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    T-55 and BTR-T your views

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    GarryB
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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:06 am

    Ironic that the CIA Stooge Shah of Iran in the 1970s paid for the Challenger to be designed and built with the new Chobham armour.

    If the Iranians had waited a couple of years after 1979 to overthrow him they might have had a few hundred Challengers in service instead of Chieftains.

    Would have been a bit ironic the best tank in the ME being Iranian...


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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  TR1 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:46 am

    Merkava has the most freaking vulnerable engine of any tank in the world.

    Most overrated design IMO.

    Deep Throat
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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Deep Throat on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:05 am

    GarryB wrote:The reason ERA is so useful is that one hit might take out a block or two but very few AT weapons are accurate enough to allow that empty area to be targeted accurately enough to exploit that.
    But Garry , if the adversary is armed with the RPG 32 the T 72 , T 90 , Merkava or M1A2 will not be able to survive .

    For that matter even an APS like Arena on a T 90 cannot protect it from an RPG 32 .

    I suspect even the FGM 148 Javelin  if it hits directly , can cause un acceptable damage to any modern day MBT .

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    T-55

    Post  Pugnax on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:33 am

    Merkava is also the most crew survivable tank in the world...on a frontal hit.

    runaway
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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  runaway on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:45 am

    Deep Throat wrote:
    For that matter even an APS like Arena on a T 90 cannot protect it from an RPG 32 .
    .
    Why not, nothing magical about RPG-32!?

    " Arena system was primarily designed to defeat threats such as the rocket propelled grenade and the anti-tank missile, including newer anti-tank missiles with longer ranges.[11] The active protection system can protect against missiles fired from both infantry carried rocket launchers and from helicopters, which attack the vehicle directly or by overflying it"

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Deep Throat on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:07 pm

    runaway wrote:
    Why not, nothing magical about RPG-32!?

    " Arena system was primarily designed to defeat threats such as the rocket propelled grenade and the anti-tank missile, including newer anti-tank missiles with longer ranges.[11] The active protection system can protect against missiles fired from both infantry carried rocket launchers and from helicopters, which attack the vehicle directly or by overflying it"
    RPG 32 was designed keeping APS in mind . Israeli Merkavas armed with Trophy APS have been hit by RPG 32 .

    Active protection systems such as ARENA-E, Drozd and Trophy defeat anti-armor munitions by destroying them before they reach their target. The RPG 32's precursor round acts as a false target, tricking the target's APS into engaging it, allowing the main round a clear path into the target, while the APS is stuck in the 0.2-0.4 second delay it needs to start its next engagement.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  runaway on Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:11 pm

    Deep Throat wrote:
    Active protection systems such as ARENA-E, Drozd and Trophy defeat anti-armor munitions by destroying them before they reach their target. The RPG 32's precursor round acts as a false target, tricking the target's APS into engaging it, allowing the main round a clear path into the target, while the APS is stuck in the 0.2-0.4 second delay it needs to start its next engagement.
    Hm are you sure? I thought RPG-32 used ordinary tandem warhead, just as Kornet. As Kornet destroyed Merkavas it suggest Trophy wasnt installed or didnt work as supposed.
    RPG-30 has precursor round, perhaps the new Kornets and RPG-32 have also?


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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  TR1 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:07 pm

    Pugnax wrote:Merkava is also the most crew survivable tank in the world...on a frontal hit.
    No more survivable than M1A2, Leo2A5, T-90AM, etc etc etc. if we are talking about frontal engagements.

    It's not like the engine is behind a thick array...that's the problem...the front hull is not strong at all.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:28 am

    Merkava is also the most crew survivable tank in the world...on a frontal hit.
    Personally I am not so sure.

    A large heavy vehicle engine is not made of hardened metals like armour so despite it being a large lump of metal it really doesn't equate to that much better protection...and it also places a large hot noisy object in the front of the tank that increases the IR signature and introduces flammable fluids into the path of incoming enemy ammo.

