy ships?
    1) If possible, what's the name of the other one Tu-160?
    2) Hot and moist conditions in Venezuela require changes in the flight operations?
    3) The orizontal bars at the nose gear are anti-splash spoilers?
    1. Don't know, haven't found a clear enough image.

    2. Based on my experience with at least the hot part of things in the Middle East, usually it means a lighter loading. No issue for the BLACKJACK, just take off and refuel.

    3. Which ones? Next to the tires along the ground: anti-splash fairings. Above the tires on the gear column: steering mechanism and anti-shimmy rods.

    Incidentally, these two dudes have now left Venezuela and are in Nicaragua.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:44 pm

    Nicaragua?? I didn't know!!! Very interesting thing for me. So maybe that they flew from the Pacific Ocean to the Caribbean Sea, flying over the Nicaragua Airspace?

    Is the Tu-160 "Aleksandr Golovanov" the Tu-160 number 05?


    If possible. In the "West" the Tu-160 is commonly know as "Blackjack". In Russia I understood: "White Swan", "белый лебедь". Correct?? Thanks.

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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  a89 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:26 pm

    1) If possible, what's the name of the other one Tu-160?
    Alexandr Novikov, former commander of VVS during WW2.



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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  SOC on Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:42 pm

    Giulio wrote:Nicaragua?? I didn't know!!! Very interesting thing for me. So maybe that they flew from the Pacific Ocean to the Caribbean Sea, flying over the Nicaragua Airspace?
    No, they flew down the Atlantic to get to Venezuela, at one point coming close to Norway. What this means is that they may fly back to Russia through the Pacific, or they could always cross back over to the Atlantic.

    Giulio wrote:Is the Tu-160 "Aleksandr Golovanov" the Tu-160 number 05?
    Yes, 05 red; Novikov is 12 red.

    Giulio wrote:If possible. In the "West" the Tu-160 is commonly know as "Blackjack". In Russia I understood: "White Swan", "белый лебедь". Correct?? Thanks.
    Correct!
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:01 am

    2) Is the Il-96 also a tanker?
    That Il-96 wont be a tanker aircraft, but they are planning to produce Il-96 based tanker aircraft with greater fuel capacity than the Il-78s are capable of carrying so for the future it is possible to perhaps fly to Cuba and back without landing anywhere.

    The NATO codename is actually the ASCC codename (Air Standardisation Coordination Committee) which included the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, and decided on new codenames for Soviet/Russian aircraft.

    A priority was that they should not sound similar to each other or other names of aircraft and used a limited set of rules.

    For instance names starting with B were bombers, and two syllable names were jet propelled, so the Bear is a bomber that uses turboprops, while the Blackjack is jet powered.


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:37 pm

    spotter wrote:My friend, you live in the 1970s lol No offence, ofc.
    Should i remind you there are other birds built with a nuclear delivery in mind, yet, those planes now employ the full array of advanced conventional punch?
    Oh not ,dear friend, how could i ever feel offended for maintaining such a so strictly rational position.......above all taking in consideration that i am in a so good company ,such as the entire US Air Force Command and the US Strategic Deterrence and Nuclear Integration Department  Smile .

    I want to presume that, irony apart, you are perfectly aware that just today, the US is engaged in the most extensive nuclear deterrence delivery system and weapon's modernization plan of the last decades with urgent modifications to such .....anachronistic and inefficient relics of 1960 years like  B-61 nuclear gravity bomb   Laughing 

    Even more, the future LRS-B strategic bomber program and LRSO cruise missile program are shaped around and have just efficient nuclear deterrence optimization as theirs first and leading technical requirement.

    LRSO in particular is conceived to finally provide (within a decade) the B-2A Spirit with just a.....surrogate.....of those critical strategic nuclear cruise missile delivering capability ,indispensable at confront an advanced enemy IAD  (outside the very abrupt shifting ,in the B-2's development phase ,from an high altitude main attack profile requirement to a low altitude one ,so to provide it at least with some chance to deliver ,still in one piece, its.......gravity bombs , after 9-10 hours of journey from CONUS Laughing....against an enemy equipping itself with some of the SAM systems that where emerging at the time) that you have get the courage to label as a legacy of a Cold War mindset.  


    Those are the words of Dr. Billy W. Mullins, Associate Assistant Chief of Staff, Strategic Deterrence and Nuclear Integration :

    "Regardless of the warhead chosen, the future bomber will carry LRSO, as will the B-52 fleet, and the service's B-2s, he said. In the case of the latter,  LRSO will give the stealth bombers a nuclear standoff capability to carry out missions in heavy air defense environments, he noted."
    http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pages/2013/January%202013/January%2018%202013/CruiseMissileWarheadPickComing.aspx


    Delivering of JDAMs in Kosovo War against Serbia (the unique high altitude air defense of which was represented by export version of '60 years SA-3 and 10 barely flight-worthy MiG-29B) moreover with an huge complements of corollary aircraft and covering, for each single mission , ridiculous intercontinental distances, before return to its usual very long and costly maintenance operations in climatic controlled "ad-hoc" hangars, represented ANYTHING except a good example of cost-efficient delivery of high precision conventional fire power. Same story with Iraq in 2003.

    Tu-160 or Tu-22M3 could have completed the same missions, in those "heavenly" benign environments, at a fraction of the costs and of time employing the more precise KAB-1500/500Kr ; the question is that even this employment of high cost conventional ammunitions by part of very high cost assets such as long range bombers is considered by Federation's analysts terribly cost-inefficient and time inefficient.

    For regional conflicts against largely inferior enemies, the high-precision air delivered component of the required fire power, where necessary, will be provided by mission-optimized aircraft like SU-34s and SU-22M with SVP-24 "Gefest" possibly even still employing the immensely huge and variegated stock of unguided bombs , corrected to an acceptable CEP thanks to the task-optimized aiming systems and the enviable flight's stability of the delivering platforms.

