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    South Stream pipeline: News

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    zino
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    South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  zino on Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:31 pm

    http://www.b92.net/eng/news/business-article.php
    http://www.novinite.com/articles/156144/South+Stream+Bilateral+Deals+Breach+EU+Law%2C+Commission+Says

    Very alarming news about the future of that pipeline.

    My English level is too poor to attempt a serious discussion about it.
    The bulgarian site published the most complete version of the Commission opinion. They call into question the very nature of Gazprom and consequently his/her ability to operate in the EU market (third energy package in the most truculent form).
    Another disturbing result will be the inability for the little countries of south-east Europe to gain money from the pipeline.

    This and the ukrainian mess. The definitive proof that the strategic partnership between Russia and EU, started in the Schroeder era, is gone. From now the gas war will become the gas "nuclear" war. Very sad indeed. So much potential thrown away. And dangerous, for Russia's finances and for the european costumers.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:30 am

    If Russia could no longer pipe gas to europe it would be very bad for Russia and for europe.

    Europe would find other sources over time, but would have to pay a lot more for the same thing they already get now.

    Russia would be badly hit, but then again if they don't sell it to Europe it can sell it to other countries, or use it itself.

    Liquifying it would allow it to be shipped world wide to any market needed including africa and central and south america and asia.


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:26 pm

    The reason for that is EU 3rd energy package.

    It states, that gas (or any energy source) production, transportation, and distribution cannot be owned by the same companies.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:18 am

    The National government pulled the same crap here... if you ask me if a company spends the money creating infrastructure then they fricken own it and no government should be allowed to take it off them for any silly "competition" rules.


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  zg18 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:20 pm

    zino wrote:This and the ukrainian mess. The definitive proof that the strategic partnership between Russia and EU, started in the Schroeder era, is gone. From now the gas war will become the gas "nuclear" war. Very sad indeed. So much potential thrown away. And dangerous, for Russia's finances and for the european costumers.
    Europe will be more badly hit medium to long term , to be precise , European consumers because they will pay a lot more for the gas. Russia has huge cushion in form of China , not to mention that Caspian energy for Europe goes through halls of Kremlin.

    Because of that , it`s more of an attempt to show some teeth. Reality is , Russians have more cards while Europe should not use it`s most strongest card , a European market itself for dubious benefits. And also having 145 million nation as an enemy next door is not wise politics.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:The National government pulled the same crap here... if you ask me if a company spends the money creating infrastructure then they fricken own it and no government should be allowed to take it off them for any silly "competition" rules.

    Oh, I see. But as far as I know, this isn't, really, a nationalisation. The pipelines are actually allowed to be sold, so it's not really like there's only a loss for the company.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:39 am

    Oh, I see. But as far as I know, this isn't, really, a nationalisation. The pipelines are actually allowed to be sold, so it's not really like there's only a loss for the company.

    And what happens when the company that buys the pipes is only interested in maximum profit and they sell off components of the business to make some quick cash and then change the business model from preventative maintainence to ambulance at the bottom of the cliff maintainence... ie instead of replacing old sections of the pipe they wait for a leak or failure before they do anything?

    At the end of the day if a pipe is closed down for a day it is the Russian gas companies that will get the blame for not delivering their product on time.

    If you need proof it was the Russian gas companies that got the blame when the Ukraine was stealing gas meant for europe...

    They are spending enormous amounts of money on new pipelines to ensure that can't happen again and now europe wants to take these new pipelines away from them?

    I'd tell them to go fk themselves and cut the gas off completely right in the middle of winter.


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  SOC on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:34 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:The reason for that is EU 3rd energy package.

    It states, that gas (or any energy source) production, transportation, and distribution cannot be owned by the same companies.

    Why does that matter to Russia, who's not an EU member? Or is that part of the gas agreement meaning Russia is supposed to cooperate?

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:58 pm

    SOC wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:The reason for that is EU 3rd energy package.

    It states, that gas (or any energy source) production, transportation, and distribution cannot be owned by the same companies.

