MIG-21, MIG-25, MIG-29SMT. Your views

hi and thanks for replying, i garry had the right idea the Mig-29SMT would be a better replacement, and the mention of tejas and t-50 is another good option its a pity the Yak-130 didnt have a faster speed bringing it up to t-50 level. the SU-30 is good but more expensive than the Mig-29SMT.
it amazes me how many older soviet aircraft that is still operational, the Mig-25, Mig-23/27, SU-22, SU-24, SU-25, although i believe the SU-25 is still in production?(anyone confirm this) but this a very different aircraft and i wonder if their will ever be a replacement (USA is thinking of removing its A-10's). The Mig-29 and SU-27 of course are older aircraft but have had some serious upgrades and various variants produced as well as still being in production. You also have the Mig-31 which is getting old and plans are to replace this in 2028, it will be interesting to see what they will replace it with.

Hello. well, afaik the Mig-21 was an excellent short range, ground-guided interceptor. Very good in climb performance and speed. It was the counterpart of the F-104 and the EE Lightning: very fast climbers. The F-104 in scramble duty in Italy was able to reach 20.000 feet three minutes after the alarm. The Mig-21 was the Soviet F-104, performances "F-16-like", but 20 years before ...
Deficiencies of all those aircrafts (AFAIK): range and beyond-visual-range capacity, but because it was not required in their early specifications.
Today I don't know. In Italy the F-104S ASA (weapons system upgrade) was retired in 2004 and the Italy had to rent old F-16A until the arrival of the EFA Typhoon. An upgraded Mig-21 today maybe similar to an F-16 or slightly less: it should see in what system the Mig-21 should operate. Actually, I think that today what matters are the computers and weapons, rather than the Aircraft itself.

GarryB wrote:6 potent air to air missiles, plus a centreline fuel tank would be good enough for interception missions. For strike missions replace four of the AAMs with Kh-38 missiles or guided bombs.

Hey Garry, any idea what is the substrate material (IR transparent) in a heat-seeking missile's ( R-73 etc) optical modulation disk?

hey i was wanting to know peoples views on the Mig-25 as a strike aircraft the MiG-25RB had the capability but was it ever used as such and was it any good at it?

d_taddei2 wrote:hey i was wanting to know peoples views on the Mig-25 as a strike aircraft the MiG-25RB had the capability but was it ever used as such and was it any good at it?

Iraqis used it for bombing Iran quite regularly from about 1985-88. I am guessing a couple thousand sorties in total. This was mostly after the TU-22 were deemed too vulnerable to fly into Tehran airspace when the Iranians improved their high altitude air defences around there.

In terms of "effect"... well I'd say it was a cheaper way of area bombardment than the upgraded SCUD missiles at least. They were never accurate though and simply used in a tit-for-tat intimidation between the warring parties since Iraqi cities were much closer to Iran's border and were thus easier for the Iranians to bomb. Iraqis had to resort to using more "exotic" assets like TU-22B and MiG25RB to "match" the Iranian city bombardments.

One thing going for it though... is that despite Iranian efforts to defend Tehran from politically damaging aerial bombardment (HQ2 SAM, RAPIER, I-HAWK as well as F4E and F14A to defend Tehran) they only managed to shoot down 1 or 2 of the MiG25RB during bombing missions spanning almost 4 years of bombardment.

The aircraft flew in singles all the way to Tehran and back without escort or ESM and beyond Iraq's GCI control. Which was a testament to the capability and survivability of the aircraft.

No wonder that Iraqis were interested in replacing the MiG25 with MiG31E in 1990... but then the gulf war happened.

d_taddei2 wrote:hey i was wanting to know peoples views on the Mig-25 as a strike aircraft the MiG-25RB had the capability but was it ever used as such and was it any good at it?

