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    MiG-29K: News and info

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    runaway
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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  runaway on Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:50 pm

    An improved domestic Chinese helmet mounted sight (HMS) system first appeared on J-11A(SU-27), not clear if its mounted on J-15.

    "TAIPEI — In an unusual departure for mainland Chinese-language media, the Beijing-based Sina Military Network (SMN) criticized the capabilities of the carrier-borne J-15 Flying Shark as nothing more than a “flopping fish.”

    On Sept. 22, the state-controlled China Daily Times reported the new aircraft carrier Liaoning had just finished a three-month voyage and conducted over 100 sorties of “various aircraft,” of which the J-15 “took off and landed on the carrier with maximum load and various weapons.” This report was also carried on the official Liberation Army Daily.

    Contradicting any report by official military or government media is unusual in China given state control of the media.

    What sounded more like a rant than analysis, SMN, on Sept. 23, reported the new J-15 was incapable of flying from the Liaoning with heavy weapons, “effectively crippling its attack range and firepower.”

    The fighter can take off and land on the carrier with two YJ-83K anti-ship missiles, two PL-8 air-to-air missiles, and four 500-kilogram bombs. But a weapons “load exceeding 12 tons will not get it off the carrier’s ski jump ramp.” This might prohibit it from carrying heavier munitions such as PL-12 medium-range air-to-air missiles.

    To further complicate things, the J-15 can carry only two tons of weapons while fully fueled. “This would equip it with no more than two YJ-83K and two PL-8 missiles,” thus the “range of the YJ-83K prepared for the fighter will be shorter than comparable YJ-83K missiles launched from larger PLAN [People’s Liberation Army Navy] vessels. The J-15 will be boxed into less than 120 [kilometers] of attack range.”

    Sounds like the Chinese soon will order a few MiG29K, then copy and build 100 more..

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:10 pm

    runaway wrote:An improved domestic Chinese helmet mounted sight (HMS) system first appeared on J-11A(SU-27), not clear if its mounted on J-15.

    "TAIPEI — In an unusual departure for mainland Chinese-language media, the Beijing-based Sina Military Network (SMN) criticized the capabilities of the carrier-borne J-15 Flying Shark as nothing more than a “flopping fish.”

    On Sept. 22, the state-controlled China Daily Times reported the new aircraft carrier Liaoning had just finished a three-month voyage and conducted over 100 sorties of “various aircraft,” of which the J-15 “took off and landed on the carrier with maximum load and various weapons.” This report was also carried on the official Liberation Army Daily.

    Contradicting any report by official military or government media is unusual in China given state control of the media.

    What sounded more like a rant than analysis, SMN, on Sept. 23, reported the new J-15 was incapable of flying from the Liaoning with heavy weapons, “effectively crippling its attack range and firepower.”

    The fighter can take off and land on the carrier with two YJ-83K anti-ship missiles, two PL-8 air-to-air missiles, and four 500-kilogram bombs. But a weapons “load exceeding 12 tons will not get it off the carrier’s ski jump ramp.” This might prohibit it from carrying heavier munitions such as PL-12 medium-range air-to-air missiles.

    To further complicate things, the J-15 can carry only two tons of weapons while fully fueled. “This would equip it with no more than two YJ-83K and two PL-8 missiles,” thus the “range of the YJ-83K prepared for the fighter will be shorter than comparable YJ-83K missiles launched from larger PLAN [People’s Liberation Army Navy] vessels. The J-15 will be boxed into less than 120 [kilometers] of attack range.”

    Sounds like the Chinese soon will order a few MiG29K, then copy and build 100 more..
    I just HATE the chinese of copying aircraft they almost have no aircraft they madr 100% self they even copied the f-35!!!!! (Just forgot the name) so maybe an future chinese carrier has j15 and mig 29 copy! So an indian mig-29K Will be Able to destroy a J-15 thats Nice!

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:28 pm

    Id rather have them copy than innovate, one time they did it was gunpowder- and we all know the rest.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:04 pm

    Does anyone have information about the carrier strike groups of INS Vikramaditya (and in the future Vikrant) and that of the liaoning?

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  runaway on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:42 pm

    16 MiG29K and up to 10 helicopters is standard airwing on the Vikramaditya.

    Liaoning can take up to 30 fixed wing aircraft and 24 helicopters. Altough not 30 J-15 they are to big, maybe as the K around 14.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:32 am

    Everyone copies everyone if they have an advanced enough industrial base. If any advanced foreign military technology enters Russia; no way it's going to be left alone. Why should it be any different for China?

