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    Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:14 am

    engineers´ blog:
    http://www.3e-club.ru/view_full.php?%20id=27&name=robotics_in_russia

    In total, the Soviet Union, more than 100 thousand. Industrial robotics units were produced. They replaced the more than one million workers. The most striking thing is that these 100 thousand robots disappeared from 1992 to 1994 completely. The question is whether we should now restore industrial robotics? Of course, it is necessary.


    Flanky wrote:Well i was in shock to find that we here in Slovakia had during communist times industrial robots that were pretty much on pair with current western technology. It was just that because of the focus of giving jobs to people first and foremost that they were not as much utilized. But in current Russia as much as i hate to admit they lack the industrial robotics and automation - sure there are efforst to catch.

    Simple in USSR there were pretty well developed industrial robotics. Robotics does not cause unemployment!!! replaces low skilled jobs with highly skilled ones. There wa salso well developed machine building and aerospace industries. All was destroyed on purpose by U$ after Soviet Union was sold by Gorbi&co

    Russia was to be assume role of raw materials colonial appendix to west. Russia by criminal oligarch clans. Well Putin tries to change that, As long as CBR, Shuvalobv, Chubais, Medved and Co will be  kudrining not so good outlook tho.

    This waiting for mythical infestors who do what? develop hi tech? bwahahahah this is good for low paid jobs as  in eastern europe. where you have their own tech companies on their own? I  mean large ones? none


    BTW first Soviet Ir was bult in 1969...universal was called afaik Smile

    http://statehistory.ru/4498/Istoriya-sovetskoy-robototekhniki/





    sepheronx wrote:They already produce consumer products.  They already produce various robotics, etc etc etc.  It is pointless to discuss this because Russia wont go into replacing everyone with such tools because then it defeats the purpose of the economy.  Russia cannot afford to have a high unemployment.  At that, when people are left without a job thanks to manufacturing jobs loss, then only two other industries survive with people - service jobs and logistical (and even logistical is moving towards robotics as well).  Which means that Service jobs are the end result and what kind are those jobs? Mostly fast food and are part time (usually) and very low pay.

    A lot of these people who propose idea of robotics are the CEO's and holders of the companies.  Because they want to maximize profit under their own rule.  But eventually, when no one has jobs, no one can purchase these goods.  The people in the end, end up as welfare queens and it will be more of a burden on the economy than benefit.  Only people who will benefit from it are the wealthy, till their businesses go under.

    Using robotics for instance to assist (not replace) people at the job to increase accuracy in terms of QC, then I support it.  Outside of that, no.



    so USSR was investing in robotics to produce jobles? nope robots take over simple, dirty and repeatable jobs leaving demand for qualified technicians and engineers. A man cannot do for 12 hours better job in welding then robot,  or moving metal parts between machines.

    Problem that in Russia for couple of next years numbers of qualified workforce will be dramatic low. Russia needs more workforce but qualified. Who´s gonna work in hi-tech? janitors from Uzbekistan? This sounds cruel but attracting engineers from other countries like U-crying or Vietnam would be a good idea.

    kvs
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  kvs on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:52 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    kvs wrote:Assembly line robots are nothing special.   They are a simple robot type.   The real technological challenge is to build
    replacements for soldiers and various kinds of machinery that requires human operators but is limited by them and is dangerous.
    For example, a mission to Mars could be conducted with robots who would deploy infrastructure for humans to travel later.
    Artificial intelligence and robotic components (legs, hands) that are on a much higher level than any assembly line robot are
    required.  

    Replacing workers in manufacturing is not smart without equally paying replacement jobs.   Automation is a buzzword designed
    to have people focus on the wrong thing.   Much like the buzzword globalization.   At the end of the day people just get poor.

    That´s why Soviet Union was heavily investing in industrial robotics? Russia has too low number of qualified workers. Besides robots can do wokr beter faster and do not strike requesting hollidays and pay rises Smile

    If you believe its BS ask yourself why Russians buy Japanese and German cars or electronics - in great deal assembled by robots?

    You provided really poor examples to back up your beliefs. Japan and Germany require massive exports to compensate for the lack of
    domestic demand. For them automation is a "no brainer" since they don't need to worry about domestic unemployment in these industries
    ultimately killing demand for the cars produced. It is nonsensical for every country on the planet to export cars to other countries. Japan
    and Germany have specialized to service the global economy. Russia does not need to replace them in this role.

