Russia and other developments in Hypersonic Research

Redboy wrote:Airborne launch is not quite new idea, there was an idea to launch satelites to orbit from TU-160. Iam not sure how far the whole concept was ( technology demonstrator, prototype?) but was canceled like any other interesting stuff in 90s.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/burlak.htm

And another airborne lauch project which atleast got to prototype stadium was anti-satelite system 30P6 Kontakt launched from modified Mig-31d.

introduce yourself redboy .

The above is from the bizarre things thread. Does it have anything to do with the Yu-71? The object is definitely not
a glider and you can see engine cut outs. It is also nearly exo-atmospheric judging from the spread of the engine exhaust.

2SPOOKY4U wrote:Btw, I doubt it is a glider.

It is a boost-glide vehicle according to Dancomm, who is relatively reliable in these things.

BTW, it's pretty annoying to see people talk about HYPERSONIC as if it's something special. We've used hypersonic vehicles for close to 60 years now, they are called ICBMs. The issue is to make hypersonic vehicles maneuverable at Vmax. That is the special sauce, not the velocity itself.

I would be very surprised if this thing that carried on top of huge SS-19 missile turns out just to be a manouverable glider at high speed , They have been building manouverable hypersonic glider since the days of Topol-M.

What makes a big manouverable glider better than small Manouverable glider carried by RS-24 or Topol-M , I suspect it is big its because it has some kind of propulsion.

Time will Tell.

Russian hypersonic "object 4202" eliminates the combat potential of the US missile defense

http://vpk-news.ru/news/26228

In case of successful completion of Russia's leading development work "4202" for the development and creation of hypersonic aircraft produced by the US global missile defense system would be meaningless

This was announced on Wednesday, Interfax-AVN source familiar with the situation.

"If Russia will have an aircraft that has already gained fame as" object 4202 ", capable of hypersonic speed to maneuver the pitch (vertical plane) and yaw (horizontal plane), our country will be able to solve the problem of guaranteed overcome any prospective missile defense system" , - the source said.

According to him, promising Russian supersonic aircraft "will allow to neutralize the combat potential of a global US missile defense and, in fact, make it meaningless."


Earlier in the press reported that over the past 10 years could be carried out to six launches "object 4202" using intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM), the RS-18B (UR-100N UTTKh) from the Baikonur cosmodrome and GMD missile Dombarovsky connection. The most recent of them - in February of this year. Officially it is not reported.

As the source said, "This year the test" object 4202 "will be continued." "By category hypersonic and we are actively working, and the Americans, and all are facing many challenges," - a spokesman said.

Speaking about the "object 4202," he explained that it was a fairly old design, "which is now considered as an intermediate in the way of creating a more modern combat units for the existing and future heavy ICBMs, including RS-28" Sarmat ".

So it's just a maneuverable glider in other words

flamming_python wrote:So it's just a maneuverable glider in other words

"Just"?

USSR never actually fielded an operational boost-glide MARV.

NPO Mashinostroyeniya worked on a prototype BGRV in late 80's, early 90's within a project called "Albatross". It was developed and flight-tested in 1990-1991, but never deployed as the project was closed down in favour of Yuzhmash/MIT project that eventually birthed Topol-M ("Universal").

I am guessing that the new project is a reincarnation of Albatross, especially considering that Yu-71 is being deployed on top of UR-100N (another NPO Mash baby)

artjomh wrote:

flamming_python wrote:So it's just a maneuverable glider in other words

"Just"?

USSR never actually fielded an operational boost-glide MARV.

NPO Mashinostroyeniya worked on a prototype BGRV in late 80's, early 90's within a project called "Albatross". It was developed and flight-tested in 1990-1991, but never deployed as the project was closed down in favour of Yuzhmash/MIT project that eventually birthed Topol-M ("Universal").

