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    Future of the Black Sea Fleet

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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:34 am

    Well I can say that taking it by force is not an option for getting to keep it, and I doubt using strong arm tactics will work either.

    At the end of the day the Ukraine is a neighbour and whether they want to play nice or not is actually important.

    A friendly Ukraine is good for both Russia and the Ukraine.

    Obviously external powers might like to see conflict or at least friction there like the US or UK, and both sides need to be aware of that and not give in to the easy temptation of conflict.

    Sevastopol has a long history in the Russian navy and it is not something they could easily turn their backs on, but you have to be realistic... it is in a foreign country now, which is never the best place to base an entire fleet HQ.

    Russia needs to treat it like any other foreign base... use it and maintain it but don't count on it.

    The worst case scenario would be demanding a referendum, but lets face it... referendums are only held when the people in power are sure they will get their way.

    Look at the EU referendums in Ireland etc... they kept having them till the result was what they wanted and then they stopped.

    A referendum would be a way for the Crimea to declare independence, but equally it could be a way for the Ukraine to kick the Russian Navy out if they manipulate the results.

    Do you think the west... or should I say the "international' community would respond to dirty tricks in such a democratic process if the goal got the Russian Navy out of the Crimea?

    I think the solution for the foreseeable future will be to be nice to the Ukraine and maintain friendly relations.


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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:03 pm

    Diesel Sub Alrosa Returns to Black Sea after Overhaul

    Black Sea Fleet (BSF) diesel-electric submarine Alrosa commanded by Capt 2 Rank Anton Zaitsev started an interfleet cruise from Kronshtadt to homeport Sevastopol.

    In May-June 2011, the submarine along with BSF rescue ships visited Spanish port Cartagena and took part in the Bold Monarch 2011 joint submarine-salvage exercise for the first time in her record. After that, Alrosa headed for Kronshtadt and was laid up for scheduled overhaul.

    The submarine is being escorted by Baltic Fleet (BF) rescue tug SB-921. However, early in Sept the escort will be taken over by BSF rescue tug Shakhter in Spanish port Ceuta.

    Alrosa is expected to arrive in Sevastopol late Sept 2012.

    Diesel-electric submarine Alrosa was laid down on May 7, 1988 at the Krasnoye Sormovo shipyard. The sub was built under experimental project 877V.

    In Nov 1989, the submarine moved to the Black Sea via inland waterways; Soviet naval ensign was hoisted on the sub then. In Jan 2004, she obtained the name of Alrosa by Russian Navy Commander's decree. Since 1997, the sub's crew five times won the Navy Commander's Prize in torpedo firing.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15712
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    runaway

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    Upgrade of BSF

    Post  runaway on Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:58 am

    What is all this nonsense with talks with Ukraine of upgrading the BSF? The talks have been ongoing for 10 years, and is much about cheaper gas and oil. Ridiculus.
    For all i know, you can move 3 new frigates, 2 new corvettes and 5 subs to reinforce BSF tomorrow, by basing them in Novorossyisk. Why not?
    Why this fuss about Sevastopol, there you can switch ship for ship.

    There is of course other options, as declaring the whole Crimea as Russian territory..
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    medo

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:24 pm

    I agree, that all new Russian navy ships should base in Novorossijsk or any other port in Russian territory and leave Sevastopol with decommissioning of old ships.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:29 pm

    medo wrote:I agree, that all new Russian navy ships should base in Novorossijsk or any other port in Russian territory and leave Sevastopol with decommissioning of old ships.

    Is port in Novorossijsk finished?
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    TR1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:07 pm

    Sevastopol is a much better port ; just look @ how "Dagestan" was damaged @ Novorosiisk.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:20 pm

    No reason to abandon Sevastopol, or try to break it off from the Ukraine. We are quite welcome there and always have been; even when a retard was in power in the Ukraine from 2004-2008; locals simply responded by besieging the poor American sailors who made the mistake of going on leave from their ship that docked at the port Very Happy

    Firebird

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Firebird on Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:28 pm

    Couple of thoughts I have on the BSF

    1)This is the area Russia is most likely to have a conflict.

    2)It has the base nearest to the Middle East, that is not in the Mid East.

    3)Its possibly the area nearest to any US shipborne abm deployment.

    Obviously it doesn't need huge size.But cant be forgotten about either.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:11 am

    Sev is the traditional home of the BSF, and it should be maintained and upgraded as much as necessary to keep it useful in that capacity.

    I do however think that Nov should also get some investment and that perhaps that could become the location for more sensitive things, like command centres etc etc.