    You missed the part in my post about replacement jobs to maintain demand. Germany and Japan use their vast export earnings to
    "trickle down" to the rest of the economy and create jobs that more than compensate for those not needed for automated production
    of cars and trucks. Clearly Russia can't bet its GDP on this model. Various "experts" bitch that Russia relies too much on oil exports.
    The exact same logic applies to car and truck exports. Depending on exports to maintain your GDP is dicey. Russia and China
    are big enough to rely on domestic demand.

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:36 am

    [quote="kvs"]
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    That´s why Soviet Union was heavily investing in industrial robotics? Russia has too low number of qualified workers. Besides robots can do wokr beter faster and do not strike requesting hollidays and pay rises Smile

    If you believe its BS ask yourself why Russians buy Japanese and German cars or electronics - in great deal assembled by robots?



    kvs wrote:
    You provided really poor examples to back up your beliefs.   Japan and Germany require massive exports to compensate for the lack of domestic demand.  

    ekhm lack of domestic demand? do you have numbers? I´d say internal demand in Germany is higher in terms of money than in Russia for example...


    kvs wrote:
    For them automation is a "no brainer" since they don't need to worry about domestic unemployment in these industries
    ultimately killing demand for the cars produced.  It is nonsensical for every country on the planet to export cars to other countries.   Japan and Germany have specialized to service the global economy.   Russia does not need to replace them in this role.


    You do not get my idea, reread pls. Soviet Union built about 100,000 Industrial robots. Was there any unemployment?
    First of all robots take over low paid, assembly jobs that are repeatable or dangerous (painting, welding). They have no match in assembly precision of electronics. If you give up your industry is more and more backward. There is nothing wrong with service economy as log as you know how to manufacture.


    Russia does not need to replace but like Korea can compete. Otherwise you resign from whole industry and related developments. Show me any industrial country which is not producing own cars? Maybe Canada but nobody say it is industrialized country just commodity appendix.


    kvs wrote:
    You missed the part in my post about replacement jobs to maintain demand.   Germany and Japan use their vast export earnings to
    "trickle down" to the rest of the economy and create jobs that more than compensate for those not needed for automated production
    of cars and trucks.   Clearly Russia can't bet its GDP on this model.   Various "experts" bitch that Russia relies too much on oil exports.
    The exact same logic applies to car and truck exports.   Depending on exports to maintain your GDP is dicey.   Russia and China
    are big enough to rely on domestic demand.

    ok what is your recipe for Russian economy? no automation?

    BTW Russian market is not big enough to make large scale production profitable. thet´s why you do not get Russian TV sets or PCs unless ordered by govt. But EACU with Iran, Vietnam can be close to this. india and China would also be nice to create a market or half of world population.





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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:24 am

    [size=18[ In Russia in 2035 will implement teleportation [/size]  Shocked


    The Agency for strategic initiatives (ASI) has prepared a program that by 2035 the country could receive
    Russian programming language ,
    secure quantum communication
    and even the ability to travel through time and space teleportation ( WTF journo misse something?

    These developments provided the "National technology initiative", and there is nothing supernatural. For example, Chinese scientists have dealt with problems of teleportation over long distances.
    Funding is only one of the directions of the road map for the next three years is estimated at 11 billion rubles, including private investment, writes the newspaper "Kommersant". The purpose of the implementation of the road map specified, in particular, the reduction in economic damage from cyber crime in Russia from 0.1% of GDP 0.05% of GDP by 2035.


    https://rg.ru/2016/06/22/v-rossii-k-2035-godu-vnedriat-teleportaciiu.html


    In the "roadmap" also includes the development of robots, smart buildings, medical implants, drones and cars. During 2018-2025 years in a number of regions, as planned by the ASI, will appear mobile infrastructure of the 5G standard will begin to unfold a single network of centres for the protection from cyber threats for civil use (the number of cyber attacks on government online resources in 2015 exceeded 70 million), will be implemented the first projects for cyber-physical systems and Autonomous vehicles.

    The ASI is also counting on the emergence of Russian national biometric framework for authentication and digital signatures with biometric activation.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:16 am