    Why does that matter to Russia, who's not an EU member?  Or is that part of the gas agreement meaning Russia is supposed to cooperate?

    Well, I know about that law only from the press, so forgive my possible ignorance, but I think this law applies to gas transportation systems on ES soil. So, for example, Gazprom couldn't own any, let's say, Bulgarian, pipelines, but they could be shareholders.

    To GarryB:

    Yes, it's possible that new company would be really bad at maintaining pipelines. But in this case, pipelines could be owned by state-run companies, with governmental supervision. That would kinda solve the problem you mentioned, wouldn't it?

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:09 am

    Yes, it's possible that new company would be really bad at maintaining pipelines. But in this case, pipelines could be owned by state-run companies, with governmental supervision. That would kinda solve the problem you mentioned, wouldn't it?

    Which state? Why should the states own the pipelines on their territory... isn't that communism? Or at least Socialism?

    When the Cuban government took control of foreign owned assets in Cuba the US imposed sanctions... why should Russian energy companies sell their pipeline assets to the governments of the countries they pass through?

    What do european governments know about maintaining pipelines?

    What if the pipeline leads to an unfriendly country... it would be tempting to develop a fault in the line and have to close it down for 6 months... btw something the Soviets and Russians have never done to western european countries that paid their bills.


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Yes, it's possible that new company would be really bad at maintaining pipelines. But in this case, pipelines could be owned by state-run companies, with governmental supervision. That would kinda solve the problem you mentioned, wouldn't it?

    Which state? Why should the states own the pipelines on their territory... isn't that communism? Or at least Socialism?

    When the Cuban government took control of foreign owned assets in Cuba the US imposed sanctions... why should Russian energy companies sell their pipeline assets to the governments of the countries they pass through?

    What do european governments know about maintaining pipelines?

    What if the pipeline leads to an unfriendly country... it would be tempting to develop a fault in the line and have to close it down for 6 months... btw something the Soviets and Russians have never done to western european countries that paid their bills.



    You know, you (or Russia) may not like this law, but it's already in force in all EU countries. And laws must be obeyed. So, deal with it  russia 

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:38 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Yes, it's possible that new company would be really bad at maintaining pipelines. But in this case, pipelines could be owned by state-run companies, with governmental supervision. That would kinda solve the problem you mentioned, wouldn't it?

    Which state? Why should the states own the pipelines on their territory... isn't that communism? Or at least Socialism?

    When the Cuban government took control of foreign owned assets in Cuba the US imposed sanctions... why should Russian energy companies sell their pipeline assets to the governments of the countries they pass through?

    What do european governments know about maintaining pipelines?

    What if the pipeline leads to an unfriendly country... it would be tempting to develop a fault in the line and have to close it down for 6 months... btw something the Soviets and Russians have never done to western european countries that paid their bills.



    You know, you (or Russia) may not like this law, but it's already in force in all EU countries. And laws must be obeyed. So, deal with it  russia 

    When did Russia become an EU country??  Suspect 

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:51 am

    You know, you (or Russia) may not like this law, but it's already in force in all EU countries. And laws must be obeyed. So, deal with it

    Piping the gas is the cheapest option but the Russians can easily close down the pipelines and liquify the gas and sell it as LNG... which sells at a rather higher profit margin. The difference for Europe is that it is more expensive... of course once you start putting it on ships for delivery... the cost of delivering it to Europe is not that much different from delivering it to many parts of the world via ship so why send it to Europe when they could send it to Africa or Asia or lots of other places?

    the pipes are used because it is a cheap and efficient way of delivering gas... that benefits Russia and also Europe.

    If Europe wants to separate Russian companies from their assets in Europe there are plenty of alternatives that actually make more money for those Russian companies... the difference is that it just costs the European consumer more. Adding new pipe owners who might want to create more income and charge more for using the pipes once they fully own them do you think the Russian gas company will absorb the cost or do you think that extra cost will be reflected in the cost to the consumer?

    Either way of course the Russian company will get the blame for the price increases... no one ever blames the stupid new rules that added all those middle men for no sensible reason.

