Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Share
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1650
    Points : 1675
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  eehnie on Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:20 am

    GarryB, where are my comments about future unmanned VTOL shipborne maritime patrol aircrafts related to this comment in this topic?

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2897p175-russian-naval-aviation-news#163432
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16872
    Points : 17480
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:40 am

    I don't know what you are talking about.

    I haven't moved any posts for quite a while now.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1650
    Points : 1675
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  eehnie on Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:17 am

    It were a decent number of comments about how can be a long range modern maritime patrol aircraft with the introduction of unmanned technologies. It was just a discussion with you.

    It should be since the page 8 of this topic, and it was in more than one page. Comments of the first half of 2016. It remains nothing of that, only some late reference, is it in other topic?

    It was a talking about future potential unmanned aircrafts, explained why, long range, explained how, shipborne, explained why, explained how it affects to the range of the maritime patrol UAVs and even with a list of around 30 Russian warships that would be able to carry them, of 5 to 7 tons approximately, explained why, VTOL, explained why, with low charge of weapons, explained why. It was a light cost analisys related to it. It was a talking about how would be the work with them from ships, instead of land bases, about how a ship would be able to answer with different types of weapons to the threats discovered by them (own surface-surface missiles,...) and about how the bombing role of the current maritime patrol can be assumed by fast strategic bombers that move only to the target, when a target is discovered, making the costs lower. It was a discussion about sensors, its size... It was even some comment with videos with examples of current UAVS of the size proposed and current UAVs working the most interesting ways for the purpose, with some case of engines rotating after to take off, and other things.

    Also it was a talking about how it was to late to go to a new big size manned aircraft of the old mold, and about how it was a risk of getting fairly obsolete in a few years, maybe 10-15, far before the end of the life of potential new aircrafts build now or in the following years.

    Where is all that?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16872
    Points : 17480
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:09 am

    I don't know.

    All I can say is that I did not move them.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1650
    Points : 1675
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  eehnie on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:48 am

    There is an important number of posts disappeared, not only mines, also yours.
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3261
    Points : 3367
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:22 pm

    eehnie wrote:There is an important number of posts disappeared, not only mines, also yours.

    The pro-Israeli propagandists must have hacked the site Mad
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1650
    Points : 1675
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  eehnie on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:08 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    eehnie wrote:There is an important number of posts disappeared, not only mines, also yours.

    The pro-Israeli propagandists must have hacked the site Mad

    Maybe in the interest of GarryB to find his own posts.
    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 442
    Points : 511
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  jhelb on Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:I don't know what you are talking about.

    I haven't moved any posts for quite a while now.


    GarryB, I've noticed that several of the posts that I made as well as posts made by other forum members have simply disappeared.

    There must be some technical issue with this forum. If you recall a few years ago some members were complaining exactly about this issue . Posts are disappearing.
    avatar
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 1056
    Points : 1222
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:01 pm

    Sorry if it's been mentioned before.

    Ekranoplans: Soviet secret weapons get a new lease of life

    https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/326266-ekranoplans-soviet-secret-weapons

    Also are they really capable of flying in category 5 storms? I find that quite hard to believe and the fact being so close to the surface that big waves would simply wash it away the article even states a disadvantage is that it can fly on uneven surface surely a category 5 storm would create a massively uneven surface on the water obviously the sea will always be choppy and a bit wild which I am sure they can operate fine in but category 5 storms I ain't sure. Maybe someone can shed some light on the matter. But good news if they come back.

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16872
    Points : 17480
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:50 am

    Regarding disappearing posts I will have a word to Vlad about it.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3261
    Points : 3367
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:58 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Sorry if it's been mentioned before.

    Ekranoplans: Soviet secret weapons get a new lease of life

    https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/326266-ekranoplans-soviet-secret-weapons

    Also are they really capable of flying in category 5 storms? I find that quite hard to believe and the fact being so close to the surface that big waves would simply wash it away the article even states a disadvantage is that it can fly on uneven surface surely a category 5 storm would create a massively uneven surface on the water obviously the sea will always be choppy and a bit wild which I am sure they can operate fine in but category 5 storms I ain't sure. Maybe someone can shed some light on the matter. But good news if they come back.


