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    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

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    Big_Gazza
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:07 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    I'm shocked that we constantly allow neocons and NATO s.t.r.o.n.k. chuckle-heads to frame the debates, like how they claim A-235/Nudol is simply just a anti-satellite system. Rolling Eyes  Talk about "finally" developing HGV's is funny considering the Soviet's developed the Buran which is essentially a civilian version of a HGV, and that was back with antiquated 1980's electronics. It's a strong likelihood that Topol/Topol-M series uses HGV warheads aided by the miniaturization that came with the rise of digital electronics (the 1980's didn't have smartphones Wink), hence the reason why Almaz Antey has now stated that the S-500 can now "intercept  intercontinental ballistic missiles with the possibility of changing trajectory mid-flight."

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t4954p675-s-300-400-500-news-russian-strategic-air-defense#149316

    ...The only way they can reliable state the S-500 could engage ICBM warheads that can change trajectory in mid-flight is if they already developed that technology and from that they developed practice targets mimicking the characteristics. As far as the use of scramjets, Almaz Antey has stated that the RS-26 will be abandoning the 'bus' system in favor of individual warheads with their own propulsion, and it isn't a mere coincidence that Zircon will be coming in to force approximately around the same time frame/window. It's no wonder VKS absolutely refused to let U.S. START officials see what the RS-26's warhead looked like.

    Good point about the unmanned Buran being essentially an early HGV, and I would add while I've never seen any data on the dynamic performances, I'd expect that the BOR-4 & 5 test vehicles from the Buran program in the early-mid 80s likely exhibited many of the qualities required by a practical weaponised HGV.  I would not be surprised if the Yu-71 development has leveraged the technological legacy from these older vehicles, particularly for thermal protection systems (the testing of which was the main purpose of the BOR vehicles).

    BOR-4 graphic below.  Although this vehicle had rocket-powered propulsion for initiating re-entry followed by a largely ballistic path until final landing approach (rather than a scramjet used for active flight to target) I'd assert that it can still be considered a rudimentary HGV.

    http://www.buran-energia.net/img/bor4-15.gif

    1-Nasal thermal shield; 2-Electrical battery; 3-Tank for the fuel, NO3 + UDMH; 4-Parachute; 5-Navigation system and on-board electronic; 6-Radio equipment; 7-Scientific equipment; 8-Actuator of the wings; 9-Wings; 10-Vertical stabilizer; 11-Engines; 12-Central bloc of the GRD engines, pitching; 13-Steel frame.
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    max steel
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:48 am

    Buran was an OTV developed by Russia in 1980s just to check whether nukes can be delivered from space also. They had their answers. Meanwhile US X-37B is a similar OTV flying around these days.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  kvs on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:52 pm

    max steel wrote:Buran was an OTV developed by Russia in 1980s just to check whether nukes can be delivered from space also. They had their answers. Meanwhile US X-37B is a similar OTV flying around these days.

    But it was hypersonic. So the HGV tag is quite correct.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  gaurav on Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:46 pm

    max steel wrote:I thought Sarmat will be replacing Voyevoda R-36M2. As far as I know they have been testing projekt 4202 on SS-19 only, i guess hypersonic glider failure was the main reason.
    Yaah correct.

    max steel wrote:Good to see old posters coming back.
    Just came back from 2 days software work.

    I am a regular "visitor" not a contributor to this site. I basically read most of the comments on this site.
    I dont need to contribute infront of giants who have huge amount of technical and non technical details of eastern or Russian
    development framework.

    max steel wrote:Can you answer my few questions
    I will see the other people comments (on that thread  Very Happy ) and then try to answer.

    OOT(Out of Topic)
    Yaah man ,Those Rambo movies of Thailand and Aghan were the Indian primary war movies, along with Oliver Stone (heavens & earth),
    hamburger hill, platoon etc.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  gaurav on Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:18 pm

    Back to business: Russia hypersonic test

    See the buran is ideal example how the Main Stream Media tries to make a fool of ourself. Basically they(media) are trying to spin
    the facts and create confusion.
    This Glider concept was there right from Soviet Union days. This Buran was the "hypersonic" space vehicle. The mass of buran (corrected??)
    30-40 tons... !
    The mach numbers for Buran space shuttle at 6-10 kilometeres altitude  2-5 mach. At 300 kilometeres orbit 24 mach.
    So ideally this is also Hypersonic Glide Vehicle.