Drop a nuclear bomb at very high altitude and speed: you can launch the bomb at 50 km from the target and turn back.
Obviously no one launched nuclear bombs (I think), so the Iraqis used Mig-25RB with conventional ordnance: AFAIK also (European) Mk-84, until arrived FAB250 e FAB500T. An Iraqi attack about that I read was that on the Iranian military flight school at Teheran Farahabad, in Doshan-Tappeh. Very low altitude entrance, supersonic climb, acceleration up to maximum altitude and speed and bomb launch at about 21.000 m, at 40 Km from the target. The system was built for nuclear attack, so from long distance it wasn't very accurate, so bombs hit also a civil district.

this pretty remarkable out of the top 10 most fighter aircraft in service in the world the Mig-21 ranked sixth with 551 operational aircraft.

source

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151223/1032208907/russia-warplanes-report.html

d_taddei2 wrote:
Looking for people views on the following:

The MIG-21 being the most produced supersonic jetaircraft in the world, and having an extremely long production run, theres still many of the aircraft in service with various countries around the world and with the many upgrades available, my thoughts are does this aircraft still have a future or use with the armies that still field it or should it be taken out of service??????

In my view, the Mig-21 is an extraordinary successful engineering for this last 60 decades. With a fair upgrade the Mig-21 -do not laugh , and do not mock please-it is still effective and extremely redoubtable until now.

The great question is on all our minds :
In dogfight, Is the Mig-21 effective against F-16 -A, C, ....- fighting falcon, or viper, or block -50 etc....- ?
These past years I find myself pondering by this question. In fact we must to see in the past and definitely forget western version about the Mig-21. We must forget all propaganda whatever it is.
During Vietnam war the Mig-21 was highly effective against all US fighters. 60 Mig-21 downed by F-4 , against at least 130 F-4 Phantom II destroyed by Mig-21. This incredible ratio could be explained by the bad conception of US aircrafts F-4,  Crusader, Corsair A7, F-100, F-105 etc...
A heavy, fat muti-role fighter bomber that must do all, and anything,  designed around a cumbersome  most of the time pointless radar, relying on its ineffective air-air missiles -ratio of success contrary to the western hype never exceed in the best case 5% -, against an agile, mono-role, light fighter designed only for interception, and dogfighting, especially relying on its effective cannon.
The success of the Mig-21 was confirmed during october 1973 war, where egyptian, syrian, algerian, iraqi Mig-21 crushed israeli, US fighters like Mirage III -the rare israeli's asset very effective, with its Mystere-, and F-4 Phantom. During this conflict, the despair urgency of the situation is such that, US and Israel threatened to use nuclear weapons. Again the Mig-21 prove a real effectiveness in design, conception, and philosophy of the combat.

Soviet upgraded their very effective Mig-21 with a new engine, and avionics, the name was Mig-21 Bis.





The fear of US was high, they developed F-15, F-16, F-18 against the Mig-21's threat. Now, what about against the new generation of US fighters ? Are they really effective ? The only data we have was the battle of the Bekaa occurred in Lebanon in 1982. It is useful too, to ignore propaganda of US, Israel, Syria, and Soviet Union. And let's focus on what's happened on the ground. Indeed, what's happened exactly ? Far of the israeli's supid fantasies about their so-called success -they claimed 100 syrians aircrafts downed against 0 losses, nevertheless the ground witnessed the contrary-, that turned to be completely false, as a whole fighters of Syria AF annihilated 42 aircraft of Israeli AF (including, as minimum, 5 F-15A and 6 F-16A) and one remote piloted aircraft in the course of dogfights from the 6th to the 12th of June (that day cease-fire has been signed). At the same time Syria AF lost 47 aircraft ( 4 Мig-23МS, 6 Мig-23МF, 26 Mig-21 bis and 11 Mig-21 MF). 7 SU-22М fighter-bombers and few Мig-23 BN were downed too.

As you can see at least 6 F-16 were downed during this battle.



As you can realize the heavy number of 26 effective Mig-21 Bis, why ?
The question now what were exactly the syrian Mig-21 Bis' soviet export ? Here is the response :

Here are different Mig-21 Bis, those for soviet air force, and those for export:


Let's zoom on export, and especially those for syrian air force :


It is in fact syrian's Mig-21 are a downgraded Mig-21 Bis, they are different from those intended for soviet air force without air air missiles, and certainly without fair avionics like effective MAWS, and downgraded radar too.
If you add the facts that Israeli ground forces were equipped with sam, and...the effective anti-aircraft gun M-61 Vulcan.


