PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

Vann7 wrote:

Indian Flanker wrote:

collegeboy16 wrote:good to see they are going all russkie for the avionics too, would make the product better and cost effective too. now all thats left is to cancel Rafale, hehehe and go for Mig-35/ or more orders of FGFA.

We have done this before. But IAF is in love with Rafale(love is blind). Infact the Russians were so pissed off in 2011 after IAF chose Rafale that the evergreen Indo-Russian relationship went to its lowest point ever in history.

India ordering Mig-35 would have meant that:

1) MiG brand remains healthy financially  and popular, with India going for it over all birds of the world.

2) MiG would have found enough R&D money to sustain the LMF 5th gen fighter, which was postponed because of Russian government/UAC focussing more on the heavy T-50.

3) More weapon sales= more money to Russia.

4) To take the Indo-Russian or Indo-MiG relationship to the next level( as MiG offered for the first time IP rights of MiG-35 to India).

Conclusion:  Russians thought that their offer was the best for India's requirements, and fullfilled all criteria(s) put up by  the IAF, but was knocked out because of IAF's bias towards Rafale, hence the anger.


PS: Interesting thing is, in the late 1990s, India was more interested in a light 5th gen fighter from MiG, but later UAC convinced them to join a heavy-fighter project aka the T-50.

I never understood India foreign Policy.They have been always totally passive in every world conflict. It was Russia who stood with India when they were being isolated in the west for its nuclear program. India total neutrality policy is totally obsolete and they do not get that France is part of NATO and controlled by USA and in case they have conflict with the west they will be sanctioned and France will backup those sanctions.  India do not see that helping Russia economy , is in their own interest because Russia is the only Thing that India have to guarantee their Independence because if Russia economy collapse ,India will have no ally to counter the west. India but also China needs to create a solid Alliance with Russia ,in trading ,economically and militarily ,to counter NATO. If they continue with the mentality of ignoring they could significantly help Russia and help themselves at the same time ,then.. one day the will wake with a major conflict started from abroad ,and They will find no allies will want to help them.

Vann7,

I voted someone up earlier this morning; so I am out of votes for today, but I'll vote this post of yours up tomorrow.

This was a very good post illustrating an extremely important geopolitical concept, and you have well described India's destiny in the years to come if "India's" approach stays the same.

Of course, I should add that the workings of the "Matrix" is superior to geopolitics or other "human" "endeavors", and it is the "Matrix" that determines the human destiny. In my last sentence, I was intentionally speaking in riddles, of course.

Extremly interesting article about PAK-FA

Deliveries promising aviation complex tactical aircraft in the Air Force to start trial operation will begin in 2016 More: http://www.arms-expo.ru/049051124051053052055053.html



About the engine: 15 ton trust (for a phase 1 engine):

Engine 117 mounted on Russian plane, compared with AL-31F has increased to 15 ton thrust with afterburner.

and the thing I had not doubt even for a second   



About the internal weapons bays: 10 (4 RVV-MD in each of centerline and 2 RVV-MD in side ones):

Warload: 1310-10000 kg for air combat, weapons bays: 1620 kg (8 x RVV-SD + 2 x RVV-MD) against ground targets, weapons bays: 4220 kg (8 x CC-500 + 2 x RVV -MD)


Point suspension: Internal: 8 or 10 external 8 or 2

About the supercruise: M 2.0

Besforsazhnom Maximum speed: 1300-2100 km / h (1.1-2.0 M)

and other

Flight Duration: up to 5.8 h
Service ceiling: 20,000 m
Rate of climb: 350 m / s
Takeoff / distance: 350 m

Viktor wrote:
About the internal weapons bays: 10 (4 RVV-MD in each of centerline and 2 RVV-MD in side ones):

nice... thats 2 more amraamski than f-22 b1tches.

Vann7 wrote:

Indian Flanker wrote:

collegeboy16 wrote:good to see they are going all russkie for the avionics too, would make the product better and cost effective too. now all thats left is to cancel Rafale, hehehe and go for Mig-35/ or more orders of FGFA.