    I don't know about the Orlyonok, but it might be possible now.

    One of the big factors against wholesale Ekranoplan adoption back in the heyday of the Soviet program for them - was exactly their vulnerablity to storms and rough sea conditions. In effect this pretty much restricted them to the Caspian and the Azov seas. Even the Black Sea was a little too turbulent for them to be employed reliably there.

    However that generation of ekranoplans was a lot larger than the models currently being tested. I'm not sure if it's a factor; larger ships are afterall less affected by storms than smaller ones. But it could make sense that a smaller ekranoplane can 'ride' the waves so to speak while a larger one would be subject to turbulance and instability into multiple directions at once.

    Also, new alloys and materials have been developed since then, fly by wire systems with computer-calculated corrections even for unstable aerodynamic configurations, more powerful engines in smaller dimensions, and so on.
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1732
    Points : 1889
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:46 pm

    Another factor against Ekranoplans are seabirds (gulls, terns etc.) and waterfowl (ducks, geese, etc.) that tend to be more common at those sea skimming altitudes.
    avatar
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 543
    Points : 539
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:40 pm

    The problems with the ekranoplans :
    Cost as much as a similar sized airplane
    has less capability than an airplane
    Restricted the weather condition when it can land/take off from water
    turning radius must be big( it can't lose altitude to turn)



    Practically the Ekranoplans is as expensive as an aircraft, but less capable.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16872
    Points : 17480
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:59 am

    No, the main problem with Ekranoplanes is that they fly at low altitude where jet engines are not that efficient and top speed is limited.

    Their straight stubby wings means they generally need rather large tail structures for stability.

    I have seen some West German designs that used delta wings and did not need the large tail structures for stability.

    An Ekranoplan can fly at any altitude it only gets it best efficiency at very low level so if there is turbulence or waves or a storm it can easily climb and fly over it like any other aircraft... unlike a ship it is also fast enough to be able to fly around most storms too.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 543
    Points : 539
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:41 am

    GarryB wrote:No, the main problem with Ekranoplanes is that they fly at low altitude where jet engines are not that efficient and top speed is limited.

    Their straight stubby wings means they generally need rather large tail structures for stability.

    I have seen some West German designs that used delta wings and did not need the large tail structures for stability.

    An Ekranoplan can fly at any altitude it only gets it best efficiency at very low level so if there is turbulence or waves or a storm it can easily climb and fly over it like any other aircraft... unlike a ship it is also fast enough to be able to fly around most storms too.

    A ship is very cheap compared to an aircraft.

    The Ekranoplane is superior compared to a ship, but inferior compared to a true aircraft.


    It can carry anti ship missiles, but can't carry helicopters or other long range sensor platform, and it can't climb high enough to "see" ships.

    wilhelm

    Posts : 231
    Points : 235
    Join date : 2014-12-09

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  wilhelm on Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:58 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:


    It can carry anti ship missiles, but can't carry helicopters or other long range sensor platform, and it can't climb high enough to "see" ships.
    The Soviet Union classified ekranoplans into 3 categories.
    Category A - Used almost always in ground effect, but with a limited pop up climb ability.
    Category B - could attain certain altitudes.
    Category C - only used ground effect for takeoff and landing phases.

    For example, the large 140 ton Category B Orlynok could reach 3000m.
    As far as I can recall, the massive 380t Lun was also able to acheive a considerable altitude, much higher than Orlynok if I recall correctly.
    So, their efficient regime was in ground effect, but nothing stops an ekranoplan of the correct design from climbing higher to have an electronic "look around".
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3258
    Points : 3381
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:29 pm

    There is way too much dissing of ekranoplans. All this yapping about engine efficiencies is so blinkered it is cringe worthy.
    Ekranoplans offer payload capacities no pure aircraft could hope to achieve and mobility no ship could ever hope to achieve.
    Ekranoplans open up a whole new category of transport system and are real innovation. If people care so much about
    engine efficiency then they should write an angry letter to the makers of these systems and tell them to use propeller engines
    instead. In case it is not clear: the fault is with the Brayton cycle jet engines and not with ekranoplans.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2205
    Points : 2221
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:52 pm

    kvs wrote:There is way too much dissing of ekranoplans.   All this yapping about engine efficiencies is so blinkered it is cringe worthy.
    Ekranoplans offer payload capacities no pure aircraft could hope to achieve and mobility no ship could ever hope to achieve.
    Ekranoplans open up a whole new category of transport system and are real innovation.    If people care so much about
    engine efficiency then they should write an angry letter to the makers of these systems and tell them to use propeller engines
    instead.   In case it is not clear:  the fault is with the Brayton cycle jet engines and not with ekranoplans.  

