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    Russian Naval Aviation: News

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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:06 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia's next naval (ASW) helicopter options:

    1. Ka-52
    2. Ka-31
    3. Ka-60
    4. New design

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160514/1039618244/russian-navy-ka52-ka60.html

    To remember about the question.

    Minoga will eventually replace Ka-27 family in the "heavy" naval helicopter role. Ka-60 is an option for smaller displacement ships.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:40 am

    What i know for sure that Pacific installations are out of order since 1995-6. or so.

    So why would the Russian navy be operating mini subs around the aerials of a hydrophone array that had not been operational for the previous decade?

    On August 5, 2005 AS-28, under the command of Lieutenant Vyacheslav Milashevskiy, became entangled with the aerial of a hydrophone array off the coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, in Berezovaya Bay, 70 km southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy, Kamchatka Oblast.

    Just looking at the work the Army and Air Force has done I would suspect the Navy started by upgrading their C4IR capabilities...


    Well UK enjoys having ASW assets of other nearby countries "working for them". Russia does not.

    Hahahahaha... tell them that... I am sure that will make them feel much better.
    If that is the case why don't they save even more money and retire Trident Subs and Aircraft Carriers... the US has plenty of those... surely they would share in war time...


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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What i know for sure that Pacific installations are out of order since 1995-6. or so.

    So why would the Russian navy be operating mini subs around the aerials of a hydrophone array that had not been operational for the previous decade?

    On August 5, 2005 AS-28, under the command of Lieutenant Vyacheslav Milashevskiy, became entangled with the aerial of a hydrophone array off the coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula, in Berezovaya Bay, 70 km southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy, Kamchatka Oblast.

    Just looking at the work the Army and Air Force has done I would suspect the Navy started by upgrading their C4IR capabilities...


    Well UK enjoys having ASW assets of other nearby countries "working for them". Russia does not.

    Hahahahaha... tell them that... I am sure that will make them feel much better.
    If that is the case why don't they save even more money and retire Trident Subs and Aircraft Carriers... the US has plenty of those... surely they would share in war time...

    Removing parts of it? Repairing it? I would not know.

    There was report few years back (cca 2013), refering to underwater detection line somewhere in North Sea that still exists but there was no mention of any other similar facility being still active. Now, they might be reintroducing, repairing or even placing new ones, but as of this moment i dont think any is currently operational, except i suppose that one Northen fleet still has. I would assume Pacific-Baltic system of a sort would be their first priority rather than Northen.

    Well, see, UK is in such position that it has Spain, Portugal and France under-next to it and whole bunch of countries above it that operate own maritime patrol and ASW aircraft fleets, often even US Orions reside in the UK. Also they ordered P-8s to refresh their ASW wing for future. Liked we it or not, NATO countries are well connected grid.

    Well, UK did not cease having ASW aircraft, they just reduced their number compared to Cold War, its doubtful they would ever completely remove any type of military hardware, except strategic bombers which they already did.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:59 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Hahahahaha... tell them that... I am sure that will make them feel much better.
    If that is the case why don't they save even more money and retire Trident Subs and Aircraft Carriers... the US has plenty of those... surely they would share in war time...

    Removing parts of it? Repairing it? I would not know.
    [/quote]

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6927395.stm
    Russia plants flag under N Pole

    It was in 2007.

    Maybe it is an interesting infromation , but the lomov ridge shallow enought to be used as seabed sonar platform.

    Means that in 2007 they installed / repaired underwater sonar system on the north pole. As the most plauible reason why they sent a nucelar icebreaker and a few mroe ship there : )

    An interesting question , why russia has deep sea tianium mini subs? for oceanogrphy purposes.



    http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-Russia%20seeks%20submarine%20advantage%20in%20Arctic.html
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:12 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Hahahahaha... tell them that... I am sure that will make them feel much better.
    If that is the case why don't they save even more money and retire Trident Subs and Aircraft Carriers... the US has plenty of those... surely they would share in war time...