    Now THIS represent truly cost-efficient solutions for exert air-delivered conventional fire power against immensely inferior enemies totally incapable to defend themselves. Rolling Eyes   

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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  spotter on Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:25 pm

    @Mindstorm:
    Now you are trying to superimpose the US conops onto the Russian one. In my opinion that's incorrect cause Russian budget and operational strategic needs are nowhere as near as that of the US.
    Mindstorm wrote:
    the question is that even this employment of high cost conventional ammunitions by part of very high cost assets such as long range bombers is considered by Federation's analysts terribly cost-inefficient and time inefficient.
    Precisely.
    Mindstorm wrote:
    For regional conflicts against largely inferior enemies, the high-precision air delivered component of the required fire power, where necessary, will be provided by mission-optimized aircraft like SU-34s and SU-22M with SVP-24 "Gefest" possibly even still employing the immensely huge and variegated stock of unguided bombs , corrected to an acceptable CEP thanks to the task-optimized aiming systems and the enviable flight's stability of the delivering platforms.
    And that would be my whole point. I don't know if you realize but what you just said is the strongest possible confirmation of my words. You played into my hands, a sort of. The only conflict that Russia may find itself in a foreseeable future, against a largely inferior opponent, is already well covered by the very capable machine as the su-34, su-25sm and su-24m. You mentioned su-22? I guess you mixed up something.

    @Vann7:
    There are so many faults in your reasoning that i don't even know where to start from. Before we move any further, please try to research more on the basic mechanics in today's world.
    I joined this forum cause there are some people that know every bit of info about technical aspects of the Russian military so i could learn something new. If i wanted to join a fanboyish forum i would go somewhere else.
    In the world with interconnected economies and trade, so dependable on each other, you talk about a nuclear engagement with the NATO? The Russian economy structure is far from being strong cause they vastly depend on the export of energy and very little final products. Who do you think they sell their gas&oil? Do you have any idea whatsoever how many western companies are engaged with the Russian arms industry? Do you realize that Russia imports the P&W engines? The Turbomeca's engines? The French electro-optronics? They even use the Texas Instrument's chips. Ever heard of a joint enterprise with Augusta Westlands? With Canadian airplane maker? And all the sudden you would launch a nuclear attack on them all?
    As much as the Russian officials try to hide it, the primary hypothetical strategic threat for Russia comes from a country real close to its borders. Cause they have a frozen territorial dispute. But even that country is investing into the Russian energy sector and getting their economies interconnected as well.

    Since i wanna honor you with a full answer, let us now assume you were right. For some mysterious clandestine reasons, there's an impending nuclear holocaust. And the Russian MoD decides their RSMF and SSBNs are not enough so they scramble the Blackjacks.
    Among many blatant mistakes you made is also one about a difference between the peacetime and wartime conditions. Apparently, you don not realize there is a difference between the two at all. Those two birds, mentioned in this thread, were detected as soon as Norway. Perhaps even before, and they were escorted by NATO fighters along Scandinavia. You do know tu-160s didn't carry any weapons, don't you? This should give you a pretty good image of how far they would get in case of war. Or you think the USN CBGs, the French Navy's CBG, the Canadian Navy, the UK Navy, the Scandinavian Navies and all their airborne ISRs would simply chill out while a strategic bomber fully armed flies westward to the US. And every SPY-1 ship covering the Atlantic approach routes would mysteriously shut their sensors down. Aha.
    The Blackjacks can try east, ofc. Directly over the Pacific is not an option. They would never pass Japan, not in their wildest dreams, not in a million years. Research on the US/Japan installations, X-band early warring and air wings if you don't know why. Needless to mention, the S. Korea based air wing will engage early on if required. Options remaining? They can flank Japan to the north and aim for Alaska. And of course, as it usually happens, the US DoD are a bunch of idiots who didn't see it coming that way (a hint: i'm being sarcastic). The defence on Alaska will force them to launch their missiles from afar and haul ass back home...or, what's left of their home. A magnificent feet of achievement, indeed. What happens with those just launched missiles?
    Vann7 wrote:Nuclear Missiles for example flying at Mach 5.0 that Russia have.. can cover a distance of 100km in 60seconds and 300km in 3minutes. Poor the americans radar operators who have to go the bathroom when such cruise missile attack is about to happen.

    The Kh-22M Burya which travels @4.6M @80000ft altitude. Its sole platform so far is the TU-22M. Even if carried by TU-160M, its range is up to 550km, and only when launched in a HA fashion. That's easily detectable and 550km away from the coast is also within the reach of the interceptors which puts bombers into jeopardy. The kh-55/555/101/102 are all subsonic and travel up to 3000km. Even if their range is greater it makes no difference. They would still need to go for a HA launch which makes the missiles detectable and cued for intercept when they close on the coast.
    Vann7 wrote:So good luck trying to detect a cruise missile if their trajectory use as cover a mountain. Another thing.. that makes challenging cruise missiles to intercept is the curvature of earth.. and you might know the earth is not flat. But there is a curvature that can only be detected over very long distance. And no radar can track missiles that hides behind a mountain of rock ,or hide behind the earth curvature.(in this case behind water). In the case of warship.. they cannot see a cruise missile flying low beyond 50km . The only way to extend that range is using AWACS .

    They would have to launch over the sea from afar. There's no mountains to speak of. Curvature of the earth? In order to achieve the missile's long range and avoid being intercepted themselves, the tu-160s would need to launch at HA. The curvature is irrelevant in that case.
    Vann7 wrote:So all that Russia needs for their bombers to become "stealth" and hide to US radars and penetrate deep inside US coast with nuclear weapons withing a hundred of km of distance is fly low over zones not well defended.