Mounted on israeli's M-113

There were several syrian fighter bombers downed by the israeli ground M-61 Vulcan. Notice that Israel lost beside their F-15, F-16, and F-4 E Phantom II, an E-2C Hawkeye.


After the loses -never admitted by israel for obvious geopolical raisons.- Israel asked to Syria cease fire. June 12, 1982, immediately after the downed E-2 C the cease fire was applied. Notice Israel has a politic to systematically deny any losses whatever it is.

If you remove the number of fighters downed by the ground, and fighter dedicated as slight bombers and not fighters, and you compare the with the real duals that occurred, I won't be surprised to see syrian air force having a slight advantage. In fact, if we remove the Mig-21 Bis intended to be as slight bomber, and you leave only the pure fighters, you can easily realized, that neither the F-16, nor the F-15  provided to Israel a real superiority.
Concerning the F-16 the doubt raised again during Desert Storm in 1991, this supposed dogfighter did not succeed to down any Iraqi aircraft. Even the A-10 succeeded by downing a Mil-8, but not the F-16. During the Balkan's war, the F-16 indeed down few serbian aircrafts, but, US coalition outnumbered -as it was during Desert Storm- serbian malfunctioning fighters -where serbian could barely deploy less than 30 fighters, meanwhile US coaltion built up 900-.

My conviction.
The Mig-21, 60 years after, with a fair avionic upgrade is still more than never a redoubtable fighter able to match any US fighter, including the F-35. Meanwhile, the F-16 was a total faillure. In each exercise the Mig-21 demonstrated that it could really be a game changer, even against the F-15 C -see Cope India 2004-.

Intersting facts about mig21 bison. With a newer AESA radar and newer stealth technology could do very well against 4+ generation aircrafts. They shoud have offer these upgrades to egypt when they signed mig-35 contracts.

defence pk forum wrote:Improvents on the baseline Mig-21 to make the bison :

>multifunctional coherent Doppler-pulse airborne radar "Kopyo" with slot antenna
> onboard digital computer
>helmet-mounted target designato
>double screen (HUD and CRT) display system
>stores management system
>inertial navigation system
>air data computer system, digital
>short range radio navigation system
>onboard radio command receiving equipmen
> new flare dispenser (26 mm 120 rounds)
>new electric power supply system, controlling and recording system
>Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers
> El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant
>two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays
>autopilot
>radar warning receivers (RWR)
>new liquid air cooling system
>HOTAS controls

It has a mix of French, Israeli, Indian and Russian aveonics equipment.(like the MKI). It is claimed that the fighters are equivalent to any 4th Generation fighter, with the ability to lock on to 8 different targets at once.

It's weaponry includes the not so commonly seen seeker module of the KAB-500Kr TV guided bomb, R-73and an R-77 BVRAAM carried underwing. The aircraft's sophisticated EW suite comprises of a DRDO Tarang RWR/RHAWS, "Tempest" internal Self-protection jammer (SPJ) and the conformal CMDS.

Other features include a SURA HMS, a semi-glass cockpit and a Sextant Totem-3000 Ring laser gyro nav. system with GPS, to mention a few. Note the conformal countermeasure dispensers, the new Tarang RWR's antennae on the tailfin and the single piece windshield.


The Indian Air Force (IAF) is now adding stealth modifications to an existing $340m programme to upgrade 125 of its MiG-21bis fighters to MiG-21-93 standard. Sources for Jane's Defence Weekly have revealed these secret events in a report published in today's edition of the magazine.

Extensive tests to demonstrate Russia's ability to upgrade Indian fighter aircraft with stealth capabilities took place in front of Indian defence ministry officials at the Sokol aircraft plant in Nizhniy Novgorod on 29th May 2000. The demonstration was highly successful and is understood to have resulted in the Russian government and RSK MIG urging the IAF to adopt the stealth modifications across its MiG-21-93 fleet.