    Removing parts of it? Repairing it? I would not know.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6927395.stm
    Russia plants flag under N Pole

    It was in 2007.

    Maybe it is an interesting infromation , but the lomov ridge shallow enought to be used as seabed sonar platform.

    Means that in 2007 they installed / repaired underwater sonar system on the north pole. As the most plauible reason why they sent a nucelar icebreaker and a few mroe ship there : )

    An interesting question ,  why russia has deep sea tianium mini subs? for oceanogrphy purposes.



    http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-Russia%20seeks%20submarine%20advantage%20in%20Arctic.html

    From what i am aware those missions had nothing to do with underwater cables or sonar systems, it was bunch of missions that were used to collect proof of Artic being on continental shelf of Russia which would allow them to pledge claim on its resources.

    Now they might, would, could, maybe, what if... did something regarding underwater cables too, but nothing on major scale yet, thats for sure. I expect them to refresh instalations of this type in Baltic first.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:30 am

    Militarov wrote:

    From what i am aware those missions had nothing to do with underwater cables or sonar systems, it was bunch of missions that were used to collect proof of Artic being on continental shelf of Russia which would allow them to pledge claim on its resources.

    Now they might, would, could, maybe, what if... did something regarding underwater cables too, but nothing on major scale yet, thats for sure. I expect them to refresh instalations of this type in Baltic first.


    So, you think that they maintaining midget deeps sea subs and special purpose nuic subs to plant flags to the seabed?

    The seabed mission actually showing that the RU MIL spent a lot of money to maintain this capability .

    For what?



    So, do you have confirmed information about example the Chinese sea island chain monitoring stations?
    Or the Chinese monitoring stations?


    This stuffs are waaay out of any sight, means that there is next to zero information about them.


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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:24 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    From what i am aware those missions had nothing to do with underwater cables or sonar systems, it was bunch of missions that were used to collect proof of Artic being on continental shelf of Russia which would allow them to pledge claim on its resources.

    Now they might, would, could, maybe, what if... did something regarding underwater cables too, but nothing on major scale yet, thats for sure. I expect them to refresh instalations of this type in Baltic first.


    So, you think that they maintaining midget deeps sea subs and special purpose nuic subs to plant flags to the seabed?

    The seabed mission actually showing that the RU MIL spent a lot of money to maintain this capability .

    For what?



    So, do you have confirmed information about example the Chinese sea island chain monitoring stations?
    Or the Chinese monitoring stations?


    This stuffs are waaay out of any sight, means that there is next to zero information about them.



    If you are talking about Mir-Mir2 and newer derivates, those are mostly used for scientific research of various kinds and assistance in rescue operations i actually think mechanical hands were removed from those.

    Underwater cables are mostly being layed by surface cable-laying ships, submersibles are sometimes used for tapping or repair but most of the time its job for cable laying ships.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:52 am


    Removing parts of it? Repairing it? I would not know.

    So you don't know what they were doing in August 2005 when a mini sub got snagged in the array... which they blamed at the time as being caught on fishing nets BTW, but you do know the operational status of all Russian Navy listening arrays.


    There was report few years back (cca 2013), refering to underwater detection line somewhere in North Sea that still exists but there was no mention of any other similar facility being still active.

    Yeah, because normally they include the GPS locations of all the secret listening posts they use to gather intel with...

    Now, they might be reintroducing, repairing or even placing new ones, but as of this moment i dont think any is currently operational, except i suppose that one Northen fleet still has. I would assume Pacific-Baltic system of a sort would be their first priority rather than Northen.

    You don't think... can you stop expecting us to agree with your assumptions until you actually know one way or the other.

    Well, see, UK is in such position that it has Spain, Portugal and France under-next to it and whole bunch of countries above it that operate own maritime patrol and ASW aircraft fleets, often even US Orions reside in the UK. Also they ordered P-8s to refresh their ASW wing for future. Liked we it or not, NATO countries are well connected grid.