    But Garry , if the adversary is armed with the RPG 32 the T 72
    It has the same anti armour warhead as the RPG-7 and RPG-29. A 105mm calibre weapon.

    The RPG-28 has a more powerful 125mm calibre warhead.

    RPG-30 has precursor round, perhaps the new Kornets and RPG-32 have also?
    Ahh, I think you are both talking about the RPG-31 with two rockets launched almost simultaneously.


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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  runaway on Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:04 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Ahh, I think you are both talking about the RPG-31 with two rockets launched almost simultaneously.
    Nope
    "The RPG-30 shares a close resemblance with the RPG-27 in that it is a man-portable, disposable anti-tank rocket launcher with a single shot capacity. Unlike the RPG-27 however, there is a smaller diameter precursor round in a smaller side barrel tube, in addition to the main round in the main tube."

    And tandem warhead is not the same Depp throat, so RPG-32 and Kornet did destroy Merkavas in 2006, before APS Trophy was installed.

    "On March 1, 2011, stationed near the Gaza border, a Merkava MK IV equipped with the trophy system foiled a missile attack aimed toward it and became the first operational success of the trophy active defense system"

    Maybe now its a different game.

    But since Trophy costs some S600.000 it wont be fitted to all tanks, perhaps only those assigned to local hotspots like Gaza.


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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:07 pm

    APS is the new name of the game. problem with recyclying old hulls like the T55 is that the cost of the hull becomes a negligible part of the overall system cost once you factor in all the modern gizmos.

    I reckon the best use for the T55 hulls is in cheap ARV/Heavy APC. mods that don't cost the earth, and thus the original hull / tracks / engine will retain a decent % of the overall value of the end vehicle.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:23 am

    APS is the new name of the game. problem with recyclying old hulls like the T55 is that the cost of the hull becomes a negligible part of the overall system cost once you factor in all the modern gizmos.
    Hardly new... Drozd was tested in the 1980s and was successful enough... Drozd 2 is available now, while ARENA was designed from scratch, but ARENA 2 seems to have removed the big tower and made it more efficient... the real point is that APSs are still not very widely deployed.

    A decent APS could make older tanks still viable in a range of roles but one has to ask if they do their job do new armoured vehicles need heavy armour anymore?

    Mass production should reduce costs, but having modular armour arrangements could lead eventually to instead of having four different vehicles... having one with different levels of modular armour and the option of tracks or wheels... back to the BT series tanks!

    I reckon the best use for the T55 hulls is in cheap ARV/Heavy APC. mods that don't cost the earth, and thus the original hull / tracks / engine will retain a decent % of the overall value of the end vehicle.
    I would think a new design with modular armour that can be upgraded makes more sense. T-55s have old wiring and old components... the bother of giving it an extensive upgrade just to use it as an APC.

    For a country that has lots of them... they are either very poor or Russia or China... if they are poor then trucks will do the job. Russia is working on all new vehicles and China has a range of alternatives too.

    I would think the best market for a T-55 based APC would be to make them for small armies like NZ or Israel, with all the bells and whistles so they wont be cheap but will do a good job of protecting troops.

    The low cost and availability of parts making support cheaper than modern vehicles.


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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:51 pm

    best use for T-55 would be as gate guards... Razz  lol! 
    as an HAPC they would do great, esp. if you invested the extra to move the engine to the front, thicken up the base armor, put some decent ERA along with APS. also BMPTs, ditto with HAPC, except engine replacement, plus getting bmpt combat module.
    BTR-T is not that bad, just that like BMP-3 you have all these hatches for your troops to come out of because the engine sits at the back.

