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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

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    Post  Indian Flanker on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:11 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Indian Flanker wrote:
    So, who knows Mr. Ajay Shukla's wet dream may come true and India may cancel Rafale and buy F-35s instead!

    If india is stupid enough to cripple its Air Force useless beyond the inferior capability of Pakistans incompetent Air Force than let them buy this PR horse.
    I am not a great fan of American fighters, but on the paper F-35 with its touted EOTS/DAS looks like an awesome strike-fighter. So, may be Ajay Shukla has a point?

    However it is true that that guy(Ajay Shukla) is a pro-US(anti-Russia) puppet.
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    Post  GJ Flanker on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:34 pm

    The T-50-5

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eWoYZi3jfY#t=925
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    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:40 pm

    Indian Flanker wrote:
    I am not a great fan of American fighters, but on the paper F-35 with its touted EOTS/DAS looks like an awesome strike-fighter. So, may be Ajay Shukla has a point?
    EOTS and DAS are just sensors - you can always buy a pod or stick them in the plane.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:13 am

    From Latest Air International


    The term ‘fifth generation’, a marketing conceit dreamed up by the F-22’s manufacturer and now widely used in the fighter world, suggests that a stealth fighter is more advanced than a fighter not designed with low observable (LO), or stealth properties. The Raptor does not use
    radar absorbent material (RAM) on all of its surfaces: the material is used selectively on
    edges, cavities and surface discontinuities.surfaces: the material is used selectively on
    edges, cavities and surface discontinuities.

    Nevertheless, the F-22 is considered to offer full stealth, unlike the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, which has a very good radar profile from the front, a less stealthy profile from the sides, and a not-so-stealthy profile from the rear quarter. The F-22 is also considered stealthier than radar-evading aircraft that preceded it, including the F-117 Nighthawk and B-2 Spirit.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:25 am

    Austin wrote:From Latest Air International


    The term ‘fifth generation’, a marketing conceit dreamed up by the F-22’s manufacturer and now widely used in the fighter world, suggests that a stealth fighter is more advanced than a fighter not designed with low observable (LO), or stealth properties. The Raptor does not use
    radar absorbent material (RAM) on all of its surfaces: the material is used selectively on
    edges, cavities and surface discontinuities.surfaces: the material is used selectively on
    edges, cavities and surface discontinuities.

    Nevertheless, the F-22 is considered to offer full stealth, unlike the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, which has a very good radar profile from the front, a less stealthy profile from the sides, and a not-so-stealthy profile from the rear quarter. The F-22 is also considered stealthier than radar-evading aircraft that preceded it, including the F-117 Nighthawk and B-2 Spirit.

    May'be there's been some tech innovation in the F-22, but it's highly unlikely that the F-22 is stealthier than the B-2 Spirit.
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:26 am

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    EOTS and DAS are just sensors - you can always buy a pod or stick them in the plane.
    DAS is for 360 degree situational awareness, with all around video facility. Can't replace that with pods. Yes having MAWS/LWS sensors all around (like Su-35??) would help.
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:32 am

    Austin wrote:From Latest Air International


    The term ‘fifth generation’, a marketing conceit dreamed up by the F-22’s manufacturer and now widely used in the fighter world, suggests that a stealth fighter is more advanced than a fighter not designed with low observable (LO), or stealth properties. The Raptor does not use
    radar absorbent material (RAM) on all of its surfaces: the material is used selectively on
    edges, cavities and surface discontinuities.surfaces: the material is used selectively on
    edges, cavities and surface discontinuities.

    Nevertheless, the F-22 is considered to offer full stealth, unlike the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, which has a very good radar profile from the front, a less stealthy profile from the sides, and a not-so-stealthy profile from the rear quarter. The F-22 is also considered stealthier than radar-evading aircraft that preceded it, including the F-117 Nighthawk and B-2 Spirit.
    In the US forum(f-16), I came across a similar post. One of the very reasons F-117 was replaced was because of its high maintenance(RAM coating all around after each sortie et al), while they touted F-22 as lot more maintenance friendly than the Night-hawk.

    So, who knows it very well could be more stealthy than F-117 and yet more maintenance friendly. As far as B-2 is concerned, hard to believe that F-22 is even more stealthier than it??!!


