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    2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

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    d_taddei2
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    2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:09 pm

    Hi all i am looking for your views on the 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B and its usefullness on the modern battlefield.
    The reason for this is some time ago i was on another forum and the people there reckon its useless,
    name due to the following points: its age, slow rate of fire, and crew is exposed to shrapnel etc,
    I personally believe that the system is still of some use, the range of the gun is pretty much on par with most systems,
    the vehicle itself benefits from armour and the capability of being tracked so should have no real problems going over rough terrain.
    The vehicle is also NBC protected. The gun has semi automatic breech block, and a decent size of calibre, the system can also be used in the counter battery role. The systems have also had various upgrades which include, satellite positioning, self orientating gyroscopic systems, to name a couple. Also various types of ammo such as smart submunitions, active and passive radio jamming, anti tank, smoke and even small yield nuclear rounds.

    I agree the crew are exposed to shrapnel etc, but if we are to look at other field artillery systems (this is what the people on the other forum was comparing it to due to the fact the crew have to leave the vehicle to fire and load.) But where the people on the other forum fail to see that all other field artillery systems dont have the armour protection or capability of going over rough terrain when on the move, aswel as having NBC protection. The field systems they where comparing it to such as M198 and M777 and even though these systems can be transported via parachute, chinook, but most likely by truck, i still think the 2S5 system is better. Trucks lack armour, NBC protection, and are nowhere near as good at tackling rough terrain especially when towing an artillery gun. I think they were wrong to compare the 2S5 to M198/M777 as they arent self propelled.

    I know Russia and a few other ex-soviet countries still use the system and Finland are in the process of scrapping them (if they havent already). Has the system had its day as a self propelled system??????

    As always any views, suggestions of use etc are always welcome.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Neoprime on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:18 pm

    I could be wrong but the only thing they could be good for is shooting nuclear shells, and to Surface to Air Missiles.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:21 pm

    Neoprime wrote:I could be wrong but the only thing they could be good for is shooting nuclear shells, and to Surface to Air Missiles.

    Surface to air missles???????? you sure you know what 2S5 is?????? its not a anti air weapon.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Neoprime on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:13 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Neoprime wrote:I could be wrong but the only thing they could be good for is shooting nuclear shells, and to Surface to Air Missiles.
    Surface to air missles???????? you sure you know what 2S5 is?????? its not a anti air weapon.
    The mistake I made is that it can fire a Should-Fired Missile onboard, not thru the cannon.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:30 pm

    Neoprime wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Neoprime wrote:I could be wrong but the only thing they could be good for is shooting nuclear shells, and to Surface to Air Missiles.
    Surface to air missles???????? you sure you know what 2S5 is?????? its not a anti air weapon.
    The mistake I made is that it can fire a Should-Fired Missile onboard, not thru the cannon.

    As far as i am aware the 2S5 has never had any anti air missle including shoulder fired mounted on it, i believe is does have 7.62mm MMG on a small turret/cupola.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:23 am

    It has a good long range gun... if it was refitted with the new gun from Koalition which gave it a 70km range with standard shells and of course the new fuse kits with guidance packages to allow 10m CEP over that entire range then lack of armour would become largely irrelevant as it would be a shoot and scoot type vehicle... the lack of armour meaning reduced weight and better mobility.

    Not as versatile as Coalition or MSTA, but a good long gun on a low cost mount.

    If you had access to lots... I would say upgrade them and use them as your standard artillery in 152mm calibre... for Scotland converting them to 155mm and fitting the biggest barrel you could fit... in fact if you are upgrading with the Koalition barrel then upgrading it with an auto ammo handler and loader could be added to the upgrade to allow a burst of say 10-15 rounds to be fired and then drive rapidly to another location and then reload and fire again.

    It really comes down to what you see as being the modern battlefield.

    Tied in to a modern network the excellent range of the gun would mean it could be located at a fire base and just use its range to support friendly troops from a safe area where armour protection for the crew is not important.

    Auto loading could alleviate the rate of fire issue, but with GLONASS guided shells a high rate of fire would just mean you would run out of targets more rapidly...

    It is very much like Uragan in the sense that lighter and heavier weapons have stolen the spotlight (ie Grad and Smerch, and 2S1 and 2S3/MSTA).

    The Pion would be an interesting vehicle to revive too with its 110kg HE shells making a splash... the guidance kits for the 152mm ammo should fit the larger calibres of 203mm and 240mm too.


