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    Nelson Mandela

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    andalusia
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    Nelson Mandela

    Post  andalusia on Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:45 am

    Why do conservatives in America call Mandela a terrorist and communist? I know Mandela thanked Castro and other communist leaders for their anti-apartied support despite their governments oppressing their own citizens.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:40 am

    andalusia wrote:Why do conservatives in America call Mandela a terrorist and communist? I know Mandela thanked Castro and other communist leaders for their anti-apartied support despite their governments oppressing their own citizens.
    Because he destroyed their white utopia called apartheid.


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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:45 am

    andalusia wrote:Why do conservatives in America call Mandela a terrorist and communist? I know Mandela thanked Castro and other communist leaders for their anti-apartied support despite their governments oppressing their own citizens.
    The CIA played a crucial role in sending Mandela behind bars .

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/crocodile-tears-it-was-the-cia-that-helped-jail-nelson-mandela/5360582

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:23 am

    All that stuff about colonialism from the last few centuries got turned into being all about communism.

    The US could justify bombing countries in Asia with more bombs than were used in all of WWII by making it all about communism... which it really wasn't all about.

    In Cuba rich white people owned everything... Castro took it back for the people and reached out to the US for support. They turned him away and the Soviets jumped in and it became about communism.

    The people of Vietnam had been colonised... it was called indochina... first by the French and then during WWII the Japanese took over, and then the war ended and the French came back and the people of Vietnam wanted the colonial powers out... the former colonials got support from the west and the only remaining support was from china and the soviet union... it was not about communism until the west made it so.

    Vietnam and Korea were two countries torn in two and wanted reunification... if the west had not supported the other sides they would have been crushed fairly quickly and the sides we now see as communist would not have needed all that help and support and might have become moderate countries... or might have been even worse... who knows.

    The point is that the whites of South Africa justified their rule by claiming that the Soviets were supporting the ANC and therefore it was not about white and black it was about (white) western democracy and black communism... it was enough to get them all sorts of support... it is not a coincidence that the R4 south african assault rifle looks a lot like a Galil...

    I know Mandela thanked Castro and other communist leaders for their anti-apartied support despite their governments oppressing their own citizens.
    I think it is funny the west talking about oppression... it is their main line of trade. The thing that has hurt the Cuban people the most over the last half century is not communism... it is the economic blockade from the US. A similar structure was used against the Soviets and Iranians and North Koreans and is still felt today in all of those countries... who cares about a vote every 4-8 years if the economy is going well?

    Mandela was no saint, but when history gave him the opportunity to punnish all the white people in South Africa for a century of oppression he forgave them and acted like good christian is supposed to... you know... do unto others, turn the other cheek, and all that.

    You have to respect him for that alone.



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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  TR1 on Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:45 am

    Conservatives in America are very liberal (no pun intended) in their accusations of people being socialists or communists.

    EDIT: spelling fail


    Last edited by TR1 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:19 pm

    Mandela was on the US terror list up until 2008 Very Happy Very Happy  (I dont know how many people in the World are not on US terror list) 

    Mandela, the man once branded a 'terrorist' by the US

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:36 pm

    Viktor wrote:Mandela was on the US terror list up until 2008 Very Happy Very Happy  (I dont know how many people in the World are not on US terror list) 
    Including her...



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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:45 pm

    For the US , anyone who is not with them socially , racially etc is a terrorist .

    This year when a woman of Indian origin was crowned Miss America , she received a few thousand racist Tweets .

    750 of these tweets called her a terrorist.

    Needless , to say it takes a bigot to believe a woman in a two piece bikini is a terrorist.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:48 pm

    Sujoy wrote:For the US , anyone who is not with them socially , racially etc is a terrorist .

    This year when a woman of Indian origin was crowned Miss America , she received a few thousand racist Tweets .

    750 of these tweets called her a terrorist.