    @Gunship

    Regarding getting robotics to do work.  If jobs are lost, theoretically, people will not be eager to look for jobs or increase their family in terms of more children due to a fear of the future in terms of lack of jobs.  Why Russia has lower unemployment is because there is lots of jobs that need to be done that otherwise robotics would take over and more jobs are lost.  In the US, the unofficial unemployment rate is something around 25% or higher, and the biggest sector to US economy is the service sector.  A lot of the service sector jobs are low paid jobs like McDonalds or Call center or so on so on.  If those jobs are then taken over by robots, then unemployment rate will shoot up even higher.  In order to curb demographic issues in Russia is to have jobs, and somewhat decent paying ones too (what is important is if people can get enough to pay for rent, food and utilities while still having a savings).  If jobs are lost, then so is consumer demand.  Consumer demand drops, so does Russia's GDP.  Believe it or not, the largest contributions to Russia's GDP is domestic consumer demand.  The biggest hit to Russia's economy last year and so far this year is purely in the consumer market.  Automarket has dropped considerably, same with purchases in new homes (16%), purchases in food has dropped (well, this is in terms of overall how much is in return from the supermarkets when they sell produce, so a lot of it may have to do with the low prices in terms of sales and bulk).  If a lot of jobs are replaced with robotics, the only people who actually gain from that are the wealthy people, and not the workers.  At one point, Henry Ford knew that he had to have workers in his plants with decent wages because a large contributor to the sale of Ford automobiles are the employees themselves.

    If people don't work = no money to spend = GDP decline.  When that happens, people look to export in order to increase GDP numbers.  Then that becomes entirely reliant on other people.  There is a fine line between replacing workforce and using robotics of where they may be needed.  And the reason why Soviet Union didn't have unemployment is because they hid it.  They would get people jobs where they may not do anything period.  And everyone was paid the same or similar thus a person sweeping the streets will make money doing that just because government.  But these days, it is a whole lot different.  It is a market economy.  And thus they wont hire people for the sake of hiring.  In that case, it would essentially move back to what it was under the Soviet Union - Central controlled economy.  That isn't exactly what most want.  They want strong government control as per the Levada Center, but that is only half of the respondents.

    Only reason why Germany may seem as a bigger consumer, is because they have more money theoretically per person to spend on goods.  But as well, cost of goods are also high in Germany compared to Russia and thus it is massive inflation of numbers.  But overall, Russia has quite a bit higher population so that is the larger market.  Much like India, China, Brazil, USA, Indonesia, etc.

    Edit: Regarding the teleportation thing, best post I read:

    >*logs onto 4chin*
    >"haha Putin is such a faggot!"
    >Vladiport appears behind you
    >Putin emerges from an warp hole
    >"Чтo ты cкaзaл oбo мнe, ты, мaлeнькaя cyкa?"
    >karate kicks your neck off
    >"Hичeгo личнoгo, мaлыш."
    >thousands of Russians teleport to off-license shops to steal vodka and teleport back to Russia.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:37 pm

    By teleportation they mean quantum entanglement in the form of quantum based communications. Teleporting data via quantum entanglement.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_trafo on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:05 pm

    There is no such a thing like "robot takeaway the job of humans".

    The robot is nothing else just a new kind of automated machine, that we are using for milenias.

    It is automating certain human jobs, and (good case) increasing the productivity, and that is increase the level of living, if there is high demand for workers.

    Example if you use more automatization / better work organisation to make more cars, then you have more person to make say aur conditioners, amusment parks or space rockets.Or aircraft carriers.

    kvs
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  kvs on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:06 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:There is no such a thing like "robot takeaway the job of humans".

    The robot is nothing else just a new kind of automated machine, that we are using for milenias.

    It is automating certain human jobs, and (good case) increasing the productivity, and that is increase the level of living, if there is high demand for workers.

    Example if you use more automatization / better work organisation to make more cars, then you have more person to make say aur conditioners, amusment parks or space rockets.Or aircraft carriers.

    Baloney of the smelliest sort. The only way that automation works without snuffing out the workforce is because of global
    trade. Lost jobs from automation are replaced with service sector or other jobs as trickle down from the corporate profits
    coming from export of goods produced on automated assembly lines. Without the global market income, as in an economy that
    does not export, automation would reduce the workforce and the consumer demand for goods and shrink the GDP.

    There is lots of lying about the nature of the US economy. It has been able to offshore its manufacturing because it is home base
    to the world's largest transnationals. The GDP is not the GNP. The GDP counts the extra-territorial economic footprint of a globally
    integrated economy. The GNP only counts the economy withing state boundaries. They stopped using the GNP for a reason.
    As far as the US GDP is concerned those offshored manufacturing jobs do not make any difference since the profits still come
    home to the USA and the USA has global demand for its goods and services and not just domestic. The US GDP wins if it
    gets more than 1 Chinese or Indian middle/upper class consumer for every domestic consumer that is lost.