    The USSR and US copied each others designs and ideas during the Cold War; the USSR in fact made a direct copy of the B-29 (i.e. Tu-4) and several other vehicles in the late 40s. As soon as one came up with a new idea - it was copied; for instance - America took the Soviet implementations of the ICBM, IFV, Anti-ship missiles and created its own versions. Of course the whole anti-ship missile thing was actually first tried out by Nazi Germany; the Soviets merely popularised it.

    In more modern times; NATO managed to get its hands on the newest Soviet tech and engineers; T-80s, Yak-141 designs, early S-300 & MiG-29 versions, etc... and has taken them apart for all that they were worth and absorbed everything useful into its own designs.
    Russia is following suit - UAVs, light armoured vehicles, radios, electronic systems, etc... all bought from abroad with the agreement of the host countries; sometimes only in the single digits, which are then taken apart and learned from by Russian engineers and specialists; or otherwise just produced under license; with the eventual aim to incorporate these technologies into the next generation of Russian products anyway.

    China's only real crime is not doing this legally so to speak; with the agreement of the host country. I'm sure that Russia was more than happy to have China pick apart its Su-27 designs.. as long as China bought the 100 Su-27s or so that it promised to buy as per the contract.
    The trouble was that China cancelled after only a few deliveries; and this is what's really responsible for the Russia indignation over that episode; not the actual fact that the Chinese were going to try to learn everything they could from weapon systems that they fully paid for.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:39 am

    I almost totally agree FP, but the thing is that often the Chinese directly copy, whereas most others adapt the copied area of technology to improve their own technology.

    For instance at the start of the cold war the Soviets had not focussed on long range strategic bombers... the west will say they copied the B-29 because they had no four engined bombers which is pure ignorance because in the 1930s the Soviets had more four engined bombers than the rest of the world combined... their problem was that they rapidly became obsolete as technology rapidly moved forward during WWII and it would have taken 5-10 years to develop their own modern design... the faster option was to copy what landed in their lap and they didn't have time for anything else.
    Of course in the end the Tu-4 was a relative failure and apart from circular pressurised fuselage design lent little to future Soviet and Russian bombers.

    The irony... well look up the ANT-25 and find out about the state of Soviet long range aircraft in the 1930s.... flight range of 12,500km...

    The Chinese on the other hand tend to completely copy something so it is clear what it is derived from, whereas the Soviets only copied when it was necessary... The B-29/Tu-4 was time, the Sidewinder missile was also time as the sidewinder was so radically different... it was simple and basic and modular whereas previous Soviet missiles were hand built and complicated messes.. the sidewinder had a seeker in the nose, then forward controls and servos to move those controls, then the warhead , and then rocket motor and then rear controls. The AA-1 Alkali had rocket exhausts between its main fins with the warhead in then front area and transmit/receive unit in the rear for the command guidance system and everything else crammed in where it fitted.



    Regarding the Shlem:



    This is it here and the Chinese version looks rather a lot like it in my opinion...



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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:52 am

    Liaoning battle group:

    Taipei, May 4 (CNA) Escort ships for China's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, are quietly assembling at Qingdao Harbor and the carrier battle group is suspected to be sailing out soon, a Hong Kong-based Chinese-language newspaper said Saturday.

    Wen Wei Po said in its online version that the carrier battle group might comprise the Liaoning, four type 052C or 052D destroyers, two type 052B destroyers, two to four type 054A escort ships, one or two type 093 nuclear submarines and one supply ship.

    The reports also said the aircraft carrier could carry 22 J-15 fighter planes, four to six Z-18 early warning planes and around 12 Ka-27 anti-submarine helicopters.

    Judging from the formation, the carrier group could form three lines of anti-air defenses, the first being formed by the Z-18s and J-15s and the second by the Hongqi-9 surface-to-air missiles aboard the 052C/D anti-air destroyers.

    The third anti-air line will be formed by the SA-N-12 mid- and close-range anti-aircraft missiles aboard the 052B destroyers and Hongqi-16 mid-and close-range anti-aircraft missiles aboard the four 054A escort ships. The formation could handle 24 attacking targets simultaneously.

    The reports said anti-submarine work is one of the group's other major missions, with the outer line of defense formed by its 093 nuclear submarines, and its middle line by the 052B destroyers and 054A escort ships.

    The O54A escort ships are each equipped with eight anti-submarine missiles.

    The J-15 fighters could be equipped with two anti-ship missiles each. As the Liaoning can mobilize 12 planes in one sortie, 24 anti-ship missiles could be fired in each sortie.

    The report also touched on the group's anti-ship capacity.

    Its 0522 destroyers are each equipped with eight Yingji-62 anti-ship missiles, which have a range of over 300 km.