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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Regular on Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:18 pm

    Perfect artillery pieces for low intensity warfare. Sorry, but I don't see any problems with crew exposion while operating the gun. They are not suited for artillery duels. Not with such range and fire rate. But when You need to destroy fortification or terrorist camp it would be grunts best friend. I would rely on tulpan more than on SU-25 if I would be calling in strikes in urban warfare.
    Countries who phased them out did it because they have no use in them. Does Finland need such systems or it would be more wise for them to save money and rely on standard artillery systems?

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:28 pm

    hi all thanks for the replies.

    The 2S7 Pion and Tulpan i am saving for a future post, but yes there awesome weapons, you definately dont want to be on a receiving end of those. I believe syrian troops have been using Tulpan with great success.

    The Tulpan in urban areas is ideal, compared to SU-25, the SU-25 is likely to take some damage, while the Tulpan can sit way back fire with devastating effect.

    As for the Scotland part, i believe they wont be getting any of the AS90's the UK currently use, which fire 3 rounds in 10seconds of 155mm. They may get 105mm light guns thats it. Which are ok, but lack the range and power of the bigger guns.

    Your right GarryB that the other stuff does steal the lime light probably due to being in greater numbers and more armies using them, but maybe the 2S1 upgraded version (130mm) would be ideal for Scotland, especially if they used MT-LB's for other uses like comd, ambulance, EW etc, then they would be using the same platform, so maintainence and spares etc would be easier.

    I think upgrades should be done on 2S7 Pion and Tulpan, and that they should be exported etc, especially for counter insurgency, and urban areas, like you said the new battlefield is on the doorstep now, not in vast areas of ground or in the air.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:11 am

    It sounds like the Russian Army has decided to upgrade its 2S1s , so there likely wont be that many available for export...

    They are taking out the 122mm gun (which has become as obsolete as the 105mm) and they are replacing it with a 120mm gun/mortar rifled weapon.

    This results in a slight reduction in range... something like 14km range instead of 15km range with the 122mm, but the addition of the 120mm mortar shell range of ammo including western guided 120mm mortar and Russian guided 120mm mortar rounds and of course the 120mm shells developed for the NONA including HE and HEAT.

    With guided shells the low rate of fire of the Pion and Tulip are no longer important, but the enormous shell weight become very useful too.

    Pion with its 203mm 110kg shells packs tremendous punch but the Tulip, with its steep near vertical trajectory becomes very useful against targets in mountains and urban areas.


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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:40 pm

    hi all thanks for the replies.

    I wouldnt expect anymore than one round being needed from Tulpan or Pion to destroy most targets so like you say slow rate of fire isnt a big problem.


    GarryB you say 122mm and 105mm are becoming obsolete, is which capacity? i know there many 122mm artillery pieces still in widespread use and 105mm is very much still in use with western armies, i know from my time in the army they ranted and raved about the 105mm light gun and how great, versatile, and usefull it was, it even had anti tank rounds with an effective range 800m which i thought at the time to be pretty useless considering most anti tank gun rounds arent up to scratch at taking out modern tanks, and 800m being too short a range to be engaging MBT's with a static gun, suicidal i thought. Personally i think the days of static field guns are limited, with so many counter battery systems available now and the number of attack helicopters being purchased, also most armies are turning towards highly mobile forces and artillery is going the same way, the static field gun needs to be replaced by self propelled equipment, the quicker the better. The shoot and scoot techique seems to be the best tactic these days.

    I am a fan of the BTR-80 NONA version think this is ideal support for mechanised forces, these along with BTR-82A, and S1-Pantsir, and you have a mechanised force to worry about.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:10 am

    GarryB you say 122mm and 105mm are becoming obsolete, is which capacity? i know there many 122mm artillery pieces still in widespread use and 105mm is very much still in use with western armies,
    Very capable and popular weapons, but against a modern enemy with proper body armour and modern armoured vehicles these calibres are becoming a bit light and also lack range.

    Against many opponents they are fine but against a modern army you might find you have to get too close to get within range...

    taking out modern tanks, and 800m being too short a range to be engaging MBT's with a static gun, suicidal i thought.
    Towed light guns are very small and hard to spot, but are mobile and cheap and in the case of 125mm smoothbores able to fire the full range of guided anti tank missiles and also have no length limit on their APFSDS rounds like the autoloaders on some tanks.

    They certainly have their place in certain roles.

    Personally i think the days of static field guns are limited, with so many counter battery systems available now and the number of attack helicopters being purchased, also most armies are turning towards highly mobile forces and artillery is going the same way, the static field gun needs to be replaced by self propelled equipment, the quicker the better. The shoot and scoot techique seems to be the best tactic these days.
    For a fixed target that needs to be defended they are useful... and those helos might have trouble identifying a towed gun, yet a 125mm laser beam riding missile that can kill helos at 5km might come as a surprise.