    So if they are so well off in regards to allies why would they purchase P-8s... I mean if they are at no disadvantage not having their own ASW MPAs...

    Well, UK did not cease having ASW aircraft, they just reduced their number compared to Cold War, its doubtful they would ever completely remove any type of military hardware, except strategic bombers which they already did.

    They replaced their Nimrods in service... with nothing. The equivalent to Russia retiring its Il-38s and Tu-142s and introducing... nothing.

    Of course Mr double standard says that means the UK is OK and Russia is in deep shit as usual...


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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Removing parts of it? Repairing it? I would not know.

    So you don't know what they were doing in August 2005 when a mini sub got snagged in the array... which they blamed at the time as being caught on fishing nets BTW, but you do know the operational status of all Russian Navy listening arrays.


    There was report few years back (cca 2013), refering to underwater detection line somewhere in North Sea that still exists but there was no mention of any other similar facility being still active.

    Yeah, because normally they include the GPS locations of all the secret listening posts they use to gather intel with...

    Now, they might be reintroducing, repairing or even placing new ones, but as of this moment i dont think any is currently operational, except i suppose that one Northen fleet still has. I would assume Pacific-Baltic system of a sort would be their first priority rather than Northen.

    You don't think... can you stop expecting us to agree with your assumptions until you actually know one way or the other.

    Well, see, UK is in such position that it has Spain, Portugal and France under-next to it and whole bunch of countries above it that operate own maritime patrol and ASW aircraft fleets, often even US Orions reside in the UK. Also they ordered P-8s to refresh their ASW wing for future. Liked we it or not, NATO countries are well connected grid.

    So if they are so well off in regards to allies why would they purchase P-8s... I mean if they are at no disadvantage not having their own ASW MPAs...

    Well, UK did not cease having ASW aircraft, they just reduced their number compared to Cold War, its doubtful they would ever completely remove any type of military hardware, except strategic bombers which they already did.

    They replaced their Nimrods in service... with nothing. The equivalent to Russia retiring its Il-38s and Tu-142s and introducing... nothing.

    Of course Mr double standard says that means the UK is OK and Russia is in deep shit as usual...

    Actually... i belive SOSUS atm has GPS recievers that are accessible by civilian structures too for maritime research. So.... yeah?

    As i said already those subs are not used for cable-laying, at the best are used for observation of the cable state or some assistance during repair. Cables are layed by cable-laying ships, list of which we have, so if someone cared that much could check their deployments last few years and see where they were active.

    They forced maritime patrol role from Nimrods onto C-130s for now and C3I onto Sentries for now till adequate replacement gets selected, but seems it will be role taken by P-8s we mentioned above.

    UK is not trying to position itself as superpowere, Russa is. While tiny Japan triples your ASW/maritime patrol capabilities its sort of funny, but if its okay, sure, dont mind me i am just thinking loud.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Actually... i belive SOSUS atm has GPS recievers that are accessible by civilian structures too for maritime research. So.... yeah?

    As i said already those subs are not used for cable-laying, at the best are used for observation of the cable state or some assistance during repair. Cables are layed by cable-laying ships, list of which we have, so if someone cared that much could check their deployments last few years and see where they were active.

    They forced maritime patrol role from Nimrods onto C-130s for now and C3I onto Sentries for now till adequate replacement gets selected, but seems it will be role taken by P-8s we mentioned above.

    UK is not trying to position itself as superpowere, Russa is. While tiny Japan triples your ASW/maritime patrol capabilities its sort of funny, but if its okay, sure, dont mind me i am just thinking loud.

    So, basic geography:
    Best part of the Russian coastline covered with ice during wither, and best part of the sea around Russia covered all year long as well.

    So maritime patrol air-planes useless on the 30-80% of the sea , depending on season.

