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    Future of the Black Sea Fleet

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    GarryB
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:01 am

    It is a difficult situation, but force will not solve the problem.

    In many cases people ignore that relationships are two way things... Russian Black Sea Fleet vessels might think of Sev as their home, but I would rather expect that a lot of the Crimea thinks of itself as the home of the Black Sea Fleet too. I rather suspect many of the locals have good relations with Russia and Russians... as shown by the protests when a NATO vessel visits the port.

    Perhaps a referendum is in order?

    On the one hand you have all the infrastructure and investment in what is basically a foreign country, and of course all the people.

    The lease has been extended into 2040, but what happens them?

    The Navy is going through a huge rebuilding phase right now, perhaps some hard decisions need to be made... foreign bases are going to become important to Russia including Tartus and Cuba and Venezuela and Vietnam, which in the change of a government could all be lost, which would be a problem but not a reason not to have them.

    Perhaps the solution is to move the HQ for the BSF to Novorossijsk, but keep the fleet at Sevastopol.

    That would shift thousands of people out of Sev and into Nov, which will shift a lot of spending from the Crimea back to the Russian economy and will enable better information security. It should also add investment to Novorossijsk which should be good for them, and for the Crimea it will likely free up some old buildings.

    George1
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:09 pm

    Moscow Hopes to Agree Fleet Upgrade with Ukraine by Yearend

    Russia expects to reach an agreement with Ukraine on the modernization of its Black Sea Fleet before the end of the year, fleet commander Rear Adm. Alexander Fedotenkov said on Monday.

    The agreement should enable Russia to bring in new warships to the naval base it rents in the Crimean port of Sevastopol, Fedotenkov said.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry said earlier that Ukraine had objected to the replacement of the fleet’s obsolete warships with new ones.

    Under the 1997 treaty, giving Russia use of the port of Sevastopol, Russia may not increase the number of warships in Crimea or modernize their weapon systems.

    In accordance with a 2010 agreement, Russia’s Black Fleet is to stay in Crimea through 2042.

    Russia will also negotiate with Ukraine on the use of the Nitka naval pilot training facility.

    The facility was built in Soviet days for pilots to practice their skills in taking off from and landing on an aircraft carrier's deck.

    After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, the facility remained under Ukrainian jurisdiction. The Ukrainian Navy does not have an aircraft carrier, while Russia has only one - the Admiral Kuznetsov - and plans to build at least three nuclear powered aircraft carriers in the future.

    The center provides naval aviation training facilities such as a launch pad, an aerofinisher, a trampoline, a catapult launching device, a glide-path localizer, a marker beacon, and an optical landing system.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120730/174859331.html

    George1
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:21 pm

    Russia Lays Down Diesel Sub Stary Oskol for Black Sea Fleet on Aug 17

    The solemn keel-laying ceremony of diesel electric submarine for Black Sea Fleet (BSF) will take place at 12-th workshop of JSC Admiralteyskie Verfi shipyard on Aug 17, 2012.

    Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Viktor Chirkov, president of United Shipbuilding Corporation Andrei Diachkov, director general of JSC Admiralteyskie Verfi Alexander Buzakov, representatives of St. Petersburg city administration, Leningrad Naval Base high-ranking officials, and other honored guests were invited to attend the ceremony.

    Project 06363 diesel electric submarine Stary Oskol (serial number 01672) is the third sub in series being built by Admiralteyskie Verfi for Russian Navy. Just like the lead sub and the first serial one, SSK Stary Oskol is meant to reinforce BSF submarine fleet. According to Russian Navy's plans, Admiralteyskie Verfi will build six subs of that kind for Black Sea Fleet.

    Lead submarine of the project, B-261 Novorossiysk was laid down in Aug 2010 (serial number 01670); keel laying of the second hull, B-237 Rostov-na-Donu (serial number 01671) was held in Nov 2011. Alexander Buzakov, the then acting director general of Admiralteyskie Verfi said in the spring of 2012 that the lead sub would be launched late in 2013.

    Submarines of upgraded Project 06363 developed by Rubin Central Design Bureau are more effective comparing to the basic project. Main difference lies in considerably higher attack capability thanks to newest missile system Caliber-PL engaging not only sea targets but land inshore ones too. Optimal combination of acoustic concealment and target detection range, advanced inertial navigation system, up-to-date automated tactical data system, powerful rapid torpedo and missile arms make subs of this project the world's leaders in non-nuclear submarine building industry.

    In NATO, these submarines are classified as Improved Kilo.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15652

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:38 pm

    No thanks - we don't need any territory from the Ukraine thank you! Not Sevastopol, not anywhere else. It's their country - so let them sort it out. Or let God sort them all out. Or something. The Ukraine was created not by the West but by Soviet leaders in the 20s, and then was further extended by Kruschshev. It was a USSR republic for some 70 years before it became independent.