    Looks like Indo-Russian engineers have a big challenge in front of them to best F-22 in all aspects. Hoping for the best.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:48 am

    Yes the B-2 part is surprise  but its possible that B-2 has broad band stealth capability covering VHF/HF/X band while F-22 is more stealthy on X band but does not have broad band capability
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:04 pm

    Indian policy is "no first strike" in case of Ballistic Missiles.

    Hopefully you never need to use them, but if you do why wait till the other side uses theirs?

    And Garry, you didn't mention F-35?

    I didn't mention F-35 because India would only be allowed to use it against China and it would be a downgraded export model that will not likely be available for 10-15 years anyway.

    You are already spending lots of money on the FFGA... it makes no sense to then spend even more money on an off the shelf aircraft that is less capable in most areas.

    With its touted EOTS/DAS it is going to be a perfect stealth strike aircraft.(F-117 is already dead after the induction of F-22)

    The touted EOTS/DAS is also fitted to the Mig-35 and will almost certainly be on the FFGA... so again... why spend money on something you are already buying?

    So, who knows Mr. Ajay Shukla's wet dream may come true and India may cancel Rafale and buy F-35s instead!

    If India cancels the Rafale buy it should make the most obvious and most sensible decision it could possibly make and invest that 10 billion into solving any remaining issues with Tejas and getting it into mass production as soon as possible.

    If they need a short term stopgap aircraft then Mig-29M2s would be relatively cheap numbers aircraft with full multirole capability.

    But getting Tejas into service in large numbers would be much more useful... perhaps a joint development on a new engine and a new AESA radar for Tejas... with France or with Russia would also make sense and make them feel they don't have all their eggs in one basket still.

    As far as Su-34 is concerned, well, I'm a great fan of this fighter-bomber. But don't think IAF would want to buy another heavy class fighter since they already have the MKI and would receive FGFA's in next 6/7 years!

    I agree. It is too similar to the planes they are already committed to buy. this means to me that if they do want a strike aircraft that a Tu-22M3M able to carry up to 8 Brahmos or Brahmos II missiles externally with the internal rotary launcher for up to 6 heavy bombs (1,500kg) or short range attack missiles could be considered. Certainly a long range strike using enlarged Brahmos II missiles developed together with Russia but modified by India to have much greater range independently so it does not violate export restrictions on missiles could be an option.

    Instead of penetrating enemy airspace with subsonic stealthy aircraft... do it with hypersonic missiles...

    But as I said IAF basically is looking for a medium range striker, and both these other planes have much bigger claim to that than Mig-35.

    Why do you say that?

    Rafale uses three big external fuel tanks for strike missions... the Mig-35 could easily do the same. the F-35 can't use external fuel tanks and remain stealthy, so in terms of range with its inflight refuelling probe and external tanks the Mig-35 should be just as capable as Rafale in terms of flight range.

    With air launched Kalibr it should have long range land attack capability too.

    I am not a great fan of American fighters, but on the paper F-35 with its touted EOTS/DAS looks like an awesome strike-fighter. So, may be Ajay Shukla has a point?

    The F-35 is only going to get more and more expensive... which suggests that for export models performance might be greatly reduced to save money. What the F-35 is not important if only the US models can do it.

    Equally why spend money on the F-35 when stealth was not a consideration in the competition?

    The real role is medium sized replacement for Mirage 2000s... if it can't be Russian, then make it Indian... more Tejas's.

    Nevertheless, the F-22 is considered to offer full stealth, unlike the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, which has a very good radar profile from the front, a less stealthy profile from the sides, and a not-so-stealthy profile from the rear quarter.

    This says it all... who can afford a strike aircraft that is not stealthy from behind? Especially a relatively slow aircraft like the F-35...

    The F-22 is also considered stealthier than radar-evading aircraft that preceded it, including the F-117 Nighthawk and B-2 Spirit.

    It is not stealthy against IRSTs, and I suspect its stealthiness is against X band radar rather than broad bands.

    DAS is for 360 degree situational awareness, with all around video facility. Can't replace that with pods. Yes having MAWS/LWS sensors all around (like Su-35??) would help.

    The Su-27 from the early 1980s had EOTS called IRST. 360 degree visibility sounds amazing and might occasionally be useful, but you have to ask yourself what a stealth aircraft will be doing getting within visual range of things in the air or on the ground.

    In the US forum(f-16), I came across a similar post. One of the very reasons F-117 was replaced was because of its high maintenance(RAM coating all around after each sortie et al), while they touted F-22 as lot more maintenance friendly than the Night-hawk.