    Means that example a poseidon P-8 useful only to hunt polar bears with the torpedoes and sonabouys. Maybe it can hit them on the head, and entertain the bored crew.


    The only way to collect data about enemy submarines ( with say 120 tomahawk rocket) is to plant passive sonar onto the seabed.

    By quick calculation Russia has 8 million sqkm EEZ , it needs something like 1000 passive sonar to cover ALL of this area.


    The area needs no more than 80 000 km of cable ( way less actually, it is lazy and rough calculation)
    The cable network is the most expensive part of the story, the sonars cant cost more than 3 billion $( actually one sonabuy cost less than 5000 $, so the 3 billion maybe a bit stretch by one magnitude) .

    The cabling can't cost more than 8 billion, but is is maybe one magnitude more than the real cost.

    It means the whole sensor network cost less than four helicopter carrier, and more capable, considering the helicopter carrier can't operate on ice.

    Actually no ship/submarine can get close to the shores by more than 700 km.

    All that the system needs is torpedo/rocket carrying platform , see bastion/kilo/nuc subs around arctic.


    Additional information: it is pretty hard to use cable laying ship on the ice : p.

    And actually you need a pair of hands to connect the sonars to the cabling.And the sonar cables needs directional laying at least perpendicularly from the data collector.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:02 am

    Actually... i belive SOSUS atm has GPS recievers that are accessible by civilian structures too for maritime research. So.... yeah?


    Why would fixed structures like SOSUS need GPS receivers?

    Or are you suggesting it is a mobile array whose position shifts and it needs to keep a record of its own location...

    That would be like needing a GPS receiver for your house... I can understand wanting one for your car... but for something that is not mobile it is a bit of a waste of time and money.

    As i said already those subs are not used for cable-laying, at the best are used for observation of the cable state or some assistance during repair. Cables are layed by cable-laying ships, list of which we have, so if someone cared that much could check their deployments last few years and see where they were active.

    Deep submergence RESCUE vehicles are for cable tampering and surveillance... they are not used to lay cable.

    They forced maritime patrol role from Nimrods onto C-130s for now and C3I onto Sentries for now till adequate replacement gets selected, but seems it will be role taken by P-8s we mentioned above.


    So they can't rely on their allies assets after all?

    UK is not trying to position itself as superpowere, Russa is.

    The UK is not giving up its seat on the UNSC... I would say it believes itself to be a superpower... though not the dominant one of course.

    While tiny Japan triples your ASW/maritime patrol capabilities its sort of funny, but if its okay, sure, dont mind me i am just thinking loud.

    I don't have an ASW capabilities... and Japan is an island that would be very vulnerable to a Russian sub launching a cruise missile attack from a thousand kms distance. The US is an island too. But the strange thing is that while the UK is an island its ASW capabilities are even weaker than russian defences... to the point of being pathetic... yet you turn your nose up at the Russian defences and give excuses for the UK. I guess it must be stockholm syndrome... perhaps when the UK starts giving you its old fighter planes and the next time Russia bombs Serbia you might reverse your opinion... or not.

    The Russians on the other hand could simply ignore its sea lines of communication and defend its own areas and be fine from Sub threats... not invulnerable but also not able to be defeated by them.


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:17 am

    Militarov wrote:UK is not trying to position itself as superpowere, Russa is. While tiny Japan triples your ASW/maritime patrol capabilities its sort of funny, but if its okay, sure, dont mind me i am just thinking loud.

    No, I do not agree with Russia trying to position itself as superpower. Going to a multipolar world, means that there are not superpowers. The current trend is more about the decline of the US as superpower, than about the raising of new superpowers. A multipolar world means a world of regional powers.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:21 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Actually... i belive SOSUS atm has GPS recievers that are accessible by civilian structures too for maritime research. So.... yeah?

    As i said already those subs are not used for cable-laying, at the best are used for observation of the cable state or some assistance during repair. Cables are layed by cable-laying ships, list of which we have, so if someone cared that much could check their deployments last few years and see where they were active.