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    Russia and the T-55

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:30 am

    Hi all, wonder if anyone can answer my question. The T-55 was the most produced tank in the world and is still in use today, some with some pretty good upgrades like Eygpts Ramses II, and upgrades are still available for them. But what i want to know is what did Russia do with its T-55's? did they scrap them, sell them, store them, etc, i know they had developed the BTR-T which used the chassis and to which i thought was a good a vehicle and a good use for the old tanks (but no orders have been placed). Infact i think the use of Ramses II and the BTR-T working together would be great idea. Russia seems to horde vast quantities of armoured vehicles i.e BMP1&2, MT-LB, BRDM-2, BMD1&2, and BTR 60/70/80, any info on these would be great too.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:02 am

    AFAIK about T-55 lot of them are used to train tank drivers and mechanics on them also quite a few are used to become BTRT transporter but also doubt that lot of BTRT are made of older T-55's.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:16 am

    Werewolf wrote:AFAIK about T-55 lot of them are used to train tank drivers and mechanics on them also quite a few are used to become BTRT transporter but also doubt that lot of BTRT are made of older T-55's.

    Do you know how many BTRTs have been made? I couldn't find the number if my life depended on it!

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:34 am

    Mike E wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:AFAIK about T-55 lot of them are used to train tank drivers and mechanics on them also quite a few are used to become BTRT transporter but also doubt that lot of BTRT are made of older T-55's.

    Do you know how many BTRTs have been made? I couldn't find the number if my life depended on it!

    Sorry, can't find any recent informations on it either.

    Most information on inet i can find are at least 5 years and some even 20 years old.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:47 am

    Same here... Sad

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:33 pm

    There is an Russian upgrade version named T-55AM which retain the 100mm gun but have additional ERA and stronger engine, and ATGM for the 100mm gun. A good export model/upgrade service for poor countries, but I wonder if the Russian can upgunned a bit. For example replace the 100mm with the 115mm one.

    Both the Israeli T-55M3 have the L7 105mm and the Ukrainian T-55AGM have a 125mm gun.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Asf on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:23 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:AFAIK about T-55 lot of them are used to train tank drivers and mechanics on them also quite a few are used to become BTRT transporter but also doubt that lot of BTRT are made of older T-55's.

    Do you know how many BTRTs have been made? I couldn't find the number if my life depended on it!
    Only prorotypes and about 30 for Bangladesh only.

    Russian army uses some number of BMO-T

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Asf on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:26 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:There is an Russian upgrade version named T-55AM which retain the 100mm gun but have additional ERA and stronger engine, and ATGM for the 100mm gun. A good export model/upgrade service for poor countries, but I wonder if the Russian can upgunned a bit. For example replace the 100mm with the 115mm one.
    There were many upgrades of T-55 (T-55AMV, for example). But Russia didn't change it's cannon. Only some ukraininan/eastern europe developers did it in 90s

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Asf on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:30 pm

    But what i want to know is what did Russia do with its T-55's?

    They were upgraded several times till late 80s, for Naval Infantry for example, but nowadays they are a subjected for to be replaced and are all mostly stored or recycled. Never hard of them being sold (officially)

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Mike E on Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:42 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:AFAIK about T-55 lot of them are used to train tank drivers and mechanics on them also quite a few are used to become BTRT transporter but also doubt that lot of BTRT are made of older T-55's.

    Do you know how many BTRTs have been made? I couldn't find the number if my life depended on it!
    Only prorotypes and about 30 for Bangladesh only.

    Russian army uses some number of BMO-T
    I thought that the BMO-T was based on the T-72...

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  medo on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:31 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:AFAIK about T-55 lot of them are used to train tank drivers and mechanics on them also quite a few are used to become BTRT transporter but also doubt that lot of BTRT are made of older T-55's.

    Do you know how many BTRTs have been made? I couldn't find the number if my life depended on it!
    Only prorotypes and about 30 for Bangladesh only.

    Russian army uses some number of BMO-T
    I thought that the BMO-T was based on the T-72...

    It is based on T-72.

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    Re: T-55 and BTR-T your views

    Post  Mike E on Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:00 pm

    I was correcting Asf... Anyway, Russia could probably make some quick cash by selling BTR-Ts to smaller countries...

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