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    Su-27: News

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:35 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:There are a lot of Su-27's in reserve and what not in Russia.  Upgrading them all with latest electronics and capabilities to be able to defeat modern American aircraft is ideal and probably very cheap to do.

    What's good about them is that many are mid-80s up to early-90s builds. They flew very little in the 90s and 00s. So their air-frames have a two decade breathing room compared to, say.. F-15E in USAF. Russia should use every single one of them as they are still top of the line jets.

    It's a pity Ukraine ended up with quite a lot of them after USSR collapsed.

    Exactly.  Upgrading them would prove to be much useful and cheap.  Which means a lot of money saved can then be poured into building newer jets like Su-57.

    As for Ukraine, they left them to be dilapidated and so many of them are barely flyable and capable.

    Since Russia undertook all the USSR debt and responsibilities, they should have withdrawn and kept all top notch equipment. Su-27, MiG-29, Su-25, Mi-24P are among some good examples. Third world republics like Uzbekistan got to have Flankers for free. Kazakhstan and even Belarus (that sold frickin Flankers to USA in the 90s).

    Anyhow, Russia's policy on Flanker consolidation is 100% right on the money.
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    franco

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  franco on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:47 pm

    medo wrote:
    kopyo-21 wrote:Some months ago, there was a news talking about upgrading Su-27s to Su-27SM3 (that have been newly built sofar) instead of Su-27SM. Do you have any update on that?

    Contract to modernize 36 Su-27 to Su-27SM3 standard was signed and the first group of Su-27 jets is now in KNAAPO, where they are going through modernization. Unfortunately there is no info, when they will be finished and delivered back to RuAF.


    Planned for delivery of first 4 this year.
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    AMCXXL

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:53 am

    franco wrote:
    medo wrote:
    kopyo-21 wrote:Some months ago, there was a news talking about upgrading Su-27s to Su-27SM3 (that have been newly built sofar) instead of Su-27SM. Do you have any update on that?

    Contract to modernize 36 Su-27 to Su-27SM3 standard was signed and the first group of Su-27 jets is now in KNAAPO, where they are going through modernization. Unfortunately there is no info, when they will be finished and delivered back to RuAF.


    Planned for delivery of first 4 this year.


    PLease read again the bmpd article about the Su-27SM(3) supposed contract:

    mack8 wrote:According to an insider  quoted by bmpd, there is a contract for 36 Su-27S/P to be upgraded to SM3 standard by KnAAZ  between 2016-2020!
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1304532.html

    A new contract for the modernization of the Su-27?
    Bmpd May 17th 2015
    The well-known participant of the web forum forums.airforce.ru under the nickname "Azochen Wei" informs about the information about the new agreement on modernization for the Ministry of Defense of Russia of 36 fighters of 36 Su-27S (P) in the variant Su-27SM (3) in the period 2016-2020 . Works will be carried out by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant named after Yu.A. Gagarin (a branch of OAO Sukhoi Company):



    It is not a affirmation , It is a question "???"
    There is not any contract for 36 Su-27SM(3)
    "A insider" , "a well known" fórum, etc... this are rumors
    "An insider" does not sign contracts,
    Contracts are signed by the Ministry of Defense and are published in the official government newspaper


    TODAY , It appears that only 4 su-27SM3 have been signed for this year, and is suposed the total will be 10 at least , or 12 as much, if other sqdn. of Su-27SM is necesary in Kaliningrad (as only 10 SM´s available), when Chkalovsk at Kaliningrad Oblast , it is reopened
    Only 10 Su-27P have been reserved for send to KnaAPO for Su-27SM(3) modernization. As I explained before, no more are needed if no more bases are opened
    The information about 36, was in the date when Putin asked Lukasheko for open a regiment at Baranovichi, even a detachment of Su-27P from Besovets was deployed in Belarus.
    However, Belarus rejected the proposition and now wants SU-30SM , for have its own units


    SU-27SM3 simply are not necesary, in fact, with new SU-35 and Su-30SM are outdated
    The 12 SU-27SM(3) were a "emergency purchase" of KnaaPO remnants, because most Su-27 of Krymsk (3 squadrons at that time) was obsolete and unserviceable , and the Su-35 program was delayed
    If SU-35 program had started a just a little earlier , then , today would have a SU-35 squadron at Krymsk , instead the SU-27SM(3) one


