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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

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    quetzacol
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  quetzacol on Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:58 am






    watch 1:30

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:13 am

    Interesting... but that is where the main undercarriage is... there is no room for R-73s there.



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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:19 pm

    So the pakfa has 6 bays(4 in the middle and 1 at either side in the long slim protrusions beneath the wing). I find this a bit lacking though, only 6 targets could be engaged with missiles, perhaps the morphei could be small enough to fit 2 in a bay?

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:57 pm

    It is the standard capacity for everything 5th gen, though some have increased since. The two main bays are clearly large enough to contain 6 missiles of R-77 size...will they in the future? We will see.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Department Of Defense on Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:51 pm

    NPO Saturn should ideally focus on fully developing the PAK FA's AL 41F engine . This development is going on for eternity & yet there is nothing concrete that has yet come out.

    Just look at how long NPO Saturn took to develop the AL-55I turbofan for the HJT-36 IJT & how long it is taking to develop a 20% uprated thrust AL-31FP .

    They need to swing for the fences coz as of now things are moving very slowly .

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:01 pm

    Wasn't there a report recently about the engines going well and that they will be ready for the operational PAK FAs in 2016 or 2017 when they fully enter operational service?

    Most of the time the PAK FA will carry very light military payloads and with internal carriage there will be no external drag so the increased thrust engines are not really critical to its performance.

    I would say the new missiles being specifically developed for the aircraft will be much more important to how effective the aircraft will be.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Department Of Defense on Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:Wasn't there a report recently about the engines going well and that they will be ready for the operational PAK FAs in 2016 or 2017 when they fully enter operational service?
    Lockheed has also produced tons of such reports for the last 5 years about the F 35 doing extremely well . Reports mean nothing .

    GarryB wrote:Most of the time the PAK FA will carry very light military payloads and with internal carriage there will be no external drag so the increased thrust engines are not really critical to its performance.
    You kidding me ......right ? In that case why not have the engines of the SU 30 SM or SU 35S on the PAKFA ?

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:53 pm

    Lockheed has also produced tons of such reports for the last 5 years about the F 35 doing extremely well . Reports mean nothing .
    The F-35 is a huge international program with lots and lots of customers that have sunk lots of cash into this aircraft... press releases have a different meaning for it.

    When Saturn starts lying then we can question the validity of its reports... so far its track record is good.

    You kidding me ......right ? In that case why not have the engines of the SU 30 SM or SU 35S on the PAKFA ?
    Actually the engines on the Su-30SM and Su-35S are from the current PAK FA... but funding has been allocated to produce more powerful and more fuel efficient engines so why would they not introduce that engine when it is ready for the aircraft it was made for?

    More importantly why introduce it now when it is not ready and risk losing an expensive prototype?


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:36 pm

    thats the benefit of poded engine configuration in pak-fa unlike f-22 whose intakes and engines are of strict dimensions , the drawback is worse rcs ofcourse.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  JPJ on Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:03 pm

    Problems with Pak Fa?, Wath you think?

    http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2013-09-20/various-obstacles-confront-russias-t-50-project

    GarryB wrote:Actually the engines on the Su-30SM and Su-35S are from the current PAK FA... but funding has been allocated to produce more powerful and more fuel efficient engines so why would they not introduce that engine when it is ready for the aircraft it was made for?
    I think that Su 35 has a 117S (AL-41F1S) similar but not the same than the 117 (Al-41F-1) of the Pak Fa, and SM has the al 31FP the same of the MKI (or maybe a 31MF1)

    Thanks

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:26 pm

    Nothing wrong with PAK FA. The article is a joke seeing as they are taking some 'analyst' that somehow knows if they can mass produce new radar? And they state first one is hand assembled? They guys a tool. All brand new radars are hand assembled, and when the testing are finished, they move onto getting the facilities retooled to be able to run high volume production of said product. As well, they are claiming that they are using Indias contribution of FGFA for PAK FA development, when it has been known for quite sometime already that India has no contribution to PAK FA other than FgFA.

    Yeah, as well, introducing equipment for a 5th gen fighter, having to be 95% Russian components, is quite a feet, especially when development for such subsystems just started and are working out kinks before development.

    They dont list their sources nor do they remotely understand the difference between PAK FA and FGFA is the problem with that artical, which throws its credibility out the window.