    If the port facilities in Nov are not up to standard then they need to be upgraded too.


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    medo

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:50 pm

    Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.
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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:10 pm

    medo wrote:Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.

    Τhese news are rubbish, no island will ever be sold
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    TR1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:28 pm

    medo wrote:Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.

    Too far away from land based air cover. Sevestopol is a perfect base, though dealing with Ukraine is a pain.
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    medo

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:32 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    medo wrote:Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.

    Too far away from land based air cover. Sevestopol is a perfect base, though dealing with Ukraine is a pain.

    Not to replace Sevastopol, but to replace Tartus in Syria.
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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:24 pm

    Novorossiysk Naval Base Construction: First Phase to Finish Late in 2013

    Construction of first-order objects of Novorossiysk Naval Base will finish by the end of 2013, reports Izvestiya referring to Russian defense ministry.

    According to the newspaper, "those objects are meant for large-size warships having deep draft. That will make possible to start redeployment of Black Sea Fleet from Crimea to Novorossiysk. The fleet's flagship, Guards missile cruiser Moskva will arrive in the new base first".

    According to the source in Russian Navy Main HQ, "now they're dipping seabed to accommodate larger ships, lengthening quayside, constructing windbreak and a breakwater. To operate normally, the base needs underground storages for armaments, materials and fuel, covered underground communication centers and command posts".

    The source stressed that "we're tight down by the Black Sea Fleet Treaty signed in 1992. Its annex specifies hull numbers and types of ships allowed to be stationed in Sevastopol, Ukraine. It is problematic to transfer a new ship there. Ukrainian party hinders new amendments to the treaty. The agreement also prohibits rearming and upgrading of ships currently stationed in Sevastopol".

    At the same time, "some Black Sea Fleet officers say Sevastopol should remain the fleet's main naval base", reports Izvestiya.

    In particular, ex-commander of Black Sea Fleet considers that shape and geographic position of Novorossiysk would unlikely allow it to become the fleet's main naval base", writes Izvestiya.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16492
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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:18 pm

    Black Sea Fleet to Form Crews for New Ships in 2013

    In the new training year, Black Sea Fleet (BSF) will prepare for acceptance of two new warships and two submarines being built by Yantar (Kaliningrad) and Admiralteyskie Verfi (St. Petersburg) shipyards respectively.

    Crews for new ships will be formed on a competitive basis amid graduates of higher naval educational institutions and most qualified BSF servicemen.

    The newly formed crews will traditionally begin studying theoretical issues prior to commissioning of the ships. They will participate in sea trials together with shipyard experts and learn how to operate new equipment.

    Forming and preparing crews for new ships is one of the fleet's priority tasks in the new training year.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16508
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    runaway

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:30 pm

    George1 wrote:Black Sea Fleet to Form Crews for New Ships in 2013

    In the new training year, Black Sea Fleet (BSF) will prepare for acceptance of two new warships and two submarines being built by Yantar (Kaliningrad) and Admiralteyskie Verfi (St. Petersburg) shipyards respectively.

    Guess that will be two 636.3,Novorossiysk and Rostov-on-Don, and two frigates ,Project 11356 Admiral Grigorovich and Admiral Essen. Most certainly based in byNovorossiysk the end of the year 2013.
    For the Admiral Gorshkov class frigate will only enter Northern and Pacific fleets.

    Hm, in that case they have speed up production, as one of each was scheduled for 2014.

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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:47 pm

    Project 11356 are for black sea fleet exclusively i think
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    TR1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Mon May 20, 2013 2:38 am

    http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/643679.html

    Recent interview with Admiral Chirkov about Black Sea Fleet; always have to be careful reading these, but it confirms some info that was floating around.

    Specifically- the BSF is undergoing a HUGE leap in surface and underwater combatant strength- via the 6 1135.6 frigates and 6 636 submarines (plus existing Alrosa, recently repaired).
    He makes no mention of rumors that a 20380 and a 22350 would enter the fleet- I am hopeful that it means the ships will not find their way to the BSF.
    The Grigorovich ships are more than enough, not to even talk about the huge increase in underwater strength - 7-fold increase!
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon May 20, 2013 10:39 am

    Even after the induction of the six project 11356 (Grigorovich) frigates, I would like to see the old veterans like the Smetlivy, Ladny and Pitlyvy stay in service as long as possible. They are doing a good job in the Mediteranean.