    Then the F-117 must have been a real dog because I have heard reports saying the first F-22s had maintainence hours of 40 per flying hour because any access panel that needs to be opened they have to remove the stealthy coating first... open the panel and do the maintainence and then close the panel and then tape up the panel again so there are no edges or gaps and then apply layers of the stealth coating and let it cure before the aircraft is ready to fly.

    BTW I agree with Austin in that the B-2s size allows its shape to be effective against longer wave radar frequencies, whereas the F-22 is too small so the entire aircraft will resonate a radar return in longer wavelengths that don't give much target shape data but can detect the presence of the aircraft.
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:28 pm

    Why do you say that?

    Rafale uses three big external fuel tanks for strike missions... the Mig-35 could easily do the same. the F-35 can't use external fuel tanks and remain stealthy, so in terms of range with its inflight refuelling probe and external tanks the Mig-35 should be just as capable as Rafale in terms of flight range.

    With air launched Kalibr it should have long range land attack capability too.
    The only reason why I say this because Mig-35, being a derivative of Mig-29 should be stunning dogfighter(better than MKI and Su-35 in my opinion), but A2G??

    I don't know how confidence the IAF will have on its strike capabilities. Remember the Kargi war, the strike work was done by Mirage-2000 and the CAP was provided by Mig-29.


    Only reason that IAF is hell bent on Rafale is what Mirage-2000 did in the Kargil War, period.

    Now, lets come to Rafale. It has proved it self in Libya as a very good A2G striker. And F-35 is more conceived as a striker than a fighter. That's why I said that the Indian MRCA deal is between these two western planes(in reality it was always going to be Rafale from the beginning, most of us knew it)!

    So,at the moment it looks like the plan for IAF going into the next decade is :

    IAF's heavy fighter(HCA)/air dominance= FGFA(Russian)

    MCA/striker = Rafale(French)

    LCA/interceptor= Tejas (Indian)


    Looks like a solid combination Very Happy

    Just hope the FGFA is ready in time Very Happy

    PS: Having said all of the above, I would really like IAF to split the MCA deal in half, and order 50 nRafales and 50 Mig-35s. So that everyone is happy lol1
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    Post  RTN on Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:59 pm

    Werewolf wrote:If india is stupid enough to cripple its Air Force useless beyond the inferior capability of Pakistans incompetent Air Force than let them buy this PR horse.

    Once China procures the S 400 , whatever little advantage the Indians have will disappear . Even their Su 30 MKI and T 50 cannot penetrate an airspace guarded by the S 400 .
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    Post  Sujoy on Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:10 pm

    RTN wrote:Once China procures the S 400 , whatever little advantage the Indians have will disappear . Even their Su 30 MKI and T 50 cannot penetrate an airspace guarded by the S 400 .

    Yes ! That's true . Actually India lost the plot a long time ago .

    Moreover Pakistan will get the full backing of a number of Gulf states and China in case war breaks out with India .

    India on the other hand will have to fight solo .

    The Indian Air Force has accepted this , that they cannot face a joint attack from China & Pakistan because of the dwindling number of fighter squadrons .

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iaf-bombshell-difficult-to-tackle-china-pak-threat/article1-1185495.aspx

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:21 am

    Once China procures the S 400 , whatever little advantage the Indians have will disappear . Even their Su 30 MKI and T 50 cannot penetrate an airspace guarded by the S 400 .

    So Russia is the bad guy for selling products that will allow China to protect itself?

    Perhaps India could buy S-400 and protect itself from Chinese 5th gen fighters and balance will be restored?

    The only reason why I say this because Mig-35, being a derivative of Mig-29 should be stunning dogfighter(better than MKI and Su-35 in my opinion), but A2G??

    Its EOTS is on par with that fitted to F-35 and has access to the full range of Russia air to ground munitions... what is it lacking?

    I don't know how confidence the IAF will have on its strike capabilities. Remember the Kargi war, the strike work was done by Mirage-2000 and the CAP was provided by Mig-29.

    The model Mig-29 you had in service was not fully multirole like the Mig-35 is... it is a bit like claiming the F-35 is better at air to ground because the F-15C was used and was used as an air to air fighter so the F-15E must be only good for air to air too.

    Only reason that IAF is hell bent on Rafale is what Mirage-2000 did in the Kargil War, period.