    Maybe, in the comic books. They cannot fly low right from the Engels. Just as those two that went to Venezuela, they are always detected early on and tracked most of their flight. In case of war, the solution for intercept would be ready depending on their approach path.
    I hope you realize how little these machines would accomplish in trying to destroy the US coasts. You reasoning is not only fundamentally flawed, but you have also stacked the odds heavily in Russia's favor which is unrealistic.
    For those small regional conflict against a low tech foe, there are other much more suitable platforms, as Mindstorm described. I'm not taking any sides here. Just pointing out the role you imagine the TU160s to operate is heavily influenced by the geopolitical developments. And those developments work against the aircraft's capability (integrated NATO/NORAD surveillance and early-warning sensors in Japan, Europe, Canada; NATO fighters deployed close to Russian border). It can fly to other continents, unarmed, in the peacetime and show Russia's flag. If that alone justifies its costs then great.

    @GarryB:
    Thank you for a serious and comprehensive reply. You made some strong points that i agree with. I apologize for not knowing the engine production had restarted and that RAM applique will be improved as well. There are few remarks on my part.
    GarryB wrote:The 6 that wont be upgraded by 2020 have already been upgraded.

    So actually, all 16 will be M-upgraded. I read about 10.
    GarryB wrote:The Kh-555 cruise missile is not that expensive... they are already made as Kh-55 cruise missiles anyway.

    If so then it's a good move. Anyway, that's what i'm arguing for: more focus on the conventional ability.
    GarryB wrote:I therefore think it is funny that spending even more money on these aircraft and adding a wide range of very expensive new air to ground ordinance to their pools of weapons makes them better in your eyes.

    On the contrary, nothing can make tu-160 look better in my eyes. It's an overkill for the realistic Russian defence needs and not very survivable in case of a major nuclear war anyway. Unless you think that no NATO radar, airborne ISR nor naval CBG will ever detected it on its approach to the US, during the wartime? One may as well argue it'll suddenly pop up from the ground over New York. But i guess it's good for those cocky speeches during the election time.
    GarryB wrote:Russia is not the US remember and has no world police role to play out when it suits.

    Exactly my point! So what do they need it for? To show the world they have something remaining of the super-power status? And all that in a situation where Russian military/R&D industry sector lags behind in much more basic needs.
    -they arm their fighters with SAHR missiles, for God's sake! And it's 2013. Even the 9B-1348E seeker (R-77 ARH) was developed in 1990s and lags behind the US/Israeli designs. Plus, it's doubtful how many ARH missiles Russia has at all or they are mostly for export.
    -they still haven't developed the FPA seeker for IR missiles.
    -a decade after the US, Russia yet hasn't put AESA in the air.
    -the Russian officials constantly complain about insufficient tanker fleet.
    -what about flying hours for the crews?
    -ineffective SEAD ability. It's not just about the platform. They lag behind the HARM-D, let alone the HARM-E. Or should we remind ourselves of how dismally the Russian SEAD performed in Georgia?
    -how many of their arsenal is comprised of the PGMs in comparison to dumb bombs and unguided rockets?

    And you wanna argue that nothing of these matter? But keeping the strategic bombers operation will somehow fix everything, no doubt. If you ask me, improving the SU-25 and TU-22 fleets is ten times more important for true Russian defence needs. And yes, i consider the TU-22 as a very important asset. And it employs one of the most potent anti-ship missiles ever. Thus, i will closely follow what improvements the M3M standard will bring.
    [quote="GarryB"]The most likely target for Russia at the moment will be Afghanistan in about 3 years time when the Taleban are trying to take over again.
    Yes, and what's the conclusion? The US flew their B2 all the way from the Whiteman AFB to A-stan to drop tonnes of JDAMs. Russia doesn't need an expensive strategic bomber to attack a low-threat target so close to home. They can easily launch SU-34/24 or TU-22 or Iskander from Tajekistan if needed.
    There are much more pressing needs in the Russian military (both Army and navy) and defence industry that could benefit from the funds used up by unneeded aircraft for which you won't have any appropriate mission until the end of decade and beyond. Nevertheless, that aircraft will drain your budget all the time.
    GarryB wrote:Who is Russia going to bomb that has anything like a modern IADS?
    And whom is Russia going to bomb that is so far so they need a strategic bomber's range? I understand that having such a prestigious aircraft makes one proud. But i'll be hardly convinced that spending money on it, under current conditions both in military and internationally, is prudent. There are many better ways, in terms of realistic needs, to improve military power. Worrying about a near-impossible nuclear war with the US, for which TU160 could be used, doesn't sound very rational to me.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:17 pm

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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:20 pm

    SOC wrote:
    Giulio wrote:Nicaragua?? I didn't know!!! Very interesting thing for me. So maybe that they flew from the Pacific Ocean to the Caribbean Sea, flying over the Nicaragua Airspace?
    No, they flew down the Atlantic to get to Venezuela, at one point coming close to Norway.  What this means is that they may fly back to Russia through the Pacific, or they could always cross back over to the Atlantic.
    I don't understood. They flew down the Atlantic or the Pacific? Because the statement said: "... flew over the Caribbean, the eastern Pacific and along the southwestern coast of the North American continent ...".

    The Tu-160 is for me one of the most beautiful aircrafts in the world (regardless its nature), but I don't know a lot about this bird and I read in the web conflicting reports. This Aircraft in the West is very little know.

    I apologize if these are things that you have already spoken.