    The count is simple. In next 4 years Rusia willl receive at least 40 SU-35 (2017 and 2018 will receive only 10 because China will get other 10)
    By 2020 there will be 6 Su-27/35 regiments or 12 squadrons in the VVS:
    -2 complete regiments (Dzemgi and Vladivostok) : 4 squadrons of Su-35S
    -3 regts mixed SU-35 and Su-27SM (Besovets,Belbek and Khotilovo,that probably will be dislocated, as happens with 22 IAP,and SU-27/35 will retrun to Dorokhovo) Then 3 sq. of Su-35 and 3 sq. of Su-27SM
    -1 regiment at Krymsk with one sqdn. of new SU-27SM(3) and one modernized sqdn. of SU-27SM(3)

    Total: 8 new sq. (7 SU-35 & 1 Su-27SM(3) ) and 4 modernized (1 SU-27SM(3) and 3 SU-27SM)
    The 4 modernized sqdns. and the new sq. of Su-27SM(3) will be replaced for 5 sqdn  of Su-35 in 2021-2025 until reached 12 Su-35 sqdns = 144. Other 20-24 planes for training/display/test , total 165-170
    The 2 SU-27SM(3) sqdns. , both new and modernized could be used then by the navy at Kaliningrad or sent to outstanding bases (Latakia, Kant , etc...)


    This year KnaAPO will hand over 10 SU-35 and 4 Su-27SM(3)  to VVS
    Because of the China hurry , KnaAPO cannot hand over 14 Su-35 to Russian VVS, as the year 2015 ,
    If KnaAPO could hand over 14 Su-35 for Russia and 6 for China , China would get 24 in 4 years, instead three years, and in that case no SU-27SM(3) would be modernized for Russia

    Su-27SM(3) had been necesary 10-15 years ago but today is not necesary , because its skills already has the SU-30SM and/or Su-35, or even better.


    Last edited by AMCXXL on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:58 am

    .
    Well there is no shortage of really good off-the-shelf equipment that they could easily install on Su-27 and they have loads of them available so why not?
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    AMCXXL

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:51 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:There are a lot of Su-27's in reserve and what not in Russia.  Upgrading them all with latest electronics and capabilities to be able to defeat modern American aircraft is ideal and probably very cheap to do.

    What's good about them is that many are mid-80s up to early-90s builds. They flew very little in the 90s and 00s. So their air-frames have a two decade breathing room compared to, say.. F-15E in USAF. Russia should use every single one of them as they are still top of the line jets.

    It's a pity Ukraine ended up with quite a lot of them after USSR collapsed.

    How many is "a lot of" ?

    Sorry to say , but most of out of service SU-27S´s was scrapped or are parked waiting for scrapping

    Today , Russia airforce has:
    -60 modernized (12 SU-27SM3 new built & 2 refurbised , and 46 Su-27SM)
    -About 80 not modernized , and this includes about 45-50 Su-27P , 25 SU-27UB and half a dozen Su-27S still in flight)

    -10 Su-27P are waiting for modernization
    -other 10 SU-27P are parked at repair plants
    -One squadron of 14 are "in reserve" at Lipestk together with other squadron of Mig-31 and about 100 Mig-29 (4020 ARB-air reserve base) , as Lipestk already only uses Su-30/35.
    This planes are SU-27SM, SU-27S/P and UB´s including two old Su-30 (SU-27PU) used at Lipestk before

    -In the Airforce bases, like Krymsk, were about 25 SU-27S parked since the base was closed for overhaul in 2011.This airplanes are going to be scrapped and recycled
    You can look in Google  >>   https://www.google.es/maps/@44.959485,38.0010409,191m/data=!3m1!1e3
    -Also can find a lot of planes at Besovets, about 35 SU-27S out of order and waiting the same destination
    -Also in ARZ´s as Pushkin , Kubinka or Krasnodar you can find several derrelictic planes, stripped and used their parts as spares

    All the other SU-27S were scrapped and some has been used as "monuments" in some cities throughout Russia

    When Su-35 replace SU-27S/P , about 60 Su-27P could remain "in reserve" if are not scrapped, and after 2025 other 45 SU-27SM



    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Well there is no shortage of really good off-the-shelf equipment that they could easily install on Su-27 and they have loads of them available so why not?