    Now, lets come to Rafale. It has proved it self in Libya as a very good A2G striker. And F-35 is more conceived as a striker than a fighter. That's why I said that the Indian MRCA deal is between these two western planes(in reality it was always going to be Rafale from the beginning, most of us knew it)!

    Yet the French refused to sell you more mirage 2000s and would only sell Rafale at a horrendous price. The MRCA competition was supposed to get something within a fixed budget... which it seems has more than doubled... sounds like India is getting screwed and all they can say is that at least they are not dependent on those evil Russians who might take advantage and try to screw us...

    Now, lets come to Rafale. It has proved it self in Libya as a very good A2G striker. And F-35 is more conceived as a striker than a fighter.

    The problem is that the Rafales will cost more than the Super Flankers... which seem to be more capable...

    IAF's heavy fighter(HCA)/air dominance= FGFA(Russian)

    MCA/striker = Rafale(French)

    LCA/interceptor= Tejas (Indian)

    Seems to me you are wasting the potential of the Flankers...

    IAF's heavy stealth fighter/to take and dominate the air= FFGA(Russian)

    Numbers heavy multirole fighterbomber = Su-30MKIM(Russian/Indian joint development that is basically an FFGAs electronics and avionics in a Su-30MKI shell... not stealthy as such but just as multirole and capable and with more weapons and cheaper to buy and operate)

    LCA/interceptor= Tejas (Indian)

    Cancel the Rafale and buy a French submarine or something...  Razz 

    Personally I don't think India should bother with a medium class aircraft... stealthy and non stealthy heavy, where the stealthy aircraft is expensive but capable, and the non stealthy is capable in other areas including payload capacity etc should be enough... the only thing missing is numbers... a light 5th gen fighter would be ideal to fill that niche.
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:53 am

    RTN wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:If india is stupid enough to cripple its Air Force useless beyond the inferior capability of Pakistans incompetent Air Force than let them buy this PR horse.

    Once China procures the S 400 , whatever little advantage the Indians have will disappear . Even their Su 30 MKI and T 50 cannot penetrate an airspace guarded by the S 400 .
    Don't worry, we are getting the much advanced PantSir-S1 AD systems in future. Very Happy

    And IAF may look in a languid state currently(because of retirement of old Migs), but in the next 5/6 years, entire landscape is going to change.

    And by the way, our planes will be there to defend mother India from dragon fire, and not try to invade Tibet lol1
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:01 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    RTN wrote:Once China procures the S 400 , whatever little advantage the Indians have will disappear . Even their Su 30 MKI and T 50 cannot penetrate an airspace guarded by the S 400 .

    Yes ! That's true . Actually India lost the plot a long time ago .

    Moreover Pakistan will get the full backing of a number of Gulf states and China in case war breaks out with India .

    India on the other hand will have to fight solo .

    The Indian Air Force has accepted this , that they cannot face a joint attack from China & Pakistan because of the dwindling number of fighter squadrons .

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iaf-bombshell-difficult-to-tackle-china-pak-threat/article1-1185495.aspx

    Based upon its current firepower, yes IAF can't fight both China and Pakistan at once.(However, that situation will likely change once we acquire enough FGFAs, Rafales, and LCAs by the next decade).

    But we have a trump card in our naval fleet. Our naval Sea Harriers and Mig-29Ks can destroy anything Pakistan has got, while our IAF's supere flankers are good enough to interdict any effort of Chinese airforce or navy.


    India forces(IAF/IA/IN) should focus more on joint exercises and try to do combat training in symmetry with each other, IMO.
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:07 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Once China procures the S 400 , whatever little advantage the Indians have will disappear . Even their Su 30 MKI and T 50 cannot penetrate an airspace guarded by the S 400 .

    So Russia is the bad guy for selling products that will allow China to protect itself?

    Perhaps India could buy S-400 and protect itself from Chinese 5th gen fighters and balance will be restored?

    The only reason why I say this because Mig-35, being a derivative of Mig-29 should be stunning dogfighter(better than MKI and Su-35 in my opinion), but A2G??

    Its EOTS is on par with that fitted to F-35 and has access to the full range of Russia air to ground munitions... what is it lacking?

    I don't know how confidence the IAF will have on its strike capabilities. Remember the Kargi war, the strike work was done by Mirage-2000 and the CAP was provided by Mig-29.