We have done this before. But IAF is in love with Rafale(love is blind). Infact the Russians were so pissed off in 2011 after IAF chose Rafale that the evergreen Indo-Russian relationship went to its lowest point ever in history.

India ordering Mig-35 would have meant that:

1) MiG brand remains healthy financially  and popular, with India going for it over all birds of the world.

2) MiG would have found enough R&D money to sustain the LMF 5th gen fighter, which was postponed because of Russian government/UAC focussing more on the heavy T-50.

3) More weapon sales= more money to Russia.

4) To take the Indo-Russian or Indo-MiG relationship to the next level( as MiG offered for the first time IP rights of MiG-35 to India).

Conclusion:  Russians thought that their offer was the best for India's requirements, and fullfilled all criteria(s) put up by  the IAF, but was knocked out because of IAF's bias towards Rafale, hence the anger.


PS: Interesting thing is, in the late 1990s, India was more interested in a light 5th gen fighter from MiG, but later UAC convinced them to join a heavy-fighter project aka the T-50.

I never understood India foreign Policy.They have been always totally passive in every world conflict. It was Russia who stood with India when they were being isolated in the west for its nuclear program. India total neutrality policy is totally obsolete and they do not get that France is part of NATO and controlled by USA and in case they have conflict with the west they will be sanctioned and France will backup those sanctions. India do not see that helping Russia economy , is in their own interest because Russia is the only Thing that India have to guarantee their Independence because if Russia economy collapse ,India will have no ally to counter the west. India but also China needs to create a solid Alliance with Russia ,in trading ,economically and militarily ,to counter NATO. If they continue with the mentality of ignoring they could significantly help Russia and help themselves at the same time ,then.. one day the will wake with a major conflict started from abroad ,and They will find no allies will want to help them.

Nice post

To understand India's foreign policy, you need to look into its past. In its years old history, India hasn't attacked a nation. It's the land of the "Buddha" for a reason. India wants all people of the world to live peacefully, and to never engage in a war.

However, that does not mean that India can not fight. It can. As for non-alignment, well USSR was always our patriach. The city in which I used to live "Bokaro Steel City" was completely built from scrath by the Soviet Union. And that was not the only thing.

Even now, we are Russia's best friend as they are to us(despite the MRCA fiasco).


The problem for us now is :CHINA

We see China as our biggest enemy at the moment(just like USA), while Russia wants to form Indo/China/Russia partnership to keep US on a check.

Things are a lot more complicated that what they really look from outside. Even though India practices non-alignment by its nature, yet it always was, is, and will be number one ally of Russia, even when things are good, bad, or ugly.

I rest my case here...

That stuff about internal capacity is guessing nonsense.

There are two pylons per bay today. No more, no less.
I don't think we will ever see 4 per bay.

The RVV-SD has folding fins so I would expect to fit rather more than two side by side in a weapon bay designed to fit two R-37Ms side by side.

We are still talking about prototypes so until we see serial aircraft with their weapon bay doors open everything is speculation, but it would make sense to maximise internal carriage.

Also be aware that different loads will be possible and with different weapons some new loadouts might be possible.

For instance the RVV-MD (R-73) has nose and rear mounted control fins... Morfei... with thrust vectoring control might just have small tail fins and some strakes for stability in flight so it might be possible to fit 2 Morfei missiles in each wing position for example.

Perhaps the loadout might be 4 Morfei, 4 R-77M, and 2 R-37M where the latter two types are for AWACS and non stealthy targets while for dealing with F-22 and F-35 the Morfei and cannon could be used.

issue is not the folding fins but the unknown width of the useful weapons bay space. for all the images of the belly and various drawings people made of the weapon bays, we don't even know the precise width of the external surface of the weapon bay doors (less important), which seems to range between 1,1 to 1,2 meters and we certainly don't know the width of the inner space clear for launch, once the doors are opened. It is bound to be less, but how much? 0,9 meters? 1,1 meter? Impossible to know.