    Notio

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Notio on Tue May 21, 2013 3:07 am

    TR1 wrote:http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/643679.html

    Recent interview with Admiral Chirkov about Black Sea Fleet; always have to be careful reading these, but it confirms some info that was floating around.

    Specifically- the BSF is undergoing a HUGE leap in surface and underwater combatant strength- via the 6 1135.6 frigates and 6 636 submarines (plus existing Alrosa, recently repaired).
    He makes no mention of rumors that a 20380 and a 22350 would enter the fleet- I am hopeful that it means the ships will not find their way to the BSF.
    The Grigorovich ships are more than enough, not to even talk about the huge increase in underwater strength - 7-fold increase!

    Let's be real, if a conflict happens requiring participation by the VMF, the closest fleet will be either Black Sea Fleet or the Caspian flotilla. Of course it is possible to send reinforcements from the other fleets, if there is an adequete warning, but it makes more sense to just strengthen the fleet that is most relevant. The Northern and the Baltic fleets enjoy strong positions thanks to history and the needs of nuclear deterrence, but one must be able to adapt. The Boreis allow a less rigid version of the bastion strategy and thus more resources can be directed elsewhere. It makes sense to really boost the BSF as it is also the most natural source of power for the Mediterranean Squadron or the 5th Operational Squadron, whatever will it be called.

    The role and the strength of the BSF will increase at the expense of the Northern and Baltic fleets, to me that is very natural and the right way to go. There isn't much to do at the Baltic sea, it is mostly pride and symbolism that forces to invest there anything more than a flotillas worth. The Northern fleet carries less burden as there is no longer a threat of big war in Europe and the relevant confrontation with the US navy. And as I already stated the new generation of SSBN is lessening the need for protective asseets. So in the Western side of Russia the Black Sea Fleet is gaining on importance, in a big way. In the Eastern side there is only one fleet and it is facing the rising China and many other significant powers in a region that holds a number of potential hot spots, so it makes sense to boost the Pasific fleet as well. Indeed, it seems to be happening.

    The Project 11356 frigates are pretty decent ships, but it is also clear that the Project 22350 is way superior. The Poliment-Redut, new sensors and new air defence missiles allow the Admiral Gorshkov-class to protect both itself and a group of ships in a much more convincing style, it also carries twice the offensive firepower and exhibits finer RCS reduction measures. At least one or two Project 22350 frigates, by 2020, for the BSF would also enhance the survivability and effectiveness of the six Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates, so I absolutely hope that the BSF gets them. The current sorry shape of the BSF is no argument against the Project 22350 frigates, as the 6 new frigates and 6 new Kilos alone won't make the fleet exactly a world-beater. One has to remember that there are at the moment only 2 combat ships(Moskva and Alrosa), that have any business being in service beyond 2015. The Project 11356 and the improved improved Kilos exists pretty much just as a last-ditch effort to save the BSF from an imminent disappearance.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2013 11:23 am

    I agree on many points but think the Russians plan a rather large expansion of their arctic resources, which means the Northern Fleet will need to remain a focus. I think they will be able to set up small coastal settlements using new floating nuclear reactor ships to provide electricity and fresh water and of course heat to a small isolate community...


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    TheRealist

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TheRealist on Tue May 21, 2013 2:32 pm

    My friends, I hope you can clarify this but it would seem that the Ukrainian government is playing hard ball with the modernization of the Black Sea Fleet and given that the Ukrainian leadership has moved to orient themselves towards the EU which can possibly pose a threat to Russian interest in the Crimean and possible NATO and EU expansion. I am very worried about these development.

    Another thing is that Russia is focus now in the Novorossiysk naval base, which seems to me is a possible alternate basing site for BSF assets, even if Admiral Chirkov said that Sevastopol will still be the main HQ for the BSF.
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    TR1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:48 pm

    http://flot.com/news/navy/?ELEMENT_ID=163570

    Decision made to base new 636.6 submarines in Sevastopol.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:02 am

    TR1 wrote:http://flot.com/news/navy/?ELEMENT_ID=163570

    Decision made to base new 636.6 submarines in Sevastopol.

    Smart move, while it will take money to modernize Crimea to standard the investment will pay for itself in the Black Sea Oil & LNG fields, submarines are needed to defend Russia's economic interests.
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    zg18

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    Decision made to base new 636.6 submarines in Sevastopol.

    Post  zg18 on Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:10 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://flot.com/news/navy/?ELEMENT_ID=163570

    Decision made to base new 636.6 submarines in Sevastopol.

    Balaclava sub base reopening?  Very Happy 

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