    Needless , to say it takes a bigot to believe a woman in a two piece bikini is a terrorist.
    'Murica is raised to be ignorant and at the same time arrogant, an empty kettle makes the most noise.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:51 am

    Werewolf wrote:'Murica is raised to be ignorant and at the same time arrogant, an empty kettle makes the most noise.
    The problem starts Werewolf when America starts imposing their decisions , which is the outcome of ignorance and arrogance on the rest of the world . This very feeling of an entitlement . Putin spoke against it , I hope other world leaders do as well .

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:43 am

    Needless , to say it takes a bigot to believe a woman in a two piece bikini is a terrorist.

    Could be a tactic... I remember reading about a group of bank robbers that were basically young women who wore bikini bottoms, but no tops.

    Apparantly they didn't wear masks but none of the eyewitnesses could remember their faces...  Embarassed  It is true I tell ya...


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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  BTRfan on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:09 pm

    andalusia wrote:Why do conservatives in America call Mandela a terrorist and communist? I know Mandela thanked Castro and other communist leaders for their anti-apartied support despite their governments oppressing their own citizens.


    Because Mandela's Umkhonto we Sizwe [MK] planted bombs in public places, they killed hundreds of white folks, they also killed tens of thousands of blacks in the 1970s and 1980s from rival tribes [mostly the Zulu] and they even coined the term "necklacing" to describe how they would kill somebody by placing tires around them and lighting them on fire.

    When Mandela was originally on trial [transcripts and audio are available] he openly admitted that he planned sabotage and terrorism and said that his goal was to start a revolution. Mandela was a lawyer who knew court procedure and knew the ramifications of his admissions in open court, he was not some simpleton tribal goaded into making damaging admissions.


    In the early 1980s South African President Botha offered to pardon Mandela and release him from prison if Mandela would simply renounce violence as a method to achieve political change, Mandela refused and remained in prison.

    Amnesty International refused to classify Mandela as a prisoner of conscience because, as they pointed out, he had engaged in bombings, mass violence, and he repeatedly called for violence and refused to renounce violence.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  BTRfan on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:16 pm

    Is Shamil Basayev viewed as a hero in Russia?

    He might be a hero to Chechens but he's no hero to Russians. Why should he be? What did he do for Russians?


    I don't fault Xhosa kaffirs for idolizing Mandela, he advanced their agenda and their cause. It just so happens that their agenda and their cause is not my agenda, nor my cause.

    It is a zero sum game, I root for MY team, I don't root for the other team.

    Mandela was part of the other team. I expect the OTHER team to like him, what enrages me is when people who are supposed to be on my team are cheering for Mandela.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:19 pm

    Should people on your team root for the Apartheid regime?

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  BTRfan on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:23 pm

    TR1 wrote:Should people on your team root for the Apartheid regime?


    Anybody on my team who wants to hand over political, social, and economic power to the other team is a traitor.


    If Putin held a speech and said that he was going to stand down and invite Chechen rebel leaders into the Kremlin, would you see him as a traitor or a visionary blazing a path for the future?


    De Klerk helped put South Africa on the road that can only end with South Africa becoming the next Zimbabwe, it is simply taking longer because South Africa is 10% White with 5 million Whites while Zimbabwe was never more than 2% White with at most 250,000 Whites.

    South Africa will eventually be as desolate as the heart of darkest Africa, resembling the interior of the Congo.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:33 pm

    Uh, Putin BOUGHT the Chechen rebels and sends them quite a bit of money to keep em happy.
    Given the situation it was actually a somewhat realistic decision.

    You keep avoiding the fact that the Apartheid regime was a disgusting system of oppression.
    Not to mention how exactly are they on "your side" as an American? There isn't some worldwide alliance of white vs black people you know.

    The racist undertones of any Mandela critics are sooo obvious.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  BTRfan on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:13 pm

    TR1 wrote:Uh, Putin BOUGHT the Chechen rebels and sends them quite a bit of money to keep em happy.
    Given the situation it was actually a somewhat realistic decision.