    1) Why the Tu-160 don't have a mimetic camouflage, but it is all in white (anti-nuclear?) camouflage? Is this a difference in the nature of its mission with respect to the B-1b?
    2) The big main landing gear of the Tu-160, with six strengthened elements on three axes, is it obtained from the Tu-154, the Tu-22M, or is it original?
    3) If possible, why the presence of the two Tu-95MS??? Can't the Tu-160 fly in areas without navigation and communication aid???
    4) Is the Tu-160 only a property of the Air Force, or it is also in the Navy fleet, or of a coastal command?
    5) If possible, why the Russian air forces use (they appear to use) only the probe and drogue system for the aerial refueling?
    6) Can the Tu-160 work like a tanker in a "buddy-buddy" configuration, similar to the Mirage IV?
    7) Only the best pilots of the long range aviation on the Tu-160s? Is it true that if a pilot thinks that he's not suitable for the Tu-160, he can say it and he goes elsewhere?
    8)The innermost parts of the wing, which become vertical with the wing at maximum angle; they work like wing fences at high speeds?
    Many thanks for whatever answer.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  TR1 on Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:49 pm

    spotter wrote:
    Exactly my point! So what do they need it for? To show the world they have something remaining of the super-power status? And all that in a situation where Russian military/R&D industry sector lags behind in much more basic needs.
    -they arm their fighters with SAHR missiles, for God's sake! And it's 2013. Even the 9B-1348E seeker (R-77 ARH) was developed in 1990s and lags behind the US/Israeli designs. Plus, it's doubtful how many ARH missiles Russia has at all or they are mostly for export.
    -they still haven't developed the FPA seeker for IR missiles.
    -a decade after the US, Russia yet hasn't put AESA in the air.
    -the Russian officials constantly complain about insufficient tanker fleet.
    -what about flying hours for the crews?
    -ineffective SEAD ability. It's not just about the platform. They lag behind the HARM-D, let alone the HARM-E. Or should we remind ourselves of how dismally the Russian SEAD performed in Georgia?
    -how many of their arsenal is comprised of the PGMs in comparison to dumb bombs and unguided rockets?
    This is kinda baloney.

    1.) The RuAF JUST started recieving new fighters en-masse. The legacy birds could not use ARHs, so the point is moot. With new birds, there are new weapons.
    2.) How many AESAs are flying worldwide? Not many. Russia flew PESA far before the US did on fighters, and still has more of em. US flies mostly MECHANICAL arrays. Wheres the outrrage?
    3.) Russia doesn't need a huge tanker fleet, period. Not to mention the tanker fleet deficiency...is an argument for keeping the Tu-160.
    4.) The flying hours have been steadily increasing for the past several years, what is the issue?
    5.) Lol, Kh-31 lags? Faster, longer ranged, such lag. Remind me the last time another nation had such a hurried response needed like Russia did in Georgia? Had Russia months to prepare a massive offensive like the US, the results would have been better.
    6.) Once again, new planes, new weapons.

    At the end of the day, do you have a basis that the Tu-160 fleet is so expensive is massively infringes on other sectors of the defense budget? RuAF values the fleet greatly, good enough for me.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  SOC on Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:02 am

    Giulio wrote:
    SOC wrote:
    Giulio wrote:Nicaragua?? I didn't know!!! Very interesting thing for me. So maybe that they flew from the Pacific Ocean to the Caribbean Sea, flying over the Nicaragua Airspace?
    No, they flew down the Atlantic to get to Venezuela, at one point coming close to Norway.  What this means is that they may fly back to Russia through the Pacific, or they could always cross back over to the Atlantic.
    I don't understood. They flew down the Atlantic or the Pacific? Because the statement said: "... flew over the Caribbean, the eastern Pacific and along the southwestern coast of the North American continent ...".

    The Tu-160 is for me one of the most beautiful aircrafts in the world (regardless its nature), but I don't know a lot about this bird and I read in the web conflicting reports. This Aircraft in the West is very little know.

    I apologize if these are things that you have already spoken.

    1) Why the Tu-160 don't have a mimetic camouflage, but it is all in white (anti-nuclear?) camouflage? Is this a difference in the nature of its mission with respect to the B-1b?
    2) The big main landing gear of the Tu-160, with six strengthened elements on three axes, is it obtained from the Tu-154, the Tu-22M, or is it original?
    3) If possible, why the presence of the two Tu-95MS??? Can't the Tu-160 fly in areas without navigation and communication aid???
    4) Is the Tu-160 only a property of the Air Force, or it is also in the Navy fleet, or of a coastal command?
    5) If possible, why the Russian air forces use (they appear to use) only the probe and drogue system for the aerial refueling?
    6) Can the Tu-160 work like a tanker in a "buddy-buddy" configuration, similar to the Mirage IV?
    7) Only the best pilots of the long range aviation on the Tu-160s? Is it true that if a pilot thinks that he's not suitable for the Tu-160, he can say it and he goes elsewhere?
    8)The innermost parts of the wing, which become vertical with the wing at maximum angle; they work like wing fences at high speeds?
    Many thanks for whatever answer.
    1. It's got an anti-flash white coating for nuclear war. Since it was never intended to be a low-altitude penetrator, there's no real point in camouflage.
    2. Original I think.
    3. The BEAR-Hs are there for the same reason as the BLACKJACKs, exercising their long-range capability. BLACKJACK can fly around just fine by itself.
    4. RusAF only, specifically Long-Range Aviation.
    5. It's simpler and cheaper. Is it easier to use? Depends on who you ask. The drawback is that fuel transfer rates are slower; SAC came up with the flying boom concept to be able to refuel bombers faster.
    6. No.
    7. I assume they're high-hour pilots.
    8. That's exactly what they're there for, to act as fences and provide additional directional stability at high Mach.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:01 am

    Russia hasn't put an AESA in the air?

    What do you call the Zhuk AEs flown on MiG-35 prototypes & demonstrators for the last 5 years?

