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    Russia - Algeria military contracts

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    Militarov

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    Algerian Su-34's

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:26 pm

    Berkut wrote:I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:53 pm

    I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Written black on white:

    "The last eight years there were such talks with this country (Algeria), but on their part there were no any steps. And recently in the "Rosoboronexport" we recieved the official application from Algeria to supply our SU32 aircraft."

    Reliable local sources have confirmed several times that the AAF was about to buy Su32/34, yet they only set an official request now. I highly suspect that the modernisation of our Su24 froze the buying process for a while. It looks like they finally want to go through this contract now.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

    Why ?
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    George1

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:01 pm

    Not rumors anymore. The Su-34 is reported to be officially commissioned in Algeria in 2016

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1665131.html


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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:28 pm

    Atakor wrote:
    I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Written black on white:

    "The last eight years there were such talks with this country (Algeria), but on their part there were no any steps. And recently in the "Rosoboronexport" we recieved the official application from Algeria to supply our SU32 aircraft."

    Reliable local sources have confirmed several times that the AAF was about to buy Su32/34, yet they only set an official request now. I highly suspect that the modernisation of our Su24 froze the buying process for a while. It looks like they finally want to go through this contract now.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

    Why ?

    I expected Algeria to stick with SU30xx multirole platform for its airforce.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:30 pm

    George1 wrote:Not rumors anymore. The Su-34 is reported to be officially commissioned in Algeria in 2016

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1665131.html

    Original source:

    " The Algerian Air Force has ordered 12 Sukhoi (Su-34) 'Fullback' fighter bombers from Russian aircraft manufacturer Novosibirsk Aircraft Production Association to replace an aged fleet of Soviet-era MiG-25s, which are long over-due for retirement from service, as part of an ongoing force modernization program.

    In an interview published by Russian-language newspaper Vedomosti on New Year's Day, Novosibirsk Aircraft Production Association Director General Chkalov Sergei Smirnov announced that Algeria has finally ordered the Su-34 after nearly eight years of continuous negotiations. Although he did not give any further details on the sale, Smirnov said the Algerian Air Force is also negotiating for the long-term purchase of upgraded versions of the company's (Sukhoi) Su-24 "Fencer," which would be in line with the changing needs of Algeria's ongoing force re-orientation and modernization project.

    The Su-34 order is believed to be a component of the $7.5 billion Algerian-Russian arms deal signed in March 2006 for the supply of anti-missile systems, aviation, sea and land-ward defense equipment and technologies. Late last year, top Russian military expert Igor Korotchenko told RIA Novostin that the deployment of the Su-34 on combat duty in Syria will help potential buyers in Africa, Eastern Europe and the Middle East to evaluate its performance and decide on whether to acquire it or not.

    "Several countries in Africa, including Uganda and Nigeria, which [are] waging a war against Boko Haram, could buy the Su-34. Such top of the range fighter bomber aircraft could also strengthen Ethiopia's Air Force, which still operates a large fleet of aging Su-27 fighters," Korotchenko said. The Su-34 has also attracted the interest of Iraq, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan while Kazakhstan already operates a squadron recently acquired from Russia. Powered by a two Saturn AL-31F turbo-fan engines, the Su-34 is a fourth generation fighter bomber created from the frame of its (Sukhoi) Su-27 predecessor.

    It has a non-stop operating range of 4 000 kilometers and a maximum speed of up to 2,200 kilometers per hour. Its principal armaments include a 30-mm GSh-301 canon, and various surface to air-to-air missiles, cruise missiles, air-to-surface missiles, anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles in addition to guided and free-fall bombs."


    Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2016/01/05/algeria-orders-12-su-34-fullback-fighter-bombers-russia/78319912/

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:32 pm

    congratulations to Algeria!

    I hope our lot do indeed buy something soon... Sad

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:29 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Written black on white:

    "The last eight years there were such talks with this country (Algeria), but on their part there were no any steps. And recently in the "Rosoboronexport" we recieved the official application from Algeria to supply our SU32 aircraft."

