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    Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:48 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:It isn't all about the amount they invest in either. We also do have so little information on were exactly the funds are going to. Amazon doesn't invest that much, believe me. Their entire financial structure of investment is in data centers and distribution. I work for a particular competitor and I know what they invest in and what we invest in.  Don't be fooled into a lot of this technology because a huge portion of it is gimmicks that aren't as useful mixed in ridiculous amounts of marketing. What most people don't grasp, is how much marketing costs.

    Russian universities hold competition every year in AI development and other software skills and this year they heals one using Elbrus based machines. Results were quite good. You don't need to shell out tons of money on something to expect results. Funny thing about that belief is that you need to. But it is what causes inflation and overall expensive toys (VR as example).

    We will see the results eventually. I know Yandex really gets involved in AI development. Their new search engine structure is AI based, compared to Google analysts based.

    dont get me wrong I am big fan of Russia competing in AI market. But for this skills are not enough.  Money is that counts too. Even if Russian startup comes with brilliant innovation then what? who is gonna pour 60 Billions of Rubles in scaling up? This is where  I see the problem.

    Yandex  sure (Alisa if you are not sure what it is ask her Smile has around 1 BLn USD turnover.  CISCO alone invests 5bln in R&D, Google 11 BLN and Amazon around 15 bln... Here is the problem. I hope that with Russia on govt level will keep pace of investments




    Companies that can do this are fairly small in Russia and this must be either state or state funding via banks.


    BTW Amazon - doubles R&D staff both in Berlin and London this year.  Is there any place in Russia where 1000 scientists work on AI in one place?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-16/amazon-isn-t-just-spending-big-bucks-on-groceries





    you really don't know what your talking about. I have to work in the analysts field, and I can tell you, that you are reading too much business news and not realising what is going on.  Trust me, we don't invest as much as you think into these specific fields. Companies do investments if they know they will get a return. They don't do it for shits and giggles. So these are specifics. Company I work for is investing large sums for automation and AI. Not exactly how you may think though.

    Ill give you an example. US universities have budgets 100x that of Russia, yet, they lose out to Russian students most of the time in international academic competitions.

    You think that pumping lots of money creates innovation. It doesn't. What we are witnessing is an inflation not seen since Zimbabwe without having the US dollar being worthless in international market.  The MiC in US is testimony to this.

    If you read zerohedge, they talk about the current IT bubble in US waiting to pop. Billions in "value" of nothing.

    Why I used yandex as example is they have done a lot more than Google did in shorter period of time with significantly less budget. Its an example everyone should follow.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:38 pm

    miketheterrible wrote: you really don't know what your talking about. I have to work in the analysts field, and I can tell you, that you are reading too much business news and not realising what is going on.  Trust me, we don't invest as much as you think into these specific fields. Companies do investments if they know they will get a return. They don't do it for shits and giggles. So these are specifics. Company I work for is investing large sums for automation and AI. Not exactly how you may think though.
    .

    Actually in area of AI and financing  I do not from press:) .  Not sure about your assumptions but as for AI there is no need to argue. I am saying that Russia does not have now a mechanism to scale up startups like stock exchange and investment funds in US or support of state for commercial enterprises like China.

    It is not enough to be smart you need money to implement and market your idea to product right? You have successful startup but your competitors got 10x financing guess who will win? It does not matter that much if your spending is optimal or not if your investments are greater by order or 2 orders of magnitude.  



    The second issue I see is market. You need to sell what you built. West extended own sphere of influence in large portion f world and there is no such thing like free market.
    Russian hi tech will be one or the other way bu non market means pushed out.


    These are challenges I can see now. If I am wrong please point where exactly.




    miketheterrible wrote:
    Ill give you an example. US universities have budgets 100x that of Russia, yet, they lose out to Russian students most of the time in international academic competitions.
    .


    Not loosing to all but to some exceptional people who en masse go where work where the better bmoney is. Guess where. Who's R&D whey will support then. Let me reverse your question how many Russian scientists are working in US and how many US in Russia?

    miketheterrible wrote:  Why I used yandex as example is they have done a lot more than Google did in shorter period of time with significantly less budget.  Its an example everyone should follow.