    Productivity increases only make sense if there is enough consumer demand. It is just retarded to produce more than the
    market can absorb. This would be the generation of a product glut and a collapse in product prices and ultimately bankruptcy.
    But here we have a poster who fervently believes that rising productivity is some sort of economic panacea all on its own.
    Globalization allows productivity increases to be capitalized on. The growing number of developing world consumers enable
    productivity increases (e.g. automation) from key global economies that can service their demand. In the long run, however,
    this productivity will become excess if the developing world localizes production and services the demand of its own consumers.

    In the case of global exporters, automation allows them to compensate for the lack of domestic workers. But another model
    is to offshore production to leverage cheap labour. What you see in the case of the developed economies is a mixture of both.
    But the clueless see only the automation and think that the whole economy can be automated away, including the service sector.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:59 am

    kvs wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:There is no such a thing like "robot takeaway the job of humans".

    The robot is nothing else just a new kind of automated machine, that we are using for milenias.

    It is automating certain human jobs, and (good case) increasing the productivity, and that is increase the level of living, if there is high demand for workers.

    Example if you use more automatization / better work organisation to make more cars, then you have more person to make say aur conditioners, amusment parks or space rockets.Or aircraft carriers.

    Baloney of the smelliest sort. The only way that automation works without snuffing out the workforce is because of global
    trade. Lost jobs from automation are replaced with service sector or other jobs as trickle down from the corporate profits
    coming from export of goods produced on automated assembly lines. Without the global market income, as in an economy that
    does not export, automation would reduce the workforce and the consumer demand for goods and shrink the GDP.

    There is lots of lying about the nature of the US economy. It has been able to offshore its manufacturing because it is home base
    to the world's largest transnationals. The GDP is not the GNP. The GDP counts the extra-territorial economic footprint of a globally
    integrated economy. The GNP only counts the economy withing state boundaries. They stopped using the GNP for a reason.
    As far as the US GDP is concerned those offshored manufacturing jobs do not make any difference since the profits still come
    home to the USA and the USA has global demand for its goods and services and not just domestic. The US GDP wins if it
    gets more than 1 Chinese or Indian middle/upper class consumer for every domestic consumer that is lost.

    Productivity increases only make sense if there is enough consumer demand. It is just retarded to produce more than the
    market can absorb. This would be the generation of a product glut and a collapse in product prices and ultimately bankruptcy.
    But here we have a poster who fervently believes that rising productivity is some sort of economic panacea all on its own.
    Globalization allows productivity increases to be capitalized on. The growing number of developing world consumers enable
    productivity increases (e.g. automation) from key global economies that can service their demand. In the long run, however,
    this productivity will become excess if the developing world localizes production and services the demand of its own consumers.

    In the case of global exporters, automation allows them to compensate for the lack of domestic workers. But another model
    is to offshore production to leverage cheap labour. What you see in the case of the developed economies is a mixture of both.
    But the clueless see only the automation and think that the whole economy can be automated away, including the service sector.

    The economical/industrial history doesn't show that.

    start from begining.

    If we accept that the "robotics" is nothing else just another type of automation, then all that happens now is the repetation of the industrial revolution thing that happens since the 19th century.

    Robot cost money, money nothing else just the representative of human work.
    Money is a method to allocate the human capital in a society.

    If the human cost 100 unit for a job, and a robot cost 50 unit, then you have two outcome:
    1. the business will have 50 unit more than before - Chinese , USSR , USA from 1973 case.Level of living stagnate, oligarch class generated
    2. Due to the high competition for the workforce, the business forced to do this step to stay competitive, and be capabel to offer for the workforce higher sallary.Economical efficiency growing, level of livigin growing.US between 1800-1973, Russia 1998-2014(maybe now) , germany 1930-1990, western EU 1950-2004.

    In the second case the workers will spend the money for new consumption items.The competition for the consumers money will increase the overal economical efficiency.


    Example now everyone implementing robots, but the OVERAL economical efficiency doesn't growing.Simply because the reason of automatisation is not to be able to compete for the workforce,and use the work more efficiently, but to increase the corporate profit.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:05 am

    Bingo! I agree with you.

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:00 am

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Example now everyone implementing robots, but the OVERAL economical efficiency doesn't growing.Simply because the reason of automatisation is not to be able to compete for the workforce,and use the work more efficiently, but to increase the corporate profit.

    Can you tell me about overall efficiency? ehkm I am not sure if I follow your  reasoning. Should we still use abacus - more people would find work then right? computers, clouds technology make no workplaces but ...is this real?

    IR industry exists in countries like Germany, Sweden/Switzerland or lately China is installed  1/3 of IRs in the world...surely too little Chinese are ready to work? or Level of living in Switzerland/Sweden/Germany is lover then in countries w/o automation like Philippines or Honduras?