    Reliable local sources have confirmed several times that the AAF was about to buy Su32/34, yet they only set an official request now. I highly suspect that the modernisation of our Su24 froze the buying process for a while. It looks like they finally want to go through this contract now.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

    Why ?

    I expected Algeria to stick with SU30xx multirole platform for its airforce.

    Nope, each aircraft due to be withdrawn will have its own successor. The Su34 will replace the Su24, the Mig35 will replace the Mig29 and so on...
    By the way, the primary mission of our Su30 is aerial defence and aerial domination, even though they do COIN/CAS missions from time to time, but only to fill the gap.
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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:42 am

    3x Corvettes 20380 for Algeria can be built in Komsomolsk-on-Amur?

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/602369.html


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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:03 am

    Atakor wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Written black on white:

    "The last eight years there were such talks with this country (Algeria), but on their part there were no any steps. And recently in the "Rosoboronexport" we recieved the official application from Algeria to supply our SU32 aircraft."

    Reliable local sources have confirmed several times that the AAF was about to buy Su32/34, yet they only set an official request now. I highly suspect that the modernisation of our Su24 froze the buying process for a while. It looks like they finally want to go through this contract now.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

    Why ?

    I expected Algeria to stick with SU30xx multirole platform for its airforce.

    Nope, each aircraft due to be withdrawn will have its own successor. The Su34 will replace the Su24, the Mig35 will replace the Mig29 and so on...
    By the way, the primary mission of our Su30 is aerial defence and aerial domination, even though they do COIN/CAS missions from time to time, but only to fill the gap.

    SU30 is multirole fighter, it can fill all the roles, that is why majority of the world operates 1 type of fighter these days to reduce costs, or they make specialised variants on same platform. I dont think Algeria will get MiG35 however, SU30 already fills all of its roles. If you recall they bought SU30s in a first place instead of MiG29SMTs they rejected.

    Algeria is not rich enough to operate 4 types of fighters, nor there is need for that to be honest.

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:59 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Written black on white:

    "The last eight years there were such talks with this country (Algeria), but on their part there were no any steps. And recently in the "Rosoboronexport" we recieved the official application from Algeria to supply our SU32 aircraft."

    Reliable local sources have confirmed several times that the AAF was about to buy Su32/34, yet they only set an official request now. I highly suspect that the modernisation of our Su24 froze the buying process for a while. It looks like they finally want to go through this contract now.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

    Why ?

    I expected Algeria to stick with SU30xx multirole platform for its airforce.

    Nope, each aircraft due to be withdrawn will have its own successor. The Su34 will replace the Su24, the Mig35 will replace the Mig29 and so on...
    By the way, the primary mission of our Su30 is aerial defence and aerial domination, even though they do COIN/CAS missions from time to time, but only to fill the gap.

    SU30 is multirole fighter, it can fill all the roles, that is why majority of the world operates 1 type of fighter these days to reduce costs, or they make specialised variants on same platform. I dont think Algeria will get MiG35 however, SU30 already fills all of its roles. If you recall they bought SU30s in a first place instead of MiG29SMTs they rejected.

    Algeria is not rich enough to operate 4 types of fighters, nor there is need for that to be honest.

    It is a multirole fighter indeed, but as I said in my previous post, it is not regarded as multirole inside the AAF, by the way, this notion of multirole doesn't suit the Air Force. The Mig35 has been confirmed by a local source beyond question, we shall hear news about that. The total number of Su30 is supposed to be around 60/72, the SMT case didn't change the plan.

    Oh really ? How do you know we can't use 4 types of aircrafts Question  What are we using right now ? Su30, Su24, Mig 29, Mig 25 and Yak 130. Maintenance costs for the Mig29/25 and Su24 are tremendous, new aircrafts should correct that, the maintenance will be easier too. I don't understand this general enthusiasm about multirole. Why should we refrain our ambitions when we can use several types of aircrafts ?

    The need is defined by the Air Force, not by politicians. Do you think that operating only 60 Su30 is enough for the 10th biggest country, in an highly unstable environnement ? Honestly ? That would be a major mistake. Unlike many other countries, the Armed Forces remain one of the top priorities, hence the heavy investments despite the falling oil prices.