    Yandex did more then Google? with my all sympathy to Yandex in which field exactly? hardware? drones? AI? customer base? revenues?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:10 pm

    Yandex growth is far more in shorter years than Google's start did. Same with use of AI as I mentioned. Drones and the rest is nothing, no need for you to even compare since that is amateur talk. Hardware isn't even made by any of the companies you posted. Hardware is purchased elsewhere and then made into something else. Asia produces those, excluding some IC's at Intel fabs or manufacturers like supermicro, IBM and or Oracle which have used Taiwan for years anyway for their IC development.

    The other points are meaningless. Russian scientists are everywhere due to fact that they churn out programmers and alike more than others due to their educational system, which I highlighted before as a good thing. So your not gonna find much US researchers as most of them are from outside the country to begin with.

    You can lie to yourself all you want on this importance, but all you are comparing to are simple commercial projects what you think is AI, isn't. The only companies actually involved in it are companies like Gooogle, Yandex, Facebook and alike. Even then, for commercial use and isn't true AI anyway.  I wish I could tell you who I work for, but then it becomes simple to round down to who I am for others in same company and that's a no no. But essentially, our AI development isn't real AI. But on market and paper, it is. Sorters are example of said AI.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:44 pm


    Vann will shit his bed lol1

    Russia Rolls Out Its Own VR Helmets

    https://sputniknews.com/science/201709111057289957-russia-virtual-reality-helmets/


    Company site:
    http://deusvr.ru/
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:07 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Yandex growth is far more in shorter years than Google's start did.
    Yandex founded in 2000, Google 1998. Right



    miketheterrible wrote: Same with use of AI as I mentioned. Drones and the rest is nothing, no need for you to even compare since that is amateur talk.  
    Hardware isn't even made by any of the companies you posted. Hardware is purchased elsewhere and then made into something else.

    Yes those companies are called subsidiaries of Alphabet in Google's case. Like Boston Robotics,Deep Mind or Motorola Mobility. Please stay focused. We might differ in opinions but do not get personal.







    miketheterrible wrote: You can lie to yourself all you want on this importance, but all you are comparing to are simple commercial projects what you think is AI, isn't. The only companies actually involved in it are companies like Gooogle, Yandex, Facebook and alike. Even then, for commercial use and isn't true AI anyway.  I wish I could tell you who I work for, but then it becomes simple to round down to who I am for others in same company and that's a no no. But essentially, our AI development isn't real AI. But on market and paper, it is. Sorters are example of said AI.


    hmmm tell me what is real AI for you pls? This real deal not some fake news stuff vision systems using Tensor Flow or Carnegie Caffe's frameworks or Amazon's autonomous vehicle program.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:20 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Vann will shit his bed  lol1

    Russia Rolls Out Its Own VR Helmets

    https://sputniknews.com/science/201709111057289957-russia-virtual-reality-helmets/


    Company site:
    http://deusvr.ru/

    not sure about Vann and why Smile but to illustrate my point. How do you think this startup will develop?
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:25 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Actually in area of AI and financing  I do not from press:) .  Not sure about your assumptions but as for AI there is no need to argue. I am saying that Russia does not have now a mechanism to scale up startups like stock exchange and investment funds in US or support of state for commercial enterprises like China.

    It is not enough to be smart you need money to implement and market your idea to product right? You have successful startup but your competitors got 10x financing guess who will win? It does not matter that much if your spending is optimal or not if your investments are greater by order or 2 orders of magnitude.  


    The US financing/banking system broken, the top level ( like IT startups) financing easy, but justifying by the falling number of enterprises the SME sector and the business creating process dead .
    So, the financial system of the US is dysfunctional.

    And sadly the Apple has higher revenue than the GM, but the GM has more employee than the prior.

    The backbone of the problem is the broken US job market.

