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    What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

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    Stealthflanker
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    What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:35 pm

    As the title said.

    Well i brought rulers.. piece of paper, pen and camera.. and start doing my job.

    This is the Leopard in question.


    What i did ?


    What's being measured ?
    Loader's sight turret armor


    Commander and gunner part :


    Oh and i'm also measure thickness of the gunsight/commander's sight cover


    Turret side part :


    Lower hull part :
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/q84/s720x720/1551515_10201129605146566_1307777015_n.jpg


    And some other parts like side skirts, gun mantlet and rear of the turrets. The results was well... might be doubtful considering i measure using my old piece of ruler and take no account of angles (Which however can be easily found using 1/cos@*Physical thickness while @ is the angle in radians) But it give me at least some idea that "it's not as thick as what some internet guys claimed"

    Another thing is that i measured parts that i could measure... can't do a thing for others like say.. roof and all of my figures are for physical thickness... can't say a thing about the cobham filler inside.. So my figures might be worthless.

    Hmm result of my measurements as follows :

    Turret front part (loader side) : 617 mm
    Turret (Commander & Gunner side) Behind the sight :535 mm
    Thickness of the sight's cover : 12 mm
    Side of the Turret : 285 mm
    Rear of the Turret : 25 mm
    Gun Mantlet : 500 mm
    Roof of the gun mantlet : 70 mm
    Side skirt add on armor : 110mm
    Lower frontal hull :40 mm


    Hmm that's all.. What's left now is to repeat the measurement..which quite long from now since cavalry batalyon near my city has not received any leopard yet (That one i measured was the 1st batch.. 2 arrived.. 1 however is rumoured to be returned to Germany for some unknown reason)

    TR1
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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:07 pm

    Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Werewolf
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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:31 pm

    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Stealthflanker
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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:42 am

    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Thanks.  respekt 

    Yes.. I read such claims including this image Damian & His friend's claim , in one of Tank thread debate here (where Mindstorm "having fun" with both of them)Mp.net and tank.net.


    I was lucky that Indonesian Leopard 2 was showcased during the event.. So i took my ruler and rollin. I measured the armor weld to weld too but none yield figures close to 800 mm or 890mm... But rather some 617mm and 535mm. So Lord Harkonnen and one Tank.net guy's figure was closer to reality  yes sir 

    Too bad all i have to take photos was quite lousy cellphone camera.


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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:25 pm

    You might wanna post your findings on Tank.net, see what our Polish friends have to say Very Happy !

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  bantugbro on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:50 pm

    Interesting findings...thanks respekt 

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:43 pm

    nice work...
    Though im a bit surprised they just let you measure it, isnt it kind of OPSEC given its your country's best tank?

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:48 am

    Though im a bit surprised they just let you measure it, isnt it kind of OPSEC given its your country's best tank?

    There is software that can calculate dimensions in a photo.

    I am sure they would have stopped him when he got out his core sampler kit though ... Smile


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    Stealthflanker
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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:31 pm

    TR1 wrote:You might wanna post your findings on Tank.net, see what our Polish friends have to say Very Happy!

    Done.. now let the mess begin.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:19 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You might wanna post your findings on Tank.net, see what our Polish friends have to say Very Happy!

    Done.. now let the mess begin.

    You da man.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:08 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Yep Damien is a major bullshiter and Leopard 2 fanboy. Typical Polish complex - now that they got some Western toys (doesn't matter that they are a 'junior member' and aren't trusted with the very latest ones); they seek to play down and sling mud at all the Soviet gear they had before (no offense As-Saiqa)

    I mean I respect that his knowledge is clearly far superior to my own; but there are just some advantages of Russian armour that are impossible to argue with either way; such as the lower profile - yet Damien as a way to avoid admission of such things tries to play them down through the myth of the all-powerful, perfect modern FCS and so on; or harp on about what tank Polish servicemen 'prefer' (as if it's any sort of decisive factor). Might have been someone else actually who was talking about that one.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:35 am

    Yeah, he is a double standard hypocrite despite some knowledge of military matters.

    Especially when it comes to figures of RHA he always calls the ridiculous figures of simulations for military from this one ridiculous site like on Wikishmedia article about Leo2a6 with the ridiculouse figure of 1960mm RHA for the turret.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:46 pm

    Well unsurprisingly.. the 840mm fan labeled my findings as incorrect.

    I may missed something but 20 cm of discrepancies is well may not be the case.

    All needs to be done now is of course repetition.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:27 pm

    They claim you measured the wrong angle, not the same orientation as the Poles did.....but I am going to take a wild guess and say you are competent enough to compare the same measurement angles, and still got a far lower value?

    Keep fighting the good fight (truth).