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:09 am

    George1 wrote:3x Corvettes 20380 for Algeria can be built in Komsomolsk-on-Amur?

    http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/602369.html

    According to Secret-Difa3 (who was the first to announce the deal), the deal is about 6 ships, apparently built between Severnaya Verf and Komsomolsk-on-Amur. This ships would be "Algerianised versions", they would be larger (10m), heavier (300t) and specialised (3 ASW and 3 AAW). The motorisation would be from MTU, and one ship would already be in an advanced state of construction in Severnaya Verf.
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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:22 am

    Atakor wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Written black on white:

    "The last eight years there were such talks with this country (Algeria), but on their part there were no any steps. And recently in the "Rosoboronexport" we recieved the official application from Algeria to supply our SU32 aircraft."

    Reliable local sources have confirmed several times that the AAF was about to buy Su32/34, yet they only set an official request now. I highly suspect that the modernisation of our Su24 froze the buying process for a while. It looks like they finally want to go through this contract now.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

    Why ?

    I expected Algeria to stick with SU30xx multirole platform for its airforce.

    Nope, each aircraft due to be withdrawn will have its own successor. The Su34 will replace the Su24, the Mig35 will replace the Mig29 and so on...
    By the way, the primary mission of our Su30 is aerial defence and aerial domination, even though they do COIN/CAS missions from time to time, but only to fill the gap.

    SU30 is multirole fighter, it can fill all the roles, that is why majority of the world operates 1 type of fighter these days to reduce costs, or they make specialised variants on same platform. I dont think Algeria will get MiG35 however, SU30 already fills all of its roles. If you recall they bought SU30s in a first place instead of MiG29SMTs they rejected.

    Algeria is not rich enough to operate 4 types of fighters, nor there is need for that to be honest.

    It is a multirole fighter indeed, but as I said in my previous post, it is not regarded as multirole inside the AAF, by the way, this notion of multirole doesn't suit the Air Force. The Mig35 has been confirmed by a local source beyond question, we shall hear news about that. The total number of Su30 is supposed to be around 60/72, the SMT case didn't change the plan.

    Oh really ? How do you know we can't use 4 types of aircrafts Question  What are we using right now ? Su30, Su24, Mig 29, Mig 25 and Yak 130. Maintenance costs for the Mig29/25 and Su24 are tremendous, new aircrafts should correct that, the maintenance will be easier too. I don't understand this general enthusiasm about multirole. Why should we refrain our ambitions when we can use several types of aircrafts ?

    The need is defined by the Air Force, not by politicians. Do you think that operating only 60 Su30 is enough for the 10th biggest country, in an highly unstable environnement ? Honestly ? That would be a major mistake. Unlike many other countries, the Armed Forces remain one of the top priorities, hence the heavy investments despite the falling oil prices.

    40 million citizens and nominal GDP per capta of 6.000USD, 10th in teritory maybe, even most of the teritory is not very useful. For all i care you can get TU160s too, all i am saying is that MiG29s got nothing to do in airforce that already operates SU30s and is not Russia or India, who anways operate them on carriers or actually produce spares and other equipment. Even Russia might drop MiG29 as platfom totally in future, except on carrier airgroup.

    When i did say you "cant" i say its stupid, expencive and not needed. On a long shot i can understand Su32 procurement, there is some logic behind it. still i dont think there is particulary great need for dedicated frontline bomber/strike aircraft in Algerian airforce but let it be. However MiG35 you just mentioned...no. As much as i want MiG to get good sales here i am observing from Algerian point of view. Money that you would save on less expencive fly hour of MiG35 would get wasted though spares and maintenance cost due to lack of unification. You actually might even go alot better with J10 as it uses only 1 engine from same family.

    Yak 130 is something else, its light advanced trainer and they are almost never based on actual fighters, with few rare examples mostly from decades ago. MiG25 roles can be filled with SU30 variants, Algeria does not have any need for high speed, high altitude interceptors whatsoever unless you are planning on having war with NATO, which you are not, and even then they wouldnt help you much. SU24 is being replaced in Russian navy with SU30 variants as they offer far greater versatility.