    Market forces only work when there is actually some real competition. A myth.


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:04 pm

    To Alfa:
    It didn't.



    GarryB wrote:
    You know, you (or Russia) may not like this law, but it's already in force in all EU countries. And laws must be obeyed. So, deal with it

    Piping the gas is the cheapest option but the Russians can easily close down the pipelines and liquify the gas and sell it as LNG... which sells at a rather higher profit margin. The difference for Europe is that it is more expensive... of course once you start putting it on ships for delivery... the cost of delivering it to Europe is not that much different from delivering it to many parts of the world via ship so why send it to Europe when they could send it to Africa or Asia or lots of other places?

    the pipes are used because it is a cheap and efficient way of delivering gas... that benefits Russia and also Europe.

    If Europe wants to separate Russian companies from their assets in Europe there are plenty of alternatives that actually make more money for those Russian companies... the difference is that it just costs the European consumer more. Adding new pipe owners who might want to create more income and charge more for using the pipes once they fully own them do you think the Russian gas company will absorb the cost or do you think that extra cost will be reflected in the cost to the consumer?

    Either way of course the Russian company will get the blame for the price increases... no one ever blames the stupid new rules that added all those middle men for no sensible reason.

    Market forces only work when there is actually some real competition.  A myth.



    Building LNG terminals in Russia would be a VERY good decision, mainly because it would allow other Russian gas producers (Novatek and Rosneft?) much better competing environment.

    And you're SOO wrong about any percieved blamings. No sensible person in Europe (I'm, of course, not counting imbeciles) would blame Russia for gas price increases. If anything, Russia should just blame herself for actually creating those middlemen in the first place (by feeding UA and Belarus with cheap gas for SO long, that they actually become dependant on it). Some EU official (don't remember, which) had said: "If those two countries had paid market prices from the beggining, there would be no grounds for gas wars at all".


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:12 pm

    zg18 wrote:

    Because of that , it`s more of an attempt to show some teeth. Reality is , Russians have more cards while Europe should not use it`s most strongest card , a European market itself for dubious benefits. And also having 145 million nation as an enemy next door is not wise politics.

    That is counting the Chinese economy will continue as it has.  Banks that have been bullish on China are warning of a debt crisis next year.  All of the wreckless spending they have made since 2008 to prop up the economy must be reconciled at some point.  They continue to sweep it under the rug but if they let defaults happen, that means no government guarantee and a loss of confidence that will see capital flight.  I do not want us to put many eggs in the Chinese basket.  


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:32 pm

    And you're SOO wrong about any percieved blamings. No sensible person in Europe (I'm, of course, not counting imbeciles) would blame Russia for gas price increases.

    I could not imagine a story about price increases for gas in Europe being read on the BBC that says anything nice about Russia or blaming anyone or anything but those evil unfeeling Russians.

    I can picture the story now... some single mother with ten kids in a flat in London in the middle of winter can't afford to heat her home AND feed her kids so they will be cold all winter and therefore be more vulnerable to colds and flu and it will be all because of those greedy Russians putting up the prices AGAIN.

    What has sensible to do with western media?

    The west has a financial crisis created by the banks lending money to people who clearly could not pay back those loans if house prices stopped climbing, and the solution is the bail out the banks that created the problem in the first place... Rolling Eyes 

    Too big to fail my A$$.

    "If those two countries had paid market prices from the beggining, there would be no grounds for gas wars at all".

    And the alternatives in energy terms would likely have been coal or wood... both of which would have greatly increase levels of pollution in both regions.

    Perhaps if Russia triples the price of gas to Europe then Europe wont be so dependent on Russian gas?  Twisted Evil 


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:42 am

    To GarryB:
    I was talking more about actual events, rather than PR campaigns. With media you can rewrite history, if you want (and have enough greenies for that).



    "And the alternatives in energy terms would likely have been coal or wood... both of which would have greatly increase levels of pollution in both regions."

    Well, if the other option is to freeze to death, a pollution is a trivial issue, don't you think?




