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    Future of the Black Sea Fleet

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    Russian Patriot
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:58 am

    Russian shipyard starts construction of new submarine

    Russia’s Admiralteiskie Verfi shipyard on Monday launched the construction of a Project 636.3 Kilo-class submarine.

    The Rostov-on-Don diesel electric submarine will be the first in a five-sub series the shipyard is to build for the Russian Navy, Verfi’s acting chief Alexander Buzakov said.

    He offered no indication as to when the submarine would be completed.

    The submarine is expected to enter service with the Black Sea Fleet.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20111121/168897876.html

    GarryB
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:51 am

    It is good that they have ordered 5 upgraded Kilos rather than one or two subs. They should be able to keep costs under control and order larger amounts of material and operate more efficiently.

    It is likely that the remaining 5 or so conventional subs to be built by 2020 will be the Lada class, also known as the Amur class which is currently having a few teething troubles.

    The Russians seem to have decided that hydrogen fuel cell technology is too dangerous in a submarine environment and they are currently investing in lithium ion technology to improve underwater performance.

    Personally I think the small compact nuclear power plants they use in space craft would be a much better idea as they are very similar in operation to a battery that is fully charged and will never completely discharge for the life of the vessel.

    It might not power the sub at high speed underwater like a full sized NPP (nuclear power plant) would, but it would enable the sub to sit silently underwater for weeks at a time just operating the carbon dioxide scrubbers (to keep the crew alive) and charging the main batteries to allow the vessel to operate more often as a quiet electric drive sub than as a noisy diesel.

    For emergencies a Kilo or Amur sized vessel could easily carry 4 or more of these power plants which can operate for 10-15 years and then be replaced like batteries. Note they don't have generators or water flow so they don't make noise.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  runaway on Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:27 am

    GarryB wrote:Lada class, also known as the Amur class which is currently having a few teething troubles.

    The Russians seem to have decided that hydrogen fuel cell technology is too dangerous in a submarine environment and they are currently investing in lithium ion technology to improve underwater performance.

    Personally I think the small compact nuclear power plants they use in space craft would be a much better idea as they are very similar in operation to a battery that is fully charged and will never completely discharge for the life of the vessel.

    Yes, it seems the construction has been at a standstill, as the development is slow. Badly, cause the other major sub manufactorers like Germany and Sweden is selling AIP subs, and has been doing for the past 10 years.

    I hope they construct the 636.3 so that they can implement a section of the new AIP later as it becomes availble!


    GarryB
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:33 pm

    The situation is a bit like with the new Frigates... to keep up numbers and get numbers into service they are producing the Gorshkov Frigates, but also the Talwar Frigates produced for India but with Russian sensors, systems, propulsion and weapons.
    This will ensure compatibility and ease logistics and maintainence while getting hulls into the water.

    The Lada vessels have been delayed because of problems with propulsion and the sonar... which sounds bad, but you know me... I am a silver lining type of guy... they are having problems because they are new and ambitious and when they get them working they will likely be very good. Until they get them working (they are not planning mass production of the Lada till 2014 AFAIK) the upgraded Kilo is still a very good sub, though no longer state of the art, it can still perform most jobs required.

    Once they have the bugs sorted out on the Lada class they will have an even more capable vessel they can produce in large numbers.

    They are working on a new multi core CPU for military purposes, so by 2014 they should have that available for service perhaps...

    runaway
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  runaway on Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Lada vessels have been delayed because of problems with propulsion and the sonar... which sounds bad, but you know me... I am a silver lining type of guy... they are having problems because they are new and ambitious and when they get them working they will likely be very good. Until they get them working (they are not planning mass production of the Lada till 2014 AFAIK) .

    Guess the trials were disastrous for the mono hull sub:

    "24.11.2011

    Construction program of Project 677 Lada non-nuclear submarines can be suspended, reports Izvestiya referring to a source in Russian Navy Main HQ.

    According to the source, SSK St. Petersburg will not be commissioned into the Navy and remain an experimental prototype.