    There is no fight any more for workers.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:27 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Yandex growth is far more in shorter years than Google's start did.
    Yandex founded in 2000, Google 1998. Right



    miketheterrible wrote: Same with use of AI as I mentioned. Drones and the rest is nothing, no need for you to even compare since that is amateur talk.  
    Hardware isn't even made by any of the companies you posted. Hardware is purchased elsewhere and then made into something else.

    Yes those companies are called subsidiaries of  Alphabet in Google's case.  Like Boston Robotics,Deep Mind or Motorola Mobility. Please stay focused. We might differ in opinions but do not get personal.







    miketheterrible wrote: You can lie to yourself all you want on this importance, but all you are comparing to are simple commercial projects what you think is AI, isn't. The only companies actually involved in it are companies like Gooogle, Yandex, Facebook and alike. Even then, for commercial use and isn't true AI anyway.  I wish I could tell you who I work for, but then it becomes simple to round down to who I am for others in same company and that's a no no. But essentially, our AI development isn't real AI. But on market and paper, it is. Sorters are example of said AI.


    hmmm tell me what is real AI for you pls? This real deal not some fake news stuff vision systems using Tensor Flow or Carnegie Caffe's frameworks or Amazon's autonomous vehicle program.

    ill just say this: AI is a library used. It isn't new tech. What you are witnessing is similar tech used since 1970's but more refined today. I would like to know your qualifications on this,seeing as how I do analysts for this kind of field.
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:35 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    The US financing/banking system broken, the top level ( like IT startups) financing easy, but justifying by the falling number of enterprises the SME sector and the business creating process dead .
    So, the financial system of the US is dysfunctional.

    And sadly the Apple has higher revenue than the GM, but the GM has more employee than the prior.

    The backbone of the problem is the broken US job market.

    There is no fight any more for workers.

    we discuss here Russian system not American. There is no need to praise or critique US way besides simply accepting truth:it works and generates innovations.
    US was mentioned just as a reference. My question how to improve way Russian startups can grow into large companies is still valid can you try to speculate how to do this?  My very subjective opinion is that in Russian economic bloc is somehow belief that mythical investors come and  share wealth to make Russian hi-tech grow.  I hope I am miserably wrong here








    miketheterrible wrote:
    gunshipdemocracy wrote:

    hmmm tell me what is real AI for you pls? This real deal not some fake news stuff vision systems using Tensor Flow or Carnegie Caffe's frameworks or Amazon's autonomous vehicle program.

    ill just say this: AI is a library used. It isn't new tech. What you are witnessing is similar tech used since 1970's but more refined today.   I would like to know your qualifications on this,seeing as how I do analysts for this kind of field.

    AI is library used?  wow never heard such statement do not worry about my qualifications jut tell me on your level.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:47 pm

    I already did. You can tell me yours, because it will provide me insight as to why you think like you do.

    Since you state Canada in location, then you may know how well automation has worked, especially during lets say winter.  It isn't about intelligence or learning, its about its sensor suite and how well it can determin based upon its library. Algorithms. Output is based upon its input and that is gathered by a library. It will determine what, were and possibly how based upon certain inputs. So a robot jumps into a lake, it determines its in a lake based upon various parameters.  AI will be same everywhere - you can think of movies like terminator and signed, but that isn't real, and don't be for a long time or of at all.  They are machines. A robot won't go to Regina because it wanted to. It will go because in the end, it was programmed to. There are some exceptions of course, like a self driving car learning from other drivers (suposedly) but it is still creating a model (within its library) based upon algorithms from what its sensor picked up, from other drivers.

    Buran was no different. Programming.

    For Russia, its entire structure is based upon scientific institutions that are ran by the universities. Universities are contracted out to companies for innovation. No different in US and Canada.

    Most of the US tech development derives from military projects that are sold to open bidders when commercialized for civil use.  Been that way for forever. Only becoming a recent thing in Russia.  The defense companies contract certain institutions and or universities for R&D
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:02 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I already did. You can tell me yours, because it will provide me insight as to why you think like you do.