    The model Mig-29 you had in service was not fully multirole like the Mig-35 is... it is a bit like claiming the F-35 is better at air to ground because the F-15C was used and was used as an air to air fighter so the F-15E must be only good for air to air too.

    Only reason that IAF is hell bent on Rafale is what Mirage-2000 did in the Kargil War, period.

    Now, lets come to Rafale. It has proved it self in Libya as a very good A2G striker. And F-35 is more conceived as a striker than a fighter. That's why I said that the Indian MRCA deal is between these two western planes(in reality it was always going to be Rafale from the beginning, most of us knew it)!

    Yet the French refused to sell you more mirage 2000s and would only sell Rafale at a horrendous price. The MRCA competition was supposed to get something within a fixed budget... which it seems has more than doubled... sounds like India is getting screwed and all they can say is that at least they are not dependent on those evil Russians who might take advantage and try to screw us...

    Now, lets come to Rafale. It has proved it self in Libya as a very good A2G striker. And F-35 is more conceived as a striker than a fighter.

    The problem is that the Rafales will cost more than the Super Flankers... which seem to be more capable...

    IAF's heavy fighter(HCA)/air dominance= FGFA(Russian)

    MCA/striker = Rafale(French)

    LCA/interceptor= Tejas (Indian)

    Seems to me you are wasting the potential of the Flankers...

    IAF's heavy stealth fighter/to take and dominate the air= FFGA(Russian)

    Numbers heavy multirole fighterbomber = Su-30MKIM(Russian/Indian joint development that is basically an FFGAs electronics and avionics in a Su-30MKI shell... not stealthy as such but just as multirole and capable and with more weapons and cheaper to buy and operate)

    LCA/interceptor= Tejas (Indian)

    Cancel the Rafale and buy a French submarine or something...  Razz 

    Personally I don't think India should bother with a medium class aircraft... stealthy and non stealthy heavy, where the stealthy aircraft is expensive but capable, and the non stealthy is capable in other areas including payload capacity etc should be enough... the only thing missing is numbers... a light 5th gen fighter would be ideal to fill that niche.
    Garry, I totally concur with you. But as I previously said, IAF is hell bent on procuring Rafales(too much time/effort spent finalising the deal), and I doubt they agree with you?

    But regardless, a Russian fighter would be our top of the line fighter plane in the next decade, just like well previous 5 or 6 decades, lol.
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    Post  RTN on Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:54 am

    GarryB wrote:So Russia is the bad guy for selling products that will allow China to protect itself?

    Where and when did I say this ?????
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    Post  Sujoy on Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:17 am

    Indian Flanker wrote:(However, that situation will likely change once we acquire enough FGFAs, Rafales, and LCAs by the next decade).

    This is not going to happen for at least the next 20 years . The sanctioned strength of the IAF is around 42 squadrons . They are operating just 32 squadrons of which 13 squadrons consist of obsolete Mig 21 , 5 squadrons of obsolete Jaguars & 4 squadrons of obsolete Mig 27 .  

    FGFA will not join the IAF before 2020 . Serial production of LCA MK I has not begun yet .

    So to expect any radical improvements in the IAF is basically asking for the impossible .

    Indian Flanker wrote:Our naval Sea Harriers and Mig-29Ks can destroy anything Pakistan has got

    Sea Harriers have been scrapped .  Pakistan's radar network is more extensive than that of India's . Moreover Pakis are procuring aircrafts from China on a regular basis . The US  provides arms to Pakistan on very easy monetary terms  & the Gulf states provide Pakistan with easy money .

    Indian Flanker wrote:while our IAF's supere flankers are good enough to interdict any effort of Chinese airforce or navy.

    Again , the deal for the Super Sukhoi has not been signed . Even when it is signed they will find it difficult to enter Chinese airspace given the dense , overlapping nature of Chinese air defense which is further complimented by  extensive space based assets .
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:09 am