    IR is not all in one but  a component of whole manufacturing automation. IRs do work people cannot do enough good  (dangerous, heavy ...chemicals, or precision) but you then need more programmers,  mechanical, electrical, mechatronics, sensor engineers instead of  simple industrial work (vide Chaplin in  modern times).



    sepheronx wrote:@Gunship

    Regarding getting robotics to do work.  If jobs are lost, theoretically, people will not be eager to look for jobs or increase their family in terms of more children due to a fear of the future in terms of lack of jobs.  
    +

    If people don't work = no money to spend = GDP decline.


    Well that´s true but automation has nothing to do with jobless rate. Bulgaria/Rumania/Baltics high jobless rates lots of population out for work. Germany or Sweden or better South Korea has highest level or Ir saturation (about 500 for 10,000 employees vs Russia like 7-8 or so). Do you suggest there is highe level of unemployment in Germany because of automation than in Bulgaria?

    Russians need decnet paid jobs but simple work will not and cannot be paid ransomly. You need to do something other dont or more efficient. Janitors, simple assembly workers will lose their jobs but engineers, technicals will be on demand...
    We like or not industry must automate. Some people will loose their jobs other will be searched...the task for govt is to help people to re-train to meet market demand to me.

    Besides Russia has acute shortage of skilled workforce now, not automating will make things even worse.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:31 am

    With dollar idea is good but rushings without first change worlds way of fiances work might not to be best idea.


    Zyuganov urged to protect themselves from the dictates of the dollar


    ROZHDESTVENO (Moscow oblast), 25 Jun — RIA Novosti. Communist party leader Gennady Zyuganov in the pre-election Congress of his party said about hard links of the Russian financial system "with the centers of world capitalism," and urged to establish state control over the banking system and currency operations.

    At Saturday's Congress of the Communist party should adopt a platform and nominate candidates to the Duma.
    "Today, the financial economic system of Russia is rigidly connected to the centers of world capitalism. The real independence of the country is missing. It is time to restore our economic sovereignty, to protect themselves from the dictates of the dollar," — said Zyuganov at a pre-election Congress.
    In his opinion, the Bank of Russia should withdraw from the influence of the Federal reserve system of the United States. "He must serve the cause of development of the national economy and social sphere", — said Zyuganov.
    "State control over the banking system and currency operations will allow the wild to stop the outflow of capital abroad," he added.


    РИА Новости http://ria.ru/economy/20160625/1451576927.html#ixzz4CdIwErah





    Zyuganov has declared readiness to solve the issue of the withdrawal of Russia from the WTO


    http://ria.ru/economy/20160625/1451576927.html

    ROZHDESTVENO (Moscow oblast), 25 Jun — RIA Novosti. Communist party leader Gennady Zyuganov on the campaign the Congress has declared readiness to solve the issue of Russia's withdrawal from world trade organization.


    At Saturday's Congress of the Communist party should adopt a platform and nominate candidates to the Duma.
    "We are ready to solve the issue of withdrawal of Russia from the WTO. For four years in her part of the country's budget bled 800 billion rubles," — said Zyuganov at a pre-election Congress. He said that indirect losses of Russia from WTO membership is estimated at 4 trillion rubles and Russia, such a burden is not necessary."
    Russia joined the WTO in 2012 after 18 years of negotiations.



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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:40 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/productivity
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/productivity

    See the proble?

    There is the calculation method.It showing the overal productivity (efficiency) of the economy.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:13 am

    Singular_trafo wrote:

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/productivity
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/productivity

    See the proble?

    There is the calculation method.It showing the overal productivity (efficiency) of the economy.

    1) Counting or efficiency

    quoting your link:
    In the United States, the productivity of nonfarm workers is measured as the output of goods and services per hour worked. Labor productivity is calculated by dividing an index of real output by an index of hours worked of all persons, including employees, proprietors, and unpaid family workers.

    i might be wrong but Mexicans cross the border, more mormons will be born, bread prices drop and you have low productivity ...

    2) automation vs money redistribution

    EUro? so productivity in Germany ( 2 x times better IR saturation) is actually better...

    Automation is condition sin qua non any industry competitiveness. US is taking loads of immigrants every year what has impact on productivity.   Important feature in EU productivity is that still in EU (especially Germany) socialist traditions ar every strong and structure of education is not bad either. So not automation is key but way how money are redistributed in economy.


    Soviet Union is very good example of this. Russia needs automation, much much more than now. Otherwise there is too little qualified  workers and well paid jobs from one side and no competitiveness of products form the other.