    Simply not
    Modernize a Su-27 in KnaAPO is time and resources lost for Su-35 and Su-57 assembly lines. The Su-30M2/MK2 production line already was closed last year

    The airforce reform is clear, one base- one regiment of two squadrons , this means, VKS will have 6 complete regiments in 2025 just receiving one squadron of Su-35 by year
    For more planes , you need open more bases for more regiments and train new pilots , and this takes time

    Su-35 will be accompanied later as superiority fighter by Su-57, and for this it is necessary to rebuilt several bases without use today, about one base every two years, to receive the new Su-57 regiments in the period 2020-2030 and beyond , depending if VKS gets 4 , 5  or 6 SU-57 regiments
    SU-27SM / SM3 only serves to accompany the Su-35 from here to 2025, it is an amortized airplane
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Kimppis on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:57 pm

    You mean 6 regiments of Su-57s by 2030?

    Hmmm... so there should be more than 600 new 'Flankers' by the end of 2025? I mean the combined total of Su-30SMs, Su-34s, Su-35s and Su-57s? 200-300 Su-30SMs, 200 Su-34s and more than 200 Su-35s and Su-57s (combined).
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    AMCXXL

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:18 pm

    Kimppis wrote:You mean 6 regiments of Su-57s by 2030?

    Hmmm... so there should be more than 600 new 'Flankers' by the end of 2025? I mean the combined total of Su-30SMs, Su-34s, Su-35s and Su-57s? 200-300 Su-30SMs, 200 Su-34s and more than 200 Su-35s and Su-57s (combined).

    I said exactly : to receive the new Su-57 regiments in the period 2020-2030 and beyond , depending if VKS gets 4 , 5  or 6 SU-57 regiments
    And Su-57 is not a "Flanker"

    It depends of the rate of Su-57  planes handed over.
    You need at least one dozen for training/test in Astrakhan & Lipestk (excluding prototypes)
    This dozen is supossed to be deployed in 2019 and 2020
    Then , if KnaAPO can hand over 10 planes per year , in 2030 it will have 4 regiments
    If KnaAPO can produce 12 planes per year , in 2030 you will have 5 SU-57 regiments (and time enough for rebuilt 5 airbases and train the pilots)
    The 6th after 2030

    About the Su-35 , this year and the next , VKS will receive only 10 because China gets other 10
    In 2019 - 2020 the production should be 14 Russia and 6 Indonesia , then VKS in 2020 will have 7 squadrons of Su-35 and other 20 planes (Kubinka, Lipestk, Akhtubinsk)
    Later, 2021-2025 , is enough with one squadron of 12 planes per year for get the 12 squadrons in 6 regiments. The other 8 produced each year will be exported
    If VKS wants the 7th regiment in  North ,Central district or Kaliningrad is unkonow today, but is possible after 2025

    The Su-30SM will reach 100 planes this year and 116 planes in 2018 (88 VKS and 28 Navy)
    Navy needs more planes, it was said "about 50" in 2020
    This means navy need 10 in 2019 and 10 in 2020 for get 4 squadrons (48)
    Keep this rate, in 2025 Navy will have about 100 (one regiment each fleet)
    The VKS only need about 8 planes in period 2019-2025 for reach 145 planes , enough for 4 regments , the  "two seaters" of 6 SU-35 regiments and 20 planes more (Kubinka, Lipesk Astrakhan)
    This means 18 SU-30SM per year , similar rate than now. The rest of production of IAPO can be exported

    About the Su-34 , this year will be 107 in VKS and the next 123. A new contract for 3 more regiments of Su-34M  , at rate 12 per year 2019-2024 will send the total to about 195-200 about 2025. NAPO will also export other 6-8 planes per year

    The SU-30M2 will go to training units after Su-35 regiments get their Su-30SM "two seaters"

    This means to receive 50 planes in 2018:
    10 Su-35
    16 Su-30SM
    16 Su-34
    8 Mig-35

    2019 and 2020 58 planes per year:
    6 SU-57
    14 Su-35
    18 SU-30SM
    12 Su-34M
    8 Mig-35

    2021-2025 54 planes per year:
    12 Su-57
    12 Su-35
    18 SU-30SM
    12 Su-34M