    Since you state Canada in location, then you may know how well automation has worked, especially during lets say winter.  It isn't about intelligence or learning, its about its sensor suite and how well it can determin based upon its library. Algorithms. Output is based upon its input and that is gathered by a library. It will determine what, were and possibly how based upon certain inputs. So a robot jumps into a lake, it determines its in a lake based upon various parameters.  AI will be same everywhere - you can think of movies like terminator and signed, but that isn't real, and don't be for a long time or of at all.  They are machines. A robot won't go to Regina because it wanted to. It will go because in the end, it was programmed to.  There are some exceptions of course, like a self driving car learning from other drivers (suposedly) but it is still creating a model (within its library) based upon algorithms from what its sensor picked up, from other drivers.

    Buran was no different. Programming.

    For Russia, its entire structure is based upon scientific institutions that are ran by the universities. Universities are contracted out to companies for innovation. No different in US and Canada.

    Most of the US tech development derives from military projects that are sold to open bidders when commercialized for civil use.  Been that way for forever. Only becoming a recent thing in Russia.  The defense companies contract certain institutions and or universities for R&D


    OK thanks now I've heard how you define AI. There are different approaches on this but definition you provided is very narrow to me and is valid to very narrow applications.


    Machine Learning in shortest is a "data compression". When an algorithm can improveimprove itself based on what it can find in data. Library is only implementation of specific approach. First math, theorem. Then proving then implementation. Library is only the last part for easier reuse. There are many approaches in Data Science with regard to ML. This is not forum to discuss for example beauty of convolutional NN (like here http://ufldl.stanford.edu/tutorial/supervised/ConvolutionalNeuralNetwork/ ) or when is better to apply genetic algorithms' instead if Bayesian networks approach. But just to let you know my view on things.


    There is no "generic AI" or Strong AI yet. And won't be in foreseeable future. And this is very good. However applications like autonomous vehicles, investment strategies, chatbots, IT security or medicine AI is doing just fine. Since military applications is also important field (especially in connection with edge computing for missiles, drones) I am sure Russians will invest their resources here too. The question here is how good this will be returned on civilian market?

    To remind you: We discuss here Russian abilities to market AI.




    BTW you likely have never heard an oldjoke about Stalin's conversation with Kurchatov about strait between Canada and Mexico Smile
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:19 pm

    No, sorry, can't say I have heard the joke, but ill look it up.  Reason for my narrow viewpoint of it is that is what I have experienced and seen up front. I'm no programmer, but our programmers whom working on "our AI" (I don't and refuse to take credit cause these guys are far smarter than me and work harder, I just do tech analysts) give this broad viewpoint as a common method of teaching others. In the end, when failure happens, its based upon the code.  I know about their methods in ML and making the algorithms more compressed and efficient, but there a hint be any HAL (2001 space oddysee) either anytime soon or ever.  While we pride ourselves as humans to knowing all in the name of science, we are also extremely limited because of our inherent limitations. Hence why I said the computer will never have the same feelings as another may do to go to a certain destination.  When people at my workplace talk about this stuff, our engineers laugh and tells us to stop watching Dr.Who.  Our company is larger than Amazon, so I tend to believe these guys.

    And I understand what essence you are going with in this chat, about the use in commercialization.  Well, Russia cannot afford the same method US uses simply because, its costly.  Example is Tesla/space x.  Elon Musk got the technology from existing institutions and obtained subsidies upwards to $6B. That is a lot.of taxpayer money.  The only real method for Russia is to either get the defense industries more involved in civil development, along with Roscosmos and Rosatom, or give the tech away as susbsidies.  Currently. The structure I mentioned earlier is only one exists - public/private companies hires institutions to design the new technology and do the programming. Rarely do they do it themselves, costs too much.  Military industrial complex in Russia is the one advancing really fast in AI research and technology development.  But that is because the military does have the money and brains.  Yandex, mail.ru, etc also have their own AI development and tech programs but not as wealth generating as MiC can do. Rostec and rosatom are the only two entities I know of in Russia that not only is developing high technologies like that found in US, but are only ones outside the MiC who can afford it too. Simply because Rosatom is stupidly wealthy and Rostec has all the major institutions, fabrication plants and wealth as well under its belt.  Russia is going the same way South Korea did with its Samsung (Rostec).  I have my money bets on Rostec and Rosatom. Would love to see what the two can do if they combine their efforts and resources.