    3) New Technological Era

    We can agree that there were many technological breakthroughs  in the past:  steel, electricity, internal combustion engine, electronics...every breakthrough was jump in efficiency...now i believe we ar eon verge on new one. If you do not automate you share Bangladesh style economy soon...no automation but sewing pants for west increases output right? nothing before now 100,000 pants per month?

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  kvs on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:28 pm

    Under equilibrium supply = demand. These days it not common to fill warehouses full of goods and production is just in time (JIT).

    So productivity = consumption (goods or services per hour).

    If America has such a great productivity then it must be because it has a great consumption. And the consumption is not
    restricted to domestic consumers.

    Increasing productivity without an increase in consumption is retarded. It results in creation of a glut and drop in price.
    Note that automation is not what gives consumers low prices. Cars aren't cheap and have not gotten cheaper over the
    last 50 years even though they production lines have become highly automated. Low prices apply to various consumer
    goods such as pots, blenders, TVs which are due to offshoring of production to sweatshops like China, Bangladesh, India, etc.

    https://hbr.org/2010/05/the-productivity-myth-2

    http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/janfeb-2012/the-myth-of-american-productivity-2/

    But rather than viewing the decline of farming jobs as a tragedy, economists almost invariably count agriculture as a shining American success—the triumph of productivity. And why not? A handful of farmers using GPS-equipped combines and sophisticated moisture sensors can grow far more food than the population of an entire rural county in 1939. Food has become so plentiful and cheap in the United States that it has been blamed for the increase in obesity. And agricultural products have become one of the country’s chief exports, totaling more than $115 billion in 2010.

    There are two big problems with this theory, however. One is that the analogy between agriculture and manufacturing is profoundly misleading. The gains in agricultural productivity that transformed this country in the twentieth century are fundamentally different from the gains in manufacturing and distributive productivity we are seeing today. The other, related problem is that our bullish measures of productivity suffer from an enormous statistical blind spot. Rather than wait for rising productivity to save the day—and relying on economic policies that are essentially complacent—the U.S. needs to adopt drastic measures if it wants to keep living standards from falling.

    In a very real sense, agricultural productivity is intrinsically rooted in American soil. Yes, the tractor might be imported from Japan. But a farmer cannot plant crops in Iowa and then outsource the harvesting to Vietnam. Pesticides have to be sprayed on American bugs, and crops have to be irrigated with American water. Most of the value created by agriculture is made in America.

    By contrast, most manufactured goods these days are the product of global supply chains, which may include multiple countries and border crossings. Your smartphone, for example, is assembled from components that were manufactured all over the world. On a less high-tech note, the cedar hangers that organically keep your suits and dresses free of pests may be made of wood grown in the U.S., shipped to China for manufacture, and then shipped back to the U.S. again.

    But here’s the rub: both of these corporate strategies— domestic productivity improvements and global supply chain management—show up as productivity gains in U.S. economic records. When federal statisticians calculate the nation’s economic output, what they are actually measuring is domestic “value added”—the dollar value of all sales minus the dollar value of all imports. “Productivity” is then calculated by dividing the quantity of value added by the number of American workers. American workers, however, often have little to do with the gains in productivity attributed to them. For instance, if Company A saves $250,000 simply by switching from a Japanese sprocket supplier to a much cheaper Chinese sprocket supplier, that change shows up as an increase in American productivity—just as if the company had saved $250,000 by making its warehouse operation in Chicago more efficient.

    So US productivity figures are basically crap. The failure of the farm analogy is that farmers moved to the cities and got jobs as
    manufacturing workers and workers in sectors which result from manufacturing (multiplier effect jobs) such as cafeterias, sales clerks, etc.
    Today the US is losing the manufacturing job "spine" of its economy and using trickle down from "super productive" exports and offshore
    transnational profits to prop up the service sector. It is true that the US retains a lot of engineering and management jobs but the
    number of such jobs is not sufficient to replace the manufacturing jobs lost by definition. The only way to increase these jobs
    is through globalization and the hope that the world essentially transfers these types of jobs to the US and engages in the manufacturing
    jobs instead. The success of this globalization and offshoring for the US population can be summarized by this graph:



    Singular_trafo
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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:53 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/productivity
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/productivity

    See the proble?

    There is the calculation method.It showing the overal productivity (efficiency) of the economy.

    1) Counting or efficiency

    quoting your link:
    In the United States, the productivity of nonfarm workers is measured as the output of goods and services per hour worked. Labor productivity is calculated by dividing an index of real output by an index of hours worked of all persons, including employees, proprietors, and unpaid family workers.

    i might be wrong but Mexicans cross the border, more mormons will be born, bread prices drop and you have low productivity ...

