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    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:41 pm

    Making it manouverable is of no use if it does not manouver at the right time...  a 9g capable fighter flying straight and level is a simple target for an AA gunner, and also a manouverable glider is no use if it manouvers to evade the ABM but misses the target it was launched to hit.

    I suspect the new hypersonic gliders the Russians are developing are going under the nose cones of their newest ICBMs and SLBMs and they wont talk much about them...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:32 pm

    So basically what are the problems in making a hypersonic missile? Is the surface of missile that add resistance? Well a crystal like atoms positioning material could deliver a clean surface. Just make the test whit materials note down the atomic structure and here we are. And the problem may also be that electrons of the surface of material give friction whit air because all are not moving same time. A crystal like material could deliver a clean area. Or a material where orbitals are under the protons which would have direct contact whit air.
    Well about heat...that depend also about the friction. You can have "necks" all over missile that reduce frictiton whit the surface right like the way if you stay in the back of a hill. Thus will have a cooler area too.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:36 pm

    Maibe a coolant agent around sensors would work.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:27 am

    The two main hurdles are heat and propulsion.

    that is maintaining strength and stability, while maintaining speed... scramjet will likely provide the latter, while new materials and new designs that pump fuel through the heated sections of the aircrafts skin to stop it from melting could be another solution.

    One of the other problems is examining the forces involved in manouvering at such speeds.

    Not impossible, but very similar to breaking the sound barrier in terms of problems needing solutions.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Arrow on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:35 am

    So Chinese hypersonic program has more advanced than Russian ? Successful launch Wu-14 and still fail russian 4202 program.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  EKS on Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:53 pm

    Arrow wrote:So Chinese hypersonic program has more advanced  than Russian ? Successful launch Wu-14 and still fail russian 4202 program.

    No I think that´s a simplistic conclusion and a wrong one just bases on press releases and the view things we now about the russian program. We simpky don´t have enough information. We know nothing about the aim of the progam (except the obvious), the goals of the program (except the obvious), the designsolutions, the desired specs, and the test-results.

    So basicly there ain´t much to discuss, but only much to speculate about.

    One thing is on my mind, it´s breathtaking to learn about all the programs the Russian Military are implementing. The 90-ties are gone! Hoera!


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:02 pm

    So Chinese hypersonic program has more advanced than Russian ?

    I really don't know how you can say that... how much do you know about all the Russian hypersonic programmes?

    they have a hypersonic naval missile programme that will likely result in an operational weapon within the next decade or so, and they probably already have hypersonic glide vehicles for their ICBM and SLBM warheads to evade ABM systems and may already have the latter in service.

    remember the Buran is a hypersonic glide vehicle and they had several other scale model tests for several others from 30-40 years ago...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:14 pm

    but Buran is an OTV like X-37B. not a hgv .

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    New hypersonic lgider?

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:29 pm


    http://vz.ru/news/2015/6/25/752820.html

    Moscow is developing a hypersonic strategic shock aircraft, similar to Chinese, reported by the Western media, citing military analysts.


    Yu-71 (Yu-71) was in development for several years. The last test aircraft took place in February of 2015. The launch took place from the landfill Dombarovsky near Orenburg. Earlier about him supposedly pure it was reported other Western sources have now confirmed the launch of new analysts. The publication refers to is dated June the report of the famous Western military-analytical center Jane's Information Group. As noted in the document, it will give Russia the opportunity to deliver high-precision strikes on selected targets, and in combination with the capabilities of its missile defense system, Moscow will be able to successfully hit a target only one missile.
    The report suggested that up to 24 of these hypersonic air vehicles (warheads) can be deployed in located in Dombarovskiy the shelf of the strategic missile forces in the period from 2020 to 2025. Also, the document says that by that time Russia will build a new heavy Intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) "Sarmat"capable of carrying yu-71.

    Previously in open sources attentions – th-71 – did not appear.