    You keep avoiding the fact that the Apartheid regime was a disgusting system of oppression.
    Not to mention how exactly are they on "your side" as an American? There isn't some worldwide alliance of white vs black people you know.

    The racist undertones of any Mandela critics are sooo obvious.


    I really like how you failed to address the points about Amnesty International refusing to classify him as a prisoner of conscience, his own admissions at his trial, and the fact that he had many blacks killed with necklacing.



    If Apartheid was so terrible then why did TWENTY MILLION black Africans from other nations move to South Africa in the 1970s and 1980s. They went there illegally because South Africa run by Whites was infinitely better than Angola, Mozambique, the Congo, etc...

    A full FIFTY PERCENT of all blacks in South Africa today moved there illegally in the 1970s and 1980s.


    Folks vote with their feet. Anywhere a White man plants his flag and sets up shop, dark races are soon to follow because they want to live in a nation with paved roads, electricity, and running water.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:56 pm

    Yeah that migration had nothing to do with the wars tearing those countries apart I am sure.

    Wars that, you know, had a hell of a lot to do with colonial divisions of Africa, and were often supported/fueled/prolonged by the USSR, the US, France, and hell sometimes South Africa.

    Wooo White People!

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  BTRfan on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:59 pm

    TR1 wrote:Yeah that migration had nothing to do with the wars tearing those countries apart I am sure.

    Wars that, you know, had a hell of a lot to do with colonial divisions of Africa, and were often supported/fueled/prolonged by the USSR, the US, France, and hell sometimes South Africa.

    Wooo White People!


    Blacks came to power in the former Belgian Congo, result, massive civil war and mass flight of refugees...


    The same thing in Angola, Mozambique, etc...


    Claiming that the colonial divisions of Africa resulted in misery is an argument AGAINST diversity. If 200 different black tribes in the Congo cannot get along and need to have separate borders that the tribes define themselves, then there is no hope for 30+ different ethnic/lingual groups in Europe to get along with Asians, Arabs, and 200+ different African tribes thrown into the mix.


    If the 200+ tribes in the Congo cannot get along maybe they just need diversity lessons?

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:03 am

    TR1 wrote:Yeah that migration had nothing to do with the wars tearing those countries apart I am sure.

    Wars that, you know, had a hell of a lot to do with colonial divisions of Africa, and were often supported/fueled/prolonged by the USSR, the US, France, and hell sometimes South Africa.

    Wooo White People!

    The Soviets (and US) were supporting the independence movements against their colonial European owners in the 50s and 60s

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:15 am

    And after supported and fueled civil wars against right (or left) wing opposition or ruling parties, depending on the conflict.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  BTRfan on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:04 pm

    TR1 wrote:And after supported and fueled civil wars against right (or left) wing opposition or ruling parties, depending on the conflict.


    It was all just rhetoric on the part of the blacks to get support from the West or the East. Almost all of the ruling parties, opposition parties, paramilitary groups, rebel organizations, etc, were organized strictly along tribal/ethnic lines. The political war in Angola might be thought of more as an ethnic war.


    The locals realized that since some already had Soviet backing, they would need to use Western style rhetoric to appeal to America because their adversaries had already cornered the market on Eastern backing.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:54 pm

    There is one country in which blacks of different tribes are living along just fine - it's Botswana. The country has a sound 5-6% annual economic growth rate, since achieving independence in 1960 there have never been any coups, civil wars or ethnic cleansings, and elections are held regularly and would be considered fair even in Europe.
    GarryB wrote:In Cuba rich white people owned everything... Castro took it back for the people and reached out to the US for support. They turned him away and the Soviets jumped in and it became about communism.
    Sorry Garry... while you have extensive military knowledge, in terms of history/politics you often write pure BS.