I am guessing that the new project is a reincarnation of Albatross, especially considering that Yu-71 is being deployed on top of UR-100N (another NPO Mash baby)

Thats not True , MaRV has been in development in 60/70 , USSR has been very secretive about its program.

Check Alexander Stukalin reply

http://russianforces.org/blog/2015/06/summary_of_the_project_4202_de.shtml

And why do You think, that Russia (Soviets) had failures in the MARV program? :-) Soviets had just very successful development on this subject... But 4202 project is not MARV... It is absolutely another vehicle.

I believe what they are testing is similar to earlier program

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/gla.html

Austin wrote:Thats not True , MaRV has been in development in 60/70 , USSR has been very secretive about its program.

Read what I said: "operationally deployed".

There was a lot of R&D done, but it was never deployed in an actual missile unit.

Also, keep in mind that Alexander is a journalist, while Dancomm is an RVSN staff officer. Who would you believe more?

artjomh wrote:

Austin wrote:Thats not True , MaRV has been in development in 60/70 , USSR has been very secretive about its program.

Read what I said: "operationally deployed".

There was a lot of R&D done, but it was never deployed in an actual missile unit.

Also, keep in mind that Alexander is a journalist, while Dancomm is an RVSN staff officer. Who would you believe more?

There are many evidence to suggest that atleast Topol-M had MaRV warhead of 800-900 kT yeald.

I dont know about previous version like Topol , Sineva has MaRV there is a picture of it somethere with a slightly angled nose RV

There are also different generation of MaRV

Topol-M had it , RS-24 has MaRV that is known to change height and direction ( pitch/Yaw ) that was confirmed by RVSN officer and Solmonov confirmed a reentry speed of more than 10 km/sec for RS-24 , then RS-26 is a advanced class of MaRV that does not use the Post Boost Vehical.

Even my own country India has MaRV since Agni-2 , A-3 , A-4 etc the difference is high beta co-effecient of Later Gen MaRV that allow for high re-entry velocity and longer glide towards the target.

Danacomm and Alexender are just conservative with truth , its still fog out there and MaRV etc are highly classified subject.

I think and I can bet on it from what Danacomm says and recent news on it

1 ) Project 4202  Boost Glider is for Global Targetting and can hit any where in Globe ( not limited to CONUS unlike case of ligher ICBM like Topol-M/RS-24 )

2 ) The fact they are using SS-19 platform to put that up shows they want a much longer reach and the payload or the glider is heavy , SS-19 has throw up weight of ~ 4 T

3 ) I think it can be a Glider or some Scramjet Platform with high manouverability at Vmax as you said it and can hit it extereme precision hence both conventional and light nuclear payload.

4 ) South Pole launches is possible

5 ) Designed to target multiple US ABM sites to prevent degrading of ICBM/SLBM capability.

Topol M and Yars hasn't MaRV system.

Arrow wrote:Topol M and Yars hasn't MaRV system.

Ofcourse do , MaRV was tested way back in 60's by US ...MaRV is not something out of reach

Austin, you are confusing things that are being researched or tested with things that are actually deployed.

Topol-M, Yars do not have any maneuverable reentry vehicle. Neither does Sineva. That photo of an RV with a kinked nose is something that Makeyev is developing, not something that is deployed on Sineva.



None of the currently operationally deployed Russian missiles have a maneuverable warhead. Some of them are being tested with MARV prototype, but I cannot stress it any more than this: it's just testing for potential future deployment, nothing else.

artjomh , so in your opinion who ( country ) has deployed MaRV so far ?

Austin wrote:artjomh , so in your opinion who ( country ) has deployed MaRV so far ?

I am almost certain that none of the P5 deploy one right now, although Russia, China and US are working on one.

Can't really say with regards to other powers, but considering their level of technology, I would lean toward a no.

So all the talk about maneuverable warheads is only talk?   More than proof by assertion is needed to back up this claim.
Russia has had deployed MARVs for over 10 years.