    The Pentagon declined to comment on the Russian test of a hypersonic aircraft.

    Recall that in early June it was reported that the Chinese military spent another successful test of the shock of a hypersonic aircraft WU-14, is able to break through the defense system of the USA and to launch a nuclear strike.

    The first flight test of a new hypersonic gliding flying machine China spent in January of 2014. Then the media reported that, "according to officials, the hypersonic machine, apparently, is meant to run on one of Intercontinental ballistic missiles, then the path to the goal from the near-earth space he could plan and develop speed up to ten times exceeding the speed of sound".

    In July 2014, it was reported that China leads development reactive hypersonic cruise missile in addition to the WU-14. It was reported that Chinese development is similar to experimental hypersonic unmanned X-43 developed by NASA. According to published sources, the Chinese rocket can reach speeds of 8 thousand miles per hour.

    Experts say that the missile can be a strike weapon against U.S. aircraft carriers and warships.

    Judging by the fact that is not reported to the contrary, the Chinese test development were successful. While the recent flight test of a non-nuclear hypersonic weapons in the United States failed.



    The Pentagon declined to comment on the Russian test of a hypersonic aircraft.

    Recall that in early June it was reported that the Chinese military spent another successful test of the shock of a hypersonic aircraft WU-14, is able to break through the defense system of the USA and to launch a nuclear strike.

    The first flight test of a new hypersonic gliding flying machine China spent in January of 2014. Then the media reported that, "according to officials, the hypersonic machine, apparently, is meant to run on one of Intercontinental ballistic missiles, then the path to the goal from the near-earth space he could plan and develop speed up to ten times exceeding the speed of sound".

    In July 2014, it was reported that China leads development reactive hypersonic cruise missile in addition to the WU-14. It was reported that Chinese development is similar to experimental hypersonic unmanned X-43 developed by NASA. According to published sources, the Chinese rocket can reach speeds of 8 thousand miles per hour.

    Experts say that the missile can be a strike weapon against U.S. aircraft carriers and warships.

    Judging by the fact that is not reported to the contrary, the Chinese test development were successful. While the recent flight test of a non-nuclear hypersonic weapons in the United States failed.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:57 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    http://vz.ru/news/2015/6/25/752820.html

    Moscow is developing a hypersonic strategic shock aircraft, similar to Chinese, reported by the Western media, citing military analysts.









    I
    Experts say that the missile can be a strike weapon against U.S. aircraft carriers and warships.

    Judging by the fact that is not reported to the contrary, the Chinese test development were successful. While the recent flight test of a non-nuclear hypersonic weapons in the United States failed.





    Experts say that the missile can be a strike weapon against U.S. aircraft carriers and warships.

    Judging by the fact that is not reported to the contrary, the Chinese test development were successful. While the recent flight test of a non-nuclear hypersonic weapons in the United States failed.



    Russian hypersonic glider test which occured in february was apparently unsuccessful . See my post on the previous page .

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:13 am

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20150628/1023954331.html

    Russia is test-launching a new hypersonic attack aircraft that can carry nuclear warheads and penetrate missile defense systems, US media said citing a report by Jane's Information Group.
    The development of the Yu-71 vehicle took several years, and Russia reportedly conducted the most recent test flight on February 26, with an SS-19 missile trying to deliver the Yu-71 to space. The new hypersonic aircraft is part of Moscow's plans to modernize its Strategic Missile Forces.

    Yu-71, a secret missile program codenamed "Project 4202", has probable speed of up to 11,200 kmh (7,000 mph) and is extremely maneuverable, which makes it an incredibly dangerous and a hardly targetable weapon.

    Thanks to its speed and unpredictable trajectory, Yu-71 can evade an enemy's missile defense systems.

    "This would give Russia the ability to deliver a guaranteed small-scale strike against a target of choice; if coupled with an ability to penetrate missile defenses, Moscow would also retain the option of launching a successful single-missile attack."

