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    Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

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    victor1985

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:42 pm

    Material that passes electrons to a gas in which electricity is put and become again a laser

    victor1985

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:47 pm

    TR1 wrote:Pay me the amount of money he gets, and I will talk about "all domestic" too all over Twitter and take photo opps in snazzy jackets every other day.


    Come back to me when Rogozin actually does something without cameras around him.
    what russians want from rogozin?

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:51 pm

    Or better asking if we talk about politics what you think about former president of ukraine that as long as i know right now lives in moskov viktor yanukovich

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:00 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:AFAIK the longest distance that US supersonic traveled was 426 km and 5.1 mach ,the missile destroyed and they descibed it as a complete success !

    The general director of the corporation "Tactical Missiles" said that Samples hypersonic weapon systems, which reached Mach 8.6 speed, should appear before the end of 2020.

    I think Russia doesn't need such technology ,for what ? Russia needs to spend this money on more practical weapons to create a complete high tech military ,
    Also i prefer to spend my money to improve my health than to invest on such a weapon that is bullsh!t for me .
    as your signature says USA attacked 44 nations since 1985.this shows that they wanna impose a way. That is not true democracy. Communists have rised as a power of the people where even weak ones have a word. USA says others are dictators but themselfs are more that that. A truly free world would put in question even the basis of america: capitalism. But no! You cant say a word against capitalists because they got angry.
    So the point when you have things whit this kind of people safety against weapons is a must. And in this world safety is always a must.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Obviously one problem is propulsion or indeed multiple propulsion systems for different stages of flight.

    The SR-71 showed what could be done in that regard... it uses two large turbojet engines, but in a special arrangement that allows the air to bypass the turbojet engines and just pass through empty tubes to the rear where the after burner is.

    An empty tube with an afterburner on the end is called a ramjet, where air is sucked in and compressed and then fuel is added and ignited generating thrust.

    So you simply use the turbojet engine to get the aircraft into the air and put it in full after burner and climb. As you get faster and faster you start feeding air around the turbojet till eventually all the air is going around the turbojet and you can shut the turbojets down and just run on ramjets.

    At very high speeds turbojets have problems because the rotational speeds of the blades in the engines gets so high the blades break and the engines overheat.

    So, I wonder, how could the heat on a missile tip be conducted thro a missile and then transferred to the propulsion and cooling units?
    Currently, I think insulators are used ie something that will stop the heat spreading into the missile. But surely that is hindering the missile AND a waste of energy?

    There are a few ideas... one is to use materials that remain strong when heated to high temperatures like Titanium, or ceramic materials. Another option is ablative materials like those used on the heat tiles of the Space Shuttle. Yet another option is a porous skin on the leading edge where friction with the air heats the surface, where you can pump fuel through to keep it cool. Rocket nozzles for very large missiles and space rockets use this method to keep the nozzles from melting already so it is not as far fetched as it might sound.

    Obviously there would be problems if you get a fuel blockage and the fuel stopped flowing...

    So getting back to my point,I wonder how could the missile draw friction heat in from the tip to enhance performance( and indeed keep the missile intact)?

    I rather suspect the final answer will be a combination of new heat resistent ceramic materials that use fuel to distribute heat to the fuel tank and could be used to prep the fuel before it goes to the engine.

    Maybe decades into the future,a technology can be developed to absorb laser energy and redirect it towards an attacker?

    Like a mirror? Smile

    there are materials who conduct well heat but not melt down? I think they can conduct heat outside in the air. Point is is needed a special shape to conduct air but that shape goes all to heating. Changing the shape dont help cause performace is reduced. So there are two criteria that must be acomplished: best shape remain and cooling engine. That throws all in air comportament study and materials behaviour study.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:16 am

    What about a tandem of very resistance material on surface of missile and a liquid inside that transfer the heat? But problem is liquid must be incastrated in material which would have a different heat transfer so heat is loosed. Maybe a heat that is transformed into electrical energy then electrical energy into propulsion?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:03 am

    From what I have read they prefer the idea of using fuel to cool the heated surfaces as preheating the fuel makes it burn hotter generating more thrust.

    Of course finding materials that retain structural strength when heated to very high temperatures is useful, and I suspect recent breakthroughs in high temperature aluminium suggest potential for existing materials to be made better at taking heat and retaining strength.