    Besides which - the Russian population and places like the Crimea help keep the pro-Russian side of the Ukraine strong. If those areas all leave than we'll just be left with a bunch of haters who are going to do their utmost to spite Russia, fill their country with American soldiers, etc...

    Anyway - don't know don't care. Main thing is that the Russian Black Sea fleet maintains its base there.

    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:13 am

    My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels

    flamming_python
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:06 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels

    How about some hypersonic plasma-stealth bombers while you're at it Very Happy

    GarryB
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:11 am

    Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit Flamy...

    I do agree that Russia needs to cooperate with its neighbours, and despite its history in the Crimea they also need to think about alternatives because pumping too much money into what is foreign territory is not a great thing.

    Perhaps in 2040 Russia could buy the Crimea from the Ukraine?

    Or the other acceptable alternative is to have a referendum in the Crimea.

    Look at the results of Georgia trying to take South Ossetia by force... there was no way that was ever going to work.


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    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:30 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels

    How about some hypersonic plasma-stealth bombers while you're at it Very Happy

    Is russia so low on money that the black sea fleet cant expand to that much ships in 10-15 years?
    What a huge expansion program Rolling Eyes

    GarryB
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:39 pm

    The agreement on basing rights with the Ukraine means any expansion of capability or size needs to be negotiated with them first.

    There are other fleets that need attention too.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    TR1
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:18 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels

    How about some hypersonic plasma-stealth bombers while you're at it Very Happy

    Is russia so low on money that the black sea fleet cant expand to that much ships in 10-15 years?
    What a huge expansion program Rolling Eyes

    12 Steregyshy for 1 fleet alone?
    5 Gorshkov?
    3 Destroyers?!?!

    There won't be much more for the entire navy by 2020, forget about Black Sea Fleet.
    Not to mention, what is the point?

    The BSF, btw, is not lacking for ships.
    If anything, by already concrete plans, the BSF is seeing a massive increase in submarine strength, and more than 1 to 1 replacement in terms of large surface combatants (if we talk about current fleet, not old Soviet fleet which was ofc bigger.)

    Since fall of USSR, aside from old boats which are not operational anyways, the BSF has only had the Alrosa. Now they are laying down 3 project 636 boats for the BSF alone! And supposedly there maybe another trio behind it! So the submarine strength is increased by either 4 or 7 times.

    Then we have surface ships. Currently it is composed of the Moskva, the Kerch, Smetlivy and the two frigates - Pitlivy and Ladny. All aside from Moskva will be gone by around 2015 I suspect.
    For replacement, by today's plans, we have:
    A trio of 11356M frigates (Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen, Admiral Makarov)
    At least 1 22350 frigate (Admiral Kasatonov. More units possible.
    At least 1 20385 corvette. Very likely to be more units.
    There has also been talk of transferring the Neustrashimy and Yaroslav Mudry from the Baltic, though I hope it does not happen, and the plans may have been scrapped.
    There are also 21631 missile ships planned.
    And don't forget the nearby Capsian Flotilla is well stocked in new vessels (11661 frigates and 21630 gunboats).

    If anything the BSF has the most certain future of any fleet.

    flamming_python
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:07 am

    There is absolutely no need for anything larger than frigates in the Black Sea fleet. No Slavas, no destroyers; they would both be heavily limited by being confined to such small lakes as the Black Sea or even Meditteranean.

    flamming_python
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:12 am

    GarryB wrote:Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit Flamy...

    I do agree that Russia needs to cooperate with its neighbours, and despite its history in the Crimea they also need to think about alternatives because pumping too much money into what is foreign territory is not a great thing.

    Ukraine is welcome to join the economic union that Russia is proposing. Then, pumping money into Sevastopol won't seem like money wasted; because what would be good for Ukrainian infastructure and economy would be good for the Russian one too

    Perhaps in 2040 Russia could buy the Crimea from the Ukraine?

    Perhaps buying Sevastopol and using it as a sort of Russian Gibraltar would make some sense. But the Ukrainians I doubt would ever agree to that.

    GarryB
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:34 am

    Well I can say that taking it by force is not an option for getting to keep it, and I doubt using strong arm tactics will work either.

    At the end of the day the Ukraine is a neighbour and whether they want to play nice or not is actually important.

    A friendly Ukraine is good for both Russia and the Ukraine.

    Obviously external powers might like to see conflict or at least friction there like the US or UK, and both sides need to be aware of that and not give in to the easy temptation of conflict.