    As well, you cant "hand make" composite materials. The way its dine on PAK FA like any other aircraft shows machenary has done it not hand. Or jet would look much like Irans so called fifth gen jet.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:28 pm

    Stupid article.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:38 pm

    Viktor wrote:Stupid article.
    Very much so. FGFA will help reduce cost of lets say radar, composite materials and engines over a long time for PAK FA, but not initially, and definately not now. As well, they wouldnt retool a facility to build radar that are still going through testing phase, I dont think any industry does that till the testing phase is done and they move onto full rate production. That is going to be some time. With Zhuk-A to end up on Ka-52k, radar components like the t/r modules will end up being cheaper over long term and thus reducing costs for the new aesa radar for pak fa.

    There are currently what? 4 pak fa's with only two of them with some avionics for testing purposes? They are jumping to conclusions far too early. Criticize in around 2017 if they still have not opened up a full rate production of the aesa radar and composite materials. But not now. They as well do not mention that composites have been in full rate production in Russia for a long time.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:45 pm

    That article is clearly written by someone with little actual knowledge of the program.
    Factual errors abound, regarding radar, engines...everything really.

    Pass.



    Meanwhile this pretty girl will keep flying...

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  JPJ on Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:21 pm

    Thank you. Its now clear for me

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:19 pm

    JPJ wrote:Thank you. Its now clear for me
    For example- the engines are not Su-35 engines, an the radar is not N-050.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Austin on Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:03 am

    Pitor PAK-FA write up from Air International issue

    http://www.crocko.com/EA00ED90007D40E4BF8A66E1F2378F23/AirInternational201310-PAK-FA.zip


    I need clarification on now the lower number of stages for new engine in hot and cold section will improve the performance ?

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  a89 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:09 am

    Pitor PAK-FA write up from Air International issue
    The AESA description is very interesting. Any comments on the program's pace. Do you also think that PAK-FA will fall behind schedule?

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:46 pm

    Thanks again Austin for the article.

    What is interesting for me is the misunderstanding of the financial aspect between India and Russia on FGFA. Since Indian Rupee dropped quite a bit, the price probably jumped high, and they are negotiating on lowering it? Well, they said it will be resolved by next year. But where is the 5 prototype indeed? Whats the hold up?

    As well, didnt know they are working on another radar for FGFA based on N-036. Interesting news.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:12 pm

    Is there a chance in the future for there to be separate T-50 variants, one having 3d TVC while the other one having 2d stealth nozzles ?

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:16 pm

    There was a theory floating around that I read years ago where T-50 is really a huge R&D project fir new technologies that can be applied to current gen and future aircrafts; which makes sense. New radar with new sensor fusion idea (aesa and optics) newer, more efficient engines, newer composite materials, new avionic suite using all Russian components. Most to all of these stuff can be applied to current gen aircrafts and makes way for the technology of the future. Although, having an aircraft with all those goodies, as good as it will be, will make it not only expensive to purchase, but also expensive to maintain. Theory is, there will be different categories or variants of PAK FA that will incorporate technologies to its specific roll and its cost. For instance, an interceptor variant, an air superiority variant and a Strike variant. Or they may forgo the strike and air superiority and just go with a true multipurpose variant. I dont know. But with the costs being high for it, and Russian defence spending is limited, than a variant by Mikoyan could be a good concept for a cheaper aircraft to field in numbers and to replace the ageing jets in service now.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Firebird on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:36 pm

    sepheronx wrote:There was a theory floating around that I read years ago where T-50 is really a huge R&D project fir new technologies that can be applied to current gen and future aircrafts; which makes sense. New radar with new sensor fusion idea (aesa and optics) newer, more efficient engines, newer composite materials, new avionic suite using all Russian components. Most to all of these stuff can be applied to current gen aircrafts and makes way for the technology of the future. Although, having an aircraft with all those goodies, as good as it will be, will make it not only expensive to purchase, but also expensive to maintain. Theory is, there will be different categories or variants of PAK FA that will incorporate technologies to its specific roll and its cost. For instance, an interceptor variant, an air superiority variant and a Strike variant. Or they may forgo the strike and air superiority and just go with a true multipurpose variant. I dont know. But with the costs being high for it, and Russian defence spending is limited, than a variant by Mikoyan could be a good concept for a cheaper aircraft to field in numbers and to replace the ageing jets in service now.
    I've actually thought about this too.

    I mean the T50 sounds utterly phenomenal. So much so, I wonder, why is it inviting India to the table? (I dont know the level of tech sharing, but anyway...)

    I think the numbers plane will be the Mig LFMS. Even the spend happy Americans aren't prepared to send an F-22 into combat, or even produce more.