    "Perhaps if Russia triples the price of gas to Europe then Europe wont be so dependent on Russian gas?"

    In this capitalist world, Russia has EVERY right to sell their products for whatever price they want (or don't sell at all), and their customers have just the same right to not buy their products, if they want.
    But the trouble is, in some cases Gazprom (and actually, some other European gas companies, as well) monopolized gas pipeline systems of some countries, so they can charge whatever price they want, and the respectable country is FORCED to buy those gas. That's just plain wrong. And 3rd energy package is an attempt to rectify this injustice.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:16 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    In this capitalist world, Russia has EVERY right to sell their products for whatever price they want (or don't sell at all), and their customers have just the same right to not buy their products, if they want.
    But the trouble is, in some cases Gazprom (and actually, some other European gas companies, as well) monopolized gas pipeline systems of some countries, so they can charge whatever price they want, and the respectable country is FORCED to buy those gas. That's just plain wrong. And 3rd energy package is an attempt to rectify this injustice.
    what injustice... this is capitalism, you dont slash profits, you maximize them and it just so happens that monopoly gives the max profit.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:03 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    In this capitalist world, Russia has EVERY right to sell their products for whatever price they want (or don't sell at all), and their customers have just the same right to not buy their products, if they want.
    But the trouble is, in some cases Gazprom (and actually, some other European gas companies, as well) monopolized gas pipeline systems of some countries, so they can charge whatever price they want, and the respectable country is FORCED to buy those gas. That's just plain wrong. And 3rd energy package is an attempt to rectify this injustice.
    what injustice... this is capitalism, you dont slash profits, you maximize them and it just so happens that monopoly gives the max profit.


    Dude, most countries left "pure" capitalism in 19th century  Rolling Eyes  . And when poorer families become unable to pay their gas bills, believe me, there's something not right.

    And besides, your perception about profits is wrong. A successful company will ALWAYS prefer increasing a quality of their product over increased profits.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:10 am

    Well, if the other option is to freeze to death, a pollution is a trivial issue, don't you think?

    Pollution kills and effects health too.

    But the trouble is, in some cases Gazprom (and actually, some other European gas companies, as well) monopolized gas pipeline systems of some countries, so they can charge whatever price they want, and the respectable country is FORCED to buy those gas.

    They built or bought the pipelines... if they are charging too much then why don't other companies spend a small fortune and build their own pipelines?

    The facts are that delivering energy is not cheap and to enter such a market is not easy without government support.

    You might claim foul that the Russians currently own the pipelines they built but can you not see it is also unfair to force them to sell something they built to deliver their products to their consumers.

    As you say the consumers can vote with their money and buy LNG from many other sources... the main reason they wouldn't is because it is more expensive.

    Democracy has the same problem... Bush jnr might have been incompetent but he was the devil they knew and there was no alternative that was obviously better so he got a second term... and you could say the same about Obama.

    If the EU wants to buy the pipelines then they need to make an offer the Russian gas companies could not refuse. Instead they change the rules to make them criminals for delivering their product in the cheapest most efficient way!

    And 3rd energy package is an attempt to rectify this injustice.

    What injustice? If the Russian supplied gas was too expensive then let them use alternatives... the EU is the centre of European civilisation... surely there is plenty of healthy competition amongst rival companies for the job?

    Or is the model just BS?

    And when poorer families become unable to pay their gas bills, believe me, there's something not right.

    Maybe the EU is at fault for relying all these years on cheap gas and not investing in Solar or nuclear or wind or many other forms of power generation.

    With all the manure in Brussels perhaps they should be considering methane?

    And besides, your perception about profits is wrong. A successful company will ALWAYS prefer increasing a quality of their product over increased profits.

    Hahaha... and then it will get gobbled up by a company with higher profits that can afford to buy them out.  Rolling Eyes 

    Companies don't have morals any more than governments do.