    2) automation vs money redistribution

    EUro? so productivity in Germany ( 2 x times better IR saturation) is actually better...

    Automation is condition sin qua non any industry competitiveness. US is taking loads of immigrants every year what has impact on productivity.   Important feature in EU productivity is that still in EU (especially Germany) socialist traditions ar every strong and structure of education is not bad either. So not automation is key but way how money are redistributed in economy.


    Soviet Union is very good example of this. Russia needs automation, much much more than now. Otherwise there is too little qualified  workers and well paid jobs from one side and no competitiveness of products form the other.

    3) New Technological Era

    We can agree that there were many technological breakthroughs  in the past:  steel, electricity, internal combustion engine, electronics...every breakthrough was jump in efficiency...now i believe we ar eon verge on new one. If you do not automate you share Bangladesh style economy soon...no automation but sewing pants for west increases output right? nothing before now 100,000 pants per month?

    Productivity is NOT automation.
    It means how many hours you need to manufacture a given product.You can improve it by buying macbines , and that is nothing else just buying destilated human work,or you can make your process more efficient.

    They using the worked hours as base line.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:59 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Productivity is NOT automation.
    It means how many hours you need to manufacture a given product.You can improve it by buying macbines , and that is nothing else just buying destilated human work,or you can make your process more efficient.

    They using the worked hours as base line.

    Productivity is not automation I never claimed this. Overall productivity is avg or florists, unqualified semi-legal immigrants and sometime engineers. It is hard to grow productivity indefinitely. It gets saturated after some time till next technical breakthrough comes.

    Automation helps to make things faster, better and cheaper. Many things cannot be achieved without (like precision). Economy efficiency defined without output of florists or low qualified services workforce would be much better right?

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:02 pm

    better late then never Smile

    "United Russia" considers that it is necessary to reduce the impact of the dollar and the Euro in Russia

    MOSCOW, June 26 — RIA Novosti. The party "United Russia" believes that it is important, in addition to increasing the confidence in the national currency, decrease in a country the influence of the dollar and the Euro, follows from the materials accompanying the pre-election United Russia Congress in Moscow.

    "An important condition for the credibility of the Russian ruble, along with low inflation - reducing impact of foreign currencies, including the dollar and the Euro", — the document says.
    "Party "United Russia" considers it important to provide a reduction of the interest of Russian citizens and enterprises to use foreign currency in domestic economic activities on the territory of Russia", — added in the materials.
    Further actions of the party, according to the document, the development and adoption of measures in order to move on to the national currency became more profitable, and to use it more safely and securely.

    The second and the last before the election the party Congress of "United Russia" started in the Moscow Manege.
    The Congress will last two days, the members of the party approved its election program, and also decide who will head the list in the Duma elections. United Russia will, in particular, to approve the lists of candidates in single-mandate candidates and regional lists of candidates, which, with the support of the party will go to the Duma elections.

    http://ria.ru/economy/20160626/1452340886.html




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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  kvs on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:33 pm

    Proof by assertion. What a joke.

    Productivity increases if the number of workers required to make the product decreases. Ergo productivity is increased
    by automation. Labour costs are the primary cost in most industries so automation is very appealing to the management.

    http://tompeters.com/columns/nix-the-quick-fix/

    http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/31/5-things-matt-yglesias-gets-wrong-about-automation/

    http://andrewmcafee.org/2013/01/mcafee-technological-unemployment-us-manufacturing-econom/

    http://www.thebrokeronline.eu/Articles/Better-skills-will-not-save-middle-class-jobs-from-automation

    Prosperity through automation is a technotopian myth. In the real world trickle down economics is not
    acting to redistribute the money flow to optimize high paying jobs for the masses. Automation is a racket
    designed to make the 1% richer.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:48 pm

    kvs wrote:Proof by assertion.  What a joke.

    []

    Prosperity through automation is a technotopian myth.  In the real world trickle down economics is not
    acting to redistribute the money flow to optimize high paying jobs for the masses.  Automation is a racket
    designed to make the 1% richer.  

    Wealth distribution has little to do with automation. In 90s there was no automation in Russia but oligarchs were doing pretty well. Soviet Union was working on automating industry pretty hard. Soviet remains were happily killed by US "curators" who btw helped write Russia constitution with all intl law and imf crap...

    Original discussion AFAIK was about Russia and IRs. Tell me what Russia shall do about industrial automation? I m curious what´s your opinion...