    While former colonized ethnic groups (Indians, Pakis, Chinese) squawk about annihilating each other, very few among their native populations realize that the reasons why they hate each other goes back to the divide-and-conquer tactics designed and implemented by the British Empire, to prolong their power in Asia. During the Sepoy Rebellion, British military intelligence carefully put out rumors that Hindu soldiers rifles were greased with Beef fat, while the British put out rumors that Muslim soldiers rifles were greased with Pig fat, and the during the Opium Wars, the British ordered Opium to be grown in Northern India and illicitly trafficked in to China, to weaken Chinese society, and to nurture anti-Indian sentiment amongst the Chinese population. The British calling card in India was to pit Hindus against Muslims against Sikhs. Another place where the British ruled and there was a significant Indian population was in South Africa, but this time they didn't pit the local population against each other by the means of religion, they pitted each other over race and ethnicity...South African Indians were pitted against South African Blacks against South African Dutch Afrikaners. In North America Anglophiles pitted Indigenous Amerindians against enslaved Blacks against downtrodden Irish Immigrants, in Latin America the Spaniards pitted the Mestizo population against the Amerindians, then against the enslaved Black population. The list goes on and on, and the day that the Chinese, Indian, and Pakistani populous realize that the animosity against each other is the work of Atlanticists like Zbignew Bryzinzski and Andrew Marshall, is the day they could truly be enlightened...but meanwhile they scream about destroying each other the reformed British Empire a.k.a. NATO laughs in it's proverbial easy chair eating popcorn, and NATO gloats that the persistent hatred in Asia is collectively weakening the main powers of Asia, strengthening NATO's neo-colonial position in Asia!
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:42 am

    Sujoy wrote:

    This is not going to happen for at least the next 20 years . The sanctioned strength of the IAF is around 42 squadrons . They are operating just 32 squadrons of which 13 squadrons consist of obsolete Mig 21 , 5 squadrons of obsolete Jaguars & 4 squadrons of obsolete Mig 27 .  
    Tejas MK2 shall replace those 14 odd Mig-21 squadrons.

    FGFA will not join the IAF before 2020 . Serial production of LCA MK I has not begun yet .
    Actually don't expect a fully operational squadron of FGFAs before 2025.

    And serial production of Tejas MK1(only 40 ordered by IAF) shall commence from this year itself. But anyway, IAF/IN are looking more towards Tejas MK2 as a number filler. And hopefully we should get them in decent numbers from 2020 onwards(if we involve our private companies like TATA into its serial production).

    So to expect any radical improvements in the IAF is basically asking for the impossible .
    Things will improve come 2020s if not in this decade.


    Sea Harriers have been scrapped .  Pakistan's radar network is more extensive than that of India's . Moreover Pakis are procuring aircrafts from China on a regular basis . The US  provides arms to Pakistan on very easy monetary terms  & the Gulf states provide Pakistan with easy money .
    All is true, but my point was that we can use our "Aircraft-carriers" to counter dual attack by China/Pak.

    Again , the deal for the Super Sukhoi has not been signed . Even when it is signed they will find it difficult to enter Chinese airspace given the dense , overlapping nature of Chinese air defense which is further complimented by  extensive space based assets .
    Our Flanker was always a "super-flanker" as it combined technology deveopled for the original super flanker "Su-37" into Su-30 airframe.

    Super-Sukhoi is a "mid life upgrade" which is bound to happen at some point. And as I said, we don't need to go attack China, just protect our mother land in case of the dragon attack. So, S-400 sale to China by Russia shouldn't bother us too much(nor the sale of Su-35S "Definitive flanker").
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    Post  Sujoy on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:01 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:While former colonized ethnic groups (Indians, Pakis, Chinese) squawk about annihilating each other, very few among their native populations realize that the reasons why they hate each other goes back to the divide-and-conquer tactics designed and implemented by the British Empire, to prolong their power in Asia. During the Sepoy Rebellion, British military intelligence carefully put out rumors that Hindu soldiers rifles were greased with Beef fat, while the British put out rumors that Muslim soldiers rifles were greased with Pig fat, and the during the Opium Wars, the British ordered Opium to be grown in Northern India and illicitly trafficked in to China, to weaken Chinese society, and to nurture anti-Indian sentiment amongst the Chinese population. The British calling card in India was to pit Hindus against Muslims against Sikhs.

    All true . However , we Indians are to be blamed . When the Brits landed in India they realized that a number of kingdoms were at war with one another . Hindus fighting Hindus , Muslims  fighting Muslims , Hindus fighting Muslim so on & so forth .

    The Brits simply capitalized on this situation . They started to provide conditional support to a couple of these kingdoms in their fight against one another . When both the sides had considerably weakened one another the Brits took over their territory .

    Infighting among ourselves prevented us from gaining independence from British rule for 200 years . Had that not been the case India would have become independent at the same time with the USA .