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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:57 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    collegeboy16 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    In this capitalist world, Russia has EVERY right to sell their products for whatever price they want (or don't sell at all), and their customers have just the same right to not buy their products, if they want.
    But the trouble is, in some cases Gazprom (and actually, some other European gas companies, as well) monopolized gas pipeline systems of some countries, so they can charge whatever price they want, and the respectable country is FORCED to buy those gas. That's just plain wrong. And 3rd energy package is an attempt to rectify this injustice.
    what injustice... this is capitalism, you dont slash profits, you maximize them and it just so happens that monopoly gives the max profit.


    Dude, most countries left "pure" capitalism in 19th century  Rolling Eyes  . And when poorer families become unable to pay their gas bills, believe me, there's something not right.

    And besides, your perception about profits is wrong. A successful company will ALWAYS prefer increasing a quality of their product over increased profits.

    There are soooo many cases where that is not true.
    Companies generally only increase quality when they HAVE to, to increase or keep their profits.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:36 pm

    You get me wrong. I didn't deny, that you can have fantastic profits via connections alone. But you won't have that very long. Look at Gazprom. Their share in Russia's gas market is already being taken away little by little by other gas companies, like novatek.

    To TR1:
    "There are soooo many cases where that is not true.
    Companies generally only increase quality when they HAVE to, to increase or keep their profits."

    Yes, and companies with such attitudes quickly go bankrupt, once they loose their monopoly or "roof".





    To GarryB:
    "Hahaha... and then it will get gobbled up by a company with higher profits that can afford to buy them out."

    You do realize that company MAY NOT want to sell out?




    "What injustice? If the Russian supplied gas was too expensive then let them use alternatives... the EU is the centre of European civilisation... surely there is plenty of healthy competition amongst rival companies for the job?"

    In my country, there currently isn't any alternatives. You either buy from gazprom (for whatever price they wish), or freeze to death. You think, this is right?

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  Regular on Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:48 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    And besides, your perception about profits is wrong. A successful company will ALWAYS prefer increasing a quality of their product over increased profits.
    That's rather thing of the past. Clearly not the case for Apple or even BMW :)Even so called status items seen better days. Cheap production cost, transfer of production lines to employ cheap labour became standard practice. And quality of product is not as much important to achieve profit and good customer reception is more than that.

    How good are new cars? I drive new car that causes me headache and has design flaws left specially to make the car to last less on the road. I can't explain it other way. And it's pretty much written rule on BMW forums amongst mechanics. To change light bulb I have to go to service, tyres pressure warnings going mad - stuff like that makes me want to travel back in good old 2003 when I could do DIY to my car and it lasted for ages, leather interior too wasn't made of some sort ballsack they do it now.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  Regular on Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:30 am

    My country pays shipload of money to get gas from Russia. Pro Russian PM went to Moscow for a nice chat and got back with bloody nose and pants full of shyte. After that were talks of starting "repairs" on Russian channels, like railway or some pipes, but this cunning plan was shunned even by most ant Russian people. But it made good rhetoric for internal consumption. What is more funny that Us company who was here to extract shale gas said dosvidaniya biatches. Atomic power plant is stuck to like we don't need it. Such indecisive leftist politicians and uptight right wingers, lack of grand strategy and political continuity leaves us where we are. Makes me think that the best reform would be in a form of couple frag grenades nabbed inside parliament.

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    Re: South Stream pipeline: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:46 am

    You do realize that company MAY NOT want to sell out?

    Once someone has controlling shares, they control the company.

    Make the owner an offer, while at the same time drop the prices to steal customers and they can sell now while their company has some value or later for a lot less... that is how the cocacola company worked... it bought up all the bottling plants around the world...

    In my country, there currently isn't any alternatives. You either buy from gazprom (for whatever price they wish), or freeze to death. You think, this is right?

    The only way to heat your house is gas? You clearly need to develop alternatives like electric or a log burner. A guy in NZ has developed a wood pellet burner that uses woodchip waste wood to fuel it. Unlike a wood burner it controls the oxygen in the burning process and is much more efficient and the fuel is cheap and a by product from sawmills.

    Or is it Gazproms fault the people of your country got lazy and just relied on cheap power sources...



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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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