    Another aspect is that military and air doctrine is constantly changing. Hypersonics, energy weapons, drones, new SAMs, radar, new enemies, new friends. Its never gonna be a showdown F22 vs T50. There are so many other factors.

    I think military issues are often about image, or even bluster (eg USA's Star Wars bullshit)
    I dont think Sukhoi are bullshitters. Far from it infact. I believe the T50 will be magnificent. But Russia can say "look how good this is, do you really want us to produce lots of them, maybe even sell them to others? We can be friends, or you can be stupid and be our adversary.."

    T50 is a bargaining chip. And I think it will be a very strong one.

    Its interesting just how good a plane the Su-35 is. And ofcourse that is only a 4.whatever G plane.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:56 pm

    Austin wrote:Pitor PAK-FA write up from Air International issue

    http://www.crocko.com/EA00ED90007D40E4BF8A66E1F2378F23/AirInternational201310-PAK-FA.zip


    I need clarification on now the lower number of stages for new engine in hot and cold section will improve the performance ?
    It would means lighter engine, combined with higher bypass ratio (means the engine can suck more air) engine plus higher rotor inlet temperature (after combustion in combustion chamber) will result in high thrust to weight ratio.. higher compared to other fighter engine such as the basic AL-31F.

    F-22's PW/F-119 have its power in similar manner.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:09 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a chance in the future for there to be separate   T-50 variants, one having 3d TVC while the other one having 2d stealth nozzles ?
    I think they will settle on one variant when the definitive engines are made. No point in complicating the situation, plus extensive comparisons between the nozzle types have already been done.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:14 am

    I need clarification on now the lower number of stages for new engine in hot and cold section will improve the performance ?
    Fewer parts means lighter, simpler design, less complex design, plus simpler air flow.

    A feature of newer western engines is often fewer stages and fewer parts to reduce weight and cost and simplify the design.

    One example would be instead of making a hub with turbine blades attached to it... making a disk that includes the blades as part of the disk.

    It means the blades can be made stronger, which makes the engine more resistent to bird strike, and easier and cheaper to maintain... and indeed simpler... but harder to make properly.


    The AESA description is very interesting. Any comments on the program's pace. Do you also think that PAK-FA will fall behind schedule?
    I would say the article on the Mig-35 was more interesting...

    At MAKS 2013, the Phazotron company showed another variant of the Zhuk-A radar, initially designated FGA35 (3D), with new transceiver modules made from LTCC (low temperature co-fired ceramics) technology. The array is much thinner and lighter than the Zhuk-AE variant. Each module is 13mm (0.5in) deep, several times less than those used on the Zhuk-AE. The array is air-cooled (the Zhuk-AE is – liquid-cooled) while the impulse power of each module is 5W. Yuri Guskov, Phazotron’s designer general promises the handover of the new radar for evaluation on the MiG-35 in 2014.
    Is there a chance in the future for there to be separate T-50 variants, one having 3d TVC while the other one having 2d stealth nozzles ?
    Yes.

    I mean the T50 sounds utterly phenomenal. So much so, I wonder, why is it inviting India to the table? (I dont know the level of tech sharing, but anyway...)
    India is a friend, but also India can contribute to the further development of the aircraft... even though they will be getting a version of it in the same way they got a version of the Flanker. Keep in mind that without the work on the Su-30MKI the Su-35 would not be the aircraft that it is... or will be.

    Working with India will improve the aircraft in many areas even if it will make things more difficult in some areas... a demanding customer often leads to a much better final product.

    Look at the Pantsir-S1... it was a warmed over Tunguska initially which the Russian military accepted because it was good enough and they didn't want to spend more money on replacing the old sensors and systems and just upgraded everything. UAE wanted more and paid for new sensors and systems and the result is a much better system overall... it is not the case that UAE can teach Russia about making SAMs, just that their requirements were far more demanding than the Russian military as it already has a range of other supporting SAMs so the lower performance was not really a handicap. The result is a much more rhobust and capable system for all the countries that buy it.

    ts never gonna be a showdown F22 vs T50.
    I hope so...

    I think they will settle on one variant when the definitive engines are made. No point in complicating the situation, plus extensive comparisons between the nozzle types have already been done.
    I agree... for the Russian military, I think they will settle for one design... or perhaps two... one for the air force and one for carrier use perhaps.

    For export however I think they will allow the customer to choose... though they might leave the development of alternatives to the customer as well which might make such a choice very expensive...


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