    Sevastopol has a long history in the Russian navy and it is not something they could easily turn their backs on, but you have to be realistic... it is in a foreign country now, which is never the best place to base an entire fleet HQ.

    Russia needs to treat it like any other foreign base... use it and maintain it but don't count on it.

    The worst case scenario would be demanding a referendum, but lets face it... referendums are only held when the people in power are sure they will get their way.

    Look at the EU referendums in Ireland etc... they kept having them till the result was what they wanted and then they stopped.

    A referendum would be a way for the Crimea to declare independence, but equally it could be a way for the Ukraine to kick the Russian Navy out if they manipulate the results.

    Do you think the west... or should I say the "international' community would respond to dirty tricks in such a democratic process if the goal got the Russian Navy out of the Crimea?

    I think the solution for the foreseeable future will be to be nice to the Ukraine and maintain friendly relations.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:03 pm

    Diesel Sub Alrosa Returns to Black Sea after Overhaul

    Black Sea Fleet (BSF) diesel-electric submarine Alrosa commanded by Capt 2 Rank Anton Zaitsev started an interfleet cruise from Kronshtadt to homeport Sevastopol.

    In May-June 2011, the submarine along with BSF rescue ships visited Spanish port Cartagena and took part in the Bold Monarch 2011 joint submarine-salvage exercise for the first time in her record. After that, Alrosa headed for Kronshtadt and was laid up for scheduled overhaul.

    The submarine is being escorted by Baltic Fleet (BF) rescue tug SB-921. However, early in Sept the escort will be taken over by BSF rescue tug Shakhter in Spanish port Ceuta.

    Alrosa is expected to arrive in Sevastopol late Sept 2012.

    Diesel-electric submarine Alrosa was laid down on May 7, 1988 at the Krasnoye Sormovo shipyard. The sub was built under experimental project 877V.

    In Nov 1989, the submarine moved to the Black Sea via inland waterways; Soviet naval ensign was hoisted on the sub then. In Jan 2004, she obtained the name of Alrosa by Russian Navy Commander's decree. Since 1997, the sub's crew five times won the Navy Commander's Prize in torpedo firing.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15712

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    Upgrade of BSF

    Post  runaway on Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:58 am

    What is all this nonsense with talks with Ukraine of upgrading the BSF? The talks have been ongoing for 10 years, and is much about cheaper gas and oil. Ridiculus.
    For all i know, you can move 3 new frigates, 2 new corvettes and 5 subs to reinforce BSF tomorrow, by basing them in Novorossyisk. Why not?
    Why this fuss about Sevastopol, there you can switch ship for ship.

    There is of course other options, as declaring the whole Crimea as Russian territory..

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:24 pm

    I agree, that all new Russian navy ships should base in Novorossijsk or any other port in Russian territory and leave Sevastopol with decommissioning of old ships.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:29 pm

    medo wrote:I agree, that all new Russian navy ships should base in Novorossijsk or any other port in Russian territory and leave Sevastopol with decommissioning of old ships.

    Is port in Novorossijsk finished?

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:07 pm

    Sevastopol is a much better port ; just look @ how "Dagestan" was damaged @ Novorosiisk.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:20 pm

    No reason to abandon Sevastopol, or try to break it off from the Ukraine. We are quite welcome there and always have been; even when a retard was in power in the Ukraine from 2004-2008; locals simply responded by besieging the poor American sailors who made the mistake of going on leave from their ship that docked at the port Very Happy

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Firebird on Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:28 pm

    Couple of thoughts I have on the BSF

    1)This is the area Russia is most likely to have a conflict.

    2)It has the base nearest to the Middle East, that is not in the Mid East.

    3)Its possibly the area nearest to any US shipborne abm deployment.

    Obviously it doesn't need huge size.But cant be forgotten about either.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:11 am

    Sev is the traditional home of the BSF, and it should be maintained and upgraded as much as necessary to keep it useful in that capacity.

    I do however think that Nov should also get some investment and that perhaps that could become the location for more sensitive things, like command centres etc etc.

    If the port facilities in Nov are not up to standard then they need to be upgraded too.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:50 pm

    Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:10 pm

    medo wrote:Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.

    Τhese news are rubbish, no island will ever be sold

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:28 pm

    medo wrote:Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.

    Too far away from land based air cover. Sevestopol is a perfect base, though dealing with Ukraine is a pain.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:32 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    medo wrote:Greece will soon give to lease some of their islands in Aegean sea. Maybe Russia could lease one for 100 years and build naval port there.

    Too far away from land based air cover. Sevestopol is a perfect base, though dealing with Ukraine is a pain.

    Not to replace Sevastopol, but to replace Tartus in Syria.

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