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    New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

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    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:52 am

    I wonder if expertise in ICBM financially helps Russia. They don't seem to sellable weapons so their only purpose seems to be prestige and ensuring MAD. But MAD is already assured because Russian ICBMs are all far more advanced than any US nuclear carrier system.

    Also could the sarmat help Russian foreign policy?

    Its not that there shouldn't be ICBM development, but investing vast amounts of money in an area where Russia is already 30-40 years ahead technologically to any other nuclear country seems to be a bit excessive. Wouldn't all these rubles be put to better use in investing in for example, the Russian aircraft or ship industry and only start developing new ICBMs in the 2030s?
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  franco on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:05 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I wonder if expertise in ICBM financially helps Russia. They don't seem to sellable weapons so their only purpose seems to be prestige and ensuring MAD. But MAD is already assured because Russian ICBMs are all far more advanced than any US nuclear  carrier system.  

    Also could the sarmat help Russian foreign policy?

    Its not that there shouldn't be ICBM development, but investing vast amounts of money in an area where Russia is already 30-40 years ahead technologically to any other nuclear country seems to be a bit excessive. Wouldn't all these rubles be put to better use in investing in for example, the Russian aircraft or ship industry and only start developing new ICBMs in the 2030s?

    The SS-18 which this weapon is to replace has about 5 years of life left.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:18 am

    franco wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I wonder if expertise in ICBM financially helps Russia. They don't seem to sellable weapons so their only purpose seems to be prestige and ensuring MAD. But MAD is already assured because Russian ICBMs are all far more advanced than any US nuclear  carrier system.  

    Also could the sarmat help Russian foreign policy?

    Its not that there shouldn't be ICBM development, but investing vast amounts of money in an area where Russia is already 30-40 years ahead technologically to any other nuclear country seems to be a bit excessive. Wouldn't all these rubles be put to better use in investing in for example, the Russian aircraft or ship industry and only start developing new ICBMs in the 2030s?

    The SS-18 which this weapon is to replace has about 5 years of life left.

    But all western ICBMs are from the 60s and there are no plans to replace them.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:21 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:............
    But all western ICBMs are from the 60s and there are no plans to replace them.

    Different defense doctrine.

    USA relies on SSBNs for nuclear deterrence, Russia puts heavier emphasis on land based ones in comparison.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:22 am

    Western ICBMs were not made in the Ukraine, and are not currently facing a deployed ABM system located in Europe, soon Asia and the US...


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:18 am

    GarryB wrote:Western ICBMs were not made in the Ukraine, and are not currently facing a deployed ABM system located in Europe, soon Asia and the US...

    US ABM systems feature very shitty missile technology decades behind the S-400. And even if it did destroy a few ICBMs, there is no gaurantee that most won't make it and even a single nuclear blast on US soil is unacceptable for American politicians, so the ABM is a waste of money that doesn't stop MAD. Even if you're gonna lecture me about the madness of neocons, they're inherently cowards and don't wanna lose credibility by causing a second nuclear crisis. That makes the Sarmat, kinda redundant.

    In short, the ABM is similar to the bomber gap and star wars, worthless money sinks that benefit Russia, but Russia shouldn't waste money also.


    Last edited by KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:20 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:............
    But all western ICBMs are from the 60s and there are no plans to replace them.

    Different defense doctrine.

    USA relies on SSBNs for nuclear deterrence, Russia puts heavier emphasis on land based ones in comparison.

    And NATO SLBMs are obsolete tridents that have no replacements for now, so the NATO nuclear triad is behind Russia's in absolutely every area. Russia should continue with the Bulava and up the production of the Yars and barguzin, but lay off the sarmat for a while.

    I ask again, how does Ballistic missile technology help Russia monetarily?
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:02 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:.......
    And NATO SLBMs are obsolete tridents that have no replacements for now, so the NATO nuclear triad is behind Russia's in absolutely every area. Russia should continue with the Bulava and up the production of the Yars and barguzin, but lay off the sarmat for a while.

    I ask again, how does Ballistic missile technology help Russia monetarily?

    I have no idea where this myth of Trident obsolescence comes from but even if it is somehow true US submarines that carry them are most definitely not obsolete and those Tridents will certainly be hitting targets should they be launched.

    As for monetary benefits of ballistic missile development those projects are tops secret so there is no way to know.

    My guess for Sarmats would be rocket engine, thermal resistant materials and composites. But that is just a guess. We won't know correct answer for another several decades.

    You also need new missiles to replace Satans and carry new hypersonic glide vehicles.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:09 am

    I will tell you the monetary gain by these:

    1) Your nation is secured from being invaded and destroyed. Having heavy ICBM's will guarantee that it can bypass any current and future ABM system while Yars and Bulava may bypass at some point or another and others may get knocked out.
    2) The production of new materials creates plenty of jobs - more jobs, more money circulating the economy, more people buying goods. Don't build stuff, company goes out of business, scientists leave, various facilities working on the project by supplying parts that many of parts can be used in other goods (the materials, guidance systems, etc) have left the country or found other kind of employment, and less money circulating the economy.
    3) Why ask these questions all the time?
    4) People know that you cannot be messed with so they will continue to work with you, as per evident of the sanctions. So all in all, they cant bully you around like they are doing with Iran and North Korea.
    5) other shit.

