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    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:13 pm

    max steel wrote:Got any proof to back your claim ?

    It's pretty well know that after the collapse of the USSR, U.S. aerospace industry's went to Russia, you had Lockheed Martin buy the patent for the VTOL thrust nozzle technology created by Yakolev (as seen on the Yak-141/41, and on the F-35B II Lightning), and you also had NASA cooperate directly with Russian aerospace apparatuses on aerospace related hypersonic research.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:13 pm

    One of Britain’s most promising space plane technology companies has just secured investment for what may mark a turning point for the future of air transportation: a non-expendable unmanned hypersonic aircraft capable of operating in space at 25 times the speed of sound.

    Reaction Engines announced Monday it will partner with defense multinational BAE Systems in a “working collaboration” to develop its supersonic plane Sabre. BAE purchased 20% of Reaction Engines, providing the strategic investment necessary to accelerate the project, a kind of jet-rocket engine hybrid.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20151103/1029507281/Hypersonic-Space-Plane-Revolutionize-Move-Cosmos.html#ixzz3qQwUPiAu




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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:41 pm

    Moscow Slams Washington Over Development of 'Prompt Global Strike' System

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160206/1034340105/prompt-global-strike.html#ixzz3zPlwSQnG


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:34 pm

    US Prompt Global Strike Concept Unviable

    The US concept of a Prompt Global Strike (PGS) envisioning a system capable of destroying the nuclear capability of another country is not realistic, a Russian missile designer responsible the Bulava ballistic missile said Wednesday.

    The US military is developing a hypersonic missile intended to deliver an airstrike anywhere on the globe within an hour, and potentially be used in a nuclear conflict.

    The US philosophy of a global strike is obviously foolish because it aims at dealing irreparable damage within such a huge time span, " Yuri Solomonov, chief designer at the Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology (MIIT), told RIA Novosti.

    Solomonov, who designed Russia’s submarine-launched Bulava ballistic missile and Topol-M ballistic missile, said some defense systems could target a missile in flight within five to 10 minutes after its launch.

    "This would mean war, a system like this must not be used," he added, saying the US government was pouring funds into the PGS program.
    The US military has reportedly been testing a PGS prototype for several years. Russia views PGS attack weapons as capable of delivering a disarming strike to its strategic infrastructure.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:01 pm

    One thing I never understood is the concept of this system. To me, it sounds like a cruise missile inside a ballistic missile, and is none nuclear. This is something even Russia could build quite easily. So why is it a major threat? It really doesn't make much sense to me. So if someone can shed some light on this for me, I would be grateful.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:07 pm

    sepheronx wrote:One thing I never understood is the concept of this system.  To me, it sounds like a cruise missile inside a ballistic missile, and is none nuclear.  This is something even Russia could build quite easily.  So why is it a major threat?  It really doesn't make much sense to me.  So if someone can shed some light on this for me, I would be grateful.


    Not a cruise missile but rather a glider and it can carry nuclear payload too. russia has been working on it since 80s but they have failed till date with their Project 4202.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:15 am

    Still odd of a system. A glider nakes less sense to me than using cruise missiles.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:39 am

    The fundamental problem is that with their network of satellites and electronic listening stations around the world they can see better than they can reach.

    What this system is all about is being able to murder people within an hour of finding their location.

    It needs to be conventional rather than nuclear because they want to be able to actually use it...

    Whistle blowers beware...

    Of course if they ever get even close to the system they want the equivalent Russian and Chinese system will have them scared shitless...

    It is one of those technologies where it is best if the west has it but the end of the world if anyone else had it.

    edit: on a more positive note terrorists might hack the system and use it to kill John McCain and Hilary Clinton... Hahaha.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:45 am

    I just don't understand it. Russia currently has maneuverable nuclear warheads which are hypersonic already. None conventional of course, but I just do not see the importance of this system at all. If ever used against a nation with nuclear weapons, that nation would just use its nukes as the initial launch will still be viewed as a nuclear missile launch.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:48 am

    sepheronx wrote:I just don't understand it.  Russia currently has maneuverable nuclear warheads which are hypersonic already.  None conventional of course, but I just do not see the importance of this system at all.  If ever used against a nation with nuclear weapons, that nation would just use its nukes as the initial launch will still be viewed as a nuclear missile launch.  

    The whole "conventional" warheads are just black propaganda...bet your ass if they manage to create it, and field it in service, those warheads will be tactical-nuclear ones, not conventional ones.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:55 am

    What difference would it be if Russia simply replaced a nuclear warhead with a warhead of similar weight that is using a conventional method like a FOAB?
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:57 am

    sepheronx wrote:What difference would it be if Russia simply replaced a nuclear warhead with a warhead of similar weight that is using a conventional method like a FOAB?