    After 2025 :
    12-18 Su-57 per year
    And perhaps other regiment of Su-35
    Replacement for Mig-31BM starts 2030
    Replacement for Su-25SM/SM(3) starts 2030


    Then the total will be in 2025:
    200 Su-34
    240-250 Su-30SM (140-150 VKS & 100 in Navy)
    166 Su-35
    24 SU-27SM(3)
    75 Su-57

    705-720 planes
    630-640 "Flankers"

    In 2030:
    200 SU-34
    240-250 Su-30SM (140-150 VKS & 100 in Navy)
    166-190 SU-35 (6 - 7 regiments)
    135-165 Su-57 (5 regiments if 6th, then after 2030)

    740-805 planes


    Last edited by AMCXXL on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  Kimppis on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:01 pm

    Haha, yeah, Su-57 is only a Flanker if you really "stretch" the definition of the term, hence 'Flankers'. 'New multirole/tactical aircraft' is probably a better term for those planes.

    Then the total will be in 2025:
    200 Su-34
    240-250 Su-30SM (140-150 VKS & 100 in Navy)
    166 Su-35
    24 SU-27SM(3)
    75 Su-57

    So it seems our predictions are very similar, thanks.

    But surely Su-57 will remain in production long after 2030? Maybe they'll develop a new version with a different designation (like Su-35), but still. Atleast until the late 2030s. Of course, that is far in the future at this point.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  medo on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:19 pm

    Today Russia is not the same as in nineties and early 2000, when they faced acute money shortage. Many Su-27 are in reserve, but could be modernized and reactivated as MiG-31 was with MiG-31BM modernization of more than 100 jets. MiG-31s were in worse condition than any Su-27 as they were practicaly no more in use, because they were too expensive. In both Chechen wars Su-24 and Su-25 were the work horses, so Su-27 airframes don't have so many flying hours and overstressed structure. Spare parts are still in production, same are engines, for foreign and domestic customers.

    With producing larger number of Su-35 and Su-57, RuAF will not need that many Su-27 squadrons, but that doesn't mean they will scrapped them as they did in the nineties, when US give money for scrapping retired jets. They could still overhaul and modernize them and deliver/sell them to allies like Syria or Novorussia. After war multirole Su-27SM jets will be excellent for restoring of Syrian AF and with new engines they will have quite a lot of service life in front of them and they will be fully compatible with RuAF.
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    AMCXXL

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:34 pm

    Kimppis wrote:Haha, yeah, Su-57 is only a Flanker if you really "stretch" the definition of the term, hence 'Flankers'. 'New multirole/tactical aircraft' is probably a better term for those planes.

    Then the total will be in 2025:
    200 Su-34
    240-250 Su-30SM (140-150 VKS & 100 in Navy)
    166 Su-35
    24 SU-27SM(3)
    75 Su-57

    So it seems our predictions are very similar, thanks.

    But surely Su-57 will remain in production long after 2030? Maybe they'll develop a new version with a different designation (like Su-35), but still. Atleast until the late 2030s. Of course, that is far in the future at this point.  

    Hello:

    "Flanker" is all the family of Sukhoi based in the prototypes T-10
    All are basicly the same plane, only diference is "one seater" as Su-27 , Su-35 , Su-37  or two "seater" as Su-30 , Su-34

    The Su-57 are based on prototype T-50 , is a totally diferent plane , but yes , its is a Sukhoi

    About the numbers , are consistent with what MoD has done until now
    There are not as many planes as in 2014 or 2015 but it is a sustained effort of more than one decade until 2025

    The Su-57 will start "large-scale" production from 2020. I dont think will produce large numbers , at least while Su-35 are still producing , and only one decade of production is very little
    It will depends of how many planes wants the VKS, I think similar number to that of Su-35 , in that case probably production willl end in 2032 or 2033 for VKS of Russia

    After that will come the fighters of 6th generation


    medo wrote:Today Russia is not the same as in nineties and early 2000, when they faced acute money shortage. Many Su-27 are in reserve, but could be modernized and reactivated as MiG-31 was with MiG-31BM modernization of more than 100 jets. MiG-31s were in worse condition than any Su-27 as they were practicaly no more in use, because they were too expensive. In both Chechen wars Su-24 and Su-25 were the work horses, so Su-27 airframes don't have so many flying hours and overstressed structure. Spare parts are still in production, same are engines, for foreign and domestic customers.