The core of the demonstration saw two MiG-21bis--one upgraded with stealth technology and one without--being tracked by what is believed to be a Mig-31 in a controlled test of radar-absorbent materials (RAM) and coatings developed at the Moscow Institute of Applied and Theoretical Electrodynamics.

During its flight the radar signature of the upgraded Mig-21bis was shown to be between 10 and 15 times weaker than the regular MiG-21bis.

Source: http://defence.pk/threads/mig-21-bison-the-underdog.53018/#ixzz4AMo5kwnd

GarryB wrote:

Intersting facts about mig21 bison. With a newer AESA radar and newer stealth technology could do very well against 4+ generation aircrafts. They shoud have offer these upgrades to egypt when they signed mig-35 contracts.

With serious upgrades like new radar and avionics and missiles it is a small light dangerous aircraft for even a modern fighter, but it also has huge drawbacks like only 5 weapon hardpoints for weapons, it has relatively short range, which gets worse if you add things like a self defence suite and other hardware and electronics it does not already carry... if you put it in an external pod that takes up a pylon.

there is nothing wrong with the concept of a small cheap fighter as long as you realise it is limited in range and payload.

The setbacks of the Mig-21 are not new. Neverheless there was and still is an excellent and redoubtable fighter, including against the best modern fighters like F-15, F-18, F-35 and even F-16 A. By a fair upgrade I mean mostly new engine, if possible Vector thrust, like Lyulka 12.000 Kg/f. In my view AESA radar, as supposed stealth technology are pointless. 4 Air-air missiles  are largely enough, if not too much, too cumbersome, the most important asset is still the gun. Indeed, with a powerful IRST -OLS-, RWR, and MAWS could be excellent assets. The Mig-21 should not be a fighter bomber, but just a fighter, it excels in this role. As I said in Vietnam, 50 Mig-21 were downed by F-4 Phantom -US scored, because Fishbed was outnumbered by US air fighters-, meanwhile the Mig-21 downed 130 F-4 Phantom. During Lebanon's war in 1982, the same Mig-21 downed several dozens of Phantom again, and even F-15 A, and several F-16. This aircraft is an absolutly fantasctic fighter. Thx to Arthem Mikoyan, and Gourevitch.

higurashihougi wrote:

nemrod wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Intersting facts about mig21 bison. With a newer AESA radar and newer stealth technology could do very well against 4+ generation aircrafts. They shoud have offer these upgrades to egypt when they signed mig-35 contracts.

With serious upgrades like new radar and avionics and missiles it is a small light dangerous aircraft for even a modern fighter, but it also has huge drawbacks like only 5 weapon hardpoints for weapons, it has relatively short range, which gets worse if you add things like a self defence suite and other hardware and electronics it does not already carry... if you put it in an external pod that takes up a pylon.

there is nothing wrong with the concept of a small cheap fighter as long as you realise it is limited in range and payload.

The setbacks of the Mig-21 are not new. Neverheless there was and still is an excellent and redoubtable fighter, including against the best modern fighters like F-15, F-18, F-35 and even F-16 A. By a fair upgrade I mean mostly new engine, if possible Vector thrust, like Lyulka 12.000 Kg/f. In my view AESA radar, as supposed stealth technology are pointless. 4 Air-air missiles  are largely enough, if not too much, too cumbersome, the most important asset is still the gun. Indeed, with a powerful IRST -OLS-, RWR, and MAWS could be excellent assets. The Mig-21 should not be a fighter bomber, but just a fighter, it excels in this role. As I said in Vietnam, 50 Mig-21 were downed by F-4 Phantom -US scored, because Fishbed was outnumbered by US air fighters-, meanwhile the Mig-21 downed 130 F-4 Phantom. During Lebanon's war in 1982, the same Mig-21 downed several dozens of Phantom again, and even F-15 A, and several F-16. This aircraft is an absolutly fantasctic fighter. Thx to Arthem Mikoyan, and Gourevitch.

MiG-21 is designed to be short range interceptor and point defender. That means, it takes off, engages the enemy near the base, quickly finishes the target at close combat, and quickly returns to the base. It can't fly long, it can't carry much, it is quite sluggish at low alitude and dense atmosphere... but it is very fast and has excellent maneuveravility, especially at high alitude. Excellent speed and climb rate of MiG-21 enabled it to perform the deadly "corba attack" against sluggish F-4.