    They forced maritime patrol role from Nimrods onto C-130s for now and C3I onto Sentries for now till adequate replacement gets selected, but seems it will be role taken by P-8s we mentioned above.

    UK is not trying to position itself as superpowere, Russa is. While tiny Japan triples your ASW/maritime patrol capabilities its sort of funny, but if its okay, sure, dont mind me i am just thinking loud.

    So, basic geography:
    Best part of the Russian coastline covered with ice during wither, and best part of the sea around Russia covered as well.

    Means that the maritime patrol air-planes useless on the 30-80% of the sea , depending on season.

    Means that example a poseidon P-8 useful only to hunt polar bears with the torpedoes and sonabouys.  Maybe it can hit them on the head, and entertain the bored crew.

    It means that the only way to collect data about enemy submarines ( with say 120 tomahawk rocket) is to plant passive sonar onto the seabed.

    By quick calculation Russia has 8 million sqkkm EEZ , it needs something like 1000 passive sonar to cover ALL of this area.
    I

    The area needs no more than 80 000 km of cable ( way less actually, it is the lazy and worst calculation)
    The cable network is the most expensive part of the story, the sonars cant cost more than 3 billion $( actually one sonabuy cost less than 5000 $, so the 3 billion maybe a bit stretch) .

    The cabling can't cost more than 8 billion.

    It means the whole sensor network cost less than four helicopter carrier, and more capable.

    Actually no ship/submarine can get close to the shores by more than 700 km.

    All that the system needs is torpedo/rocket carrying platform , see bastion/kilo/nuc subs around arctic.


    Additional information: it is pretty hard to use cable laying ship on the ice : p.

    And actually you need a pair of hands to connect the sonars to the cabling.And the sonar cables needs directional laying at least perpendicularly  from the data collector.

    I am not sure how maritime patrol looks in your mind but ice has nothing to do with it, you have regular maritime patrol flights around Alaska. ASW is wartime operation most of the time, maritime patrol in peacetime is often conducted by aircraft that even lack any offensive capability.

    P8 has surface search radar, SIGINT equipment, acoustic sensor system which can use sonobuoy but is not limited to them and Advanced Airborne Sensor (thats an actual designation) and there is actually system developed to deal with ice interfearance, problems with which actually delayed project for a while due to hardware issues.

    Noone ever went and started laying cables in january in North Sea, that would be just silly and very dangerous, and even if they did, it would be done with help of icebreaker, all equipment is being assembled on the cable laying ship, attached and placed into sea as they lay the cable.

    Not even at the peak of USSR there was that much underwater line placed i am afraid.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Actually... i belive SOSUS atm has GPS recievers that are accessible by civilian structures too for maritime research. So.... yeah?


    Why would fixed structures like SOSUS need GPS receivers?

    Or are you suggesting it is a mobile array whose position shifts and it needs to keep a record of its own location...

    That would be like needing a GPS receiver for your house... I can understand wanting one for your car... but for something that is not mobile it is a bit of a waste of time and money.

    As i said already those subs are not used for cable-laying, at the best are used for observation of the cable state or some assistance during repair. Cables are layed by cable-laying ships, list of which we have, so if someone cared that much could check their deployments last few years and see where they were active.

    Deep submergence RESCUE vehicles are for cable tampering and surveillance... they are not used to lay cable.

    They forced maritime patrol role from Nimrods onto C-130s for now and C3I onto Sentries for now till adequate replacement gets selected, but seems it will be role taken by P-8s we mentioned above.


    So they can't rely on their allies assets after all?

    UK is not trying to position itself as superpowere, Russa is.

    The UK is not giving up its seat on the UNSC... I would say it believes itself to be a superpower... though not the dominant one of course.

    While tiny Japan triples your ASW/maritime patrol capabilities its sort of funny, but if its okay, sure, dont mind me i am just thinking loud.