    As I mentioned before, Russia lacks big time in marketing. So even if they have a solid object or whatever to sell, it will never outdo the competition. Yotaphone was example. The Russia video game industry is another. Movies, etc etc etc. They just don't have the same reach as US does, and that had far more to do with banking than it does with innovation.  Yeah, China outpaces US in scientific research now. But they won't get same marketing reach for their inventions as a US company would.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:51 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Vann will shit his bed  lol1

    Russia Rolls Out Its Own VR Helmets

    https://sputniknews.com/science/201709111057289957-russia-virtual-reality-helmets/


    Company site:
    http://deusvr.ru/

    not sure about Vann and why Smile but to illustrate my point. How do you think this startup will develop?  

    Don't know, could go either way but they have product, they have distribution and are trying to get into military market (shocker right?... Laughing )

    Personally I am not that into VR (been there in early 90s, gimmick, nothing to write home about)

    Best thing to come of it is movie Lawnmower Man thumbsup
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    kvs

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  kvs on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:15 am

    AI will not be developed by the private sector. Anyone who thinks that private companies lead scientific innovation simply has no
    clue about reality. Just as in medicine, the pharma industry is a leech on the "blue sky" research done at universities and other
    publicly funded research institutions. Corporations are too busy spending billions on marketing and lobbying (e.g. the junkets for
    doctors to go to the Caribbean to some fake conference where they get propagandized to use the pharmaceutical the company
    supporting the junket wants). A favourite big pharama racket is to "redevelop" existing drugs and re-release them at a much
    higher price than the old version that does 99.9% of the same function.

    The above posts confirm the real deal in the private sector. That is, profits are paramount and blue sky research is of no interest
    to the management and the owners. It is not some accident that all the pro-business politicians always attack blue sky research
    as waste of tax money (but of course tax cuts for oil companies is just peachy and kosher). The people that run private corporations
    really believe the shit ideology they peddle. It's like all the libertarians and other "small government" true believers and disaster
    relief. They screech about socialism when it comes to government spending until the moment that life throws them a curve ball
    where they have to put their money where their stinking hypocrite mouths are. The automobile industry would still be selling
    carburetor gasoline V8 engines if not for oil costs going up. Exogenous stress brings about innovation. And these companies run
    to the government to subsidize their in-house research. Research is always treated as a money loss by corporate accountants.

    AI is nowhere near any level that is presented by sci-fi stories and movies. Fancy neural networks and pattern recognition are
    very far from self-awareness and consciousness. At this stage it looks like the latter are emergent effects of massive biological
    neural networks. We don't have any artificial neural networks that have billions of neurons. And any emergent higher level
    functionality from a hypothetical human device is not automatically guaranteed to be the real deal. Evolution over millions of years
    can't be replaced with some dart throwing human hacks. Reality has tuned emergent functionality. How will humans tune it
    when they don't even begin to understand it?
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:10 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    we discuss here Russian system not American. There is no need to praise or critique US way besides simply accepting truth:it works and generates innovations.
    US was mentioned just as a reference. My question how to improve way Russian startups can grow into large companies is still valid can you try to speculate how to do this?  My very subjective opinion is that in Russian economic bloc is somehow belief that mythical investors come and  share wealth to make Russian hi-tech grow.  I hope I am miserably wrong here


    You can't see your logical fallacy.

    You use the US financial system as a baseline, like something that axiomatically superior .

    My point is the US financial system doesn't work and dysfunctional, so using up the US start up financing as an example is like praising parts of the soviet economical planning.

    Copy the model of the US start up financing can be a recipe for disaster.

    The success of a few tech company contributed completely different reasons, that no one wants to implement.
    Like open, unrestricted trade flow, that destroyed the US economy : )
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:18 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:


    To remind you: We discuss here Russian abilities to market AI.