    Defects of Lada-class submarine – unfinished propulsion plant, sonar, Lithium tactical data system, torpedo TE-2 – make Russian Navy return to submarines of well-proved project Varshavyanka, reports the newspaper.

    According to the source, construction of two Lada-class submarines – Kronshtadt and Sevastopol – was suspended as well in spite of their hulls almost completed."

    Sounds like a real disaster! If they cant design a new type of SSK, but have to return to a 30 year old Soviet design, Kilo, the industri is in shambles.
    And moreover, it will be quite some time before a new design is ready for construction.

    Meanwhile, all competitors are launching new AIP types all over.
    I hate to say it, but russia seems to be some 30 years after in sub propulsion technology!
    This will have serious negative impacts on combat value, as opponents will likely have AIP and can stay submerged for weeks, while the Kilo must snorkel in a matter of a few days.

    Very very bad. Everything should be done in emergency to recover the situation as fast as can be done! For example, copy the Swedish or German AIP and add them as a section to the 636.3!


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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:24 pm

    Sounds like a sky is falling article to me.

    Rubin have said that based on testing they will have an upgraded Project 677M ready for mass production in 2014-2015 and that in the years of testing they have sorted out most of the problems.

    The Sonar is supposed to be the best fitted to a conventional sub anywhere in the world, while the propulsion is of a new design that is not a hydrogen fuel cell, so while it will take a lot of work to get going has the enormous benefit of no mechanical noise (vital for such a sub) but also no need for storing hydrogen on board the sub and therefore also not requiring hydrogen handling facilities at every Russian navy base... which would be an enormous fire hazard.
    They are also spending money updating the batteries using lithium ion technology with further development work to make them even more efficient and safe on board a submarine.

    The fact that the article says things like "Lithium tactical data system" is amusing.

    They developed a new class of submarine and during operational testing they found some problems which they no doubt have examined and solved and the solutions are being incorporated into an upgraded design... they will likely keep the vessel in service for testing new systems as a test bed vessel, and the two vessels that have started construction will likely be reworked into Project 677Ms once the new systems are ready.

    The resulting vessels will be smaller than Kilos, with smaller crews, but with better sensors, better weapons, better electronics, and longer range and patrol times... what is not to like?

    Also the upgraded kilos they are also getting will not be 30 year old vessels, they will have new electronics and sensors and weapons... not as good as the 677M, but as good as anything in service now anywhere.

    For export they have a deal with an Italian company, I believe to provide modern AIP for their subs.

    They have reportedly invested a lot of money into a system that works like a hydrogen fuel cell, but uses diesel instead of hydrogen... diesel is much safer and is obviously already stored in large amounts in a diesel electric sub. Also there is already infrastructure in all naval ports to provide diesel to ships, so no extra spending is required there either.

    No time to panic now. The production of the upgraded kilos was to reduce the urgency on the Ladas and that is exactly what it is doing.

    Or do you believe purchases of Mi-35s and Su-30MKs by the Russian Air Force prove the Mi-28N and the PAK FA are both failures too and that the Russian Air Force is being forced to rely on 40 year old soviet technology because they can't design new fixed and rotary winged aircraft?

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  runaway on Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:27 am

    GarryB wrote:Sounds like a sky is falling article to me.

    Rubin have said that based on testing they will have an upgraded Project 677M ready for mass production in 2014-2015 and that in the years of The resulting vessels will be smaller than Kilos, with smaller crews, but with better sensors, better weapons, better electronics, and longer range and patrol times... what is not to like??

    Also the upgraded kilos they are also getting will not be 30 year old vessels, they will have new electronics and sensors and weapons... not as good as the 677M, but as good as anything in service now anywhere


    For export they have a deal with an Italian company, I believe to provide modern AIP for their subs.

    They have reportedly invested a lot of money into a system that works like a hydrogen fuel cell, but uses diesel instead of hydrogen... diesel is much safer and is obviously already stored in large amounts in a diesel electric sub. Also there is already infrastructure in all naval ports to provide diesel to ships, so no extra spending is required there either.

    No time to panic now. The production of the upgraded kilos was to reduce the urgency on the Ladas and that is exactly what it is doing.