    The PAK-FA T-50s started getting fitted with AESA-N050-Radars as of the 3rd prototype or so too; which first flew over a year ago.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:00 am

    Now you are trying to superimpose the US conops onto the Russian one. In my opinion that's incorrect cause Russian budget and operational strategic needs are nowhere as near as that of the US.
    So Russia is not allowed to do things the way America does them in the near future?

    What you are basically saying is that because the US spends more money they can afford to use much more expensive platforms to do certain jobs rather more expensively...

    Precisely.
    Now you are guilty of what you accused Mindstorm of.... it is not cost effective for the US to use bombers flying from the US to bomb targets in Europe or Asia or the ME, but if Russia had to bomb targets in, say Croatia or indeed Libya it would have to fly from Russia as it would have no friendly basing or fly over rights to allow it to use the shorter range aircraft the US could have used if it wanted to.

    Dropping relatively small bombs with a B-2 over 12,000km ranges is expensive overkill... they could have used F-16s for that over 200km or less from nearby bases.

    For many long range potential uses the long range bomber with a 3K km or now 5K km range cruise missile might be their only airpower option apart from Su-34s with tankers that refuel them 5 or 6 times enroute to the target area. In such cases it makes rather more sense to use heavy bombers and cruise missiles than tactical aircraft AND tankers AND support aircraft AND tankers for those support aircraft etc etc.

    Needless to say carrying 8 cruise missiles to targets 3,000km away from your base either means 4 Su-34s with two tankers supporting them or one Tu-22M3M.

    And that would be my whole point. I don't know if you realize but what you just said is the strongest possible confirmation of my words. You played into my hands, a sort of. The only conflict that Russia may find itself in a foreseeable future, against a largely inferior opponent, is already well covered by the very capable machine as the su-34, su-25sm and su-24m. You mentioned su-22? I guess you mixed up something.
    Future planning is not about what will happen, but what is likely to happen.

    I suspect the Su-22M was supposed to be Su-24M with Gefest & T upgrades.

    Su-24M, Su-34, and Su-25SM would be very useful for supporting operations near Russia, but for longer range missions they would become a liability in terms of the extra support they would need.

    They need the Tu-160M, Tu-95MSM, Tu-22M3M anyway... they are an integral part of the nuclear triad (the latter with tactical nukes on theatre strikes against China and Europe), but their conventional weapon upgrade (they needed upgrades anyway) makes them more flexible and actually cheaper to operate and maintain, and also bring to the table some capabilities that other tactical aircraft cannot offer... a Tu-160M could fly supersonic all the way from Russia to launch distance from the UK in a matter of an hour or two with a payload of 3,000km range or 5,000km range cruise missiles or a range of other weapon types on board... which other aircraft in the Russian inventory could do that?

    From the airspace to the north of the UK at Blackjack could fire a conventionally armed stealthy Kh-101 cruise missiles at targets in a range of African nations... the point is that it could do it without tanker support except perhaps a quick top up just after take off... an Su-34 could carry a single Kh-101 perhaps and with tanker support might be able to launch from the same place, but not without planning to have the tanker already in position to refuel it on the way and certainly not at mach 2 all the way with a 2.2 ton cruise missile hanging from its belly.

    For some mysterious clandestine reasons, there's an impending nuclear holocaust. And the Russian MoD decides their RSMF and SSBNs are not enough so they scramble the Blackjacks.
    Here you blunder... the bomber force is not the last resort least effective... they are the one option Putin has to say he means business... he can have the Blackjacks armed and in the air flying to their setting off points flying orbits getting topped up by aerial tankers just waiting for that word to go... any enemy that ignores such a signal is going to die... because once the signal for them to go is issued at the same time the signal for ICBMs and SLBMs will be issued too. Limited nuclear strikes are a western fabrication.

    A magnificent feet of achievement, indeed. What happens with those just launched missiles?
    Do you think the air forces of Japan and the US will be intact when the Blackjack launches its missiles?

    Even at Mach 2 the SLBMs and ICBMs will start taking apart the Japanese and US air defence network at T plus 15 minutes and T plus 30 minutes respectively... do you really think that at T plus 6 hours there will be any fighters coming up to meet them?

    The Bombers for Russia are not and have never had a first strike role to try to take out US nuclear capability... for that you need stealth bombers... getting it yet?

    The Kh-22M Burya which travels @4.6M @80000ft altitude.
    Heard of Kh-32? Based on Burya, but rather faster and with double the range of the earlier missile... Burya actually travels at something like mach 3.2... it is Kh-32 that travels at mach 4.5.

    The M in Tu-160M, Tu-95MSM, Tu-22M3M was a unified upgrade of radars, electronic systems, and weapons...

    So actually, all 16 will be M-upgraded. I read about 10.
    You have read about 10 to be upgraded.

    If so then it's a good move. Anyway, that's what i'm arguing for: more focus on the conventional ability.
    The new 5,000km range Kh-101 and Kh-102 are finally accurate enough to have terminal guidance and in the Kh-101s case a conventional warhead.

    The Kh-555 is merely a Kh-55SM with the conventional warhead and terminal guidance of the Kh-101/102.

    Because of its light weight the range of the missile has gone from 3,000km of the Kh-55SM to 3,500km in the Kh-555 version.

    On the contrary, nothing can make tu-160 look better in my eyes. It's an overkill for the realistic Russian defence needs and not very survivable in case of a major nuclear war anyway.
    The Tu-160 is a necessary tool in the strategic nuclear role. In the conventional role it might never be used or might be tasked with destroying a deeply buried Afghan base using a FOAB or two... the point is that it needs to be in service till the PAK DA is ready anyway so a decent upgrade will make it cheaper to operate and offer capabilities other Russian military aircraft can't match.

    The whole point of MAD is that nothing survives... that is the point.