    The report's authors assume that Russia may put into service up to 24 nuclear-capable Yu-71 aircraft between 2020 and 2025. Moreover, by that time Russia may have developed the Sarmat - a new ICBM that will carry the new hypersonic device.

    The report also said that Russia's next generation strategic stealth bomber PAK DA will carry hypersonic cruise missiles.


    "Russia may put into service up to 24 nuclear-capable Yu-71 aircraft"


    Mindstorm was right.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:58 am

    But project 4202 february test was apparently unsuccessful . Mad

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:30 am

    max steel wrote:But project 4202 february test was apparently unsuccessful . Mad

    Source? Proof? Link?

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:08 am

    Secret Russian Hypersonic Nuke Glider Can Pierce Any Missile Defense

    Extremely maneuverable, ultra-fast and elusive, the hypersonic Yu-71 can break through any missile defense system, military experts said. Russia has reportedly carried out four tests already.
    The Russian military is receiving new man-portable air-defense systems that outshine such powerful weapons as the Stinger and Igla-S.

    Russia is test-launching a new hypersonic attack aircraft that can carry nuclear warheads and penetrate missile defense systems, US media said citing a report by Jane's Information Group.

    The development of the Yu-71 vehicle took several years, and Russia reportedly conducted the most recent test flight on February 26, with an SS-19 missile trying to deliver the Yu-71 to space. The new hypersonic aircraft is part of Moscow's plans to modernize its Strategic Missile Forces.

    Yu-71, a secret missile program codenamed "Project 4202", has probable speed of up to 11,200 kmh (7,000 mph) and is extremely maneuverable, which makes it an incredibly dangerous and a hardly targetable weapon.

    Thanks to its speed and unpredictable trajectory, Yu-71 can evade an enemy's missile defense systems.

    "This would give Russia the ability to deliver a guaranteed small-scale strike against a target of choice; if coupled with an ability to penetrate missile defenses, Moscow would also retain the option of launching a successful single-missile attack."

    The report's authors assume that Russia may put into service up to 24 nuclear-capable Yu-71 aircraft between 2020 and 2025. Moreover, by that time Russia may have developed the Sarmat - a new ICBM that will carry the new hypersonic device.

    The report also said that Russia's next generation strategic stealth bomber PAK DA will carry hypersonic cruise missiles.

    China has tested its hypersonic strike vehicle Wu-14 at least four times since January 2014, seriously alarming the Pentagon, as the device may reportedly neutralize the US anti-missile shield.

    The United States is also engineering a similar device AHW (Advanced Hypersonic Weapon) as a part of its Prompt Global Strike program, which is not covered by the 2010 New START Treaty with Russia.

    Jane's experts predict that Moscow may use the new hypersonic aircraft as an ace in the sleeve during arms control talks with Washington.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150628/1023954331.html#ixzz3eQru4Jq4


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:00 am

    Check Hypersonic weapons thread .

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:03 pm

    Hardly important... you can often learn more from a failure than from a success...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  marcellogo on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:38 pm

    Don't understand: it is supposed to be launched by some intercontinental ballstic missile or will at a certain point be able to take off by normal means?

    In the first case, apart for needing a Baikonur style preparation every time , it would mean a big nuclear missile alert every time one of them is launched.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:47 pm

    Hypersonic Missile Arm Race: US Walking a Tightrope in East Asian Region




    Washington is walking a tightrope in the East Asian region: the Sino-American hypersonic missile arm race may prompt a rapid escalation of tensions between the two sides with certain destabilizing effects, military expert Eleni G. Ekmektsioglou notes.

    The hypersonic missile arm race between the United States and China may prompt a rapid military escalation in the East Asian region, dragging it into the abyss of instability, PhD Researcher and Research Assistant at the American University School of International Service Eleni G. Ekmektsioglou noted.

    According to the scholar "military thinking so far has been dominated by the use of brute force… instead of coercive force that leaves the final choice to the opponent."