    Or do you believe purchases of Mi-35s and Su-30MKs by the Russian Air Force prove the Mi-28N and the PAK FA are both failures too and that the Russian Air Force is being forced to rely on 40 year old soviet technology because they can't design new fixed and rotary winged aircraft?
    I fear you`re sticking your head in the sand. Whats not to like is that the first sub which was laid down 1997, launched in 2006, will not be accepted into the Navy. I`m worried it has somthing to do with the mono hull design, rather then propulsion. Or can you explain why the St petersburg isnt comissioned into the navy? (assuming we`re not the victims of Maskirovka)

    Yes the Kilo 636.3 is an excellent sub, but as it dont have AIP, its at an disadvantage.

    Great, they can export Kilos with Italian AIP, but doesnt have for themselves.

    And no, the PAK FA is no failure, yet. I would however be concerned if they lay the building of new PAK FA planes, prototypes on ice.
    As i would also had been concerned if the Bulava wasnt to be introduced in the strategic defence. But Bulava seems to be coming along now when the bugs are sorted out.

    But Lada class. Seems to be a failure, and they have decided to cut losses and pull the plug on the project.
    Hope i am wrong but if i am right, there IS cause to engage heavily to begin construction of a new project with workable AIP ASAP.



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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:15 pm

    Relax. At one point the Bulava seemed in worst shape than the Lada. The future will tell.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  runaway on Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:28 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Relax.

    Yes, thats really what the Admiralty Shipyard is doing, the two other subs of this class, Kronstadt and Sebastopol, was laid down in 2005 and 2006 respectively. And still they are not near completion, but work progress are at a complete standstill.

    If that is not spelled real TROUBLE, i dont know.

    Sad really, but the 636.3 with a AIP section added later should be amongst the worlds best, if not the best.

    Just let me hear that an AIP section is in real development.




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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:20 am

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20111124/496875886.html

    Submarine Project 677 upgrade after 2013 - CDB "Ruby"

    24/11/2011 15:34

    MOSCOW, November 24 - RIA Novosti. Diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 "Lada" will modernize the technical refinement of the project will be completed in 2013, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, general manager of the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin" (project developer), Andrew deacons.

    He was commenting on reports by some media that the test boats of this project have been frozen.

    "Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.

    As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013.

    A series of Russian diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 is designed chief designer Yuri Kormilitsin. Feature of the series is a combination of small size and low noise level with a powerful torpedoes and torpedo-missile weapons.

    The boats are designed to destroy submarines, surface ships and vessels of the enemy, protect naval bases, sea coast and sea lanes, conduct reconnaissance. Series is a development project 877 "halibut." Displacement of the ship is 1765 tons, the maximum depth - 350 meters, speed - 21 knots, the crew - 36 people, autonomy - 45 days, armed with torpedoes and missiles, torpedoes, and air defense systems "Igla-1M."

    Whats not to like is that the first sub which was laid down 1997, launched in 2006, will not be accepted into the Navy.

    Keep in mind that funding through the 1990s and up until about 2005 was pathetic... the fact that it was even built shows while everything else was completely neglected, that it got funding... sort of tells you it had priority status... something it hasn't lost.

    Or can you explain why the St petersburg isnt comissioned into the navy? (assuming we`re not the victims of Maskirovka)

    For the same reason the first Flanker wasn't commissioned into the Russian Air Force. Fundamental flaws and problems that needed new solutions. To late to apply to this vessel, but they need a test bed vessel to test new stuff on anyway, so it gets that role instead. It is really not as big a deal as you are making out.

    When designing stuff you invest a lot of time and money and effort. They clearly pushed a few boundaries with this sub and as a result the Project 677M will be a very powerful vessel, but it is clearly cheaper and easier to use the first sub as a test bed and apply the new ideas they learnt from it to two incomplete vessels that were in the process of being built.

    If things were desperate then upgrading the original vessel might be an option, but clearly the production of 5 upgraded Kilos class vessels means there is no desperate situation... the new upgraded Kilos have filled that gap and they can spend a little more time getting the Ladas right.

