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    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:If you didn't know better you would think these hypersonic weapons were unstoppable super weapons that no one would be safe from... the thing is that most ICBMs and SLBMs are actually much faster... Mach 26 or thereabouts...


    but global strike is about range, non  ballistic trajectory and hypersonic cruise where last 2 are not featured in ICBMs warheads.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:29 pm

    Even then, the S-400 48N6 flies at Mach 6 so it would b able to have a chance to still take down a hypersonic cruise missiles. That said, it is still a threat and there is a reason why countries like Russia and China are also building it. But countermeasures still exist and does limit the threat these weapons pose.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:42 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Even then, the S-400 48N6 flies at Mach 6 so it would b able to have a chance to still take down a hypersonic cruise missiles. That said, it is still a threat and there is a reason why countries like Russia and China are also building it. But countermeasures still exist and does limit the threat these weapons pose.

    Cruise missile with Ma=10-12 and changing course and not on ballistic trajectory? unlikely IMHO...

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:07 pm

    The missile in question traveled at Mach 5, not Mach 10.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:38 pm

    sepheronx wrote:The missile in question traveled at Mach 5, not Mach 10.


    Still 5Ma for maneuvering object makes is hard to intercept. I thought however you were talking about PGS.

    1) PGS speeds should reach any point in less then hour. Simplifying then Earth is a ball with then 10,000km/h is minimum ( >9 Ma)
    2) Ceiling is to be exo-atmospheric up to 100km

    In such conditions S-400 is apparently not enough that´s why explicit requirement for S-500 is to be able to cope with hypersonic missiles..



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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:12 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:The missile in question traveled at Mach 5, not Mach 10.


    Still 5Ma for maneuvering object makes is hard to intercept. I thought however you were talking about PGS.

    1) PGS speeds should reach any point in less then hour. Simplifying then Earth is a ball with then 10,000km/h is minimum ( >9 Ma)
    2) Ceiling is to be exo-atmospheric up to 100km

    In such conditions S-400 is apparently not enough that´s why explicit requirement for S-500 is to be able to cope with hypersonic missiles..



    lol1 Nonsense, S-400 is designed to engage Mach 16 targets, Mach 9 is almost half that speed, and what makes you think the hypersonic missiles tested by DARPA has the range to be intercontinental? They barely pass the Mach 5 threshold and only last minutes at a time, many times leading to failure.

    S-500 is designed to engage Mach 20-22 targets btw.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:09 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:The missile in question traveled at Mach 5, not Mach 10.


    Still 5Ma for maneuvering object makes is hard to intercept. I thought however you were talking about PGS.

    1) PGS speeds should reach any point in less then hour. Simplifying then Earth is a ball with then 10,000km/h is minimum ( >9 Ma)
    2) Ceiling is to be exo-atmospheric up to 100km

    In such conditions S-400 is apparently not enough that´s why explicit requirement for S-500 is to be able to cope with hypersonic missiles..



    Magnum is correct for the most part.  Essentially, the interceptor does not have to travel at a greater speed than incoming missile does, especially the type of interception.  If it has to intecept it from behind, then it would be a problem, but in this case, the interceptor missile 48N6E3 is capable of Mach 6.2 and the missile in question is the X-51 which couldn't get higher than Mach 5 and as Magnum said, at last minute as it traveled much slower before hand.  If you are talking about the Global Strike system, then clearly this either isn't it or misquoting is happening in regards what it is supposed to achieve in terms of speed.  As Garry said, a Ballistic missile warhead travels at around Mach 25 or so and the S-500 is supposed to be able to engage those targets with their interceptor missiles flying slower.  Cause it is supposed to already calculate before launch when the point of the interceptor will meet up with the enemy missile at X distance.  Like how any other ABM system works.

    http://www.deagel.com/Air-Defense-Systems/S-400_a000371001.aspx



    Tagets max speed the S-400 can engage is Mach 14.5 or 4,800 mps

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:58 am

    Boeing X-51 waverider is a scramjet used to increase the propulsion speed of missiles.The Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) program is a joint DARPA/U.S. Air Force (USAF) effort that seeks to develop and demonstrate critical technologies to enable an effective and affordable air-launched hypersonic cruise missile upto mach 5 speeds (achieved Mach 5.1 with X-51 scramjet).