    To market t whom?

    The US running extreme level of trade deficit, so we can say based on the experience that the AI is not in high demand on the world market, at least not high enough to balance the trade.

    Additional, it is not capable to improve the productivity of the US : D


    Seriously, how much value can you attach to the this AI rubbish?
    IS the google results become more useful because they upgraded the algorithm to same "AI"?

    Don't think so, I still have to use the ebay/amazon to found goods to buy.

    The whole AI thing is a marketing trick.

    And finally: just because you works on a given field doesn't means that the given field is important. It means only you are important for yourself.
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:23 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:


    To remind you: We discuss here Russian abilities to market AI.



    The US running extreme level of trade deficit, so we can say based on the experience that the AI is not in high demand on the world market, at least not high enough to balance the trade.

    Additional, it is not capable to improve the productivity of the US : D



    it doesn't matter as long as Russia or China is paying for US debts buying securities. This even can grow more on behalf of lowering Russian pensions if you want.


    Singular_Transform wrote:
    To market t whom?

    To civilian markets? so far Russia was mildly speaking moderately successful in selling civilian products. Show me 5 Russian civilian brands recognizable on Hi Tech markets?


    Singular_Transform wrote: Don't think so, I still have to use the ebay/amazon to found goods to buy.
    Amazon spends in 2017 15bln$ on R&D and is US company. And you have just admitted buying there because is best. Thank you for confirming my thesis Smile



    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Seriously, how much value can you attach to the this AI rubbish?
    IS the google results become more useful because they upgraded the algorithm to  same "AI"?
    +
    The whole AI thing is a marketing trick.  And finally: just because you works on a given field doesn't means that the given field is important. It means only you are important for yourself.


    It is soo good that you know better how it goes then Putin. Try in 2018 your chances? let's see your knowledge and importance. You're 18+ right?
    and keep buying US stuff talking that Russia does not need hi tech.
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:29 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:

    You can't see your logical fallacy.

    You use the US financial system as a baseline, like something that axiomatically superior .

    My point is the US financial system doesn't work and dysfunctional, so using up the US start up financing as an example is like praising parts of the soviet economical planning.

    Copy the model of the US start up financing can be a recipe for disaster.

    The success of a few tech company contributed completely different reasons, that no one wants to implement.
    Like open, unrestricted trade flow, that destroyed the US economy : )

    My apologies I was writing to adult audience so far. This might be too hard for you. I never said US system is perfect or sustainable without external influx of wealth. It was built this way and nobody neither China or especially Russia cannot copy it. But US system works and will work as long as there is no alternative and US military / covert coups will keep world by the balls.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:31 am

    kvs wrote:AI will not be developed by the private sector.   Anyone who thinks that private companies lead scientific innovation simply has no
    clue about reality.  [] money loss by corporate accountants.

    []

    AI is nowhere near any level that is presented by sci-fi stories and movies.   Fancy neural networks and pattern recognition are
    very far from self-awareness and consciousness.     At this stage it looks like the latter are emergent effects of massive biological
    neural networks.    We don't have any artificial neural networks that have billions of neurons.    And any emergent higher level
    functionality from a hypothetical human device is not automatically guaranteed to be the real deal.   Evolution over millions of years
    can't be replaced with some dart throwing human hacks.    Reality has tuned emergent functionality.   How will humans tune it
    when they don't even begin to understand it?



    Interesting point of view. Personally I do not see problem in mixing private and university research programmes. Simply many of scientists also want to earn money and have their results tested in real market conditions. University research is correctly fostered by state. But in applied science must be a market factor included. Otherwise you just waste your research funds. At the end of the day corporations still pay taxes right?

    However regardless if you like it or not there is money to make, GDP to grow and people waiting for opportunities to grow business or get better job. In Russia is not the different then in other countries. The main question here is not even about AI. In general how to find resources for Russian startups to scale up and find markets? It is good that China is going towards more consumer based model thus giving potential space also to Russian companies. However if two compaies start with similar product in Russia and China. The Chinese one is likely got more money form stock exchange or corpo investor to company scaling up is faster. Faster growth faster to occupy niche...