    They can also continue further work and testing on the first vessel to further refine the design.

    Sounds perfectly sensible to me.

    Yes the Kilo 636.3 is an excellent sub, but as it dont have AIP, its at an disadvantage.

    AIP just allows a sub to remain submerged for longer periods. It is a good feature to have, but modern lithium Ion batteries on their own would increase their underwater performance by 40% alone... the Kilos without AIPs are described as being able to remain submerged for 10 days, which is pretty close to the two weeks or so that uber western vessels with AIPs can manage.

    The Russian navy has a few Akulas and Sierras and other vessels that can also stay underwater for long periods on very long trips... the conventional Russians subs will be largely coastal for the next few years anyway.

    Great, they can export Kilos with Italian AIP, but doesnt have for themselves.

    For years they exported Su-30MKIs and had Su-27s for their own forces. The gap is rather less in this case.

    And no, the PAK FA is no failure, yet. I would however be concerned if they lay the building of new PAK FA planes, prototypes on ice.

    Don't understand what you mean here. In any design project at some stage you have to freeze the design for production otherwise you will end up with each product being slightly different from the one before... which is not good for logistics.

    To put it in PAK FA terms once all the PAK FA prototypes have been produced and they integrate all the bits and pieces they will then upgrade all the PAK FA prototypes to working condition and they will likely be sent to Lipsek for operational conversion training and to create operations manuals and tactics, and of course create a maintainence schedule and manuals.

    For a ship it is obviously a bit different because of the scale and cost... normally operational problems with systems don't really show themselves till the ship is in the water and people are trying to use it for the things they use it for.

    When problems come up with propulsion (including AIP) and the Sonar, that require major redesign and reworking, then sometimes it is easier to start from an earlier position in the construction process to make those changes. For two vessels in the process of being built that is the case. For the vessel that has completed testing that is not the case.
    They need vessels for testing, so the vessel can be used for that... they save money on having to make a fundamental conversion, and also money on making a testbed sub.

    Obviously if things were urgent then converting the sub to make it operational makes sense. Things are not urgent because there are five new upgraded Kilos being made.

    But Lada class. Seems to be a failure, and they have decided to cut losses and pull the plug on the project.

    Not according to the article above.

    There wouldn't be any problems if they weren't pushing hard at the boundaries... I would be worried if there weren't problems.

    Hope i am wrong but if i am right, there IS cause to engage heavily to begin construction of a new project with workable AIP ASAP.

    The AIP they are working on is a drop in system... like a short section with VLS tubes for land attack missiles. You don't need to develop a new type of sub... the work on the AIP and the new generation sub are quite separate and actually not really related.

    Once their new AIP is ready and they decide to start fitting it to their own subs they can take the upgraded Kilos out of service slice them in half and slip in a section with an AIP and then do the wiring and piping etc and then wield them all back up again with a slight increase in length and weight and a jump in performance. At the same time they might slip in another section for UKSK tubes too.

    The point is that the AIP is like an independent battery charger that is added in addition to the propulsion of the vessel, which is a diesel motor, batteries and an electric drive system.

    And still they are not near completion, but work progress are at a complete standstill.

    Of course it is. The decision to build 5 Upgraded Kilos means there is no rush to finish these Lada boats... which means the design can be perfected based on experience at sea with the first vessel so changes in design and construction can be made and applied to the vessels that have started construction.

    No point in completing them and having three testbed subs with the same design and the same problems.

    The two remaining Ladas will be completed to the new design of project 677M and their design is not urgent because the plans are for 10 conventional subs by 2020.... 5 upgraded Kilos have been ordered and two Project 677Ms will be completed by 2014-2015... that leaves 5 years to make 3 more project 677Ms, which should be pretty straight forward.

    Sad really, but the 636.3 with a AIP section added later should be amongst the worlds best, if not the best.

    They have ordered 5, though the AIP can be added later.

    Just let me hear that an AIP section is in real development.