Raptor has lots of hi res images out there and published precise wingspan. One can very accurately calculate that raptor's weapon bay doors are 1,08 meters wide. But at the same time, the images of the opened weapons bay show that useful width of that weapon bay is less, around 0,93 meters.

In those 0,93 meters they managed to cram three amraams whose wingspan/1,414 amounts to 0,317 meters.

Rvv-sd has wingspan/1,414 of 0,297 meters, as per JSC website.

three amraams side by side in a staggered layout use 0,81 meters of width. So some 15 centiemers is used as clearance between weapon bay doors and missiles themselves. That's for 4 gaps total as there's three missiles per bay.

If pakfa bay's inner width is similar in percentage to f22's, it'd be 0,96 to 1,05 meters wide.
If clearance between missiles in pakfa's bay is similar to one in f22, one would need close to 19 cm worth of clearance for hypothetical four missiles per bay.

four rvv-sd side by side, but in a staggered formation would use 0.897 meters. Adding the 19 cm of clearance that rises to 1,087 meters.

It looks unlikely four such missiles would fit, but as we don't know precise measures of clearance nor width, of course one can't be sure.
With some future missile that might be narrower than rvv-sd - anything's possible.

All this being said, it would appear there is room enough for three rvv-sd per bay. So why would there be only two pylons per bay, as TR1 says, - who knows. Maybe the useful inner width is even less than i speculated here, though if the clearances are the same as f22 (maybe they're not) then even a 0,85 wide inner bay would be enough for three rvv-sd. (but 0,83 m wide one wouldn't).

Serial PAK FA will carry new, much slimmer AAM. At MAKS 2011 it was mentioned that the RVV-SD, RVV-MD and RVV-BD were not foreseen for the PAK FA. These missiles are for ultra modern versions of the Flanker, Fulcrum and Foxhound.

PAK FA will probably get the medium range Izd. 180-PD, the short range Izd. 300 K-MD or Izd. 760 and the long range Izd. 810.

If the Izd. 180 is slim enough, than 4 missiles per bay could be possible.

It is disappointing that we, till now, know nothing precise about the brand new Russian AAM's.

Fifth generation fighter not priority for UAC

ITAR-TASS wrote:MOSCOW, April 12, /ITAR-TASS/. Creating a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is not a priority task for the United Aircraft Corporation President (UAC), its President Mikhail Pogosyan told ARMS-TASS on Saturday, April 12.

“I think a light version of the fifth generation aircraft may be created, but this task is not in our operational plans,” he said.

Instead, the UAC will focus on building MiG-29 fighter planes and upgrading them to the MiG-35 version.

Contracts with the Indian and Russian defence ministries under the MiG-29K/KUB programme require “the UAC to focus entirely on the completion of these aircraft”, Pogosyan said, adding that after that it would be necessary to decide whether “we should start working on a drone or a light version of the fifth generation aircraft”.

Speaking of the latter, Pogosyan said it would be ineffective to copy American technologies for a number of reasons because the Soviet and Russian aircraft-building industry had always developed in its own way in accordance with the current military doctrine.

More here

Anyone care to explain this to the uninitiated?

macedonian wrote:Fifth generation fighter not priority for UAC

Pogosyan is referening to only light 5th generation LMFS (after 2020),.

Of course PAK-FA is a priority - its a thing with translation.   

Viktor wrote:

macedonian wrote:Fifth generation fighter not priority for UAC

Pogosyan is referening to only light 5th generation LMFS (after 2020),.

Of course PAK-FA is a priority - its a thing with translation.   

Thought that might be it.
Thanks Viktor.

macedonian wrote:Thought that might be it.
Thanks Viktor.

I was just reading the same article and wondering, whats going on there

Anyway im hopping that 11 bin $ FGFA contract will be signed and sealed soon.

Viktor wrote:

macedonian wrote:Thought that might be it.
Thanks Viktor.