    In addition, the 052B and 054A ships are equipped with Yingji-83 missiles with a range of nearly 200 km. The flotilla has 64 Yingji-83 missiles.

    The nearly 100 anti-ship missiles will form a daunting combat capacity.

    The report said the Liaoning battle group's capacity could well overwhelm light carrier formations and non-carrier surface ship formations such as Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force.

    If supported by shore-based large early warning planes, refueling planes and anti-submarine planes, it could even counter a single U.S. carrier battle group.

    But the report also said that currently, the carrier group still suffers the drawbacks of insufficient capacity of its escort ships, insufficient capacity of its equipped weapons and low capacity of its supply ships.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:I almost totally agree FP, but the thing is that often the Chinese directly copy, whereas most others adapt the copied area of technology to improve their own technology.
    Generally speaking yes, but there are perfectly good reasons for that too. The Chinese are not yet at the technological level of US, Russian and European arms producers in many areas; engines, sensors/electronics, materials, etc... It's far quicker and safer to take an advanced proven design and copy it, enabling it to be rapidly introduced for their own forces; rather than:
    a. Attempt to improve upon and extensively modify the original design into their own version
    b. Try and fit lessons from Western/Russian designs or systems into their own programs

    Simply put - due to their lesser experience and technology such options are unlikely to yield something as good as the original version of that weapon system, much less better. The direct copy thus makes far more sense; you can learn a lot just from taking something apart and copying it too; no need to reinvent the wheel as they say What a Face 

    Of course; this only really applies to the latest designs. When all the Chinese can acquire are old examples of obsolete Soviet or Western hardware; they are just as likely to start their own indigenous programs (e.g. the WZ-10; started/accelerated when the Chinese attempts to get hold of the Mi-24 in 90/91 from Russia or Bulgaria, Mi-28 in mid-90s and Ka-50 in 2000 failed), or make extensive modifications and improvements upon existing designs rather than carbon-copy them (e.g. the Chinese Shenzhou, an enhanced, heavily improved re-design of the Soviet Soyuz)

    They are catching-up however; so whatever they're doing seems to be working; copy a whole load of gear, saving money on R&D that can be used to copy more things instead. Over the next 10-20 years I would expect that they develop more and more of their unique product lines, and copy less; already they are starting to progress into JVs with Russia such as with the new superheavy helicopter they want to make; and are chiefly interested in importing the very latest tech such as Su-35s and S-400s; but it looks like the technology from those systems is more likely to go into their own fighter and air defense programs, rather than being copied bolt for bolt.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:52 am

    But they need to formulate their own needs and requirements and develop weapons and systems to meet those needs, because then they will be formulating their own tactics as well... if you copy my weapons and therefore also my way of fighting I am far more likely to understand how to defeat you... because if I know anything it is my own strengths and weaknesses which I can exploit to beat you.

    I agree they can do more than just copy, though they still do that it is often for the export market.


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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  mack8 on Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:42 pm

    First MiG-29K for VMF enters flight testing:
    http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/news/2013/1022/141520882/detail.shtml

    But no pictures?

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  mack8 on Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:44 pm

    Thought this one might as well be posted here too, as it's an important milestone for RSK MiG.

    First MiG-29K for VMF enters flight testing:
    http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/news/2013/1022/141520882/detail.shtml

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:55 am

    The VMF likely had a play with the Indian Mig-29Ks , but these will be the models built for them so it will likely have all new (to the VMF) modern weapons so this will be very good.


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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:43 am

    Meh, I swear I saw 1-2 MiG-29s buzzing around my base round about Summer '11 onwards. Not always easy to tell a Su-33 from a MiG-29; but I think they flew close enough for me to be confident I made a positive ID.

    The Kuznetsov's airwing (279th KIAP) was based about 3km away (their home; the Kuzya is only their home away from home) and they were flying over and around us every other day; so I can only assume the MiG-29s were deployed to the same airbase - it was the only strip around for many miles.

    Funny thing is that as I recall - the MiG-29s were painted in Strizh colours. Either that or something close; like the top of the fuselage was red with an outline of a huge white star over the top of it. Something like that.

    Based on this - I don't think they were MiG-29Ks; in any case I'm not sure if there were any such aircraft in Russia at the time.

    Could it be that they were lent a couple MiG-29 aircraft, and had instructors from the Strizhi or some other expert pilots instructing and familiarizing them with the aircraft ahead of the introduction of the MiG-29K?
    Would make sense - they are Russia's only shipborne fighter regiment and one of the most critical and likely to see action; so the high quality of their training is paramount.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:36 am

    The first ship fighter aircraft MiG-29 k and MiG-29KUB arrived in the Russian Navy.