    Tactical Boost Glider is the main weapon for US PGS program. TBG, a high-speed glide weapon launched from a common vertical launch silo, follows in the Mach 20 contrails of the Falcon HTV-2 experiments that failed in 2010 and 2011.

    The U.S. military is pouring money into hypersonic research, and it’s making China and Russia —which have their own similar programs — nervous. But the accelerating effort to build missiles that fly at speeds between Mach 5 to Mach 19 is also alarming some in the nonproliferation community. Despite Pentagon officials’ assurances that superfast weapons will carry only conventional warheads, some believe that other nations may well treat any hypersonic launch as a potential nuclear strike.

    TBG is not Mach 5 but much higher than that. After 2 failed test US hasn't tested it yet. Meanwhile China conducted some 6-8 tests & all of them were a success ( But China's TBG speed is only Mach 5 ) . Russia's Yu-71 is already talked about. They will be testing it again in 2016( 1 test only.)

    The history of U.S. advances in hypersonics is intertwined with nuclear weapons research . The US has tested maneuvering reentry vehicles which were intended for nuclear delivery. The Advanced Hypersonic Weapon, successfully tested in 2011 .

    So it means till date US nuclear warheads RV weren't maneuvering ?  U.S. is also planning to spend more on modernizing U.S. ICBMs which includes to extend the life of a number of nuclear warheads (refurbishing the warheads  to last for the next 30-50 years). Strategic delivery systems being replaced with new systems or completely rebuilt with essentially all new parts.In defence US will use THAAD-ER to kill hypersonic gliding vehicles.



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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:23 am

    Just my 2 cents kopecks here:


    1) Orbital speed on sea level is ~24Ma (7,9km/s) so S-500 interception speed is not pulled out of the thin air

    2) PGS is to fly high. 70-100km Not only atmospheric friction, also higher atmosphere layers can hamper radio waves propagation so detection might be too late...

    3) Kinetic interceptors indeed are to hit gliders I do not recall explicit statement about maneuvering gliders

    The case or maneuvering warheads is utmost important for Russia as US is steadily preparing for aggression. I am not sure what benefit besides new technology gives PGS over MIRV warhead delivery? All in all Russians can use a glider on Voivoda class missile to with conventional warhead to send down any carrier in the World.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:30 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    lol1 Nonsense, S-400 is designed to engage Mach 16 targets, Mach 9 is almost half that speed, and what makes you think the hypersonic missiles tested by DARPA has the range to be intercontinental? They barely pass the Mach 5 threshold and only last minutes at a time, many times leading to failure.

    S-500 is designed to engage Mach 20-22 targets btw.

    once you read what is PGS about (with understanding) there will be no lols anymore Twisted Evil

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:36 pm

    2 years from now - first Zircon will appear from the series production thumbsup

    Source: hypersonic missile "Zircon" is scheduled to start in the series in 2018

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:11 pm

    cheers Finally a successful test cheers


    Project 4202 flight test(Yu-71)


    Russia conducted a flight test of a "hypersonic warhead" earlier this week (on April 19). The missile carrying the warhead was launched from the Dobarovsky site. The test is said to be successful.

    Now mainstream media (Interfax) confirm the story and say that the test took place on Tuesday, April 19. As expected, the UR-100NUTTH/RS-18/SS-19 missile was used to carry the vehicle.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Arrow on Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:47 pm

    There is no any official information about the current and previous tests Ju-71.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:12 pm

    Arrow wrote:There is no any official information about the current and previous tests Ju-71.

    There is about the current test. Read the thread,links.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:26 am

    once you read what is PGS about (with understanding) there will be no lols anymore

    The amusing thing is that these gliders are launched from what amounts to an ICBM, and both Russia and China have truck mounted systems that could be flown to almost anywhere to be launched, while the US has a few launch pads for testing and ICBM silos that likely wont be the right size to allow a large nose mounted payload to be fitted.

    the second amusing thing is that ICBMs are faster than these weapons so when their launch is detected Russia and China will likely treat them as being ICBMs... if they decide the gliders are heading their way I rather suspect they will launch a full retaliation... one hour from launch to impact for the gliders... 5 minutes flight time for forward deployed SLBMs and 30 minutes for ICBMs from Russia... can you please remind me what makes these gliders so fucking fantastic and game changing?