I was just reading the same article and wondering, whats going on there

Anyway im hopping that 11 bin $ FGFA contract will be signed and sealed soon.

Yes, same here.
I thought the same thing, but wasn't too sure (that's why I wanted to run it by someone to be sure).


P.S. Great minds, eh... 

Vann7 wrote:I never understood India foreign Policy

In that case , refrain from commenting on topics that you do not understand . Because what you have written below proves that you are not questioning the reader's inteligence , you are assuming they don't have any .

Vann7 wrote:They have been always totally passive in every world conflict

And why shouldn't we be ? Did we start any of the major world conflicts . Korea , Vietnam , Iraq , Serbia , Falklands ..?????

Vann7 wrote:It was Russia who stood with India when they were being isolated in the west for its nuclear program.

Who said that to you ? Today if India has signed a $5 billion dollar nuclear deal with RUSSIA it's because the US was able to get India a waiver at the NSG .

Vann7 wrote:India total neutrality policy is totally obsolete

And yet PUTIN said as early as last month that Russia " highly appreciate India’s restraint and objectivity" .

http://in.rbth.com/world/2014/03/19/vladimir_putin_grateful_for_indias_stand_on_crimea_calls_manmohan_singh_33841.html

Vann7 wrote:and they do not get that France is part of NATO and controlled by USA and in case they have conflict with the west they will be sanctioned and France will backup those sanctions.

France never backed sanctions against India even when India carried out it's nuclear tests in 1998 .

Vann7 wrote: India do not see that helping Russia economy , is in their own interest because Russia is the only Thing that India have to guarantee their Independence because if Russia economy collapse ,India will have no ally to counter the west.

Get your facts right .The Russian economy is in no way dependent on India .

Vann7 wrote:India but also China needs to create a solid Alliance with Russia ,in trading ,economically and militarily ,to counter NATO. If they continue with the mentality of ignoring they could significantly help Russia and help themselves at the same time ,then..

So you are saying BRICS , RIC , SCO , CSTO do not exist ?

Vann7 wrote:one day the will wake with a major conflict started from abroad ,and They will find no allies will want to help them

That only happens when you go to sleep without checking who your bedfellow is .

Russia is the only thing that can guarantee India independence dude..
NATO  do not like nations with better economy than theirs and that they do not control. that competes with them in power or in economy.. Even less if they have nuclear weapons..  If for some reason that is not impossible Russia economy collapse ,lets say europe find new gas and oil resources ,Russia will have no one to sell its oil and will collapse its economy and significantly reduce its world influence. Without Russia it will be impossible for India or China to continue growing ,because the west does not like competition. Is on the interest of India to NOT be a totally neutral country and take sides. India love technology thats quite clear.. but guess what? the only way they could get state of the art weapons is through Russia. Because the west don't sell its best stuff. So is in the interest to help Russia economy for India and stop supporting NATO so that they can continue producing state of the art weapons and technology that India later will benefit because Russia sells almost everything to them.  India policy is totally obsolete ,and it was the cause of major frictions some time ago with Russia. India without Russia will be a colony of United States in no time. When they sanction you ,for not using their genetic food ,not allowing them to run your government and allowing their military bases inside India territory.

Just take a look at Africa.. did you know why such big continent is split in so many parts and never progress?
Because NATO does not like competition. and is more efficient to steal poor nations its resources than rich nations with powerful armies.
So India will be an Africa today totally divided or at least a major colony of U.S and Israel.. if it wasn't for Russia stopping NATO interference in the middle east.

Just take a look at how India policy of neutrality have ALREADY damaged its relations in the past with Russia.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/04/27/300446/russia-may-stop-arms-sale-to-india/

The message that India sends to Russia is that is not a 100% trustful nation ,and that they are not a power they can always count for anything else than sales of technology. So inward looking/(ignore what happens in world policy) will not make you earn any friends or allies in the world.