    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/09/new-aip-modules-in-russia-brief-report.html

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  runaway on Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:54 am

    GarryB wrote: They clearly pushed a few boundaries with this sub and as a result the Project 677M will be a very powerful vessel, but it is clearly cheaper and easier to use the first sub as a test bed and apply the new ideas they learnt from it to two incomplete vessels that were in the process of being built.

    Yes, certainly, but wouldn´t be wiser to design the new propulsion first, on an older boat, so you dont waste a good new hull as a teast bed.
    We Swedes first developedt our AIP on an old Nacken class sub, then commenced building an entirely new class, Gotland, with Stirling engine Air Independent Propulsion, the new AIP already developed. Saves money, time and workforce.



    Don't understand what you mean here. In any design project at some stage you have to freeze the design for production otherwise you will end up with each product being slightly different from the one before... which is not good for logistics.

    And some projects are shut down, some dont, some should have, cause the end product is not good. As the M251 Sheridan, which never should have been built. Or perhaps the Sovremenny with its diastrous powerplant.

    The F-22, F-35 US planes are perhaps a good example too. They invest bilions of dollars and many years in a design which just dont seems to be a good design. Meanwhile, the older jets, F14, F15, F18 are falling out of lifespan and the new Sukhois have long passed them in terms of combat value.

    But another Sub example would be the terrible Brittish Upholder class.
    With just a few years in active service, they were quickly withdrawn and then sold cheap.
    While the customer Canada, after some time, were not happy at all with the sub.

    "Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.

    As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013."Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    Thanks Gary, you have eased my mind, perhaps the 677M will be a succes, as it doesnt seem they are ready to give up the project.

    The currently developed Russian AIP is built on the same electro-chemical generation principle, as hydrogen elements, but uses different less flammable reagents. The chemical ingredients used in the new AIP are not disclosed however. Like foreign analogs the last Russian AIP is built in plug-in module. Dyachkov also said Rubin is working in parallel to improve the lithium-ion batteries for subs. Currently the installation of lithium-ion batteries allows to make underwater time longer on 40%, while it's only 35-40% of the theoretically limits of this technology.

    So, it could be incorporated into the 636.3 as a modular section later on. Good news.
    But as you have said, with the new lithium-ion batteries, its hardly worth it.
    Maybe its better to invest in Sonar, Stealth and Weapon systems.

    Gun controll is about to hit the target..

    Ha, nice touch. Although as a serviceman, i object to civilians armed with magnum and automatic weapons for the fun of it. They should start bowling or fishing instead.
    But hey, thats a topic for another discussion.




    Vladimir79
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:21 pm

    runaway wrote:I`m worried it has somthing to do with the mono hull design, rather then propulsion. Or can you explain why the St petersburg isnt comissioned into the navy?

    Lada will not be accepted b/c...

    A) engine @ half rated power
    B) sonar obsolete
    C) software malfunctions




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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:36 am

    Lada will not be accepted b/c...

    A) engine @ half rated power
    B) sonar obsolete
    C) software malfunctions

    Three pretty concrete reasons not to put the first Lada into service.

    The two laid down keels on the other hand can be fitted with new propulsion, new Sonar, and of course Software is a non issue as it will almost certainly be rewritten and patched and updated through the life of the submarine anyway.

    Yes, certainly, but wouldn´t be wiser to design the new propulsion first, on an older boat, so you dont waste a good new hull as a teast bed.

    They are parallel developments... the AIP is designed to be used in addition to the existing propulsion so it really doesn't matter whether it is in a new ship from the start or an old test bed vessel. AFAIK the problems are not related to the AIP for the Lada, so I assume its design is progressing and improving.

    The Russian Navy have several secret test bed vessels and I doubt that the new AIP went on the first vessel of the Lada class first.

    We Swedes first developedt our AIP on an old Nacken class sub, then commenced building an entirely new class, Gotland, with Stirling engine Air Independent Propulsion, the new AIP already developed. Saves money, time and workforce.