    "The latter [coercive force] would be more expedient in a regional conflict scenario where the United States faces a nuclear force while at the same time the objective at stake does not justify an all-out war effort," she elaborated.


    The United States has been pursuing its conventional prompt global strike (CPGS) high precision technology, aimed at "striking a target anywhere in the world within one hour's time," since late 1970s. The idea has caught its second wind after 9/11, during the Bush administration.

    Although CPGS had been initially meant for counterterrorism operations, very soon the concept has taken on a new meaning of a prompt "counternuclear" strike. "Counternuclear is broader and more comprehensive than counterforce since it targets nuclear warheads, C4ISR systems as well as production and storage facilities," the scholar elaborated.

    The Obama administration praises the development of the CPGS program. However, Washington's course has triggered growing concerns among Chinese policy-makers. Beijing fears that the program is aimed at containing China.

    "Specifically, Chinese experts talk about the scenario of China being subject to American coercion, a concern that is mainly due to US nuclear superiority, which — married to BMD [Ballistic Missile Defense] and a conventional pre-emptive strike enabled by CPGS — puts at risk the Chinese retaliatory capability," Ms. Ekmektsioglou emphasized.

    In order to equalize opportunities, China kicked off its own hypersonic missile projects. The Chinese tests carried out in January and August 2014 had demonstrated clearly that Beijing entered the competition.

    "Over the last several years, talk has heated up over Beijing's DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM), with a maneuverable warhead and range at around 1,500 km, taking many U.S. experts and high echelon officers by surprise," the scholar stressed.


    he CPGS technology is considered a game changer in the traditional warfare. Indeed, its accuracy and speed that allows to penetrate an adversary's BMD systems may significantly bolster both US' and China's military capabilities.

    But on the other hand, it leads to "two-sided escalation situations."
    A surprise attack and a tough response to it leave "no room for signaling and diplomacy," and, unfortunately, the "escalation control" is just a "wishful thinking" in the troublesome East Asian regional environment.

    "Hypersonic weapons add to the complexity and elusiveness of the escalatory dynamics and this is something both sides will need to plan for," the scholar emphasized.


    http://sputniknews.com/military/20150628/1023960432.html#ixzz3eTD0ziSV

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:36 pm

    marcellogo wrote:Don't understand: it is supposed to be launched by some intercontinental ballstic missile or will at a certain point be able to take off by normal means?

    In the first case, apart for needing a Baikonur style preparation every time , it would mean a big nuclear missile alert every time one of them is launched.

    "Baikonur style preparation every time"

    You do realize it is launched off of Topol-M?

    Which is a silo-based missile, no warning.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:14 am

    In the first case, apart for needing a Baikonur style preparation every time , it would mean a big nuclear missile alert every time one of them is launched.

    Not when you can launch ICBMs from the back of a truck that is not bound by the new START treaty on where it can be located and where it can operate... Smile

    They could load it on to an AN-124 and fly it to a small airfield in Cuba... drive down the ramp of the aircraft and launch... drive back into the Antonov and fly away... Smile

    It is not a nuclear weapon as such so it could be flown to Cuba or anywhere they want...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:18 am

    but Buran is an OTV like X-37B. not a hgv .

    Buran was a glider... you could remove it from its Energyia rocket and replace it with any 120 ton external "glider" and launch it into space.

    In comparison the Space Shuttle was a very over weight aircraft with a huge fuel tank and solid rocket boosters to get it moving... think an A4 Skyhawk with a 50,000 litre fuel tank and solid rocket boosters to get the whole thing moving...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  jhelb on Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:56 am

    GarryB wrote:Not when you can launch ICBMs from the back of a truck that is not bound by the new START treaty on where it can be located and where it can operate...  Smile

    Garry, what would be the weight of a Russian ICBM that can be launched from the back of a truck?