    Lack of mobility can be a virtue... you don't want your artillery direct fire fire support to run away or be moved to a different area... you want it to stay there and to keep firing till it is crushed under the tracks of enemy tanks, or it runs out of ammo and is abandoned. A towed gun can be just as useful as a tank but much much cheaper.

    I am a fan of the BTR-80 NONA version think this is ideal support for mechanised forces, these along with BTR-82A, and S1-Pantsir, and you have a mechanised force to worry about.
    Those 120mm rifled gun mortars look like powerful effective weapons that would be very useful with their high elevation and direct fire capability.

    Variable charge ammo means short range targets can be engaged with steep elevations yet not have the round travel a long path to the target, which greatly improves the effectiveness of the fragmentation and accuracy as it has a steep trajectory and short flight time.


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    2S5, Giatsint-S

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:41 am

    2S5, Giatsint-S


    Please note the much larger size of the ammunition case used by this higher-level gun with respect to that of the lower-level 2S19 class of guns and 2S3 class of gun-howitzers.






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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  jhelb on Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:52 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:2S5, Giatsint-S

    Outside Russia, Belarus is the largest operator of the 2S5. Just wanted to claim the Bragging Rights. cheers

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    Some info

    Post  rtech on Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:42 pm



    152-mm self-propelled gun 2S5 "Giatsint-S" is intended for counter-battery fire, destruction of permanent fire emplacements and field structures, for combat with hostile heavy self-propelled artillery and tanks.

    The sighting equipment provides for direct and indirect fire. SPG can be operated in various climatic conditions.

    MAIN CHARACTERISTICS
    Calibre, mm 152
    Maximum range of fire, km:
    HEP 28,4
    RAP (rocket-assisted projectile) 33,1
    Minimum range of fire, km 8,6
    Rate of fire, rds./min. 6
    Elevating angle, deg. -2...+57
    Traverse laying angle, deg. -15...+15
    Accuracy of fire:
    In range, Epr/Xmax 1/267
    On side, Epd, m 20
    Ammunition capacity, rds. 30
    Weight of HEP, kg 46
    Weight of SPG, t 28,2
    Crew, men 5

    With new 3OF59 round the range is 30.5km

    So Giatsint is quite long range piece the best part about 30.5km figure is that it is with conventional shell not BB or RAP round

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:56 pm

    For the purpose of comparison, here is an image showing the case sizes for the Msta class of guns—long-range charge, full charge, and reduced charge. Msta-B (2A65) is also shown in the image.



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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:10 am

    The information I have states the range with standard round for the 2S5 is 28.4km and 33km with rocket assisted rounds and a minimum range of 9.1km.


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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  rtech on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:58 am

    GarryB wrote:The information I have states the range with standard round for the 2S5 is 28.4km and 33km with rocket assisted rounds and a minimum range of 9.1km.

    Well my source dated 2001 is quoting 28.4KM with 3OF29, 30.5KM with 3OF59 and 37KM with 3OF60 (which seems to be RAP)

    The reason for this improvement in range is said to be improved aerodynamics.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:45 pm

    Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:49 pm

    Does anybody have images of the rounds for the 152 mm, 57 cal B-38 guns on Sverdlov?

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:55 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:For the purpose of comparison, here is an image showing the case sizes for the Msta class of guns—long-range charge, full charge, and reduced charge. Msta-B (2A65) is also shown in the image.



    As can be seen the biggest charge is shorter than the projectile.

    The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  rtech on Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:16 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.

    Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:31 pm

    rtech wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.

    Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.

    What I meant was that these range values for 2S5 are a lot less than their true values, which are much higher.

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 01, 2015 1:21 am

    rtech wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.

    Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.

    Generally true.

    Ofc a common trope on this forum has been "export/published figures are all wrong, the Russian equivalents have magically massively better performance across the board!".

    That is occasionally true, but far from always.

    There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.


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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  rtech on Fri May 01, 2015 12:30 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    rtech wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.

    Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.

    Generally true.

    Ofc a common trope on this forum has been "export/published figures are all wrong, the Russian equivalents have magically massively better performance across the board!".

    That is occasionally true, but far from always.

    There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.


    Across the board is silly but theres no shame in 30.5km figure. G6 has 30km with conventional shell. And conventional shells are most useful since ERFB BB all have rather big accuracy disadvantages.

    Giatsint-b a 1970s howitzer is as good as latest from west in most useful scenarios.

    For guided/corrected rounds in 30km+ there is Coalitsiya shaping up...

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    Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

    Post  Werewolf on Fri May 01, 2015 12:43 pm

    That is why they develope RAP rounds anyway, someone mentioned there are RAP rounds for 80km range for some western howitzer.

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