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:30 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Well unsurprisingly.. the 840mm fan labeled my findings as incorrect.

    I may missed something but 20 cm of discrepancies is well may not be the case.

    All needs to be done now is of course repetition.

    Can we have the link to where they claim you are incorrect and don't know how to measure?

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:48 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:Well unsurprisingly.. the 840mm fan labeled my findings as incorrect.

    I may missed something but 20 cm of discrepancies is well may not be the case.

    All needs to be done now is of course repetition.

    Can we have the link to where they claim you are incorrect and don't know how to measure?

    inbound.

    http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?s=08f5a61bf90003b52596f3f2a9fba6c3&showtopic=36233&page=4

    Fighting for truth and curiousity is yes i'm willing to do.. but obviously i'll have to strengthen myself first.


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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Regular on Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:25 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Yep Damien is a major bullshiter and Leopard 2 fanboy. Typical Polish complex - now that they got some Western toys (doesn't matter that they are a 'junior member' and aren't trusted with the very latest ones); they seek to play down and sling mud at all the Soviet gear they had before (no offense As-Saiqa)

    I mean I respect that his knowledge is clearly far superior to my own; but there are just some advantages of Russian armour that are impossible to argue with either way; such as the lower profile - yet Damien as a way to avoid admission of such things tries to play them down through the myth of the all-powerful, perfect modern FCS and so on; or harp on about what tank Polish servicemen 'prefer' (as if it's any sort of decisive factor). Might have been someone else actually who was talking about that one.
    Well Damian have defended Russian hardware as well, especially when some Pakistanis started calling Indian T-90 inferior to Al Khalid. He is biased but not like one famous Ukrainian fella:)

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Yep Damien is a major bullshiter and Leopard 2 fanboy. Typical Polish complex - now that they got some Western toys (doesn't matter that they are a 'junior member' and aren't trusted with the very latest ones); they seek to play down and sling mud at all the Soviet gear they had before (no offense As-Saiqa)

    I mean I respect that his knowledge is clearly far superior to my own; but there are just some advantages of Russian armour that are impossible to argue with either way; such as the lower profile - yet Damien as a way to avoid admission of such things tries to play them down through the myth of the all-powerful, perfect modern FCS and so on; or harp on about what tank Polish servicemen 'prefer' (as if it's any sort of decisive factor). Might have been someone else actually who was talking about that one.
    This... I find it fckin annyoingly how having very marginally better stuff like ammo, gun, armor, FCS etc. now suddenly outweighs the benefits of being able to afford 3 tanks vs two, having a significantly lighter vehicle, and only 3 crew etc. etc.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:04 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Yep Damien is a major bullshiter and Leopard 2 fanboy. Typical Polish complex - now that they got some Western toys (doesn't matter that they are a 'junior member' and aren't trusted with the very latest ones); they seek to play down and sling mud at all the Soviet gear they had before (no offense As-Saiqa)

    I mean I respect that his knowledge is clearly far superior to my own; but there are just some advantages of Russian armour that are impossible to argue with either way; such as the lower profile - yet Damien as a way to avoid admission of such things tries to play them down through the myth of the all-powerful, perfect modern FCS and so on; or harp on about what tank Polish servicemen 'prefer' (as if it's any sort of decisive factor). Might have been someone else actually who was talking about that one.
    This... I find it fckin annyoingly how having very marginally better stuff like ammo, gun, armor, FCS etc. now suddenly outweighs the benefits of being able to afford 3 tanks vs two, having a significantly lighter vehicle, and only 3 crew etc. etc.

    I wouldn't even give them those either, better guns and ammo? How can they be better if NATO rifles such as the AR-15 family of rifles (M-16, M-4A1, etc.) or the L85/SA80 family of rifles, are exponentially less reliable/durable than Russian analogues. The one thing they got going for them is better ergonomics, which is a simple problem to fix, and with the AK-12 family of rifles, NATO essentially lost it's ergonomic advantage. Better armor? Both NATO and Russian armors have the same levels of ballistic resistance, but in the case of bullet-proof helmets Russian helmets are at least 1 kilogram lighter. Better Future Combat Systems? How can they be better if they've been compromised by Chinese hackers:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/a-list-of-the-us-weapons-designs-and-technologies-compromised-by-hackers/2013/05/27/a95b2b12-c483-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Regular on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:54 pm

    Well he was probably referring to tank ammunition and tank guns, not puny rifles. Rifle wise NATO has decent ammo, no matter how much they complain about lack of killing power of 5.56 in the sand box environments, but it should be decent against bullet proof vest wearing opponents. And there are more rifles than AR-15 (Reliability of them depends on the maker as well, American soldiers still carry rifles made on the lowest bidder) and L86. Both of them were upgraded by Heckler Koch just to squeeze some life out of them. FN Scar, HK-416 family, G-36 family, CZ-805, MSBS Radon family, Bushmaster ACR and especially ARX-160 are more interesting and I would assume them superior than those two You've mentioned. 