    Unless you think that no NATO radar, airborne ISR nor naval CBG will ever detected it on its approach to the US, during the wartime? One may as well argue it'll suddenly pop up from the ground over New York. But i guess it's good for those cocky speeches during the election time.
    All the major US airfields and radar stations are known and largely fixed... as I said above at T plus 5-15 minutes when the SLBMs are flattening things the Blackjacks will likely still be topping up extra fuel just after takeoff and be flying in the direction of their launch positions... at T plus 30 anything that could be called a long range radar in North America will be glowing when the ICBMs start ripping them a new one.

    Over Russia it will largely be the same except the B-2s are first strike aircraft and will face fully operational air defence networks... quite a different kettle of fish really... ironic the effective bombers will be flying with explosions happening all around them and are painted white, while the real white elephants are painted black...

    Exactly my point! So what do they need it for? To show the world they have something remaining of the super-power status?
    Should Russia stand by and let the US do what it wants, when it wants?

    What if the US decides to have a go at regime change in Cuba... flying a couple of Tu-160Ms overnight to land in Cuba would be a pretty clear signal to Washington don't you think? And no shot need be fired. Or it could be Venezuela, or Peru.

    The Russians need MAD and Tu-160s are part of MAD. If they are going to need to have them anyway, then making them multirole just makes sure they get better value for money.

    -they arm their fighters with SAHR missiles, for God's sake! And it's 2013. Even the 9B-1348E seeker (R-77 ARH) was developed in 1990s and lags behind the US/Israeli designs. Plus, it's doubtful how many ARH missiles Russia has at all or they are mostly for export.
    The new aircraft entering Russian AF service will be armed with RVV-SD.

    And lags behind?

    You are not one of those idiots that thinks the best technology always wins are you?

    Even the best ARH missile has less than a 50% PK rate against unaware enemies in aircraft with poor ESM equipment... in real combat between modern fighters the majority of kills will actually come from IR guided weapons.

    -they still haven't developed the FPA seeker for IR missiles.
    -a decade after the US, Russia yet hasn't put AESA in the air.
    That is OK because it was three decades from when the Russians have PESA in a fighter interceptor before the US got AESA... did the US suck for those 30 odd years?

    Russia would need to seriously rush a FPA seeker missile into service if their current missile was crap. It isn't.

    Even the F-22 doesn't have a helmet mounted sight to take advantage of high offboresight targeting... every Russian fighter... even the ones from the 1980s has those...

    -the Russian officials constantly complain about insufficient tanker fleet.
    The thing is that is not really relevant unless they start flying tactical aircraft on theatre or strategic missions like the US does in Kosovo/serbia/iraq or elsewhere.

    -what about flying hours for the crews?
    Actually very good for the last 5 years or so. Less real combat experience than NATO but that is hardly their fault.

    -ineffective SEAD ability. It's not just about the platform. They lag behind the HARM-D, let alone the HARM-E. Or should we remind ourselves of how dismally the Russian SEAD performed in Georgia?
    HARM is junk... they finally have given it some features the AS-11 has had for 30 years... let alone AS-12 and AS-17.

    The Georgian attack was a surprise... the US AF response to 11/9 was pretty ordinary too from memory.

    The introduction of a few Mi-9 and reportedly a single Su-34 the losses stopped and the SA-11 unit was captured... BTW when was the last time NATO went up against any double digit Russian SAMs?

    -how many of their arsenal is comprised of the PGMs in comparison to dumb bombs and unguided rockets?
    In 2008 there were very few PGMs... the only platform that would make sense to carry such weapons was the Su-24M.

    Things have changed however now that upgraded and new aircraft that can actually use PGMs are entering service.

    But keeping the strategic bombers operation will somehow fix everything, no doubt.
    What?

    You are the one claiming the Blackjack is an expensive white elephant that is no use. I am telling you it is a necessary leg of the nuclear triad, but can be made more useful and cheaper to operate with a major upgrade that will allow its use for strategic and theatre missions.

    Needless to say they have built a weapon called the father of all bombs that weighs in the region of 11-12 tons and has a TNT equivalent payload of about 44 tons of HE... do you think a Mig-35 will be carrying that?

    The US uses a bomb called a daisy cutter... specifically for clearing areas of jungle to use as helicopter Landing Zones... they use C-130 Hercules low speed transport aircraft to deliver them.

    Would you agree that over Afghanistan the Tu-160M would be less vulnerable than an An-12?

    If you ask me, improving the SU-25 and TU-22 fleets is ten times more important for true Russian defence needs. And yes, i consider the TU-22 as a very important asset. And it employs one of the most potent anti-ship missiles ever. Thus, i will closely follow what improvements the M3M standard will bring.
    So you object to strategic aircraft being upgraded but not other aircraft?

    What about when both are getting upgrades?

    Yes, and what's the conclusion? The US flew their B2 all the way from the Whiteman AFB to A-stan to drop tonnes of JDAMs. Russia doesn't need an expensive strategic bomber to attack a low-threat target so close to home. They can easily launch SU-34/24 or TU-22 or Iskander from Tajekistan if needed.
    Which of those aircraft is cleared to carry the FOAB?

    The Tu-22M3M could deliver a very powerful payload, I agree, but not anything from the Russian arsenal... and lets face facts the FOABs is a thermobaric weapon... it would be ideal for wiping out a whole mountains worth of poppy field in one hit and making sure anyone hiding in a cave nearby had their lungs hanging out their mouths too.

    There are much more pressing needs in the Russian military (both Army and navy) and defence industry that could benefit from the funds used up by unneeded aircraft for which you won't have any appropriate mission until the end of decade and beyond. Nevertheless, that aircraft will drain your budget all the time.
    The whole point of the reform of the Russian military is the realisation that precision conventional weapons are becoming strategic in nature.