    In a letter to Gandhi , Tolstoy put it brilliantly

    A commercial company enslaved a nation comprising 200  millions. Tell this to a man free from superstition and he will fail to grasp what these words mean. What does it mean that 30  thousand men, not athletes but rather weak and ordinary people, have subdued two hundred million vigorous, clever, capable, and freedom-loving people? Do not the figures make it clear that it is not the English, but the Indians, who have enslaved themselves?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:58 am

    Garry, I totally concur with you. But as I previously said, IAF is hell bent on procuring Rafales(too much time/effort spent finalising the deal), and I doubt they agree with you?

    I think the term "flogging a dead horse" springs to mind.

    Rafales are not better than Flankers, and a future growth path they seem to be ignoring is once the FFGA is in service most of its systems and all of its weapons can be integrated into the Flankers to make them competitive and worth keeping in service.

    In comparison a force of 126 Rafales will likely remain pretty stagnant in terms of performance upgrades unless you want to spend a whole lot of money and upgrade them yourself.

    But regardless, a Russian fighter would be our top of the line fighter plane in the next decade, just like well previous 5 or 6 decades, lol.

    It is not about Russian or French... if the Russians tried to charge that amount for the Mig-35 I would say don't buy it either. The facts are that the Mig-35 seems to have met all the requirements except that it is another Russian origin aircraft. The Rafale didn't really meet all the requirements because they clearly lied about how much it would cost and they clearly weren't the lowest bidder.

    The claim is that the Rafale would be cheaper to operate which is amusing... if the purchase price is double then how can maintainence and parts be cheaper?

    When the Russians told India that their carrier was going to cost more because all the wiring and plumbing needed replacing there was outrage and claims of extortion... where are those claims now that the price of these aircraft has increased 5 times the increase of the Russian carrier deal?

    And it is not like the French didn't know how much the planes they make might cost...

    Where and when did I say this ?????

    You didn't, but the question mark on the end of the sentence makes it a question... not a statement. I am asking you if you think Russia is doing wrong selling products to its traditional customers... customers that kept it afloat when the Russian military and the warsaw pact military was no longer buying.

    If they don't sell they can't afford to upgrade and improve their production and products. In fact they will end up letting staff go.

    This is not going to happen for at least the next 20 years . The sanctioned strength of the IAF is around 42 squadrons . They are operating just 32 squadrons of which 13 squadrons consist of obsolete Mig 21 , 5 squadrons of obsolete Jaguars & 4 squadrons of obsolete Mig 27 .

    FGFA will not join the IAF before 2020 . Serial production of LCA MK I has not begun yet .

    So to expect any radical improvements in the IAF is basically asking for the impossible .

    Yeah... shame they don't have say 20 billion dollars to pump into the Tejas design to give it a few tweaks and get it into mass production in multiple factories...

    So, S-400 sale to China by Russia shouldn't bother us too much(nor the sale of Su-35S "Definitive flanker").

    It should be kept in mind that any Super Flanker that China buys will not be the same super flanker that Russia operates. Equally the S-400 system China buys wont be the same as the S-400 system that Russian armed forces deploy.

    Nothing personal, but now that they can afford it there is no reason to export the best any more.

    If China wants to pay to have a new SAM system developed on their money then they can have the best they can develop... just the same as the UAE probably got the top of the line Pantsir-S1... because they paid for it. Equally India got the best they could get with Su-30MKI and Brahmos because they paid for it.

    Buying off the shelf however means you don't always get the best stuff...


    And serial production of Tejas MK1(only 40 ordered by IAF) shall commence from this year itself. But anyway, IAF/IN are looking more towards Tejas MK2 as a number filler. And hopefully we should get them in decent numbers from 2020 onwards(if we involve our private companies like TATA into its serial production).

    They never seem to back themselves with funding... they should put more money into the Tejas Mk2 and get it into service. Any problems that come up can be better identified in operational service and the bugs and kinks fixed with upgrades and improvements.

    No aircraft is perfect and it would be stupid to expect Tejas to be any different, but as a numbers aircraft you need to back it financially and get it into the field in numbers and then monitor its performance and listen to feedback from pilots and ground crew.
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 21 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:02 pm

    RTN wrote:Once China procures the S 400 , whatever little advantage the Indians have will disappear . Even their Su 30 MKI and T 50 cannot penetrate an airspace guarded by the S 400 .
    And once we procure Stage 2 T-50s aka FGFA aka "F-22 killer", along with Super Su-30MKI(AESA radar, more powerful engine, 5th gen EW suite/avionics), and Rafales(with AESA radar and SPECTRA EW suite), and Tejas MK2s(AESA radar, and other hi-tech features), we are going to kick the a@@ of any other country that dares to attack India.