    L55 is probably best gun in the West, but not all NATO tanks have them. And edge in ammo is only because some NATO tanks could use longer penetrators, apart from that Russia and NATO are on par.
    But Russia is just one country and NATO has many of them.
    Europeans are good at weapons as well, some countries like non NATO member Finland specialize at IFV/APC and they are really good at it. You can't be best at everything, it's only important to have competent systems and be self sufficient. It's not a game where unit with highest ATTACK and HP wins the war Smile


    bullet-proof helmets Russian helmets are at least 1 kilogram lighter.

    Don't forget that Russia has loads of crappy helmets as well. Not all NATO armies have same helmets nor Russia has 1 standard one. Even today You can see some Russian soldiers wearing metal SSh68. And some NATO militaries wear old PASGT till there are no supports left Very Happy As much I like Russian equipment, but American companies are well known to have leading edge on personal equipment when the rest of the world just follows them. But it doesn't mean that all NATO soldiers get them too. It usually ends up in civilian market Very Happy

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:03 pm

    Guys, the whole M4 is super unreliable schtick is getting old. It is no better than the reverse Russophobic crap spewed by the other side.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Regular on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:30 pm

    Yeah, just like people who think all AK's are inaccurate terrorist weapons.
    Some people need to be more open minded.
    There are Russian made AR-15 as well. 
    Here are some of ARkas Smile


    Molot AR-15 rifles



    Orsis AR-15




    I especially love Orsis AR-15 that shoots 7.62x51. Orsis barrels are top of the game too. You can expect jewelry finish so I bet reliability is not an issue.


    PS. HAPPY OLD NEW YEAR TO ALL ORTHODOX


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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:54 pm

    But Russia is just one country and NATO has many of them.
    Europeans are good at weapons as well, some countries like non NATO member Finland specialize at IFV/APC and they are really good at it. You can't be best at everything, it's only important to have competent systems and be self sufficient. It's not a game where unit with highest ATTACK and HP wins the war

    I agree mostly with what you are saying but the critical thing is that while not master in everything the Russians have something only the Americans have... a full set of chess pieces.

    Finland might have a good APC or IFV, or Sweden might have a good mortar or anti tank missile, but if you look a NATO or just US led lynch mob interventions it is the force multipliers that make the difference and the production capacity and stores and reserves that mean they can keep sending material into an area long after a smaller country would have to give up.

    NATO countries tend to be pretty well equipped and well trained but how many can afford the full toy set?

    AWACS, Jammers, recon, etc etc... all expensive vulnerable items that no small country can afford to pay for themselves to have available for any conflict.

    The advantage of being a large group means when NATO goes to war they will take everything they need to fight that war as efficiently and unfairly as they can (anyone who wants to fight fair is an idiot... this is war... not a game).

    The problem for NATO is that the US has most of the big pieces so really only France and the UK can fight around the world on their own. This is largely because of their colonial past, so French problems and UK problems remain French and UK problems respectively, while problems for the US become NATO problems if they can drag a majority into the fight.

    If the US is not interested then it wont be a NATO thing.

    Guys, the whole M4 is super unreliable schtick is getting old.

    I don't know... if I was going in to combat and had to rely on the rifle I was carrying I would think it is fairly important.

    The design is fundamentally flawed in terms of its gas system design lacking a piston rod.

    Considering the topic is about the overestimated dimensions of a western tank I would think other cases of western kit being overestimated in terms of effectiveness and performance is relevant if over done.

    You can expect jewelry finish so I bet reliability is not an issue.

    Unless they put a piston in it or don't ever fire it I wouldn't hold my breath.


    Last edited by GarryB on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:56 pm

    Well, contemporary models of the M4 have been used by huge numbers of troops on deployments in climatically bad conditions over the past years...and their response has been overwhelmingly positive.

    These are not the same early model M-16s from Vietnam that everyone seems to remember.

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    Re: What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:58 am

    the main problem with the Vietnam era M16 was a change in powder that didn't burn cleanly and burned faster than the powder the rifle was designed with.

    The result was higher rate of fire which caused bits to break faster, and a sticky residue that hardened and jammed the weapon.

    Of course if the design had been more robust like the AK design then a change in powder would not have been a problem.

    Also the soldiers in Vietnam were told their new wonder rifle didn't need cleaning and they weren't issued cleaning kits which obviously didn't help.

    An AK might not need cleaning to work but only a fool does not clean it.


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