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    max steel

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:07 pm

    George1 wrote:Flight test of a Project 4202 vehicle

    Russia appears to have conducted a flight test of the Project 4202 vehicle on February 26, 2015 from one of the silos in Dombarovskiy. Project 4202 is believed to be some kind of a hypersonic vehicle that will be delivered by the UR-100NUTTH/SS-19 missile. (See also the earlier post.)

    Project 4202 launches have never been officially acknowledged, but bits of information appear here and there and there are enough dots to connect, so there is a fairly high degree of certainty that the launch indeed took place. (I must say that I can claim no credit for finding the dots - most of them have been discovered by others.)

    First, TsENKI (Center for Operation of Space Ground-Based Infrastructure) in its 2014 acquisition plan listed two Project 4202-related contracts. In the document, the launch is scheduled to take place in January 2015, but it was later postponed. Industry sources were said to confirm that the test was moved to February.

    And indeed, on February 26, 2015 a note on a Russian site, which is known to be well connected and generally reliable, said something to the effect that a test is upcoming. The post has been removed since, but only after it was updated to say that the test was unsuccessful.

    Finally, a number of people have found a message posted by someone from Yasnyy (which is the name of the city at the Dombarovskiy missile base) later on February 26. The author said that in Yasnyy people felt a missile launch that took place around 13:00 local time (that would be 8:00 UTC).

    The February 26, 2015 launch is not the first flight test of the Project 4202 system - at least one took place around September 26, 2013. It appears that another test took place some time in 2014, maybe in September. All we know about the 2014 test is that there is an unaccounted event in the official record of launches conduced that year (the 2013 4202 launch also was not included in the official account). None of the test appear to have been successful.

    I guess we'll have to wait for a successful flight test to see an official report on Project 4202 and learn more about the system.

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2015/02/flight_test_of_a_project_4202.shtml


    Thanks to me . I guess no one was aware about that blog/link unless I shared it . Viva La Russia russia

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:From what I have read they prefer the idea of using fuel to cool the heated surfaces as preheating the fuel makes it burn hotter generating more thrust.

    Of course finding materials that retain structural strength when heated to very high temperatures is useful, and I suspect recent breakthroughs in high temperature aluminium suggest potential for existing materials to be made better at taking heat and retaining strength.
    temperature of melt down must be related to strong force and weak force of atoms since when they melt atoms have weak link between them. A way to strong those forces would make a material that resist to high temperatures. Foton is also affected by heat. He looses energy. Maybe a metal in which the atoms that are hot go to and end of material and when they are cooled get back where they had stayd and replace the atoms that are heating. And ove and over again.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:33 pm

    In fact study of brownian movemwnt between molecules and atoms should help to this

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:36 pm

    More specific the interaction forces between molecules
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    George1

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  George1 on Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:54 pm

    Russia hopes to have hypersonic missile in 2020

    As the Defense Ministry said later Russia had already created a formula of the propellant required for accelerating missiles to such speeds

    MOSCOW, March 13. /TASS/. Russia’s Perspective Research Foundation (FPI) is creating an integrated system of modeling for the development of hypersonic aircraft. The system will be made entirely of domestically produced computation modules, the fund’s deputy general director, Vitaly Davydov, told TASS.

    Last spring there were reports that the program for creating hypersonic missile technologies in Russia had been finalized already and the first hypersonic missile is to be delivered by 2020. Hypersonic vehicles are expected to fly five times faster than the speed of sound (Mach 5). As the Defense Ministry said later Russia had already created a formula of the propellant required for accelerating missiles to such speeds.

    "Now we’ve got to pool efforts by all research centers and organizations operating in that field. For that there should be created one center accumulating all research data and making them available to the contractors concerned. In our opinion there should be no situations in which some researchers have achieved success in thermal or aerodynamic computations, but nobody can use them, because there is no access," Davydov explained.

    He believes that the project will make it possible to create a national library of software for supercomputers capable of performing full functional modeling of hypersonic flight vehicles in the interests of all manufacturers involved.

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  victor1985 on Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:15 pm

    Can a rocket have wind pressure sensors?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:50 pm

    Or how about, Mig-GarryBM?

    Arrgh... do you mean MiG?

    Can a rocket have wind pressure sensors?

    Of course...