    During WWII if you wanted to hit a single ball bearing factory you sent a thousand bombers and you pummelled the crap out of the entire area for 4 or 5 nights in a row and if you were lucky a few bombs would hit that factory and work would stop for a few hours. Then came nukes and you could miss by half a city but still take out that ball bearing factory.

    The difference is that today a single satellite guided bomb could take that factory out again or conventionally armed cruise missile.

    Until Russia has thousands of PGMs in service and all its aircraft are either upgraded to use them or new builds, until Russian pilots are trained to use them then she has to rely on tactical and strategic nuclear weapons systems to ensure her safety.

    The Blackjack is part of that security.

    They are spending money changing this, but until about 2020 or just after that there is no way they will stop spending on their strategic nuclear capacity... spending a little extra to get a few extra features is just common sense.

    And whom is Russia going to bomb that is so far so they need a strategic bomber's range? I understand that having such a prestigious aircraft makes one proud. But i'll be hardly convinced that spending money on it, under current conditions both in military and internationally, is prudent. There are many better ways, in terms of realistic needs, to improve military power. Worrying about a near-impossible nuclear war with the US, for which TU160 could be used, doesn't sound very rational to me.
    Assuming the only country Russia will ever come into conflict with as being the US is fairly irrational to me too.

    We have seen flights by Tu-160s to Venezuela... the last flight they landed and pictures were revealed as the first clue to the visit.

    A US threat to Venezuela regarding a new bout of regime change... what better response than to fly a couple of Tu-160Ms there overnight to show Russian support for the government there.

    Imagine if Tu-160s landed in Libya before the west started bombing from their no fly zone? Would France have happily sent in bombers to attack Libyan targets knowing there was a Russian presence there like that?

    At the end of the day, do you have a basis that the Tu-160 fleet is so expensive is massively infringes on other sectors of the defense budget? RuAF values the fleet greatly, good enough for me.
    The fact that they kept them operational during the 90s when there was no money suggests they are not that expensive to operate.

    Sure they didn't fly much, but that was because of a lack of funds for fuel... now they clearly have money for both.


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:47 pm

    USA is building a new anti-balistic radar defence in Romania, so this was the Russian answer, that and pulling out joint talks about european bmd.
    On the Tu-160 is has capabilities unlike any other bomber but not that much and at a tremendeous cost ,so there are too few i can belive they can all be taken out in a insider spec-ops operation if there was a nuclear conflict imminent. There is less tu-160 then B-2 !!
    And the design with swing wing is backward , even sukhoi T-4 would have been earlier (when it was trully needed), better and in greater numbers built.
    Lets say if there wasnt for Tu160 Ussr would have had a 5th generation fighter , and its military usefullness in todays conflicts as a bomber has been 0 ~! Tu-95 has been a much much more usefull machine.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:54 pm

    GARRY B wrote:
    Over Russia it will largely be the same except the B-2s are first strike aircraft and will face fully operational air defence networks... quite a different kettle of fish really... ironic the effective bombers will be flying with explosions happening all around them and are painted white, while the real white elephants are painted black...
    Very interesting. So, if I had correctly understood, the explosions happening all around the Tu-160s wouldn't be caused by its weapons, but would be Russian ICBM explosions? If yes, perhaps better a transfer in the Navy!

    Again, I don't correctly understood:
    1) Is the Tu-160M already in operative service?
    2) Is it with RAM components?

    3) Is the Tu-160 suitable for anti-ship missions against enemy carriers like the Tu-22M? Thanks.

    @SOC: thanks.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  TR1 on Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:28 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:USA is building a new anti-balistic radar defence in Romania, so this was the Russian answer, that and pulling out joint talks about european bmd.
    On the Tu-160 is has capabilities unlike any other bomber but not that much and at a tremendeous cost ,so there are too few i can belive they can all be taken out in a insider spec-ops operation if there was a nuclear conflict imminent. There is less tu-160 then B-2 !!
    And the design with swing wing is backward , even sukhoi T-4 would have been earlier (when it was trully needed), better and in greater numbers built.
    Lets say if there wasnt for Tu160 Ussr would have had a 5th generation fighter , and its military usefullness in todays conflicts as a bomber has been 0 ~! Tu-95 has been a much much more usefull machine.
    So much fail.

    Spec ops? 5th gen instead of Tu-160?

    So much armchair generalship in this thread, good grief.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:50 pm

    ,so there are too few i can belive they can all be taken out in a insider spec-ops operation if there was a nuclear conflict imminent.
    Hahaha... that is funny... I would be very impressed if US special forces could effectively operate deep inside Russian territory like that... they failed in Somalia when the locals saw them coming... I would expect Russian strategic bombers to be rather better protected...

    Perhaps Tom Clancy might write it that way...

    And the design with swing wing is backward , even sukhoi T-4 would have been earlier (when it was trully needed), better and in greater numbers built.
    The Sukhoi T-4 was a stupid waste of money that would have been 10 times more expensive than the Blackjack and only slightly faster... perhaps you are confusing the T-4 with the T-4MS? And even it has swing wings.

    Very interesting. So, if I had correctly understood, the explosions happening all around the Tu-160s wouldn't be caused by its weapons, but would be Russian ICBM explosions? If yes, perhaps better a transfer in the Navy!
    The only nuclear explosions near the Tu-160 (and when I say near, I mean a couple of hundred kms away) would be Kh-15 missiles destroying any nearby airbase or radar station again a few hours after the SLBMs and ICBMs destroyed them.

    Lets say if there wasnt for Tu160 Ussr would have had a 5th generation fighter , and its military usefullness in todays conflicts as a bomber has been 0 ~! Tu-95 has been a much much more usefull machine.
    All backwards as usual... the Tu-160 is infinitely more valuable to Russia than a 5th gen fighter ever could be.