    Sounds like a slow motion attempt to punch the guy with a pistol in the face... in other words a guaranteed gunshot wound to the head...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:34 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The amusing thing is that these gliders are launched from what amounts to an ICBM, and both Russia and China have truck mounted systems that could be flown to almost anywhere to be launched, while the US has a few launch pads for testing and ICBM silos that likely wont be the right size to allow a large nose mounted payload to be fitted.

    the second amusing thing is that ICBMs are faster than these weapons so when their launch is detected Russia and China will likely treat them as being ICBMs... if they decide the gliders are heading their way I rather suspect they will launch a full retaliation... one hour from launch to impact for the gliders... 5 minutes flight time for forward deployed SLBMs and 30 minutes for ICBMs from Russia... can you please remind me what makes these gliders so fucking fantastic and game changing?

    Sounds like a slow motion attempt to punch the guy with a pistol in the face... in other words a guaranteed gunshot wound to the head...

    Good news about the (apparently) successful test of the Yu-71 test vehicle  Very Happy  

    I think the most utility for these systems may be to attack vital installations that are heavily protected by (future) ABM defenses.  Alternatively, the existence of precision-guided highly-maneuverable hypersonic glide vehicles may pull the rug out from under any large-scale ABM deployment.  Opponents of such systems will argue why proceed with a hugely expensive ABM system to defend against large-scale attack when HGVs can easily pierce such defenses, and the costs for large scale defense against HGVs would be utterly unfeasible?  These sorts of arguments provide far more traction than intellectual arguments (like the destabilizing nature of ABM systems where one sides strategic deterrent is threatened by a secure adversary).

    I don't see the Global Strike BS as being such a great idea.  I can't imagine that there are too many 3rd world terrorist targets that would justify launching an ICBM, and for using such a weapon against a 1st-grade power like Russia or China?  That would be absurd as the target has no guarantee that the payload isn't a nuclear warhead on a decapitation strike, and I shudder to think of the consequences.

    BTW is there any indications whether these vehicles use scramjets, or are they passive vehicles like MaRVs that are restricted to a quasi-ballistic trajectory and consume their kinetic energy as they change course (ie losing speed and limiting cross-range capabilities)?

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  gaurav on Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:17 am

    max steel wrote:There is about the current test. Read the thread,links.

    Start ICBM warheads "Sarmat" ,  the developers have called "fantastic success"


    YU-71 may not be the correct name , Till now the media name is only 4202. The hypersonic aircraft currently being readied for SARMAT tests.

    Officially, these tests have not yet been reported. But, according to sources "MK", ​​a report on this fantastic success as it classifies
    the developers, to be held in the near future. The test launch, according to our interlocutors, was carried from the Orenburg region with GMD Dombarovsky.

    Then, some time on tests of this device could not hear. Probably because there is nothing to boast it was especially - it is no secret that the first stages of development testing often persecuted failures, which is quite natural. But now, according to our sources, it all behind. And "our answer to Chamberlain" almost ready.

    Project 4202 test

    Russia tests hypersonic warhead

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:22 am

    gaurav wrote:


    YU-71 may not be the correct name , Till now the media name is only 4202. The hypersonic aircraft currently being readied for SARMAT tests.

    Officially, these tests have not yet been reported. But, according to sources "MK", ​​a report on this fantastic success as it classifies
    the developers, to be held in the near future. The test launch, according to our interlocutors, was carried from the Orenburg region with GMD Dombarovsky.

    Then, some time on tests of this device could not hear. Probably because there is nothing to boast it was especially - it is no secret that the first stages of development testing often persecuted failures, which is quite natural. But now, according to our sources, it all behind. And "our answer to Chamberlain" almost ready.

    Project 4202 test

    Russia tests hypersonic warhead

    No it's not Sarmat. They used SS-19 Stiletto for glider launch. The December 2011 tests is by all indication the first one that was done under the Project 4202 program. The vehicle is now known as Yu-71.

    Arrow wrote:There is no any official information about the current and previous tests Ju-71.

    Well read the hyper-links by gaurav now 3 Russian source and 1 British one. Russia’s Defense Ministry has neither denied nor confirmed the report.

    2008 Launch:

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  gaurav on Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:15 pm

    max steel wrote:No it's not Sarmat. They used SS-19 Stiletto for glider launch.

    Yaah it is RS-18 launch. Pentagon and Defense dept going crazy and shitting bricks after these tests.
    They just dont know what to say. This test has really unnerved them to the hilt.

    U.S officials react: Hypersonic warhead test

    That SS-19 video launch looks so awesome(everytime I see that).