    And the Russians are in a different position... they wanted the Lada class to be ready by now and entering service in numbers, but issues with the propulsion (not the AIP) and the Sonar have lead to delays. To fill the gap they are building an upgraded version of the Kilo to allow more time to get the Lada design right and to possibly further perfect the AIP. I don't know the status of their new AIP design... it might be ready or it might not. The fact that their export vessels will have Italian AIPs suggests they are not ready to export their new AIP technology... which either means it is not ready, or they are not ready to share it yet.

    Tests in the US with Gotland class SS subs shows how potent a diesel electric with an AIP can be... perhaps they don't want China to have such a vessel any time soon.

    And some projects are shut down, some dont, some should have, cause the end product is not good. As the M251 Sheridan, which never should have been built. Or perhaps the Sovremenny with its diastrous powerplant.

    Quite true, but the fact that they have taken the pressure off by building upgraded Kilos suggests they are prepared to take the time to get these subs right rather than rushing them into service and dealing with the problems created later.

    There are plenty of cases of things rushed into service before they are truly ready... vessels with the Klintok SAM sailed initially without the radar and control system... once it was installed it became a very capable system... the F-14 was actually not that great till it was upgraded to the F-14D model because of the rubbish engines used in the A model. Rubbish engines that were fine in the F-111.

    But another Sub example would be the terrible Brittish Upholder class.
    With just a few years in active service, they were quickly withdrawn and then sold cheap.
    While the customer Canada, after some time, were not happy at all with the sub.

    It is certainly possible that the 677M could be a dud... the 677 definitely seems to have had problems. On paper it looks like a very good vessel with reduced weight and size, new electronics and torpedoes and missiles, and a much smaller crew compared with a Kilo (from 52 to 34) and much quieter... which is saying something.

    If it delivers what it promises, then it should be a good vessel.

    Look at it like the Mi-28N... it has been visiting airshows and trade shows since about 1989, yet the Russian military have been getting incomplete aircraft that while better than the Mi-24 they are replacing are no where near the spec they are supposed to be capable of. The solution is the Mi-28M which will not enter production till 2014. They have had all this time and it still needs a lot of work. Why?

    The simple answer is that the Russian military paid lip service all this time. Not a surprise... nuclear forces and paying wages and pensions and other things were a much higher priority during most of that period so Mil was spending most of its meagre funds on its entire range of products, but for the Mi-28 the money spent was cosmetic and of course spent on getting it to airshows.

    When the real order actually came after 2004 or so they had a shell that was built in the late 1980s, so most of it... electronically was obsolete if it was even developed at all.

    They pretty much had to start from scratch.

    The point is that if they had somehow found the money to fully develop it in 1989 then it would be obsolete now and they still would have had to have redesign it anyway.

    The 677Ms will possibly benefit from a new military multi core processor plus perhaps new satellites in orbit to support its operations and a more robust Glonass system too.

    By 2014 they might even have the option of fitting a SAM section so they could replace their Igla man portable SAMs with Morfei point defence SAMs which have a shorter range, but with its lock on after launch capabilities could be fired from a submerged sub at an aerial target like a helo with a dipping sonar... How cool would that be?

    So, it could be incorporated into the 636.3 as a modular section later on. Good news.
    But as you have said, with the new lithium-ion batteries, its hardly worth it.
    Maybe its better to invest in Sonar, Stealth and Weapon systems.

    I am sure that adding an AIP and Lithium Ion batteries would extend their capabilities to the point where they could perform some missions previously only performed by nukes.

    As part of a test a conventional sub was given a small nuclear power plant as used on satellites. It was a 600Kw that extended the conventional subs underwater range from 350NM at 4knts to 7,000NM at 4knts. The nuclear power plant didn't give the sub SSN speed, but it was powerful enough to keep the batteries charged while under way at 4knts and also power the carbon dioxide scrubbers and run the electronics on the sub.

    7,000NMs at 4 knts is 1750 hours of continuous sailing, which is almost 73 days nonstop underwater...

    The small nuclear power plant is only about 1 metre square and about 4 metres long. A really big battery.

    Although as a serviceman, i object to civilians armed with magnum and automatic weapons for the fun of it.