    What you should do, is operate SU30 varians in additional numbers to replace two already mentioned models, Su32 as it is already ordered and Yak 130 as advanced trainer. I suppose SU35/PAK-FA offer certain amount of unification too so they are not out of the question either. PAK-FA is anyways lighter than SU30 so it might even fill that role you so desperately look towards.

    However whole this Indian syndrome how i call it is not smart. I served in unit that had simple radios from USSR, Yugoslavia, US and France in 2 or 3 variations you should see maintenance nightmare, and we are talking only about radios, in peace time, not totally different figthers. 3 Types of trucks and 2 tracked vehicles, again, nightmare. There is reason why multirole fighters came to be.

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:49 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Atakor wrote:
    I am not. Rumors on Algerian Su-34's has been around for ever and those were much more substantial than export to any other country.

    Written black on white:

    "The last eight years there were such talks with this country (Algeria), but on their part there were no any steps. And recently in the "Rosoboronexport" we recieved the official application from Algeria to supply our SU32 aircraft."

    Reliable local sources have confirmed several times that the AAF was about to buy Su32/34, yet they only set an official request now. I highly suspect that the modernisation of our Su24 froze the buying process for a while. It looks like they finally want to go through this contract now.

    Rumons yes, they are around since 90s however i never actually expected Algeria to file request for it. I was always more prone to expect its export to India for an example.

    Why ?

    I expected Algeria to stick with SU30xx multirole platform for its airforce.

    Nope, each aircraft due to be withdrawn will have its own successor. The Su34 will replace the Su24, the Mig35 will replace the Mig29 and so on...
    By the way, the primary mission of our Su30 is aerial defence and aerial domination, even though they do COIN/CAS missions from time to time, but only to fill the gap.

    SU30 is multirole fighter, it can fill all the roles, that is why majority of the world operates 1 type of fighter these days to reduce costs, or they make specialised variants on same platform. I dont think Algeria will get MiG35 however, SU30 already fills all of its roles. If you recall they bought SU30s in a first place instead of MiG29SMTs they rejected.

    Algeria is not rich enough to operate 4 types of fighters, nor there is need for that to be honest.

    It is a multirole fighter indeed, but as I said in my previous post, it is not regarded as multirole inside the AAF, by the way, this notion of multirole doesn't suit the Air Force. The Mig35 has been confirmed by a local source beyond question, we shall hear news about that. The total number of Su30 is supposed to be around 60/72, the SMT case didn't change the plan.

    Oh really ? How do you know we can't use 4 types of aircrafts Question  What are we using right now ? Su30, Su24, Mig 29, Mig 25 and Yak 130. Maintenance costs for the Mig29/25 and Su24 are tremendous, new aircrafts should correct that, the maintenance will be easier too. I don't understand this general enthusiasm about multirole. Why should we refrain our ambitions when we can use several types of aircrafts ?

    The need is defined by the Air Force, not by politicians. Do you think that operating only 60 Su30 is enough for the 10th biggest country, in an highly unstable environnement ? Honestly ? That would be a major mistake. Unlike many other countries, the Armed Forces remain one of the top priorities, hence the heavy investments despite the falling oil prices.

    40 million citizens and nominal GDP per capta of 6.000USD, 10th in teritory maybe, even most of the teritory is not very useful. For all i care you can get TU160s too, all i am saying is that MiG29s got nothing to do in airforce that already operates SU30s and is not Russia or India, who anways operate them on carriers or actually produce spares and other equipment. Even Russia might drop MiG29 as platfom totally in future, except on carrier airgroup.

    When i did say you "cant" i say its stupid, expencive and not needed. On a long shot i can understand Su32 procurement, there is some logic behind it. still i dont think there is particulary great need for dedicated frontline bomber/strike aircraft in Algerian airforce but let it be. However MiG35 you just mentioned...no. As much as i want MiG to get good sales here i am observing from Algerian point of view. Money that you would save on less expencive fly hour of MiG35 would get wasted though spares and maintenance cost due to lack of unification. You actually might even go alot better with J10 as it uses only 1 engine from same family.