    To be frank ,It is very difficult to tell what are the U.S advances and propaganda regarding its missiles.
    I will look into it and then comment on it.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Tue May 03, 2016 10:31 am

    this area of forum is simply too complicated for me. i lack alot of understanding of terms (what are "gliders", "mirv-why couldnt be maneuvreable till now", "balistic vs cruise", "scramjet-and why their are better that ramjet", and others). simply i dont know the physics of fluids and aerodinamic so here i cant tell nothing. but i would like it to know. despite that the main area i was interested and i am is electronics , quantum physics and some chemistry. the newtonian physiscs is somethign that i didnt read just jumped on after einstein physics.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 03, 2016 5:28 pm

    The LII preparing to test an experimental hypersonic vehicle
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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue May 03, 2016 6:56 pm

    CIAM experienced poster module hypersonic engine on hydrogen fuel
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 04, 2016 10:03 am

    this area of forum is simply too complicated for me. i lack alot of understanding of terms (what are "gliders",

    These gliders are called gliders because they don't have their own engines... they are launched with an old ICBM and then they just glide at very high speed to their target.

    "mirv-why couldnt be maneuvreable till now",

    A Mirv is guided towards its own target but it has no propulsion so it can't travel a long way to get to its target.

    "balistic vs cruise",

    Ballistic is like a bullet... it is accelerated up to flight speed and then coasts to the target... they are usually fired up into the air and then travel a curved trajectory to fall on the target. A cruise missile has its own engine and flys all the way to the target. both have guidance systems.

    "scramjet-and why their are better that ramjet", and others).

    A Ram Jet is a type of jet engine that is very simple. Air goes in one end of a tube and as the tube gets narrow the air is compressed which heats it up. Fuel is added and burned which generates more heat so the air exits the rear of the ramjet at high speed and high temperature... that generates thrust. Increasing the fuel supply increases the thrust.

    A scramjet is a special type of ramjet where the air inside the jet engine can be burned supersonically... s c ram jet the s means supersonic and the c means combustion... so a scramjet is a supersonic combustion ramjet.

    A normal jet engine would choke on supersonic air so they have special intakes to slow the air down. A scramjet could fly as fast as you want because it doesn't need to slow the air coming into it to subsonic speeds to burn fuel inside.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Arrow on Wed May 04, 2016 6:54 pm

    Russia in warhead project 4202 use scramjet engine ?
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    Militarov
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Militarov on Wed May 04, 2016 7:51 pm

    sepheronx wrote:The LII preparing to test an experimental hypersonic vehicle






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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu May 05, 2016 11:04 am

    max steel wrote: Strategic delivery systems being replaced with new systems or completely rebuilt with essentially all new parts.In defence US will use THAAD-ER to kill hypersonic gliding vehicles.


    unlikely to happen if gliding vehicles would have computer aproximation of interception point and decrease/increase at will of speed.....

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu May 05, 2016 11:09 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:The missile in question traveled at Mach 5, not Mach 10.


    Still 5Ma for maneuvering object makes is hard to intercept. I thought however you were talking about PGS.

    1) PGS speeds should reach any point in less then hour. Simplifying then Earth is a ball with then 10,000km/h is minimum ( >9 Ma)
    2) Ceiling is to be exo-atmospheric up to 100km

    In such conditions S-400 is apparently not enough that´s why explicit requirement for S-500 is to be able to cope with hypersonic missiles..



    Magnum is correct for the most part.  Essentially, the interceptor does not have to travel at a greater speed than incoming missile does, especially the type of interception.  If it has to intecept it from behind, then it would be a problem, but in this case, the interceptor missile 48N6E3 is capable of Mach 6.2 and the missile in question is the X-51 which couldn't get higher than Mach 5 and as Magnum said, at last minute as it traveled much slower before hand.  If you are talking about the Global Strike system, then clearly this either isn't it or misquoting is happening in regards what it is supposed to achieve in terms of speed.  As Garry said, a Ballistic missile warhead travels at around Mach 25 or so and the S-500 is supposed to be able to engage those targets with their interceptor missiles flying slower.  Cause it is supposed to already calculate before launch when the point of the interceptor will meet up with the enemy missile at X distance.  Like how any other ABM system works.

    http://www.deagel.com/Air-Defense-Systems/S-400_a000371001.aspx



    Tagets max speed the S-400 can engage is Mach 14.5 or 4,800 mps
    bigger the speed of the interceptor means the incoming missile must make a circle like moving to escape at all from a interception point ...... but turning at high speed is hard to make....dont know the situation in upper atmosphere where the earth atraction is low and the atmosphere is not so dense

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu May 05, 2016 11:14 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Just my 2 cents kopecks here:


    1) Orbital speed on sea level is ~24Ma (7,9km/s) so S-500 interception speed is not pulled out of the thin air

    2) PGS is to fly high. 70-100km Not only atmospheric friction, also higher atmosphere layers can hamper radio waves propagation so detection might be too late...