This is the reason why Russia and India project with pak-fa had problems.. when it comes sharing technology secrets because Russia well knows India is not a power they can fully trust and that is not always loyal. India needs to wake up , and realize wanting to be a major super power,as India is clearly looking to be with its nuclear deterrence and space programs ,is NOT compatible with their policy of total neutrality . Not compatible with their independence,Unless they have a real alliance with Russia that is the only world power that protect
the rights of every country independence. .

offtopic:
regarding superpowers, I think it would be hard for india to catch up with china. she is simply too fragmented internally to even influence her immediate neighbors, let alone participate in the superpower game. europe is the same, tho its more of the clash of ambitions of the major powers there that prevents them from blending up. so Its more of 3 superpowers in the future- us,china and russia. china and us would be the dominant superpowers, tho they would be roughly equal, and funnily enough because of this balance russia becomes even more powerful- she has the say who wins in a clash between the two eminent superpowers. europe and india could to a lesser extent tip the scales to at most even when they oppose whom russia sides with.

France never backed sanctions against India even when India carried out it's nuclear tests in 1998 .

Hehehe... France not imposing sanctions against a country for testing nuclear weapons... they would likely burst into flames if they did...   

India total neutrality policy is totally obsolete

The problem is not countries that don't get involved... the problem is the risk free environment for those countries that do throw around their weight.

Russia is the only thing that can guarantee India independence dude..

There is only one country that can guarantee Indias independence... and that is India herself.

NATO do not like nations with better economy than theirs and that they do not control. that competes with them in power or in economy..

Most NATO nations have little or no say in things.

The US is the problem and they are a problem because they don't like rivals and they will do all sorts of things to undermine rivals including what they are doing to Russia now, to China now, and to India if it keeps thinking for itself.

Anyway... too much off topic... this thread is for T-50/PAK FA news.

It is not a "what is wrong with country x" thread, or a "what should country x start doing" thread.

Viktor wrote:Anyway im hopping that 11 bin $ FGFA contract will be signed and sealed soon.

Are you sure that the contract is now of only $11 billion? If it is true then why there are reports of price escalation by the Russians(of course coming from Ajay Shukla)?

I also think there is some price hike, otherwise this contract should have been signed till now?(all formalities were completeted by April last year, AFAIK)


Lets see, how quickly the next government signs this contract? Am eagerly waiting for the first FGFA prototype to arrive in India.


PS: UAC chief is clearly talking about MiG LMFS and not T-50, cause very apparently it is their numero uno priority.

Indian Flanker wrote:

Viktor wrote:Anyway im hopping that 11 bin $ FGFA contract will be signed and sealed soon.

Are you sure that the contract is now of only $11 billion? If it is true then why there are reports of price escalation by the Russians(of course coming from Ajay Shukla)?

11 bin $ is the second phase of Russia-India development phase. (first one required India to pay something like 500 million $)

Share of 11 bin $ is equally distributed between Russia and India but once that contract is sealed there is no comming back. That means that Russia and India will develop

FGFA and India will buy it for their air force. (That also means that India will spend abou 5.5 bin $ to get FGFA ready for production, it will get production lines and know-how)

As I understand also there is no price hike in FGFA price (which might occure nevertheless because of different factors) but until know there are none besides BS claims in some

India (American paid) newspapers and unsubstantial claims. Russian officials still value PAK-FA price at 100 million $ and that is cheap.

Viktor wrote:

Indian Flanker wrote:

Viktor wrote:Anyway im hopping that 11 bin $ FGFA contract will be signed and sealed soon.

Are you sure that the contract is now of only $11 billion? If it is true then why there are reports of price escalation by the Russians(of course coming from Ajay Shukla)?

11 bin $ is the second phase of Russia-India development phase. (first one required India to pay something like 500 million $)

Share of 11 bin $ is equally distributed between Russia and India but once that contract is sealed there is no comming back. That means that Russia and India will develop

FGFA and India will buy it for their air force. (That also means that India will spend abou 5.5 bin $ to get FGFA ready for production, it will get production lines and know-how)

As I understand also there is no price hike in FGFA price (which might occure nevertheless because of different factors) but until know there are none besides BS claims in some

India (American paid) newspapers and unsubstantial claims. Russian officials still value PAK-FA price at 100 million $ and that is cheap.