    The Naval Aviation of the Navy received four serial ship fighter generation "4 ++". Under the terms of the contract, "RAC «MiG» must deliver to the Ministry of defence of 24 marine fighter aircraft MiG-29 k/KUB until 2015.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20131125/979421180.html

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    Delivery of new MIG-29K/KUB for russian navy.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:32 pm

    MOSCOW, November 25 (RIA Novosti) – The Russian navy has taken delivery of its first four series-produced MiG-29K/KUB carrier based fighter jets, the Defense Ministry said Monday.

    “The MiG aircraft-manufacturing corporation has handed over two MiG-29K single-seat and two MiG-29KUB twin-seat carrier-based fighter aircraft,” a spokesman said.

    The Russian Defense Ministry signed a contract with MiG in February 2012 for delivery of 20 MiG-29K and four MiG-29KUB fighters by 2015.

    The aircraft will be deployed on Russia's sole serving carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, based in Murmansk with the Northern Fleet.

    The Admiral Kuznetsov currently operates Sukhoi Su-33 naval fighter aircraft.

    The MiG-29K is a naval variant of the MiG-29 Fulcrum fighter jet, and has folding wings, an arrester tail-hook, strengthened airframe and multirole capability thanks to its Zhuk-ME slotted array radar, MiG says.

    Unlike the Su-33, which is capable of air defense missions only, the MiG-29K can be armed with a wide variety of air-to-surface as well as air-to-air weaponry and laser-designation systems.

    The aircraft is also capable of “buddy” refueling other MiG-29Ks using the PAZ-1MK refueling pod.

    So far, the aircraft has only entered service with India, for use on the refitted Russian-built carrier INS Vikramaditya, which was handed over to the Indian Navy on November 15.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  mack8 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:19 pm

    No photos of the first 4 MiG-29K/KUB in VMF colours?  cry  Where will they be based, at Yeisk?

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  SOC on Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:47 pm

    mack8 wrote:No photos of the first 4 MiG-29K/KUB in VMF colours?  cry  Where will they be based, at Yeisk?

    They've installed the ski-jump and arrested landing strip at Yeysk and are resurfacing the parking areas and building a bunch of new aircraft shelters (I see 25 foundations currently). So, they could go there, sure. Or, they may well simply go there for training but have their permanent home at Severomorsk-3, displacing the Su-33s and making it simpler to join with the carrier for deployment.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  TR1 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:30 pm

    http://i.imgur.com/cKLX1GC.jpg

    Rear cockpit of Indian KUB.

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  Viktor on Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:40 pm

    Nice  thumbsup 

    Russian Aircraft Corporation "MiG" plans in 2014 to put the Defense Ministry next 10 decked MiG-29K/KUB

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:33 am

    About the Vikramaditya a while ago the standard airwing was 16 mig-29k fighters and a bunch of helicopters then it changed in 24 mig-29k and now it is 30 mig-29k now can someone tell me what the standard airwing is when patrolling in the indian ocean region?

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:43 am

    AFAIK the original carrier had a standard load of something like 16 Yaks but could also carry something like 20 Helix sized Helicopters along with those Yaks.

    What I suspect has happened is that because the Migs are more potent than the Helicopters that in addition to changing the internal design to allow more fixed wing aircraft to be carried... with the removal of all the front deck weapons and under deck ammo and equipment that they likely have more room for aircraft and have also likely changed the ratio of aircraft to more fixed wing aircraft to improve performance.


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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:07 pm

    Then something else what short range and long range air to air missiles is the indian navy using on her mig-29k's?

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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:03 am

    The Indian Navy will likely keep the R-73 and R-77 combination, I rather doubt they would pay for combat trials and integration for French missiles to also be carried like the Indian Air Force would.


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    Re: MiG-29K: News and info

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:00 am

    The hangar has place for 12 mig-29k's and 6 helo's that would mean that on the flight deck there need to be place for 12 mig-29k's and 6 helo's then you would have a total 24 mig-29k's, 4 ka-31 and 8 ka-27.
    But 12 mig's and 6 helo's is alot to park on the flight deck!
    If you want the landing area to be free you can park 11 mig's at the front and back of the bridge.
    So where do you leave all the other aircraft??

    And for garry: the hangar is as small as it was they didnt made it larger.


    http://www.jeffhead.com/worldwideaircraftcarriers/vikram-16.jpg

    And can someone tell me what weapon load this is??

    http://www.migavia.ru/im/photo/17_MiG-29KUB_main.jpg

    http://defencelover.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/mig-29-at-ins-vikramaditya1.jpg



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