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:39 am

    Automaton and other scientific developments is neccessary for the social development as it will pave way for the rise of modern working class, lead by scientists and engineers, rather than scumbags like Georg Soros.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:39 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Automaton and other scientific developments is neccessary for the social development as it will pave way for the rise of modern working class, lead by scientists and engineers, rather than scumbags like Georg Soros.

    No it wont. George Soros makes money from playing the stock markets. It will just pave way for even more of these type of people. And it will break the current system worldwide as people without jobs cannot pay for anything, period. Take a look at Scotland and you got yourself a living example. Move jobs elsewhere (like automation more or less) and average person relies upon hand outs from government to drink all day at the local tavern. That is pretty damn depressing. Automation will just make rich people more rich temporary till the system collapses.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  Singular_trafo on Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:55 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Productivity is NOT automation.
    It means how many hours you need to manufacture a given product.You can improve it by buying macbines , and that is nothing else just buying destilated human work,or you can make your process more efficient.

    They using the worked hours as base line.

    Productivity is not automation I never claimed this. Overall productivity is avg or florists, unqualified semi-legal immigrants and sometime engineers. It is hard to grow productivity indefinitely. It gets saturated after some time till next technical breakthrough comes.

    Automation helps to make things faster, better and cheaper. Many things cannot be achieved without (like precision). Economy efficiency defined without output of florists or low qualified services workforce would be much better right?

    NOT technical breakthrough.
    Example the internet has less effect on the productivity than the sewing machine, or the washing machine.
    The productivity can be improved by many way.Example if you found out how to run the Kadia gun barrel honing machine with 5% higher OEE, then the overal productivity will increase,because the operator on the machine will have less waiting time for the machine setter/maitnanance techinsan.
    Or you can found out how to run the honing machine AND the rifling or hammer forging machine.
    In that case the operator who unload/load the rotary honing machine and checking with airgauge the geometry of the barrel will do the same fo rthe hammer forging machine ,and if before there was two person for two machine then the productivity improved dramaticaly for the area.


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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:57 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    NOT technical breakthrough.

    Of course we might disagree on if Kondratiev waves are good or bad theory but i am not economist focusing on this area are you? otherwise we need just to learn agree to disagree Smile

    methinks that technology does improve efficiency but at some growth of time efficiency growth gets saturated. Impossible to improve something endlessly. But new breakthrough technologies do disrupt existing paradigm of industry and make next jump in efficiency.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondratiev_wave


    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Example the internet has less effect on the productivity than the sewing machine, or the washing machine.

    i am just curious how did you measure it? if it is a feeling then we can discuss feelings not numbers right?



    Singular_trafo wrote:
    The productivity can be improved by many way.Example if you found out how to run the Kadia gun barrel honing machine with 5% higher OEE, then the  overal productivity will increase,because the operator on the machine will have less waiting time for the machine setter/maitnanance techinsan.
    Or you can found out how to run the honing machine AND the rifling or hammer forging machine.
    In that case the operator who unload/load the rotary honing machine and checking with airgauge the geometry of the barrel will do the same fo rthe hammer forging machine ,and if before there was two person for two machine then the productivity improved dramaticaly for the area.

    oh honey Smile I have an impression, maybe quite wrong one, you mix technological breakthrough with process engineering.

    You can use notebook to hammer nails or networked company to browse facebook all day long but this is not best way to prove technological progress is not contributing to overall efficiency.

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    Re: Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:00 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Automaton and other scientific developments is neccessary for the social development as it will pave way for the rise of modern working class, lead by scientists and engineers, rather than scumbags like Georg Soros.

    I think we both agree on thet technological progress is a must but if not accompanied by reasonable socialist policy it is doomed to be oligarchic system. So we are old commies  respekt  respekt  respekt



    sepheronx wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Automaton and other scientific developments is neccessary for the social development as it will pave way for the rise of modern working class, lead by scientists and engineers, rather than scumbags like Georg Soros.

    No it wont.  George Soros makes money from playing the stock markets.  It will just pave way for even more of these type of people.  And it will break the current system worldwide as people without jobs cannot pay for anything, period.  Take a look at Scotland and you got yourself a living example.  Move jobs elsewhere (like automation more or less) and average person relies upon hand outs from government to drink all day at the local tavern.  That is pretty damn depressing.  Automation will just make rich people more rich temporary till the system collapses.


    Automation has little to do with having or not having jobs. Wealth distribution does. If you do not believe checc socialist Germany with high level of industrial automation vs capitalist Philippines or Bangladesh ...

    USSR should also be good example -automation and robotics were pretty much developed then...surely to deprive poor workers form jobs?

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