    And remember, any attack on India will no go down very well over Kremlin and the result could be dire for the world, not only sub-continent.

    Even in 1971 Indo-Pak war, US "Aircraft-carrier" that was sent to attack India craped its pants once it saw USSR nuclear sub-marine protecting India in bay of the Bengal.


    The Indo-Russian relationship ever since our independence is much more that just "buyer" and "seller". Even though the pro-US and anti Russia loby in India is now very vocal, and similarly Russians are not very happy with India looking more towards WEST, but the quintessence of trust is still there, and would never be lost trust me.


    And our military technology may look weak/obsolete, but mark my words in the next 10 years things are going to drastically change in all 4 branches of our armed forces. And it just ain't blind patriotism or optimism, but the call of the nation which has to be implemented by our leaders. And the "blue-print" for that plan already exists, and slowly but surely we are inching towards that plan.
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    Post  Indian Flanker on Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:47 am

    "Smart skin" for the PAK FA
    KRET creates a new electronic systems for T-50



    The parent company to establish electronic systems for the PAK FA is SRI instrument making. Tikhomirov included in KRET. Serial supplies a fifth generation fighter to the troops begin in 2016.

    PAK FA - Russia's fifth-generation multirole fighter. His division is engaged in the development of the United Aircraft Corporation - Sukhoi where fighter passes under the designation T-50.

    Development of promising fighter is gaining momentum. The parent company to establish electronic systems for the PAK FA is the Scientific Research Institute of Instrument them. Tikhomirov (NIIP). Radars developed at the institute, established on 70% of all Russian fighters.

    The first series of flights confirmed good technological advance development.

    Yuriy White, CEO of NIIP
    According to statements by Yuri White, CEO NIIP, electronic system PAK FA with active phased array (AESA) is a fundamentally new, different from the aircraft radar in the traditional sense. On the plane will be installed not only a basic radar AFAR, but as a set of other active and passive radar and optikolokatsionnyh stations. Similar stations spaced across the surface of the plane, actually making a "smart skin".

    New radar development NIIP contains 1526 transceiver modules, ensuring the aircraft greater range of detection, target tracking and multi-channel use missile weapons. Radar is built entirely on the Russian element basis, based on gallium arsenide nanoheterostructures and advanced technologies antenna systems with electronic beam control.

    New radar from NIIP was first unveiled at the MAKS-2009. Besides the main radar at MAKS-2009 also provided additional radar for future fighter L-band constructively posted throughout slat. Its application will not only boost immunity and combat survivability design, but also to a large extent reduce the visibility of technology neutralizes enemy aircraft.



    According to Yuri White, three aircraft systems from NIIP already connected to the test, two more planes will come to the end of the year. Tests of LII. Gromov uncrated in Akhtubinsk plan and they are there to begin in March and April, he said.

    Two sets of on-board radar already have a decent raid on prototypes - objects of T-50 and T-3-50-4, soon to join the third flight test - T-50-5 with the equipment on board the NIIP.

    "The first series of flights confirmed the possibility to achieve specified performance in the main modes" air-to-air "and" air-surface ", indicating good technological advance development. However, there is a set of unexpected problems that comes naturally to the pioneering development and to address their needs time "- said General Director NIIP.

    For export on the basis of the PAK FA with India created an export version of the aircraft, designated FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft - fifth-generation fighter). NIIP. Tikhomirov also involved in the development of Russian-Indian. According to Yuri White, Institute has already performed and defended sketchy and technical project and is ready to continue.

    "Submitted Materials" dry ", they, in turn, - the Indian side. Now comes the negotiating process. I think that the delays are mainly associated with financing of the project by the Indian side. I think the odds still large, "- said the company CEO.

    Scientific Research Institute of Instrument V.V.Tihomirova them - weapons control systems developer fighter, one of the main objectives of which is to suppress enemy air defense systems. In addition, SRI is developing anti-aircraft missiles of medium-range air defense ground forces, whose task is to protect against air attack. Included in KRET.
    http://rostec.ru/news/4513098
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 21 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:54 am

    Indian Flanker, check out this nice photoshop Very Happy :

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2 - Page 21 Sld3F6H

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