Austin, you are correct on this one.   I don't know where the "things are the same as in 1990" theme originates.   Must be
from MP net.

artjomh wrote:

Austin wrote:artjomh , so in your opinion who ( country ) has deployed MaRV so far ?

I am almost certain that none of the P5 deploy one right now, although Russia, China and US are working on one.

Can't really say with regards to other powers, but considering their level of technology, I would lean toward a no.

This is the official picture of Topol-M Trajectory released by Russian MOD



The dotted lines represent Ballistic Trajectory and the Solid Lines are trajectory of Topol-M .

As you can see Topol-M RV flies a trajectory that after attaining height achieves a steep dive and then gains height and then boost glides steeply to the target travelling thousands of Km.

Its called a propoise trajectory , its also covered in a must read book "Lightning Bolts, First Maneuvering Reentry Vehicles by William Yengst "



I can rest my case about MaRV

For any one interested in Reading on BGRV , My Friend Arun has done extensive research on BGRV , I am linking an article below.

It covers BGRV Subject quite well , It quite informative read on the subject.

Also if you can do buy the book Lightening Bolts

http://www.slideshare.net/ramana_56/bgrv-and-indian-missiles-arun-vishwakarma-rev-1-c-9600008

Austin wrote:This is the official picture of Topol-M Trajectory released by Russian MOD

No, Austin, it is not.

The text there says "Trajectory of a new hypersonic flight vehicle". It's the flight path for a new prototype, it doesn't say anything about this particular RV used in operational Topol-M units.

And thank you for the presentation, Austin. I've read Lightning Bolts, but it's nice to see that developments in India are also proceeding.

artjomh , Lets agree to disagree here.

I have followed Russian Strategic Forces for long time now more than 10 years and my own country development , I am convinced Russia has Advanced MaRV since Topol-M and with RS-24 and RS-26 they have progressed much ahead in that field.

I dont expect the Russians to actually show the RV warhead and say this is the one we use for Topol-M , this is the one we use for RS-24 , RS-26 and so fourth ,my own country does not do that. They would just say something generic with a generic diagram of RV trajectory for smart people to understand what they are talking about without giving much information

There are enough people out there in Intelligence that can glean a lot of information just based on RV Design and its other parameters via just pictures etc

But what the Russian Strategic forces commander , Interview from Yuri Solmonov etc clearly shows many different generations of MaRV are developed.

One more evidence if there is need of any

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-real-dangers-of-war-new-russian-strategic-missiles-can-penetrate-u-s-missile-shield/28234

The capabilities of such combat means were demonstrated to U.S. technical control means during the trials of the Yars ground-based mobile missile system and the Bulava sea-based missile system. It also concerns hypersonic warheads capable of performing altitude and trajectory maneuvers,” he told journalists.

“The new missiles have characteristics that allow them to stay invulnerable at all sections of their flight,” Karakayev said.

“Today we have to vigorously respond to America’s missile defense build-up because the U.S. has chosen to ignore Russia’s concerns over it,” the commander said.

Austin, warhead sections are not shown during START inspections, they are always under shroud.

Also, I think you slightly misunderstood the context of that article. Karakayev says that Yars/Bulava were demonstrated to Americans and are able to pierce US missile defense due to having pen aids. And then, as a second point, he also mentioned that hypersonic RVs can also overcome the missile defense shield.

Translation is a bit awkward in that part, but I fould the original quotation from Red Star.

Уже сейчас практически все находящиеся на вооружении РВСН ракетные комплексы шахтного и мобильного базирования оснащены головной частью с комплексом средств преодоления ПРО, заметил генерал-лейтенант Сергей Каракаев.

– Возможности такого боевого оснащения были продемонстрированы техническим средствам контроля США во время испытаний подвижного грунтового ракетного комплекса «Ярс» и морского ракетного комплекса «Булава». Это касается и гиперзвуковых боевых блоков, которые имеют возможность маневрировать по высоте и курсу, – сказал он и добавил, что для решения задачи прорыва ПРО новые ракеты обладают такими характеристиками, которые позволяют говорить об их неуязвимости на всех участках их полёта.

http://old.redstar.ru/2011/12/17_12/1_01.html

Karakayev does not mention that Yars or Bulava have a hypersonic maneuverable warhead, only penetration aids are mentioned.