    Even if Russia had no fighters at all the west would not even consider using force because of their nuclear deterrent... that is what keeps them safe and prevents "regime change" via Washington... you know... 21st C democracy in action.

    Again, I don't correctly understood:
    1) Is the Tu-160M already in operative service?
    2) Is it with RAM components?

    3) Is the Tu-160 suitable for anti-ship missions against enemy carriers like the Tu-22M? Thanks.
    1)AFAIK several Tu-160s have been upgraded already... they were talking about starting upgrades in 2006, and it was in 2012 they said 10 more would be upgraded by 2020.

    2)The first build Tu-160 had RAM coatings and RCS reduction measures.

    3)The only reason why it couldn't is lack of numbers.

    The early plan was to make more aircraft to build numbers up to about 30, Which would have created a much more viable force, but the cost of building a factory that could handle such large aluminium forgings meant it would be cheaper to just upgrade all the heavy Tupolevs and to work on a unified replacement aircraft (PAK DA)... which is what they are doing.


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:17 pm

    Ok, if possible what's your thinking about antimissile shield in Europe, in bases like Deveselu in Romania? Officially anti Iran missile?
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:10 am

    The fact that they wont sign a piece of paper to say it wont be used against Russia makes it pretty clear that it will be used against Russia.

    The threat of Iranian missiles is imaginary. They don't have nuclear weapons and they don't have ICBMs.

    The threat of Russian nuclear weapons is real... they have ICBMs and SLBMs and they also have mature nuclear weapons technology.

    Both the old Bush system and the Obama systems start out talking about hitting the odd Iranian missile but in both cases the final stages talks about shooting down any and all ICBM payloads... WTF are the Russians supposed to think about that?

    MAD is all we have... because NATO and the US have a hard track record of lying. NATO wont expand, NATO wont expand into former Soviet republics, the CFE agreement is all about balance between Russia and the west, NATO will expand eastwards but there wont be US forces based anywhere in former eastern europe or former Soviet republics...

    What happens in 2025 when Chelsea Clinton is elected into office in the US and her military experts tell her not to worry because Vladimir Putins nuclear weapons are all now Impotent because of the improved and upgraded ABM systems... one in Europe, one in Japan, and one in the US and that she can get away with anything because there is nothing the Russians can do about it.

    Will it feel better in the nuclear winter of 2026 knowing that Chelseas advisors were wrong and that Vladimir had a few tricks up his sleeve that rendered all three ABM systems useless despite costing over 20 trillion for each?


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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:20 am

    Thanks. But what a beautiful picture ...... Russia is Europe, also physically. I hope that this thing will become more than a simple word ...

    If possible may I ask you about this  relationship between the Tu-160s and the stealth?

    From that I understood:

    1) Stealth on some Tu-160 components (like fans) was already present from the first built Tu-160?

    2) The stealth on a Russian strategic bomber is considered important, but not essential. Correct?

    3) When on display at the air shows, the ground crews put on the covers on the engine intakes on the Tu-160s also because of the stealth measures in the turbofans?

    4) Some Tu-160s (10, maybe more) were sent to an upgrade program that also includes stealth.

    Correct?

    Again, is the Tu-95MS a Tu-142?

    Could the Bear-H receive RAM materials?

    Could the Tu-22M receive RAM?

    Thanks.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  SOC on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:22 pm

    Giulio wrote:Thanks. But what a beautiful picture ...... Russia is Europe, also physically. I hope that this thing will become more than a simple word ...

    If possible may I ask you about this  relationship between the Tu-160s and the stealth?

    From that I understood:

    1) Stealth on some Tu-160 components (like fans) was already present from the first built Tu-160?

    2) The stealth on a Russian strategic bomber is considered important, but not essential. Correct?

    3) When on display at the air shows, the ground crews put on the covers on the engine intakes on the Tu-160s also because of the stealth measures in the turbofans?

    4) Some Tu-160s (10, maybe more) were sent to an upgrade program that also includes stealth.

    Correct?

    Again, is the Tu-95MS a Tu-142?

    Could the Bear-H receive RAM materials?

    Could the Tu-22M receive RAM?

    Thanks.
    1. Yes.
    2. I think the PAK-DA is supposed to be at least partly LO.
    3. Yes, if it was an operational aircraft on display.
    4. Yes, 10 airframes are getting the Tu-160 upgrade.
    5. Yes, BEAR-H is basically a newer Tu-142 airframe.
    6. Pointless due to the massive signature from the props.
    7. Pointless due to the large number of corner reflectors, slab sides, etc.
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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Giulio on Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:02 pm

    Many thanks, but sorry if I insist, it isn't that I don't believe you, but if possible do you have some source to show me about the Tu-160 stealthy? (Also in Russian language).
    (Where I am, there is a lot [but a lot ...] of ignorance and misinformation about Russian aircrafts, above all about the Tu-160. From the beginning I imagined that the Tu-160 had some stealth features, above all by its extra streamlined shape, clearly due not only to the its high supersonic speed. So, now, if here I go to tell someone that, from the first build Tu-160 (that is from the 80s ...), there were on board some stealth features, they say that I'm drunk).

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    Re: Venezuela-Russia military cooperation:

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:33 pm

    my point was if you need a cruise missile carrier then tu-95 is good enough ,no point in wasting billions on white elephant like tu-160 which only advantage is -its faster. its in such a low numbers that using its airframes for conventional operations could endanger the nuclear capability. and so far it hasnt been used at all. the tu-95 remains the backbone ,with many versions for maritime and other purposes -unlike tu-160 !
    t-4 would have replaced tu-22 in every single one, and tu-160 in many roles.what a shame.

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