    Yak 130 is something else, its light advanced trainer and they are almost never based on actual fighters, with few rare examples mostly from decades ago. MiG25 roles can be filled with SU30 variants, Algeria does not have any need for high speed, high altitude interceptors whatsoever unless you are planning on having war with NATO, which you are not, and even then they wouldnt help you much. SU24 is being replaced in Russian navy with SU30 variants as they offer far greater versatility.

    What you should do, is operate SU30 varians in additional numbers to replace two already mentioned models, Su32 as it is already ordered and Yak 130 as advanced trainer. I suppose SU35/PAK-FA offer certain amount of unification too so they are not out of the question either. PAK-FA is anyways lighter than SU30 so it might even fill that role you so desperately look towards.

    However whole this Indian syndrome how i call it is not smart. I served in unit that had simple radios from USSR, Yugoslavia, US and France in 2 or 3 variations you should see maintenance nightmare, and we are talking only about radios, in peace time, not totally different figthers. 3 Types of trucks and 2 tracked vehicles, again, nightmare. There is reason why multirole fighters came to be.

    You can't say that and then expect to be taken seriously when it comes to Algeria and what its Air Force needs Exclamation 
    We aren't a random banana republic buying fidelity with weapons unlike the Gulf's monarchies.

    That's definitely your opinion; you and I aren't in charge of anything. The plan has been prepared and studied to answer the very needs expressed by the fighting branch of the AAF, it is not a wish list coming from the mind of some Arab monarch or any other lunatic. I was confident for the Su32, the rest shall come in time.
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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:02 am

    Actually the Russian AF has been the same so far.... it has had plenty of opportunity to upgrade all its MiG-29s to MiG-29SMT and they didn't.

    The main reason was that most of the new multirole capabilities of the MiG-29SMT were not needed.

    They didn't have multi role units so they didn't need multirole aircraft.

    Unification of systems and aircraft types is generally good but you still need specific tools for specific jobs. You don't replace all small arms with SMGs... just because it would be cheaper and simpler... it would not suit the job.

    The MiG-29 has a specific role... short range interceptor. A bigger heavier aircraft that burns more fuel doing the same job is not a better solution if the MiG is already doing the job right.

    Spending 6 or so million dollars to make it an SMT fully multirole fighter bomber does not make sense it it will be operating in an interceptor unit that never attacks ground targets.

    Over 10 years of operation it might save 5 million dollars in maintainence costs, but there is no point in spending 6 million to save 5 million.

    Another factor is that there is a perception that a Flanker is a bigger better Fulcrum so why bother with a Fulcrum.

    The problem with that is that it is wrong... they are different aircraft...


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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:28 am

    Atakor wrote:

    It is a multirole fighter indeed, but as I said in my previous post, it is not regarded as multirole inside the AAF, by the way, this notion of multirole doesn't suit the Air Force. The Mig35 has been confirmed by a local source beyond question, we shall hear news about that. The total number of Su30 is supposed to be around 60/72, the SMT case didn't change the plan.

    Oh really ? How do you know we can't use 4 types of aircrafts Question  What are we using right now ? Su30, Su24, Mig 29, Mig 25 and Yak 130. Maintenance costs for the Mig29/25 and Su24 are tremendous, new aircrafts should correct that, the maintenance will be easier too. I don't understand this general enthusiasm about multirole. Why should we refrain our ambitions when we can use several types of aircrafts ?

    The need is defined by the Air Force, not by politicians. Do you think that operating only 60 Su30 is enough for the 10th biggest country, in an highly unstable environnement ? Honestly ? That would be a major mistake. Unlike many other countries, the Armed Forces remain one of the top priorities, hence the heavy investments despite the falling oil prices.

    I wager that maybe it is best for Algeria for financial purposes, to indeed use more Su-30's in replacement for MiG-25, MiG-29's and various Su-24's, while also obtaining Su-34's. So have a much larger airforce of Su-30's in various configurations like one more geared to air superiority and then maybe some more geared to strikes? I think what militarov was stating is that having such commonality will help with logistics (big time, really important here) and reduce significantly the costs of maintenance. Doing so, more money can be allocated to purchasing more of the same type of aircrafts, as well as possibly other types of equipment (ground forces equipment - something like a Ratnik program, etc).