    3) Kinetic interceptors indeed are to hit gliders I do not recall explicit statement about maneuvering gliders

    The case or maneuvering warheads is utmost important for Russia as US is steadily preparing for aggression.  I am not sure what benefit besides new technology gives PGS over MIRV warhead delivery? All in all Russians can use a glider on Voivoda class missile to with conventional warhead to send down any carrier in the World.
    in the case of detection are some radio waves that are going trought the upper atmosphere but not low ....
    but a high altitude a drone or a baloon like radar could take at half way the radio waves and transform into desirable waves
    why the warhead cant be simply put into a rocket that is on the ICBM?
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 05, 2016 12:46 pm

    victor1985 wrote: in the case of detection are some radio waves that are going trought the upper atmosphere but not low ....
    but a high altitude a drone or a baloon like radar could take at half way the radio waves and transform into desirable waves
    why the warhead cant be simply put into a rocket that is on the ICBM?

    Not sure why against Russia but probably because of price. PGS is gonna be relatively cheap comparing to ICBMs and its mass application can be used as first attack (subs, orbit, genocide lovers NATO left flank) - to decapitate Russian defences. it is cheaper to own the land with so many natural resources if not contaminated by radiation...
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    x_54_u43
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  x_54_u43 on Sun May 08, 2016 10:54 pm



    Patent for hypersonic weapon.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Zivo on Wed May 11, 2016 8:14 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:

    Patent for hypersonic weapon.

    So it gets off the ground with a booster. When it reaches altitude, the booster drops and the scramjet kicks in. When it reaches the target the scramjet drops and it glides to the target and a hypersonic velocity.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Arrow on Wed May 11, 2016 10:47 pm

    Zircon will be fly very high about 30 km. It will be easy to detect.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Militarov on Wed May 11, 2016 10:50 pm

    Arrow wrote:Zircon will be fly very high about 30 km. It will be easy to detect.

    So? ICBMs fly very high too and are very easy to detect, how does that help the target these days?

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Arrow on Wed May 11, 2016 11:05 pm

    ICBM is much more difficult to shoot down.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 12, 2016 1:18 am

    Arrow wrote:ICBM is much more difficult to shoot down.

    high, extremely fast and dodging? not that easy target.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Thu May 12, 2016 1:49 am

    Arrow wrote:ICBM is much more difficult to shoot down.

    so is Zircon Wink
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 13, 2016 9:15 am

    The whole concept behind fast anti ship missiles is to reduce reaction time...

    The air launched Kh-22M was not just fast... it also flew at a very high altitude... both of which made it hard to intercept.

    I am pretty sure Zircon will not just fly at mach 7-8, it will also be flying at 50-60km altitude making it pretty much safe from 99% of in service SAMs today.

    The fact that it is powered rather than just a rocket boosted glider means it can manouver on its way to the target area without losing speed... most systems that can engage targets at that speed are for use against ballistic path targets that don't change track much if at all.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Fri May 13, 2016 10:30 am

    do you think in future when railguns arrive on ship they can successfully shoot down supersonic or hypersonic ASMs ? Because they go hypersonic too plus Zumwalt like ship having 78-megawatt array of turbine generators. So, firing a rail gun once would take almost a third of the most advanced ship's whole capacity.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri May 13, 2016 1:55 pm

    max steel wrote:do you think in future when railguns arrive on ship they can successfully shoot down supersonic or hypersonic ASMs ? Because they go hypersonic too plus Zumwalt like ship having 78-megawatt array of turbine generators. So, firing a rail gun once would take almost a third of the most advanced ship's whole capacity.

    I think rail-guns are massively hyped and will likely prove to be an impractical weapon. They consume vast amounts of electrical energy, are slow to recharge and require pin-point accuracy to hit a hypersonic target which I doubt can be reliably achieved on a seaborne platform. The tremendous closing speeds of a rail gun projectile and an oncoming hypersonic missile will likely preclude any use of proximity fusing or pre-programmed detonation delay, so kinetic kill will be needed. Good luck trying to detect, track, compute a firing solution, move your rail gun to the precise elevation & heading, run through your firing sequence and fire your one-and-only projectile in the 10 seconds that it takes a mach 6 bogey to cross 20kms.

    Let the Uh'Murikkkanz waste their declining national treasure on sci-fi wonder weapons that won't deliver the golden bullet solution that MIC salesmen have been pumping into the heads of Pentagon warmongers....

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