    Why not concentrate in getting one more frigate next year? I mean actually receiving a ship of > 3,000 tonnage.
    Cause I think all these side-show monkey projects are milking money away from the important stuff Rolling Eyes
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16872
    Points : 17480
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:33 am

    WTF difference would one Frigate make?

    WTF different would 100 Frigates make?

    Ekranoplans and Frigates are not related.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 867
    Points : 885
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:53 am

    KiloGolf wrote:Why not concentrate in getting one more frigate next year? I mean actually receiving a ship of > 3,000 tonnage.
    Cause I think all these side-show monkey projects are milking money away from the important stuff Rolling Eyes

    KG is STILL sooking about Frigate construction?... On a thread about Ekranoplans?.... Fuck mate, you got some problems.
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 264
    Points : 266
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:53 pm

    Ekranoplans are way better than amphibians when used for transport & SAR, & more reliable than V-22 type aircraft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_V-22_Osprey

    They could be used to supply ships & subs faster & over longer distances w/o refueling & icebreakers in the Arctic/Antarctic, & have export potential:
    The 54-ton A-050 aircraft is especially well suited for service with the Federal Border Service, Ministry of Emergency Situations, Federal Security Service and the Russian Navy to serve as patrol aircraft. The aircraft will be able to carry 9 tons of cargo or 100 passengers over distances of up to 5,000 km at a cruising speed of 350-450 km/h. http://www.deagel.com/Support-Aircraft/A-050_a003242001.aspx
    The ekranoplan is considered suitable for the PLA Navy to deploy to various regions like the disputed South China Sea to carry out anti-access and area denial tactics. China is also understood to be developing its own version of an ekranoplan. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-in-talks-to-buy-a-050-ekranoplan-from-russia.404058/
    In the US, the Boeing Pelican is still a paper plane! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Pelican

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16872
    Points : 17480
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:42 am

    I would like to see a combination hovercraft ekranoplan.... ie an Ekranoplan with a skirt undercarriage able to basically take off or land on any flat surface like water or snow or sand or mud for that matter...

    Being able to deliver payloads to places without prepared runways or even hard ground like an Island in the Pacific would be a useful thing and making it as fast as an aircraft would be an added bonus for emergencies.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3261
    Points : 3367
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:I would like to see a combination hovercraft ekranoplan.... ie an Ekranoplan with a skirt undercarriage able to basically take off or land on any flat surface like water or snow or sand or mud for that matter...

    Being able to deliver payloads to places without prepared runways or even hard ground like an Island in the Pacific would be a useful thing and making it as fast as an aircraft would be an added bonus for emergencies.

    Why not just use a hovercraft?
    Cheaper and less infrastructure needed.
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 264
    Points : 266
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 am

    If/when it's skirt is perforated/damaged, it's a sitting duck unable to move! All is needed are bullets, shells or shrapnel to disable it. Also their speed & range are less than Ekranoplan. The Russians & Chinese already have hovercraft but now work on & want Ekranoplans; it's clear they have the advantage over hovercraft. A hybrid of the 2 may not be possible w/o decreased performance.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 867
    Points : 885
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:47 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would like to see a combination hovercraft ekranoplan.... ie an Ekranoplan with a skirt undercarriage able to basically take off or land on any flat surface like water or snow or sand or mud for that matter...

    Being able to deliver payloads to places without prepared runways or even hard ground like an Island in the Pacific would be a useful thing and making it as fast as an aircraft would be an added bonus for emergencies.

    Why not just use a hovercraft?
    Cheaper and less infrastructure needed.

    Hovercraft are slow and don't have the option for full low altitude flight. They are still useful, but only for short range landing operations, like liberating the Baltic states and booting the Nazis into the sea.... Twisted Evil

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:31 pm