    Another thing that may benefit Algeria is looking to possibly obtain an industry in Algeria for aircraft development. Something like an assembly plant for the aircrafts? Maybe a huge multicenter like aircraft maintenance and assembly? If they purchase enough of such equipment, I imagine they could strike such a deal. This would in turn bring a lot of the money back into Algeria's hands and as well help possibly better benefits for logistics for the airforce.

    Those MiG-25's will have to be replaced sooner than later. So hopefully they have an idea as to what they want. Algeria wasn't impressed with the MiG-29SMT upgrade and thus went with more Su-30's. I imagine they may indeed just phase the MiG-29's out of service and aim for more Su-30's. Seems like it may very well be the case. They could opt for upgrading the MiG-25's or wait it out till a new interceptor is created by Mikoyan.
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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:19 am

    Phase out the MiG-29s and just use more Su-30s... sounds like the Sukhoi marketing department...

    Do you use an IBM clone or an Apple?

    If you use an apple do you think it makes sense to change to an IBM clone because they are rather more common and cheaper?

    Yet people still have apple computers and claim they are easier and simpler to use than IBM standard computers...

    Go figure... hundreds of millions of people no being sensible and not just picking the most cost effective computer.

    Perhaps it is because of a variety of needs and tastes that a variety of solutions can be expected...

    BTW what makes you think a MiG-35 would be in any way inferior to an Su-30?


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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually the Russian AF has been the same so far.... it has had plenty of opportunity to upgrade all its MiG-29s to MiG-29SMT and they didn't.

    The main reason was that most of the new multirole capabilities of the MiG-29SMT were not needed.

    They didn't have multi role units so they didn't need multirole aircraft.

    Unification of systems and aircraft types is generally good but you still need specific tools for specific jobs. You don't replace all small arms with SMGs... just because it would be cheaper and simpler... it would not suit the job.

    The MiG-29 has a specific role... short range interceptor. A bigger heavier aircraft that burns more fuel doing the same job is not a better solution if the MiG is already doing the job right.

    Spending 6 or so million dollars to make it an SMT fully multirole fighter bomber does not make sense it it will be operating in an interceptor unit that never attacks ground targets.

    Over 10 years of operation it might save 5 million dollars in maintainence costs, but there is no point in spending 6 million to save 5 million.

    Another factor is that there is a perception that a Flanker is a bigger better Fulcrum so why bother with a Fulcrum.

    The problem with that is that it is wrong... they are different aircraft...

    Actually MiG29 was frontline fighter rather than real interceptor, and as such it lost alot of its real value post 80s, thats one of the reasons why many pure fighters were phased out of service though time or got modernisations that added air to ground, recond and similar capabilities.

    Actually T10/SU27 platfom was always outperforming MiG29 in almost every aspect, except operating costs and initial price that was always higher. There is a reason why no new MiGs havent been obtained for 2 decades now basically in RuAF. MiG had its big place in USSR doctrine however today i dont think so, id rather fit 1 engined multirole fighter in its place in RuAF but atm such platform does not exist, maybe in future.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:37 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Atakor wrote:

    It is a multirole fighter indeed, but as I said in my previous post, it is not regarded as multirole inside the AAF, by the way, this notion of multirole doesn't suit the Air Force. The Mig35 has been confirmed by a local source beyond question, we shall hear news about that. The total number of Su30 is supposed to be around 60/72, the SMT case didn't change the plan.

    Oh really ? How do you know we can't use 4 types of aircrafts Question  What are we using right now ? Su30, Su24, Mig 29, Mig 25 and Yak 130. Maintenance costs for the Mig29/25 and Su24 are tremendous, new aircrafts should correct that, the maintenance will be easier too. I don't understand this general enthusiasm about multirole. Why should we refrain our ambitions when we can use several types of aircrafts ?