    That wealth stolen by Castro wasn't given to any people. It was nationalized which means it belonged to the state, not to any "people". Wealth of the people is a sum of individual wealths belonging to individual members of the society. If officially everything belongs "to the people" but individually every member of that "people" has no wealth and no means of getting richer - then it's no justice at all but a totalitarian society.

    The main difference between normal countries and communist ones is that in a normal (= free market) country every person who has some brains and works diligently can climb up the social ladder. There are millions of cases in western (USA, EU) countries and recently industrialized ones (South Korea, Taiwan, China) of people who were born in poverty but became rich. Some became doctors, lawyers or engineers, others founded their own companies and became millionaires or even billionaires. Communist countries are different - no one no matter how smart or hard working he/she is, can't breach a certain threshold - the best doctors earn just a little more than janitors working in the same hospital. And people can only dream about creating their own companies.
    GarryB wrote:I think it is funny the west talking about oppression... it is their main line of trade. The thing that has hurt the Cuban people the most over the last half century is not communism... it is the economic blockade from the US. A similar structure was used against the Soviets and Iranians and North Koreans and is still felt today in all of those countries... who cares about a vote every 4-8 years if the economy is going well?
    Embargoes always work in both sides - US embargo on Cuba or Iran hurts the US as much as it hurts Iran and Cuba.

    BThe reason why communism fell was it's own shear economic inefficiency, not some wicked plot of western imperialists.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:36 pm

    If smart people couldn't achive anything and live normally in the USSR I wonder why brilliant people like Mikoyan, the inventors of lazer eye surgery, sukhoi, etc. continue to live well there and outperform the "innovative" west any a huge amount of areas.

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    Re: Nelson Mandela

    Post  BTRfan on Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:21 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:There is one country in which blacks of different tribes are living along just fine - it's Botswana. The country has a sound 5-6% annual economic growth rate, since achieving independence in 1960 there have never been any coups, civil wars or ethnic cleansings, and elections are held regularly and would be considered fair even in Europe.
    GarryB wrote:In Cuba rich white people owned everything... Castro took it back for the people and reached out to the US for support. They turned him away and the Soviets jumped in and it became about communism.
    Sorry Garry... while you have extensive military knowledge, in terms of history/politics you often write pure BS.

    That wealth stolen by Castro wasn't given to any people. It was nationalized which means it belonged to the state, not to any "people". Wealth of the people is a sum of individual wealths belonging to individual members of the society. If officially everything belongs "to the people" but individually every member of that "people" has no wealth and no means of getting richer - then it's no justice at all but a totalitarian society.

    The main difference between normal countries and communist ones is that in a normal (= free market) country every person who has some brains and works diligently can climb up the social ladder. There are millions of cases in western (USA, EU) countries and recently industrialized ones (South Korea, Taiwan, China) of people who were born in poverty but became rich. Some became doctors, lawyers or engineers, others founded their own companies and became millionaires or even billionaires. Communist countries are different - no one no matter how smart or hard working he/she is, can't breach a certain threshold - the best doctors earn just a little more than janitors working in the same hospital. And people can only dream about creating their own companies.
    GarryB wrote:I think it is funny the west talking about oppression... it is their main line of trade. The thing that has hurt the Cuban people the most over the last half century is not communism... it is the economic blockade from the US. A similar structure was used against the Soviets and Iranians and North Koreans and is still felt today in all of those countries... who cares about a vote every 4-8 years if the economy is going well?
    Embargoes always work in both sides - US embargo on Cuba or Iran hurts the US as much as it hurts Iran and Cuba.

    BThe reason why communism fell was it's own shear economic inefficiency, not some wicked plot of western imperialists.


    Yeah Botswana seems to be okay, but it has major social issues with about 60-70% of adults living with HIV. It has the highest or at least one of the highest HIV/AIDs infection rates in the world.

    Economically, politically, and in regards to rule of law, Botswana seems to have kept the best of the British tradition while avoiding the issues that plagued the other former colonies.

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