In any case, I agree to disagree. Let's not belabour the point.

I have followed Russian Strategic Forces for long time now more than 10 years and my own country development , I am convinced Russia has Advanced MaRV since Topol-M and with RS-24 and RS-26 they have progressed much ahead in that field.

The main problem with applying logic to the situation is that often logic would dictate some things that simply are not true.

A good example was the Aurora... a supposed Mach 6 recon aircraft talked about a lot in the 1980s as the replacement for the SR-71. I mean if you look at what they did with the SR-71 back then of course it makes sense that a plane from the 1980s would be twice as fast... look at the way computing power exploded... the problem is barriers... breaking the sound barrier created a lot of problems all of which needed to be solved before real progress could be made... and to be honest there are a lot of heat related problems that need to be solved before a mach 6 aircraft become practical including engine technology.

There is a need for things to be able to manouver at very high speed... the Russians have SAMs that fly at mach 7 already so it is not a shot in the dark, but putting something into service is all together another thing.

Karakayev does not mention that Yars or Bulava have a hypersonic maneuverable warhead, only penetration aids are mentioned.

In any case, I agree to disagree. Let's not belabour the point.

Considering the US efforts in ABMs are not super successful, I suspect the Russians have a bit of time before they need hypersonic death gliders in their ICBMs and SLBMs... work on Zircon will compliment the work... I remember reading a while back that their various institutions working on hypersonic vehicles were amalgamated to pool resources and money.

Mindstorm wrote:

Mindstorm Brahmos 2 is a tactical system not having a range of more than 300 km.

And Zircon-S has been mentioned as having a range of ~ 1000 km.

If you mean Zircon-S would use a Scramjet Engine and would thus be Air Breathing Cruise Missile compared to Arclight which is Boost Glide Hypersonic Platform using Ballistic Flight then i understand the technical difference there.

But Zircon-S would do Mach 5 - 7 compared to Arclight Mach 12 reentry speed which may get reduced as it enters atmosphere but perhaps not much it would still remain hypersonic.

Bottom line is both are hypersonic platform although Arclight has a longer legs and uses different concept.

Hopefully the Russians are not sleeping and are working on similar Arc light like concept.

The head of tactical missile bureau once mentioned that the next goal with scramjet would be to hit Mach 12-13

I wish Mindstorm could read this but usa hypersonic missile Arclight is LONG DEAD .


Pentagon terminated Long Range Hypersonic Arc Light Missile in 2011

max steel wrote:

Mindstorm wrote:    

Mindstorm Brahmos 2 is a tactical system not having a range of more than 300 km.

And Zircon-S has been mentioned as having a range of ~ 1000 km.

If you mean Zircon-S would use a Scramjet Engine and would thus be Air Breathing Cruise Missile compared to Arclight which is Boost Glide Hypersonic Platform using Ballistic Flight then i understand the technical difference there.

But Zircon-S would do Mach 5 - 7 compared to Arclight Mach 12 reentry speed which may get reduced as it enters atmosphere but perhaps not much it would still remain hypersonic.

Bottom line is both are hypersonic platform although Arclight has a longer legs and uses different concept.

Hopefully the Russians are not sleeping and are working on similar Arc light like concept.

The head of tactical missile bureau once mentioned that the next goal with scramjet would be to hit Mach 12-13

I wish Mindstorm could read this but usa hypersonic missile Arclight is LONG DEAD .


Pentagon  terminated Long Range Hypersonic Arc Light Missile in 2011

Did Mindstorm actually write that?

And I am pretty sure whatever is going on with 4202 is the real equivalent to Arclight, and that is where USA is going as well.