    The difference? An exponentially smaller explosion.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:10 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:What difference would it be if Russia simply replaced a nuclear warhead with a warhead of similar weight that is using a conventional method like a FOAB?

    The difference? An exponentially smaller explosion.

    Just curious why it wasnt done yet? Maybe lack of need?
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:10 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:What difference would it be if Russia simply replaced a nuclear warhead with a warhead of similar weight that is using a conventional method like a FOAB?

    The difference? An exponentially smaller explosion.

    at the same time a heavier warhead that needs to be delivered. Not worth the effort unless we find something in between FOAB and Nuke yield of detonation power without sacrifycing anything to much onesides.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:11 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:What difference would it be if Russia simply replaced a nuclear warhead with a warhead of similar weight that is using a conventional method like a FOAB?

    The difference? An exponentially smaller explosion.

    at the same time a heavier warhead that needs to be delivered. Not worth the effort unless we find something in between FOAB and Nuke yield of detonation power without sacrifycing anything to much onesides.

    And this is why I believe the US endevour is pointless since there really hasn't been anything in-between of a nuke and FOAB for the high weight.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:37 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:What difference would it be if Russia simply replaced a nuclear warhead with a warhead of similar weight that is using a conventional method like a FOAB?

    The difference? An exponentially smaller explosion.

    at the same time a heavier warhead that needs to be delivered. Not worth the effort unless we find something in between FOAB and Nuke yield of detonation power without sacrifycing anything to much onesides.

    And this is why I believe the US endevour is pointless since there really hasn't been anything in-between of a nuke and FOAB for the high weight.

    ...But your missing the point. The Pentagon is pushing 'conventional warheads', when they really mean tactical thermonuclear warheads. The word 'conventional', is simply a cover story.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:36 am

    The purpose of this system is not to become a replacement for ICBMs, it is to become a replacement for UCAVs.

    Instead of sending up a global strike UCAV and to have thousands of UAV bases all over the place in some very hostile places including, but not limited to Pakistan and Yemen, and various countries in Africa... they can have their bases in the US for an ICBM sized launcher with a glider able to hit targets anywhere.

    Now this claim for hitting any target on earth within an hour is a bit of a stretch, but the goal is to be able to hit a target very soon after spotting it.

    These weapons wont be used against cities, they will mainly be used against point targets like a specific room in a specific building, or even a vehicle.

    Its enormous speed should allow targets under deep cover to be engaged.

    Now in theory these hypersonic gliders should be able to be shot down with S-500 and perhaps even S-400 too, but the real issue is that these weapons could easily be fitted with nuclear warheads and used as extra ICBMs... there would be no way to check.

    The amusing thing, as I mentioned is that when the US gets this capability... which they desperately want, Russia and China will likely do the same... which the US desperately does not want.

    Needless to say such a system would be a useful addition to an ABM system as a first strike weapon to try to kill the enemy leadership and key points in their defence...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:15 pm


    Well US can use those gliders from European bases also. Afterall NATO purpose is that only.Looking at the developments China is seriously working on its HGV. They already tested it 6-8 times having speed Mach 10 meanwhile US Darpa Glider having speed Mach 20 failed in the test and US stopped its testing after that saying they got enough data from the tests. Now moving to Russia they were also looking at Mach 10 Gliders projekt 4202 but they always failed in their tests, don't know the reason. US has already upgraded its tactical B61-12 nukes with precision guiding.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:05 am

    Rusσια to update Il-76LL (flying laboratory) 76454 for hypersonic tests



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1737712.html

    Did u notice that?? how exactly will be used?? will test hypersonic weapons??


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:52 am

    George1 wrote:Did u notice that?? how exactly will be used?? will test hypersonic weapons??
    I guess it will be used to launch hypersonic missiles.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:02 am

    Did u notice that?? how exactly will be used?? will test hypersonic weapons??

    Ziron springs to mind, but I suspect there are a range of long and very long range AAMs they will want to test from air platforms.

    Just having a 150kg hardened steel plug in the core of a mach 4-5 missile would mean an actual warhead would become unnecessary for targets like large ships or even heavy building structures.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Did u notice that?? how exactly will be used?? will test hypersonic weapons??

    Ziron springs to mind, but I suspect there are a range of long and very long range AAMs they will want to test from air platforms.

    Just having a 150kg hardened steel plug in the core of a mach 4-5 missile would mean an actual warhead would become unnecessary for targets like large ships or even heavy building structures.


    Correct me if I am wrong but Zircon is not 12Ma class but 7Ma class missile.

    Zircon speed: V = ~2,380 m/s
    Warhead energy eq for 1kg: Eq=0.5x(1kg) x V2 = 5,66x10 pow 6 Joules
    TNT equivalent of 1kg TNTeq= 4.184×106 J


    Energy delivery ratio for kinetic/chemical warhead is 1,35.