    I don't have an ASW capabilities... and Japan is an island that would be very vulnerable to a Russian sub launching a cruise missile attack from a thousand kms distance. The US is an island too. But the strange thing is that while the UK is an island its ASW capabilities are even weaker than russian defences... to the point of being pathetic... yet you turn your nose up at the Russian defences and give excuses for the UK. I guess it must be stockholm syndrome... perhaps when the UK starts giving you its old fighter planes and the next time Russia bombs Serbia you might reverse your opinion... or not.

    The Russians on the other hand could simply ignore its sea lines of communication and defend its own areas and be fine from Sub threats... not invulnerable but also not able to be defeated by them.

    So, Russians tempering own underwater cables? Good call.

    No, SOSUS is fixed installation, however US is using dozens of contractors and research institutions that work and use it or do maintenance etc. Now, using charts in this age would be abit unpractical to say at least, missing its positoin by 300m is not a small thing. Also its not out of question for such cables to move abit or get covered partially by sand or corals i suppose, after all its seabed its everchanging. Its just far simplier for navigation. Fiber optic lines today are even dig in partially into sand which was not the case back in time. Biologist use today damn thing to track whales and orcas...

    So yeah, GPS or low frequency emmiters are the thing since it was declassified.

    Yess.. but Japanese coast is "stacked up", its all there. Russian coast is basically a line, its immense. In ideal situation they would need like...5 or 6 times more maritime patrol aircraft than Japan. To switch coasts Japanese maritime patrol aircraft needs to fly 100 miles, Russian to switch from Baltic to Pacific would need to land 4 times for fuel.

    Maritime patrol is not exclusive for military applications, its used for iceberg tracking, observing weather, search and rescue, maritime research of many kinds...

    I said... they can afford to reduce number of platforms, and that they can afford it, i never said they are going to completely remove maritime patrol. And same case as with Japan, UK is fairly small island, there are not huge stretched coastlines, aircrat can cross whole UK i 2h.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:Japan is an island that would be very vulnerable to a Russian sub launching a cruise missile attack from a thousand kms distance.

    It wouldn't matter as the Russian Pacific fleet can barely keep a couple or so of Oscar II on deployment at anytime. Same number of SSNs in those seas. This is too low of a number to be of significance for an industrial and Naval/ASW power that Japan is. And Soryus can really sail quite far out to keep things in check underwater, if needed.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:04 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    I am not sure how maritime patrol looks in your mind but ice has nothing to do with it, you have regular maritime patrol flights around Alaska. ASW is wartime operation most of the time, maritime patrol in peacetime is often conducted by aircraft that even lack any offensive capability.

    P8 has surface search radar, SIGINT equipment, acoustic sensor system which can use sonobuoy but is not limited to them and Advanced Airborne Sensor (thats an actual designation) and there is actually system developed to deal with ice interfearance, problems with which actually delayed project for a while due to hardware issues.

    Noone ever went and started laying cables in january in North Sea, that would be just silly and very dangerous, and even if they did, it would be done with help of icebreaker, all equipment is being assembled on the cable laying ship, attached and placed into sea as they lay the cable.

    Not even at the peak of USSR there was that much underwater line placed i am afraid.

    So, the Poseidon ha two detector: one maritime radaar, and a pile of sonabouys.

    As it seems by your comment the sonar actualy can't see too much thing above ice, the sunobouy is useless above ice as well.

    So, a maritime patrol aircraft can only detect an icebreaker , but nothing else,

    The P-8 hasn't got a MAD, because of the high altitude.

    And there is no magic wand the can show a submarine under the ice from a 12 km altitude aircraft.

    So, this kind of aircraft has very limited utility for russia.

    Best part of the russian EEZ is under permanent ice.So you have to use submarines.

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:11 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Japan is an island that would be very vulnerable to a Russian sub launching a cruise missile attack from a thousand kms distance.