However it became obsolete after MiG-25 was born. MiG-25 is the first 4th gen fighter and it laid the foundation for most of Russia and US 4th gen.

Mig-25 was not build to replace Mig-21. Even the Mig23, which was mean to replace it, didn't because it's a realy good fighter. Egyptian Mig-21 dedstroyed some Lybian Mig-23 because they engaged them in a dogfight.

Mig-25 is an interceptor not dogfihter.

higurashihougi wrote:
MiG-25 can dogfight if it was armed with a gun.

I never heard a such thing, on contrary the Mig-25 was not designed to be manoeuvrable as the Mig-21. At first the Mig-25 was designed against the XB-70 Valkyrie's threat, and SR-71 Blackbird. In this task it was a success.

higurashihougi wrote:
The design enable MiG-25 to achieve considerable AoA and maneuverability, which is critical for dogfight.

AFAIK, as several books I read, the Mig-25 was not intended for dogfight, even though many syrian, iraqi Mig-25 dodged easily the western's state of the art's air to air missiles. There are reports that Mig-25 dodged successfully several AIM-120 C launched by F-15, and F-16.

higurashihougi wrote:
MiG-21 is obsolete means,...

As we've already discussed the Mig-21 is far to be obsolete.

higurashihougi wrote:
...the era of BVR combat using reliable radar and reliable guided missiles.

Again the BVR is like stealth, it never worked, and won't work in foreseeable future, it is an hollywood fantaisy. The number of BVR's success other than those trumpeting by Raytheon is laughable, if not never existed. An aircraft like the Mig-21 could dodge any air air missile, I talk about the more manoeuvrable WVR, no use to tell more about BVR.

higurashihougi wrote:
....fighters could carry excellent payload, could fly far and long, could have a great amount of weapon, and began to perform multirole combat.

Multirole combat impede much on the intrinsics  performances of an aircraft. All US multirole aircrafts are all a setback. The most famous the JSF is total faillure, because it was designed as multirole. Soviet multirole fighters were faillure too, like the SU-7 for example.

higurashihougi wrote:
Yes MiG-25/31 could be modified to drop bombs if somebody want it.

I don't see the interrest. We've already discussed about this subject about serbian's war -as Desert Storm-, as we've seen the result NATO air campaign was a total faillure. Faillure made by specialized aircraft, no use to tell more about multirole.

higurashihougi wrote:
Meanwhile, MiG-21 lack BVR capability and has limited range and payload.

It is a good thing, because Mig-21 does not need BVR. BVR capabilty is a mere fantaisy, without sense. Indeed, if they could extend the range and autonomy of the Mig-21 it could be a good thing.

I personally think MiG-25 still has life in it. They could potentially come up with a refit program - modernize the engines, use glass cockpit, possibly try to reduce weight of aircraft, modernize radar to something far more powerful and digitize instruments. I imagine if they replace the powersupply unit and modernize engines, they could possibly fit a really powerful radar to it.

But I imagine no one is interested in it anymore.

JohninMK wrote:Not too bad an article https://warisboring.com/a-russian-super-jet-flew-so-fast-it-blew-up-its-own-engines-15bc6fd0a8ca#.b6g4j15ug

Is this a photo recce version, hence all the stars?

Yes, a Mig-25RB, bort red "46"; you can see, in the nose, the cameras. This Mig-25RB, if i'm correctly reading, brings the name of "Valentin Sugrin", Hero of the Soviet Union (the red badge with the star, on the side of the air intake). The aircraft brings also the red banner of the Revolution's Guards, and almost 40 recon missions, (afaik) above all over the Cecenia. 47° indipendent regiment of the Guards. Voronez-Baltimore air base (or Monkegorsk?).
The Mig-25RB is very fast, and it has a slightly shorter wing, with specific tip-pods, afaik with ecm.

Look what i found Shatalovo Air Base

Someone posted it on twitter few days ago