    Actually the whole Sarmat infrastructure and technology development was planned/built around this hypersonic aircraft.

    We saw last year that that Sarmat development was continuously getting postponed as this warhead/aircraft was not fully ready.
    BUt now the  sarmat assembly and production is back to full swing . Initially Russia planned a whole regiment of SS-19 missiles carrying
    this warhead.That regiment would have really changed the game. That plan was dropped unfortunately maybe due to development time cycle of this aircraft.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:55 pm

    gaurav wrote:

    Yaah it is RS-18 launch. Pentagon and Defense dept going crazy and shitting bricks after these tests.
    They just dont know what to say. This test has really unnerved them to the hilt.

    U.S officials react: Hypersonic warhead test

    That SS-19 video launch looks so awesome(everytime I see that).

    Actually the whole Sarmat infrastructure and technology development was planned/built around this hypersonic aircraft.

    We saw last year that that Sarmat development was continuously getting postponed as this warhead/aircraft was not fully ready.
    BUt now the  sarmat assembly and production is back to full swing . Initially Russia planned a whole regiment of SS-19 missiles carrying
    this warhead.That regiment would have really changed the game. That plan was dropped unfortunately maybe due to development time cycle of this aircraft.

    The reason Pentagon and Def Dept going crazy because the test was SUCCESSFUL after so many years.

    I thought Sarmat will be replacing Voyevoda R-36M2. As far as I know they have been testing projekt 4202 on SS-19 only, i guess hypersonic glider failure was the main reason.

    Can you answer my few questions(from post)? : http://www.russiadefence.net/t2758p225-russia-us-and-other-developments-in-hypersonic-research#160534


    Good to see old posters coming back. lol1


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:18 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The amusing thing is that these gliders are launched from what amounts to an ICBM, and both Russia and China have truck mounted systems that could be flown to almost anywhere to be launched, while the US has a few launch pads for testing and ICBM silos that likely wont be the right size to allow a large nose mounted payload to be fitted.

    the second amusing thing is that ICBMs are faster than these weapons so when their launch is detected Russia and China will likely treat them as being ICBMs... if they decide the gliders are heading their way I rather suspect they will launch a full retaliation... one hour from launch to impact for the gliders... 5 minutes flight time for forward deployed SLBMs and 30 minutes for ICBMs from Russia... can you please remind me what makes these gliders so fucking fantastic and game changing?

    Sounds like a slow motion attempt to punch the guy with a pistol in the face... in other words a guaranteed gunshot wound to the head...

    Good news about the (apparently) successful test of the Yu-71 test vehicle  Very Happy  

    I think the most utility for these systems may be to attack vital installations that are heavily protected by (future) ABM defenses.  Alternatively, the existence of precision-guided highly-maneuverable hypersonic glide vehicles may pull the rug out from under any large-scale ABM deployment.  Opponents of such systems will argue why proceed with a hugely expensive ABM system to defend against large-scale attack when HGVs can easily pierce such defenses, and the costs for large scale defense against HGVs would be utterly unfeasible?  These sorts of arguments provide far more traction than intellectual arguments (like the destabilizing nature of ABM systems where one sides strategic deterrent is threatened by a secure adversary).

    I don't see the Global Strike BS as being such a great idea.  I can't imagine that there are too many 3rd world terrorist targets that would justify launching an ICBM, and for using such a weapon against a 1st-grade power like Russia or China?  That would be absurd as the target has no guarantee that the payload isn't a nuclear warhead on a decapitation strike, and I shudder to think of the consequences.

    BTW is there any indications whether these vehicles use scramjets, or are they passive vehicles like MaRVs that are restricted to a quasi-ballistic trajectory and consume their kinetic energy as they change course (ie losing speed and limiting cross-range capabilities)?

    I'm shocked that we constantly allow neocons and NATO s.t.r.o.n.k. chuckle-heads to frame the debates, like how they claim A-235/Nudol is simply just a anti-satellite system. Rolling Eyes  Talk about "finally" developing HGV's is funny considering the Soviet's developed the Buran which is essentially a civilian version of a HGV, and that was back with antiquated 1980's electronics. It's a strong likelihood that Topol/Topol-M series uses HGV warheads aided by the miniaturization that came with the rise of digital electronics (the 1980's didn't have smartphones Wink), hence the reason why Almaz Antey has now stated that the S-500 can now "intercept  intercontinental ballistic missiles with the possibility of changing trajectory mid-flight."