    The need is defined by the Air Force, not by politicians. Do you think that operating only 60 Su30 is enough for the 10th biggest country, in an highly unstable environnement ? Honestly ? That would be a major mistake. Unlike many other countries, the Armed Forces remain one of the top priorities, hence the heavy investments despite the falling oil prices.

    I wager that maybe it is best for Algeria for financial purposes, to indeed use more Su-30's in replacement for MiG-25, MiG-29's and various Su-24's, while also obtaining Su-34's.  So have a much larger airforce of Su-30's in various configurations like one more geared to air superiority and then maybe some more geared to strikes?  I think what militarov was stating is that having such commonality will help with logistics (big time, really important here) and reduce significantly the costs of maintenance.  Doing so, more money can be allocated to purchasing more of the same type of aircrafts, as well as possibly other types of equipment (ground forces equipment - something like a Ratnik program, etc).

    Another thing that may benefit Algeria is looking to possibly obtain an industry in Algeria for aircraft development.  Something like an assembly plant for the aircrafts?  Maybe a huge multicenter like aircraft maintenance and assembly?  If they purchase enough of such equipment, I imagine they could strike such a deal.  This would in turn bring a lot of the money back into Algeria's hands and as well help possibly better benefits for logistics for the airforce.

    Those MiG-25's will have to be replaced sooner than later.  So hopefully they have an idea as to what they want.  Algeria wasn't impressed with the MiG-29SMT upgrade and thus went with more Su-30's.  I imagine they may indeed just phase the MiG-29's out of service and aim for more Su-30's.  Seems like it may very well be the case.  They could opt for upgrading the MiG-25's or wait it out till a new interceptor is created by Mikoyan.  

    Good replacement for MiG25s could be SU35, as they do not really need "real" interceptor but rather multirole fighter with significant air superiority capabilities. Again sharing same platform T10 with SU30 would fit the profile of saving costs. I can see the point of US, Russia, China, India... operating multiple way different platforms (even tho India is going abit over the top) however i dont find justification for Algeria.
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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:25 am

    Actually MiG29 was frontline fighter rather than real interceptor, and as such it lost alot of its real value post 80s, thats one of the reasons why many pure fighters were phased out of service though time or got modernisations that added air to ground, recond and similar capabilities.

    In the Soviet/Russian air defence system a short range fighter is still an interceptor... the only difference is that sometimes it will patrol airspace to intercept any enemy incoming threats from cruise missiles to fighters and bombers and of course fighter bombers.

    Considering it will have two large AAMs and at least two smaller AAMs... normally R-27Ps or R-27Rs or a combination of the two, with at least two and often 4 R-73s as a standard weapon load I would suggest there is little leeway for alternative air to ground ordinance like guided weapons or dumb bombs.

    Actually T10/SU27 platfom was always outperforming MiG29 in almost every aspect, except operating costs and initial price that was always higher. There is a reason why no new MiGs havent been obtained for 2 decades now basically in RuAF. MiG had its big place in USSR doctrine however today i dont think so, id rather fit 1 engined multirole fighter in its place in RuAF but atm such platform does not exist, maybe in future.

    It was never anything to do with performance and everything to political influence. Sukhoi dominated the post Soviet period and MiG floundered because of lack of the export success Sukhoi enjoyed.

    Good replacement for MiG25s could be SU35, as they do not really need "real" interceptor but rather multirole fighter with significant air superiority capabilities. Again sharing same platform T10 with SU30 would fit the profile of saving costs. I can see the point of US, Russia, China, India... operating multiple way different platforms (even tho India is going abit over the top) however i dont find justification for Algeria.

    The real issue is what do they want... by having different types for different roles they can optimise their capabilities and costs. If you are going to buy a car for everyone in your family then do you just buy expensive sports cars for everyone? or do you buy a cheap second hand car for the learner drivers going to university, a cheap run around stationwagon for the wife to get the groceries and cart the kids to sports or wherever they need to go and a soft top sports car that would have cost a fortune new but is cheaper to buy now it is 30 years old for you.