    It wouldn't matter as the Russian Pacific fleet can barely keep a couple or so of Oscar II on deployment at anytime. Same number of SSNs in those seas. This is too low of a number to be of significance for an industrial and Naval/ASW power that Japan is. And Soryus can really sail quite far out to keep things in check underwater, if needed.

    Russian pacific fleet can cover the whole japan island even from the home port with rockets.

    Additionaly quite big part of the sea around japan covred by the russian air defense , os not so much chance for a maritime patrol aircraft.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:00 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    I am not sure how maritime patrol looks in your mind but ice has nothing to do with it, you have regular maritime patrol flights around Alaska. ASW is wartime operation most of the time, maritime patrol in peacetime is often conducted by aircraft that even lack any offensive capability.

    P8 has surface search radar,  SIGINT equipment, acoustic sensor system which can use sonobuoy but is not limited to them and Advanced Airborne Sensor (thats an actual designation) and there is actually system developed to deal with ice interfearance, problems with which actually delayed project for a while due to hardware issues.

    Noone ever went and started laying cables in january in North Sea, that would be just silly and very dangerous, and even if they did, it would be done with help of icebreaker, all equipment is being assembled on the cable laying ship, attached and placed into sea as they lay the cable.

    Not even at the peak of USSR there was that much underwater line placed i am afraid.

    So, the Poseidon ha two detector: one maritime radaar, and a pile of sonabouys.

    As it seems by your comment the sonar actualy can't see too much thing above ice, the sunobouy is useless above ice as well.

    So, a maritime patrol aircraft can only detect an icebreaker , but nothing else,

    The P-8 hasn't got a MAD, because of the high altitude.

    And there is no magic wand the can show a submarine under the ice from a 12 km altitude aircraft.

    So, this kind of aircraft has very limited utility for russia.

    Best part of the russian EEZ is under permanent ice.So you have to use submarines.


    That actually depends how thick is the ice, i belive IEER can work on ice too if its not extremly thick which is rarely on open ocean.

    When its about MAD i belive Indian and UK P-8s will have it, while USN opted aganist it seems partially because they want to introduce new type of sonobouys called MAC which pulse for prolonged period of time till onboard battery runs off. And seems they want to keep MAD sensors on ASW helicopters and future ASW UAV-s rather than P-8s, looks that idea is that UAVs should do low altitude search and P-8s high altitude search, however 12km altitude sounds abit too high for me, i belive average altitude from which it will be operated is more like 6-8km.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:54 am

    So, Russians tempering own underwater cables? Good call.

    What are you talking about?

    Russian subs maintain their own cables and tamper with the cables and systems of enemies like US and UK and EU.

    So yeah, GPS or low frequency emmiters are the thing since it was declassified.

    SOSUS existed in the 1960s when GPS didn't exist so it can't be that critical.

    In ideal situation they would need like...5 or 6 times more maritime patrol aircraft than Japan.

    With the addition of sea bed arrays they would not.

    To switch coasts Japanese maritime patrol aircraft needs to fly 100 miles, Russian to switch from Baltic to Pacific would need to land 4 times for fuel.

    And how often would you want to switch from the Baltic to the Pacific?

    Most of the time you would not.

    Maritime patrol is not exclusive for military applications, its used for iceberg tracking, observing weather, search and rescue, maritime research of many kinds...

    That is what border patrol forces are for... and ministries for emergency, research etc etc.

    For studying weather an aircraft like the Myacheshev M-17 would be more useful than a Tu-142.



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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So, Russians tempering own underwater cables? Good call.

    What are you talking about?

    Russian subs maintain their own cables and tamper with the cables and systems of enemies like US and UK and EU.

    So yeah, GPS or low frequency emmiters are the thing since it was declassified.

    SOSUS existed in the 1960s when GPS didn't exist so it can't be that critical.

    In ideal situation they would need like...5 or 6 times more maritime patrol aircraft than Japan.