    I can't believe we are even discussing this.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:46 am

    miketheterrible wrote:I will tell you the monetary gain by these:

    1) Your nation is secured from being invaded and destroyed.  Having heavy ICBM's will guarantee that it can bypass any current and future ABM system while Yars and Bulava may bypass at some point or another and others may get knocked out.
    2) The production of new materials creates plenty of jobs - more jobs, more money circulating the economy, more people buying goods.  Don't build stuff, company goes out of business, scientists leave, various facilities working on the project by supplying parts that many of parts can be used in other goods (the materials, guidance systems, etc) have left the country or found other kind of employment, and less money circulating the economy.
    3) Why ask these questions all the time?
    4) People know that you cannot be messed with so they will continue to work with you, as per evident of the sanctions.  So all in all, they cant bully you around like they are doing with Iran and North Korea.
    5) other shit.

    I can't believe we are even discussing this.
    1.North Korea doesn't have Sarmat, yet noone will invade it
    2. Nobody except the Russian government will buy the ICBMs, therefore, no profit. I wish there weren't treaties so that Russia could sell ICBMs to enemies of the western empire.
    3. It pisses me off when the Russian navy and Air force(PAK FA numbers, PAK DA, A-50, targeting pods, GLONASS, etc) and other vital industries(gas turbines) are underfunded to develop ICBMs.
    4. The EU doesn't want to cooperate with Russia over Ukraine and the US dared kill SAA soldiers. So Russia will continue to be bullied with sarmat or not. Or do you think westerners will stop making color revolutions and lift sanctions magically when sarmat comes into service?
    5. Like what? The only thing I can think of is space exploration technology, but russia by now has independently developed them from their ICBM programs.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:06 am

    You are aware of the fact the need for it? And the fact that North Korea keeps developing different type of missiles for same purpose as well.

    Also, once the missiles are purchased and operating, that will increase funding for other weapon systems as they will be able to divert procurement funds at that point.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:41 am

    miketheterrible wrote:You are aware of the fact the need for it? And the fact that North Korea keeps developing different type of missiles for same purpose as well.

    Also, once the missiles are purchased and operating, that will increase funding for other weapon systems as they will be able to divert procurement funds at that point.

    And we see that no matter what NK does western policy towards it doesn't change.

    By the time sarmat is in service completely it'll already be 2025.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:47 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:You are aware of the fact the need for it? And the fact that North Korea keeps developing different type of missiles for same purpose as well.

    Also, once the missiles are purchased and operating, that will increase funding for other weapon systems as they will be able to divert procurement funds at that point.

    And we see that no matter what NK does  western policy towards it doesn't change.

    By the time sarmat is in service completely it'll already be 2025.

    And? What is your fucking problem? You are not even making a point. You don't even have an argument. You are just trying to compare strategic weapons that prevent an enemy from attacking you, to fighter jets.

    Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on in this argument. You will just go in circles talking as if you know what you are saying. When you do not. More intelligent and capable people are involved in this and it gets done. Nuclear forces is what guarantees Russias sovereignty.
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:07 am

    US ABM systems feature very shitty missile technology decades behind the S-400. And even if it did destroy a few ICBMs, there is no gaurantee that most won't make it and even a single nuclear blast on US soil is unacceptable for American politicians, so the ABM is a waste of money that doesn't stop MAD. Even if you're gonna lecture me about the madness of neocons, they're inherently cowards and don't wanna lose credibility by causing a second nuclear crisis. That makes the Sarmat, kinda redundant.

    Politicians are dumb fucks that believe what Lockheed Martin tell them... when LM takes that trillion dollar cheque of course they will guarantee that their ABM system will work as promised. A few fake tests will prove it.

    It does not matter what the US thinks or does not think... Russian missiles have to penetrate ABM systems... shitty ineffective ones now, but in ten years time better systems that are more mature and capable.

    What else do you think the people making Sarmat should be doing? Creating fast food franchises for new Russian crap food... ie take normal food and add cheese and fat and salt and sugar...

    In short, the ABM is similar to the bomber gap and star wars, worthless money sinks that benefit Russia, but Russia shouldn't waste money also.

    Russia isn't spending enormous amounts of money because of the US ABM systems popping up everywhere... even without them Russia would still be replacing the SS-18 and SS-19 ICBMs that are the bulk of their ICBM force and largely made in the Ukraine.

    I ask again, how does Ballistic missile technology help Russia monetarily?

    It is not about making money... it is about remaining secure.

    1.North Korea doesn't have Sarmat, yet noone will invade it

    North Korea has been invaded by Japan and the UN and China in the last 70 odd years... and with a moron like trump in power who would rule out another attack?

    2. Nobody except the Russian government will buy the ICBMs, therefore, no profit. I wish there weren't treaties so that Russia could sell ICBMs to enemies of the western empire.

    Why the fuck would Russia want anyone else to have their ICBMs... are you stupid?

    The technology developed designing and making ICBMs is useful in a range of technology areas... precise fluid pumps, new heat resistant strong materials, etc etc etc.

    3. It pisses me off when the Russian navy and Air force(PAK FA numbers, PAK DA, A-50, targeting pods, GLONASS, etc) and other vital industries(gas turbines) are underfunded to develop ICBMs.

    It is ICBMs that keep the peace and prevent morons like Trump going too far (with regard to Russia).

    4. The EU doesn't want to cooperate with Russia over Ukraine and the US dared kill SAA soldiers. So Russia will continue to be bullied with sarmat or not. Or do you think westerners will stop making color revolutions and lift sanctions magically when sarmat comes into service?

    Hahahahahaha... you are funny... do you think PAK FA or PAK DA or Armata or ten new super carriers would make them start actually respecting Russia and stop them being ass holes.

    THEY ARE ASS HOLES... THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE... THAT WONT CHANGE... EVER.




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