    With producing larger number of Su-35 and Su-57, RuAF will not need that many Su-27 squadrons, but that doesn't mean they will scrapped them as they did in the nineties, when US give money for scrapping retired jets. They could still overhaul and modernize them and deliver/sell them to allies like Syria or Novorussia. After war multirole Su-27SM jets will be excellent for restoring of Syrian AF and with new engines they will have quite a lot of service life in front of them and they will be fully compatible with RuAF.

    Sorry to say not again:

    Read previous post , there are not Su-27 "in reserve" most of retired airplanes habe been scrapped and recycled to recover material like gold, silver and other rare metals of which there are many kilograms in each airplane.
    In 2020 it will only be able to count on some 60 Su-27P , and the production lines are at full capacity, there is no place or money to do anything with them

    Mig-31 was the only plane modernized because there are not any similar now for replace them
    The planes Su-24 and Su-25 are tactical bombers , attack airplanes, the Su-27 is a superiority fighter , has a totally different role
    You can not compare an air force of a medium country that must have all airplanes of one type , and for that reason all  multirole, with the air force of a superpower , and giant country like Russia
    Russia has a very different military doctrine than Italy Francia or Sweden

    SU-27SM was only adding some ground attack capability to the Su-27 and doing it a little "multirole"
    Today that much improved capacity has the Su-30SM, so that more Su-27SM are not necessary
    In addition the airplanes do not sail without pilots , you cannot fly the retired planes
    New pilots are training with new planes

    I agree that they could sell or donate planes to Novorussia or Syria, there are a lot of MiG-29´s just retired, for example 6 go to Servia
    I would sell the "Algerian" Mig-29SMT cheaply to Syria and give some MiG-29´s to Novorussia


    Last edited by AMCXXL on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:14 pm

    Do you think Russia will keep overall orders of Su-35 low because of Su-57? I would wager that Su-35 would be more ideal for Russia as it is relatively cheap and very capable, along with being a single seater thus less taxing on number of pilots needed per plane (just 1). I noticed MiG-35 isn't mentioned in your list, neither is MiG-31. Unless you aren't counting interceptors and the pity order.
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    AMCXXL

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:32 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Do you think Russia will keep overall orders of Su-35 low because of Su-57? I would wager that Su-35 would be more ideal for Russia as it is relatively cheap and very capable, along with being a single seater thus less taxing on number of pilots needed per plane (just 1). I noticed MiG-35 isn't mentioned in your list, neither is MiG-31. Unless you aren't counting interceptors and the pity order.

    We are counting Sukhois , because this is a Sukhoi topic
    But I have mentioned Mig-35 in the list of planes received each year
    The Mig-31 it is clear that the modernization is near to complete in a couple or 3 years
    MiG-35 only will be purchased in low numbers, 16-18 for Yerevan and 6-8 for Kubinka ( It is logical if you want to exhibit for export)
    It is only a political purchase, necesary to give oxigen to MiG , expecting for export orders

    Orders of Su-35 are not high or low, simply is about one squadron per year , you cannot buy all planes in 5 years, no money enough , no pilots enough , and not necesary
    The planing of each airplane project  , it is a sustained effort of more than two decades including developement phase , about 15 years of production

    What VKS would like as I see:
    Air defence:
    200 Su-57
    200 Su-35
    110 Mig-31BM (+40 Navy)
    Frontal aviation:
    200 Su-30SM (+ 100 Navy)
    200 Su-34
    24 Mig-35 that really dont want (+24 Mig-29K Navy)
    And the SU-25 modernization

    What VKS will have as it seems:
    Air defence:
    135-165 Su-57
    165-190 Su-35
    110 Mig-31BM (+ 40 Navy)
    Frontal aviation:
    150 Su-30SM (+100 Navy)
    200 Su-34
    50 Su.29SMT
    24 Mig-35 (+24 Mig-29K Navy)
    ANd the SU-25 modernization

    If VKS could get away the "Algerian" MiG-29SMT´s by selling them to some small country , then perhaps another Mig-35 regiment would be bought instead them
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Su-27: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:15 am

    .
    The Seven Most Dangerous Su-27s in the World: Kaliningrad's Flankers range across the Baltic


    http://warisboring.com/the-seven-most-dangerous-su-27s-in-the-world-2/

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