I know all these things. But the problem is that if there is no price escalation then why this contract hasn't been signed yet?

The contract is ready since more than one year, so something must be wrong as India still hasn't signed it yet?

Indian Flanker wrote:
The contract is ready since more than one year, so something must be wrong as India still hasn't signed it yet?

Money meant for defense hardware acquisition has been diverted by the Central Govt into various schemes that provides subsidies.

All major weapon procurement deals are hanging fire and this deal is no different .

Expect this deal to be cleared by the end of this year .

Sujoy wrote:Money meant for defense hardware acquisition has been diverted by the Central Govt into various schemes that provides subsidies.

All major weapon procurement deals are hanging fire and this deal is no different .

Expect this deal to be cleared by the end of this year .

Sujoy,

Here is a report direct from the horse's mouth. The FGFA is indeed delayed because of price issues with the Russians, check this:

5th gen fighter aircraft project with Russia delayed: A K Antony

PTI Feb 10, 2014, 04.44PM IST


NEW DELHI: The project to co-develop Fifth General Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia and the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft and Intermediate Jet Trainer programmes have been delayed, Defence Minister AK Antony told the Lok Sabha today.

In the FGFA project the preliminary design phase has been completed in June last year, the Minister said.

According to Defence Ministry officials, the project has been stuck due to delays in deciding over the work share and the pricing issues in the project.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-02-10/news/47200826_1_operational-clearance-defence-minister-ak-antony-ijt

See, it's not just that India is out of funds, but there are real pricing plus work-share differences, otherwise the contract would have been signed till now.

Indian Flanker wrote:
Sujoy,

Here is a report direct from the horse's mouth. The FGFA is indeed delayed because of price issues with the Russians, check this:

HAL has decided to surrender 30% of it's workshare back to Sukhoi . Basically it's a case of biting more than you can chew . HAL as always realized it belatedly .

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-HAL-tiff-threatens-to-shatter-indigenization-quest/articleshow/21492297.cms

This is what has caused the problem . So if you surrender 30% naturally the pricing will have to be worked out again .

The more they drag their feet the more the price is bound to rise .

Im not really excited about Pak-Fa.. is cool but i don't see in what way it will become a deterrence for NATO .
it cannot carry heavy bombs.. Russia better screw pak-fa and start with an Strategic Stealth SUpersonic (or hypersonic) High Altitude Bomber.   

That could carry any kind of weapons internally including Iskanders , smaller version of bulavas , and missiles that can be thrown from TOP to DOWN.. that will make very hard to defeat such kind of missiles for any system of defense if the come above their heads and from very high near space altitude ,there is no easy way to calculate its trajectory and predict its interception.  

Lets start a petition to Russia to create a hypersonic stealth Bomber.   
something that looks like this..




http://worldofdefencebybunty.blogspot.com/2013/11/worldofdefencenew-genration-stealth.html

Then they create like 20 or 30 of them.. Could be a replacement of the TU-160 also....but needs to be twice bigger in size to it can handle
very cool missiles.. like mini ICBMS and all that stuff internally.   . So instead of giving a 8 hours warning to NATO of any missile launch as happens with normal ICBMS..those can be launched right at the border of any Nation by using Bombers as delivery on normal patrols and strike withing minutes of launched. That will be awesome. imagine whole world drooling ,when Russia travel to Venezuela or Cuba in their shinny new super stealth fast bombers.    That will have the US congress and allies for months of discussion and worried about Russia new advanced deterrent capabilities.. as it was the news of CHina hypersonic plane.. 

Russia needs more than just strategic weapons. NATO is just one threat.

Russia's future military needs to be able to dominate the battlefield without relying on overly complicated nuclear capable assets. The weapons don't have to be way over the top, just better than everyone else.