    My biggest hope is that Stolypin's Club will have more to say after 2018 elections in terms on economy growth.







    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Vann will shit his bed  lol1

    Russia Rolls Out Its Own VR Helmets

    https://sputniknews.com/science/201709111057289957-russia-virtual-reality-helmets/


    Company site:
    http://deusvr.ru/

    not sure about Vann and why Smile but to illustrate my point. How do you think this startup will develop?  

    Don't know, could go either way but they have product, they have distribution and are trying to get into military market (shocker right?... Laughing )

    Personally I am not that into VR (been there in early 90s, gimmick, nothing to write home about)

    Best thing to come of it is movie Lawnmower Man thumbsup

    heh Lawnmower Man was soo long ago it does nto count Razz The fan is that military market is enough small to keep price up and only civilian one gives opportunity to grow comany into decent level.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:18 am

    miketheterrible wrote:No, sorry, can't say I have heard the joke, but ill look it up.  

    On comicstrip: Stalin with pipe looking on map where is water between Canada and Mexico. And answering to other dude with a scientist looks: so you say to name it Stalin's strait comrade Kurchatov? Smile



    miketheterrible wrote:
    And I understand what essence you are going with in this chat, about the use in commercialization.  Well, Russia cannot afford the same method US uses simply because, its costly.  Example is Tesla/space x.  Elon Musk got the technology from existing institutions and obtained subsidies upwards to $6B. That is a lot.of taxpayer money.  The only real method for Russia is to either get the defense industries more involved in civil development, along with Roscosmos and Rosatom, or give the tech away as susbsidies.  Currently. The structure I mentioned earlier is only one exists - public/private companies hires institutions to design the new technology and do the programming. Rarely do they do it themselves, costs too much.  Military industrial complex in Russia is the one advancing really fast in AI research and technology development.  But that is because the military does have the money and brains.  Yandex, mail.ru, etc also have their own AI development and tech programs but not as wealth generating as MiC can do. Rostec and rosatom are the only two entities I know of in Russia that not only is developing high technologies like that found in US, but are only ones outside the MiC who can afford it too. Simply because Rosatom is stupidly wealthy and Rostec has all the major institutions, fabrication plants and wealth as well under its belt.  Russia is going the same way South Korea did with its Samsung (Rostec).  I have my money bets on Rostec and Rosatom. Would love to see what the two can do if they combine their efforts and resources.

    As I mentioned before, Russia lacks big time in marketing. So even if they have a solid object or whatever to sell, it will never outdo the competition. Yotaphone was example. The Russia video game industry is another. Movies, etc etc etc. They just don't have the same reach as US does, and that had far more to do with banking than it does with innovation.  Yeah, China outpaces US in scientific research now. But they won't get same marketing reach for their inventions as a US company would.

    US if we like it or not spent decades to fix its status. No other country can simply repeat its model. With most of I you've written I can only subscribe. My concern is either my low level of understanding what is happening in Russian elites or simply they are going wrong path.

    I can see that CBR is going on strict low money output, politicians like mantra of shaman's are calling shots that sanctions will be decreasing, investors will come and everything is gonna be OK. No it is not. Sanctions are not because of anything. Ukraine was only pretext. Sanctions will likely increase Sad so Russia has to learn to live and thrive economically despite this.

    With current model I do not see it somehow. This requires internal source of investment. Cutting spending while reserves grow? especially when you talk about education and science? I hope I am wrong though.

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:45 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    ...


    Again, chain of logic: if you build your reasoning around that the US has a superior economical policy/financial sector, and it is the expected target for any country, then first you have to prove it.
    If the above statement is false, then all of your logic collapse.


    Simple quiz: if the IT/AI and so on so nice, why the US productivity ( output per worker ) stagnating?
    https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

    So, the whole start-up financing/AI/Amazon/Google can't increase the productivity of the US.

    The above diagram similar to the one that caused the fail of the CCCP.

    Actually, Russia shown three times higher productivity improvement compared to the US.