    Do you think a sensible people mover for everyone makes sense... cheap to run and of course able to carry everyone if needed... all the same engine and tires and batteries and parts... from an economic position that is what you are saying... but in the real world new drivers get cheap cars, mum gets a people mover that will cart around kids and their friends and do the groceries on the weekend, while dad gets either a sports car or a nice modern sedan.

    The irony is that suggesting Algeria can't afford to have the right plane for the job is amusing... these aircraft and the weapons they carry are f*ing expensive anyway... the few dollars you might save having all the same type is lost when that company has you by the balls because the other aircraft makers have gone bust because the maker you went with now dominates the market.

    Sukhois are generally good value for money but ask India about upgrades... brand new technology is NOT cheap. Having alternative options is a good thing even if your accountant does not agree.


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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:12 pm

    You make a very good point Garry.  I suppose a mix of Su-30's for air superiority and MiG-35's for true multiroll purpose would be ideal.
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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:58 am

    Don't get me wrong, long range fighters like Flankers are excellent aircraft, but just look at NZ to see what I mean.

    NZ is a long narrow country but the logic applies to all large countries.

    It sounds like good sense to have long range fighters in large countries but that is false.

    If NZ had a budget for 20 fighters, they would all be Flankers and based in the north island. The south island would not have any aircraft based there because the range of the Flankers means they think they could cover it and could save money by basing them all together.

    This is very true... they would save money but a Flanker is no faster than a Fulcrum and if there was a threat to the southern lakes area where a lot of NZs electrical power is generated... and more importantly blowing up dams and drowning people would be as useful a terrorist act as any other you could manage in the north island... of course if they flew an aircraft into the Beehive (NZ parliment building) we'd be thanking them.

    The point is that with longer range aircraft you might be able to fly a radius of 2,000km as opposed to a radius of 1,500km for a MiG-35 but the point is that two MiGs offer better coverage of that area than one Flanker could ever manage.

    When we retired our skyhawks they didn't even send them down to Dunedin because it was considered too far... bloody waste of money anyway.

    For a country like Algeria in places where there is open desert and not much to defend in some places then a Flanker makes sense, but in urban areas you want more smaller lighter cheaper aircraft... and that is where the MiGs come in... they are complimentary.


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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:39 pm

    Edit


    Last edited by Atakor on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:42 pm

    Atakor wrote:Le Su35 en test en Algérie


    Un chasseur Su 35 a effectué une série de tests en Algérie durant la semaine écoulée. Cette batterie de tests a englobé les segments pilotage, radar et armement. Ils ont eu lieu au polygone d’essais de Tamanrasset.
    L’Algérie qui dispose déjà d’une flotte de Su30 MKA, qui sera renforcée par une seconde commande de 28 Su30 SM. L’autre dérivé du Flanker qui intéresse l’Algérie est le Su34 dans sa version export (Su32) dont un premier batch de 12 appareils aurait déjà été commandé pour les forces aériennes. Il sera probablement suivi de plusieurs autres lots.
    l’intéret pour le Su 35 a été exprimé depuis cinq ans, mais les autorités algériennes ont préféré attendre son entrée en service effective et le retex de ses premiers clients export.
    L’entrée en lice de ces deux appareils dans le conflit syrien semble avoir fini de convaincre Alger.

    http://www.menadefense.net/2016/02/06/le-su35-en-test-en-algerie/

    A Su35 was in Tamanrasset last week for tests. In the end we might get more than 80 Su30.
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    berhoum

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    Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  berhoum on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:41 pm

    Algeria places order of Russian hunters(fighters) Sukhoï Su-35  cheers russia


    The results(profits) of the entered the lists of this device in the Syrian conflict seems to have stopped convincing Algiers, according to the same source(spring) which specifies that a command(order) was already made by Algeria with the Russian builder(manufacturer).

    http://www.algerie1.com/actualite/lalgerie-passe-sa-commande-de-chasseurs-russes-su35/

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    Re: Russia - Algeria military contracts

    Post  Atakor on Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:22 pm

    Careful Berhoum, Algérie1 is not the best source, we should wait for a more solid confirmation Wink

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