    IIRC, the 100 ton ICBMs can only be launched from silos and not truck.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:53 am

    Depends how heavy your glider is... the TOPOL-M launches a 47 ton missile with a 1.2 ton payload 11,000kms... I am pretty sure that if the payload had its own propulsion a similar range could be achieved with a heavier payload...


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:32 am

    Russia is working to create an "Airborne launch"

    http://topwar.ru/32976-rossiya-rabotaet-nad-sozdaniem-vozdushnogo-starta.html

    After 2-3 years the Russian aviation and missile system for space applications, developed within the framework of the project "Air launch", may conduct the first tests. Latest version ARCC "Air launch" was presented at the held in Zhukovsky near Moscow air show MAKS-2013. The implementation of this project deals with the State rocket center (SRC). Makeev, who developed it jointly with a private company "Flight". Leading specialist grts Sergey Egorov in an interview with the website "Socinformburo" noted that in 2-3 years we will know all. According to Yegorov, the company "Flight" is ready to provide for practical tests of the An-124-100 "Ruslan". In the initial phase of testing with the help of the layout will be observing the discharge of the cargo from the aircraft and the initial stages of launch.

    Sergey Egorov noted that the interest in this innovative project has increased, including from the Ministry of defense of Russia, and therefore expressed the hope to achieve good results. The expert believes that this project can be used to launch military satellites. Air launch is a project, which is a system that orbit the Earth spacecraft with the help of the carrier rocket on environmentally friendly fuel, which starts aboard large transport aircraft A-124-100.

    "Ruslan" with a missile, which is in a reusable container, in a given area at an altitude of about 10,000 meters performs a "hill". At this point the missile is ejected from the container with the help of parageneratorov, at a distance of 200-250 meters away from the plane it turns on the main engine and controlled flight starts on a given trajectory of the orbit. Specialist grts them. Makeev, highlighted some of the major advantages of the complex with this method start. In the first place is no need to build expensive starting ground complexes, the use of different areas of start-up, early planning exclusion zones for drop detachable stage of the rocket, as well as the possibility of increasing the payload.





    GarryB wrote:

    Not when you can launch ICBMs from the back of a truck that is not bound by the new START treaty on where it can be located and where it can operate... Smile

    They could load it on to an AN-124 and fly it to a small airfield in Cuba... drive down the ramp of the aircraft and launch... drive back into the Antonov and fly away... Smile

    It is not a nuclear weapon as such so it could be flown to Cuba or anywhere they want...

    An-124 is in little nos and vulnerable for AAD. And why to Cuba? Cuba is about beautiful music, sexy ladies and very friendly people and Cohibas (as far as I had contacts with Cubans Smile

    Better airborne ICBM launch. Costs are not lowest but survivability in huge country like Russia is priceless! Technology looks like is not there is just in reach. And there are no legal problems with this since 2009 no starts salts and so on do not fobid Russia to do it (AFAIK previously US demanded to include airbocne ICBM launch guess why? Smile ...







    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Not when you can launch ICBMs from the back of a truck that is not bound by the new START treaty on where it can be located and where it can operate...  Smile

    Garry, what would be the weight of a Russian ICBM that can be launched from the back of a truck?

    IIRC, the 100 ton ICBMs can only be launched from silos and not truck.

    No so much pessimism, mate. There are mobile ICBMs on trucks like Rubezh/Yars Smile

    Yars ~49ton
    Bulava ~36 tons


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    new hypersonic attack aircraft

    Post  jhelb on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:07 am

    GarryB wrote:I am pretty sure that if the payload had its own propulsion a similar range could be achieved with a heavier payload...

    Yes, MIRVs do have propulsion. That is also how they maneuver. However the propulsion comes into play only after the payload leaves the missile.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    No so much pessimism, mate. There are mobile ICBMs on trucks like Rubezh/Yars Smile

    Yars ~49ton
    Bulava ~36 tons

    That's what I said as well Very Happy

    The heavier 100 ton ICBMs can only be launched from silos and not trucks.

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