    About the amazon : C'mon, do you know the business model of the Amazon, or the price structure?
    If something then it is a prime example what is the issue with the US financial system.

    The amazon doing the ancient trick : if you willing to work with 0 profit then you can outsell any profit oriented competitor.
    The only part of that business that makes money is the AWS. : D And hint : NOT due to AI : ) but due to simple and ancient structured programming with "I will fire you if you don't use strict API" method . : )
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    kvs

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  kvs on Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:19 am

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/98184/

    New over 22% efficient solar panels manufactured by Rosnano owned Renova Group have been deployed in Altai.
    The combined power rating of the "farm" is 20 Megawatts:



    According to NATO politicians and their fake stream media flunkies Russia doesn't make anything and is decades if not centuries behind the
    precious west.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:04 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:

    /ciach/


    You're so sweet. First did you say Russia productivity is better then in US, Germany,Switzerland or Japan? right? or just growth is better but the base actually couple of times smaller?

    Did I say Russia should copy US model? is shouldn't and cannot. US is setting rules of game now for almost all world. As long as Chine builds parallel world in terms of financing markets and economy not much can change. Sudden implosion of US economy is also dangerous for Russia.


    Second where did I write Amazon/Google or other tech giants are making most of money form AI? They invest in new tech insane amounts of money. In large part in AI. Show me please 5 companies in Russia investing in R&D say 1 bln USD equivalent per year or more?

    Third. If Russia wants to compete it has to find own model for financing research and development activities, scaling startups and markets. This is huge challenge. Until now progress is not impressive but I hope this will change for better.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:21 am

    Russia should be doing what Russia is doing and continue to do so.

    Russia cannot and will not be able to be able to compete in the international market because the Russians are more or less blocked. They suck at marketing. They don't have the reach and will not due to influence, etc etc etc.

    US made goods are normally junk. Hence why Japan goods were considered the best for so long (while before hand, Japan goods were garbage while US was great). Difference is, all these nations that are either replacing US or have such a strong marketing structure and great business models are all US allied nations. China has only broken the record by simply making mega companies.

    Russia is doing the same with Rostec. But their products wont reach international civilian market like most of you may think. Kalashnikov makes civilian goods like clothing. You will not see Kalashnikov products such as clothing in the US or Canada, even if it is better quality than most of our Tshirts that are made by Bangladeshi children.

    Simple facts here. Nothing more.
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:35 am

    Uber yields Russian taxi business to Yandex in $3.7bn merger
    https://www.rt.com/business/396213-yandex-uber-taxi-merger/

    Uber will invest $225 million, while Yandex will invest $100 million in the joint venture, the companies said. The merged company will operate in Russia, as well as in Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan.

    The Uber business in Ukraine is not part of the deal, a representative of Uber stressed.

    Both mobile applications will still be available. 59.3 percent of the company will belong to Yandex, 36.6 percent to Uber, and 4.1 percent to the employees of the new business.

    Tigran Khudaverdyan, head of Yandex.Taxi in Russia will become CEO of the joint enterprise. Together, the two firms handle 35 million rides a month.

    The new company, which has not yet been officially named, “will have the right to use Yandex.Taxi and Uber brands in the region,” the companies said.

    Well autonomous vehicles form Yandex say hello here Smile

    Putin in Yandex: talking to Alisa and watching autonomous vehicle
    https://ria.ru/photolents/20170921/1505265399.html
    President of Russia Vladimir Putin on Thursday visited the Moscow office of the company "Yandex". Communication of the head of state with the employees of the search engine and with the voice assistant "Alisa" - in photographic tape Ria.ru.

    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/photolents/20170921/1505265399.html





    kvs wrote:https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/98184/

    New over 22% efficient solar panels manufactured by Rosnano owned Renova Group have been deployed in Altai.
    The combined power rating of the "farm" is 20 Megawatts:



    According to NATO politicians and their fake stream media flunkies Russia doesn't make anything and is decades if not centuries behind the
    precious west.    

    even if this is form Vekselberg is still the good news Smile

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

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