    With the addition of sea bed arrays they would not.

    To switch coasts Japanese maritime patrol aircraft needs to fly 100 miles, Russian to switch from Baltic to Pacific would need to land 4 times for fuel.

    And how often would you want to switch from the Baltic to the Pacific?

    Most of the time you would not.

    Maritime patrol is not exclusive for military applications, its used for iceberg tracking, observing weather, search and rescue, maritime research of many kinds...

    That is what border patrol forces are for... and ministries for emergency, research etc etc.

    For studying weather an aircraft like the Myacheshev M-17 would be more useful than a Tu-142.


    I clearly said "after it was declassified", which happened somewhere in about 1991. i belive, before that i find it more than plausible that they had some type of LFEs.

    Maritime patrol does not equal ASW warfare first to clear that up. Also Russian Coast Guard to my knowledge has just few Antonov An-26 for transport duties.

    Well it obviously needs to happen when you have 20+ maritime patrol aircrafts on country sized as Russia. If there is conflict of some sort in Pacific you will sure as hell move your ASW assets there, you wont search for sub in Black Sea if you are fighting with Japan. There is simply not enough of them you can spread one drop of marmelade on whole bread. Japan has very tiny piece of bread and whole jar of marmelade.

    Actually i was thinking more of those 53d Weather Reconnaissance Squadron that USN operates for an example, such missions require turboprops. Such squadron would be very useful in Russian navy due to major storms and blizzards that they cope with in the North.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:19 pm

    I do not think Russia will follow the philosophy of the US on Maritime Patrol. The age of the manned Maritime Patrol aircrafts is near the end. Manned aircrafts for Maritime Patrol have shorter future than the lifetime of a new aircraft produced today.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:39 pm

    eehnie wrote:I do not think Russia will follow the philosophy of the US on Maritime Patrol. The age of the manned Maritime Patrol aircrafts is near the end. Manned aircrafts for Maritime Patrol have shorter future than the lifetime of a new aircraft produced today.

    Seems US is planning of having high altitude maritime patrol and ASW performed by manned aircraft like P-8 (and alike?, since i doubt they will completely discard turboprops mby something on C-130J platform appears in future) and low altitude one by means of UAVs.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:35 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    That actually depends how thick is the ice, i belive IEER can work on ice too if its not extremly thick which is rarely on open ocean.

    When its about MAD i belive Indian and UK P-8s will have it, while USN opted aganist it seems partially because they want to introduce new type of sonobouys called MAC which pulse for prolonged period of time till onboard battery runs off. And seems they want to keep MAD sensors on ASW helicopters and future ASW UAV-s rather than P-8s, looks that idea is that UAVs should do low altitude search and P-8s high altitude search, however 12km altitude sounds abit too high for me, i belive average altitude from which it will be operated is more like 6-8km.

    As I see the IEER actually the data collection system from the sonabouys.

    Means if there is ice then you need heavy, rugged (and expensive) sonabouy to crack the ice.


    And above certain thickness it is not possible at all.

    And even if you crack the ice the emitter will stuck under the ice, blocking the UHF transmitter.

    So, no, you won't be able to use it on ice.

    The P-8 fly 12 km high to observe bigger area, and to have longer loiter time.
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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:41 pm




    Just for reference, this is a heavy, maximum ice condition on the Russian EEZ.

    Patrol aircraft can be used only a very small area.

    Means it is impossible to detect submarines with aircraft, they need seabed sonars.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Naval Aviation: News

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:05 pm

    They can still go for cheaper civilian jet converted for patroling like Dassault falcon jet. No need for an expensive aircraft that will be shot down if it goes near a destroyer or if intercepted by a fighter. Their role is not that important in my opinion. Maybe a big simple drone widely produce can be better.

    The space between Japan and Russia can be covered by 4 Su-35's radars and all ships will be detected with the option of defending themeselves and the ability of attacking with a variety of different missiles.

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