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t4954p675-s-300-400-500-news-russian-strategic-air-defense#149316

    ...The only way they can reliable state the S-500 could engage ICBM warheads that can change trajectory in mid-flight is if they already developed that technology and from that they developed practice targets mimicking the characteristics. As far as the use of scramjets, Almaz Antey has stated that the RS-26 will be abandoning the 'bus' system in favor of individual warheads with their own propulsion, and it isn't a mere coincidence that Zircon will be coming in to force approximately around the same time frame/window. It's no wonder VKS absolutely refused to let U.S. START officials see what the RS-26's warhead looked like.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:07 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    I'm shocked that we constantly allow neocons and NATO s.t.r.o.n.k. chuckle-heads to frame the debates, like how they claim A-235/Nudol is simply just a anti-satellite system. Rolling Eyes  Talk about "finally" developing HGV's is funny considering the Soviet's developed the Buran which is essentially a civilian version of a HGV, and that was back with antiquated 1980's electronics. It's a strong likelihood that Topol/Topol-M series uses HGV warheads aided by the miniaturization that came with the rise of digital electronics (the 1980's didn't have smartphones Wink), hence the reason why Almaz Antey has now stated that the S-500 can now "intercept  intercontinental ballistic missiles with the possibility of changing trajectory mid-flight."

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t4954p675-s-300-400-500-news-russian-strategic-air-defense#149316

    ...The only way they can reliable state the S-500 could engage ICBM warheads that can change trajectory in mid-flight is if they already developed that technology and from that they developed practice targets mimicking the characteristics. As far as the use of scramjets, Almaz Antey has stated that the RS-26 will be abandoning the 'bus' system in favor of individual warheads with their own propulsion, and it isn't a mere coincidence that Zircon will be coming in to force approximately around the same time frame/window. It's no wonder VKS absolutely refused to let U.S. START officials see what the RS-26's warhead looked like.

    Good point about the unmanned Buran being essentially an early HGV, and I would add while I've never seen any data on the dynamic performances, I'd expect that the BOR-4 & 5 test vehicles from the Buran program in the early-mid 80s likely exhibited many of the qualities required by a practical weaponised HGV.  I would not be surprised if the Yu-71 development has leveraged the technological legacy from these older vehicles, particularly for thermal protection systems (the testing of which was the main purpose of the BOR vehicles).

    BOR-4 graphic below.  Although this vehicle had rocket-powered propulsion for initiating re-entry followed by a largely ballistic path until final landing approach (rather than a scramjet used for active flight to target) I'd assert that it can still be considered a rudimentary HGV.

    http://www.buran-energia.net/img/bor4-15.gif

    1-Nasal thermal shield; 2-Electrical battery; 3-Tank for the fuel, NO3 + UDMH; 4-Parachute; 5-Navigation system and on-board electronic; 6-Radio equipment; 7-Scientific equipment; 8-Actuator of the wings; 9-Wings; 10-Vertical stabilizer; 11-Engines; 12-Central bloc of the GRD engines, pitching; 13-Steel frame.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:48 am

    Buran was an OTV developed by Russia in 1980s just to check whether nukes can be delivered from space also. They had their answers. Meanwhile US X-37B is a similar OTV flying around these days.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  kvs on Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:52 pm

    max steel wrote:Buran was an OTV developed by Russia in 1980s just to check whether nukes can be delivered from space also. They had their answers. Meanwhile US X-37B is a similar OTV flying around these days.

    But it was hypersonic. So the HGV tag is quite correct.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  gaurav on Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:46 pm

    max steel wrote:I thought Sarmat will be replacing Voyevoda R-36M2. As far as I know they have been testing projekt 4202 on SS-19 only, i guess hypersonic glider failure was the main reason.
    Yaah correct.

    max steel wrote:Good to see old posters coming back.
    Just came back from 2 days software work.

    I am a regular "visitor" not a contributor to this site. I basically read most of the comments on this site.
    I dont need to contribute infront of giants who have huge amount of technical and non technical details of eastern or Russian
    development framework.

    max steel wrote:Can you answer my few questions
    I will see the other people comments (on that thread  Very Happy ) and then try to answer.

    OOT(Out of Topic)
    Yaah man ,Those Rambo movies of Thailand and Aghan were the Indian primary war movies, along with Oliver Stone (heavens & earth),
    hamburger hill, platoon etc.

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