    Banning murder hasn't stopped murder. Banning certain drugs hasn't stopped the illegal drug trade... in fact it created it.

    I would love to ban smoking and alcohol, but I recognise the futility, despite the damage these cause to society.

    Personally I think handguns are far more dangerous than "magnums" and automatic weapons... here in New Zealand handguns (ie pistols and revolvers) are restricted and cannot be used for hunting. I kinda like our laws the way they are, except the silly rules on MSSAs or military style semi automatic rifles... but that is a little off topic and being a mod I should set a good example... Smile

    They should start bowling or fishing instead.

    Actually mountain climbing probably kills as many people as hunting here in NZ, so perhaps that should be banned to?
    Do you know the number of people killed on roads by motor vehicles, so everyone should hand in their drivers licences and only professionals should be allowed to drive like taxi and bus drivers... if it saves one life then it is worth it.

    Sorry... said I wouldn't start and I have... Smile


    George1
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:45 pm

    I think that black sea fleet needs new corvettes like Steregushcy class to complement Krivak IV class frigates. Large ships like slava class cruiser should go to pacific fleet and old Krivaks and Karas should finally be decommissioned

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:04 pm

    I largely agree with your suggestions, but I think in the Black Sea they should have vessels a bit more potent than Corvettes.

    I would suggest 10-12 Frigate sized vessels and an Ivan Gren landing vessel... just in case Georgia starts getting delusional again.

    Corvettes would be sufficient in the Caspian Sea, perhaps with a Frigate flagship to coordinate things and carry around a Helo.

    The faster they can produce the new Frigates and the new Destroyers the better as there are plenty of older vessels that need to be replaced.

    The older vessels have a range of weapons and sensors and propulsion and electronics, so replacing them with new vessels with standardised kit like radars and EO turrets and weapon systems like the UKSK system and perhaps Redut etc will make maintainence and support much easier and cheaper.

    Would love it if they donated a Kara class ship to New Zealand and they docked it in Dunedin Harbour as a museum that people can go on board and have a look around on... Smile

    George1
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:46 pm

    Black sea is a "closed" sea. Russian navy don't need long range vessels there. Which are the threats for Russia in black sea? Torpedo boats of Georgia? I don't think so. Only Turkey is the real opponent. So they will have to face the modernized O.Hazard Perry and MEKO frigates and type 209 submarines of Turkish navy.
    I think that Stereguschy class for coastal defense and Krivak IV class multirole ships are enough (3+3). And maybe 1-2 Gorshkov class in the future

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:29 pm

    First of all the Caspian Sea is the closed sea, the Black Sea is Russias access to the Med, and its fastest route to north africa.

    I agree that they don't need Kirovs and Mistrals, but they do need vessels with decent firepower as many of the countries that border the Black Sea are NATO countries, so NATO air power is a direct threat... a Frigate would be much better equipped to defend itself than a Corvette.

    They will need an Ivan Gren class landing vessel to potentially do the "same again"... only better, and a few frigates will be useful for that.

    They want a decent force there but not too expensive and powerful.

    runaway
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  runaway on Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:41 pm

    George1 wrote:I think that black sea fleet needs new corvettes like Steregushcy class to complement Krivak IV class frigates.
    There is in fact a plan to do so, and rumors has that Yaroslav Mudry will transfer to BSF. Soon she will be in Tartus, and i think she will redeploy after that. Besides, a few Gorshkov class frigates will also be comissioned to BSF in the nearest time. The first in 2012-2013, Fleet Admiral Kasatonov.


    Large ships like slava class cruiser should go to pacific fleet and old Krivaks and Karas should finally be decommissioned

    Well, the Kara cruiser Ochakov, was decomissioned in Aug 2011, and as of beginning of 2012, the Kerch is the last active Kara cruiser. Its combat value is low, and the only reason to keep her is probably to have ships for crews to exercise and learn on.
    The last active Krivak , Ladny, is right now in Kuznetsovs task force, and she will probably remain in service until the new frigates are comissioned.