    With Ma=5 missile is 0,7 Thus explosive still can deliver 150% more energy to the point. More speed needed.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:00 pm


    The ministry of defense is planning launch of one RS-18 (UR-100NUTTH or SS-19). The liability insurance that would cover damages to third parties should anything go wrong for RS-18/UR-100NUTTH/SS-19 the coverage is much higher - 1.2 billion rubles (about $15.6 million). Which is probably not surprising - about the only reason to launch a UR-100NUTTH missile is to test the Project 4202 vehicle. Unlike all other launches, this kind of a test can do more damage on the ground if anything goes wrong. In any event, it is highly probable that Russia is planning one Project 4202 test in 2016-2017.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:03 am

    Lockheed’s Marillyn Hewson Touts Breakthroughs in Hypersonic Weapons





    Lockheed Martin’s unmanned SR-72 aircraft concept has surfaced again with renewed vigour, with company leadership now pushing a reusable, air-breathing hypersonic vehicle as an “affordable” way to validate a new propulsion concept for achieving speeds within the atmosphere between Mach 6.0 to Mach 20.

    Speaking at a Lockheed media event in Washington DC on 15 March, company chief executive Marillyn Hewson confirmed that the company is building on “several breakthroughs” made during the short-lived HTV-3X Blackswift hypersonic testbed, which was de-funded by Congress in fiscal year 2009, to develop “a controllable, low-drag aerodynamic configuration capable of stable operation from takeoff to subsonic, transonic, supersonic and hypersonic to Mach 6”.

    Hewson, while displaying an artist’s rendering of the SR-72, said it would cost “less than $1 billion” to develop and fly a demonstrator aircraft the size of an F-22 Raptor.

    Devised by Lockheed’s Skunk Works division, SR-72 employs a turbine-based combined cycle propulsion system to get above "Mach 1.5 to 2.0," at which point it would begin converting to a supersonic combustion ramjet for speeds beyond Mach 6.

    That’s according to Skunk Works head Rob Weiss, who confirmed that it would be an unmanned vehicle, at least at first. Hewson says the company’s long-term ambition is to “enable hypersonic passenger flights and easier access to space”.

    The company’s militarised spinoffs could be an air-breathing, hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft, or perhaps even new fighters and bombers further along.

    Weiss says there is government interest but no programme of record currently, although DARPA might want to pick up where Blackswift ended and launch a proof-of-concept demonstration.

    Lockheed revealed its next-generation version of the famed SR-71 Blackbird, the SR-72, in 2013 and has said it would hope to introduce a reusable hypersonic aircraft in the mid-2020s or so. The challenge is transitioning through Mach 3.0 – since modern turbojet engines are only capable of powering an aircraft to Mach 2.2, whereas typical ramjets don’t work below Mach 4.0.

    Hewson and Weiss pointed to Lockheed's investments in hypersonic propulsion technology and high-temperature materials but didn’t say exactly how their concept will transition to from zero all the way up to hypersonic speeds except through combined propulsion technologies.

    In addition, the company is pushing super-fast, rocket-boosted weapons. Weiss says Lockheed will submit proposals for DARPA’s Tactical Boost Glide (TBC) and Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) demonstration programmes “later this month or in early April”.


    TBG, a high-speed glide weapon launched from a common vertical launch silo, follows in the Mach 20 contrails of the Falcon HTV-2 experiments that failed in 2010 and 2011.

    HAWC, meanwhile, builds on HyFly and the Boeing X-51A scramjet demonstration that ended successfully in 2013 after four flights.

    Funding for TBG jumps from $11.2 million to $22.8 million in DARPA’s spending blueprint for fiscal year 2017, and HAWC funding rises from $13.5 million to $49.5 million over the same period.

    “Twenty-sixteen will be a decision on winners; more than one, likely, on one or both programmes,” says Weiss, adding that flight tests are planned for 2018.
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    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:48 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    The technologies used to achieve these hypersonic speeds include one or more of the following. With all of these technologies, the speed after the reentry can be higher or lower than the reentry speed.

    1- Very low-drag RV design with exotic heat-resistance techniques.

    2- RVs with propulsion systems like scramjet engines and/or rocket engines.

    3- Variable-geometry RVs.

    Great input as always Morpheus. Many Thanks.

    This is just going to open up into a long line of questions. .I don't want to bother you. Last one, though. I am venturing to guess you won't have the time to explain each of these technologies in details, so can you please share some links, from where I can read about these technologies? Thanks again.

    Thanks, jhelb,

    I'll continue this topic in some future posts.

    Here is a link; hopefully more would be posted later.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20150628/1023954331.html


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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