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    Rmf

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Rmf on Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:23 am

    George1 wrote:Russia hopes to have hypersonic missile in 2020

    As the Defense Ministry said later Russia had already created a formula of the propellant required for accelerating missiles to such speeds

    MOSCOW, March 13. /TASS/. Russia’s Perspective Research Foundation (FPI) is creating an integrated system of modeling for the development of hypersonic aircraft. The system will be made entirely of domestically produced computation modules, the fund’s deputy general director, Vitaly Davydov, told TASS.

    Last spring there were reports that the program for creating hypersonic missile technologies in Russia had been finalized already and the first hypersonic missile is to be delivered by 2020. Hypersonic vehicles are expected to fly five times faster than the speed of sound (Mach 5). As the Defense Ministry said later Russia had already created a formula of the propellant required for accelerating missiles to such speeds.

    "Now we’ve got to pool efforts by all research centers and organizations operating in that field. For that there should be created one center accumulating all research data and making them available to the contractors concerned. In our opinion there should be no situations in which some researchers have achieved success in thermal or aerodynamic computations, but nobody can use them, because there is no access," Davydov explained.

    He believes that the project will make it possible to create a national library of software for supercomputers capable of performing full functional modeling of hypersonic flight vehicles in the interests of all manufacturers involved.

    still hopeing. ...
    probably just hydrogen ,or some mix of hydrogen and other conventional fuel . hypersonic combustion is very unstable and complicated.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:52 am

    Actually supersonic combustion is tricky at the moment... ramjets are widespread and other jet engine types all use subsonic combustion.

    Scramjet or super sonic combustion ram jet engines will expand the operational range for jet engines from takeoff to orbital speeds of mach 25 and beyond...

    Modern jet engines use ramps in the inlets to reduce the speed of incoming air so when it goes through the turbojet engine it is subsonic where the fuel can be burned.

    The F-16 is limited to mach 2 because it has a simple air intake that doesn't slow the air down so at about mach 2 it stops generating more thrust and chokes on the incoming supersonic air.

    The Mach 3.5 capable SR-71 on the other hand uses its turbojets to get up to speed and altitude, but uses bypass air not going through but going around the turbojet engines for thrust at speeds above mach 2. This means that although it can fly at mach 3.5 the air going through the turbojet engines is the bare minimum to keep them idling when it is flying at top speed.

    In comparison the engines in the MiG-25 are really straining at mach 2.8 generating all the thrust.

    If it goes much faster than mach 2.8 the engine can overspeed with the enormous rotational force of the blades ripping them apart and permanently damaging them.

    Obviously the MiG-41 will need at the very least ramjets, and preferably scramjets to fly routinely at mach 4.3.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Rmf on Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:05 pm

    in those cases what you have is slowdown of incoming air and rising of pressure and temparature , which is good for combustion and flame front is stabile.
    in hypersonic scramjet you dont slow that much incoming air and pressure inside combustion chamber is less , also air is going soo fast that you must finish combustion inside it requireing lighter molecules like hydrogen which are problematic for storage , so you say why not make the tube longer but ah you have to let products expand and get out of scramjet or it will choke it.
    stable and continuos combustion is holy grail in scramjet, pulsating front-back flames are very common ,dangerous ,and can put out combustion , usually on scramjet periphery there is another tube with small area or ring where 10-20% of incoming air is slowed to subsonic speed like in ramjet so it puts stabile flame on outer edges of scramjet. scramjets are getting very complicated.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Mach 3.5 capable SR-71 on the other hand uses its turbojets to get up to speed and altitude, but uses bypass air not going through but going around the turbojet engines for thrust at speeds above mach 2. This means that although it can fly at mach 3.5 the air going through the turbojet engines is the bare minimum to keep them idling when it is flying at top speed.

    FWIW this was why the SR-71 was notorious for engine "unstarts"...   small disturbances to the air flow could result in engine flame-outs.  Apparently the pilots determined which engines stalled by which window their helmets slammed into as the aircraft slewed violently - the right window meant the left engine stalled, and vice-versa for the left.

    Did the Soviets (or Russians) ever experiment with an SR-71 style high-mach bypass engine?
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:56 am

    Well they have been experimenting with ramjets forever... in fact I have seen ramjets mounted on the I-15 Polikarpov biplane... apparently it added about 45km/h to the top speed of the aircraft.

    For the MiG-25 and MiG-31 they used standard turbofans for propulsion with the latter having a higher bypass ratio for improved performance, but I suspected the Stillborn T-4 might have needed some form of ramjet assistance as it was a Mach 3 bomber and conventional turbojets really don't work well on their own above mach 2.8 or so.


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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  Rmf on Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:42 pm

    at such slow speeds byplane flyes ,there isnt much thrust from ramjet and its usefulness is low.
    actually before ww2 very litle is mentioned- but korolev worked on liquid fueled cruise missile ,a roket powered cruise missile if you will , korolev got injured in test and arrested soon afterwards ... glushko was maker of the engine nitric acid+kerosine. project 212.
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:27 pm

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  George1 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:15 am

    Pentagon Awards $20Mln Hypersonic Missile Contract to Raytheon

    The US Defense Department’s research agency granted defense company Raytheon a $20 million contract to develop technology that will allow missile guidance systems to fly more than five times faster than the speed of sound, Raytheon said in a press release on Wednesday.

    WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — The new missiles would have to withstand intense heat while remaining highly maneuverable, and would require sensor packages to engage moving targets, the release added.

    “The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has awarded Raytheon Company a $20,489,714 million contract… to develop and demonstrate the technology to enable air-launched hypersonic boost glide systems,” the release said.

    Raytheon’s tactical boost glide system, according to the release, will fly at speeds faster than Mach 5, and at altitudes of nearly 200,000 feet.

    “Hypersonic weapons would be difficult to intercept, and would enable warfighters to strike targets at long range much more quickly than current missile technology allows,” the release said.

    To achieve the required speeds, re-entry vehicles would be designed to skip across the inside of the Earth's upper atmosphere before descending on their targets.

    In January 2015, the CEO of a Russian missile corporation predicted that Russia would produce hypersonic missiles on a mass scale within 15 years.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150430/1021539428.html#ixzz3YlordYm6
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    max steel

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:39 am

    Us catching up in both hypersonic glide vehicles and missiles . I heard they are going for HGV instead of hypersonic missiles .
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    max steel

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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:42 pm

    Project 4202 DEvelopments





    until 2011 the tests involved an "old" vehicle, referred to as Yu-70 or 102E. The December 2011 tests is by all indication the first one that was done under the Project 4202 program. The vehicle is now known as Yu-71.

    A closer look at the NPOMash web site showed that it worked on a system that is strikingly similar to a hypersonic vehicle system - the Strela launcher and its larger payload. This should give a sense of what the Yu-71 vehicle looks like. In particular, we can see that the launcher with a larger payload sticks out of the standard UR-100NUTTH silo - this is why the new system will be deployed in converted R-36M silos, which are considerably larger.



    Speaking of silo conversions, it is still not clear which one of the Dombarovskiy silos is used for Project 4202 launches. But there is only one silo - east of Yasnny - that has a restricted flight area above it , so it is quite possible that it is the one. Unfortunately, the most recent imagery on Google Earth is from 2009, which is probably before the construction there started in earnest.

    It appears that we are still quite a few years away from seeing the hypersonic vehicle in action, especially given the apparent string of failures in recent tests. The maneuvering part of the flight, which is the whole point of the program, seems to be the most difficult to master. But it is by all indications an active high-priority program, so we will probably see it at some point.


    Meanwhile china's hgv wu-14 performed extreme maneuvers in the latest 4th test . MARV's are without a doubt more viable as an anti-ABM strategy now that the U.S. has chosen the kinetic kill vehicle concept over the nuclear armed interceptor concept. A very slight trajectory shift of no more than a few feet is all that would be required to defeat a kinetic kv. That being said, the continued failures of Russia's MARV program are somewhat baffling. The basic, original MARV concept was simply the standard conical reentry vehicle with 4 simple thrusters flush mounted and arranged 90 degrees from each other. Yet, we now see images of reentry vehicles that look like hypersonic aircraft designs. This seems like an unnecessarily complicated means of making small trajectory shifts. afro
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    Re: Russia, US and other developments in Hypersonic Research

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:47 am

    Small side thrusters are fine for last minute high speed changes of flight path, but having a proper little aircraft design would allow for more manouvering and indeed greater deviations of flight to engage much more widely separated targets...


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