    I think the Slava class Moskva will remain BSF flagship, for a number of reasons.
    First, she is important for "show of force" or "showing the flag"
    Second, the BS and Med is a hotspot now, much more than the Pacific. They need every ship they can deploy there.
    Third, but perhaps not last, as Moskva is beginning to get obselete, i stress i say beginning, it would make little sence in redeploying her before a modernization and refit.


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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:13 pm

    I would add that the traitorous attack by Georgia on South Ossetia was a real kick in the balls to the Russians... it was a very nasty surprise that made them realise they have a few vulnerabilities that they need to address.

    Their biggest vulnerabilities are the Kurile Islands in the far east... because the Japanese Navy is quite capable and the Far East Fleet, or Pacific Fleet was in a very poor state... not just in ships and subs, but in ports and support vessels.

    They need a huge number of smaller ships like Corvettes up to Destroyer and Frigates in between to do the bread and butter work and form the arms and legs of a carrier group... carriers and cruisers providing the head and body.

    The small ships and support ships are needed and will be easiest to start making and their development and production will create a workforce and tooling and port upgrades needed to build both larger ships and the support ships needed to operate a real navy.

    TR1
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:43 pm

    Kerch is in great shape, regularly goes out and does 30 plus knots, everything working, crews happy with ship. Certainly much more useful combat unit than ancient Smetlivyy.

    Happy Birthday to the Pitlivy, it turns 30 this day! Very busy ship too.

    I expect by 2017 at the latest for the older large ships (Smetlivy, Kerch, Ladny and Pitlivy) to all be gone, though the replacements (Grigorovich line) should arrive on time.

    At the current pace, Black Sea Fleet and Caspian Flotilla will be in solid shape with new ships well before 2020:

    BSF (what we know so far):
    Admiral Grigorovich
    Admiral Essen
    Admiral Makarov
    Alrosa + 3 636.3
    At least 1 22350 (likely Admiral Kasatatonov)
    At least 1 20385
    Potential transfer of Neustrashimy and Yaroslav Mudry

    Caspian has both 11661 frigates, 3 21630 corvettes by 2012, and is due to receive the first 21631 next year as well.

    Russian Patriot
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:50 pm

    Russian Black Sea Fleet Secrets Threatened by Hotel Project

    The Staff of the Russian Black Sea Fleet said it faces information safety problems over plans to build a hotel in the immediate vicinity of its headquarters.

    The construction of a high-rise hotel building within 50 meters from the Black Sea Fleet headquarters in the Ukrainian city of Sevastopol is due to begin this year.

    “The fleet’s command is seriously concerned over plans to build a hotel near our headquarters,” a Black Sea Fleet source said.

    “Wiretapping and jamming equipment and can easily be installed in the hotel building. The threat of tapping incoming and outgoing secret reports and orders, as well as phone conversations, will become completely real,” he went on.

    He said that objects of military importance, including the headquarters itself, should always be individual buildings surrounded with a high-security perimeter.

    “Subversive actions and provocations directed at officers should not be ruled out either,” the source added. “However, it will be impossible for us to take any anti-terrorist or anti-subversive measures in the hotel because this will be private property.”

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120315/172185137.html

    medo
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:46 pm

    I think naval base in Novorossijsk will be far more important as they think before.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Firebird on Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:37 pm

    Russian Patriot wrote:Russian Black Sea Fleet Secrets Threatened by Hotel Project

    The Staff of the Russian Black Sea Fleet said it faces information safety problems over plans to build a hotel in the immediate vicinity of its headquarters.

    The construction of a high-rise hotel building within 50 meters from the Black Sea Fleet headquarters in the Ukrainian city of Sevastopol is due to begin this year.

    “The fleet’s command is seriously concerned over plans to build a hotel near our headquarters,” a Black Sea Fleet source said.

    “Wiretapping and jamming equipment and can easily be installed in the hotel building. The threat of tapping incoming and outgoing secret reports and orders, as well as phone conversations, will become completely real,” he went on.

    He said that objects of military importance, including the headquarters itself, should always be individual buildings surrounded with a high-security perimeter.

    “Subversive actions and provocations directed at officers should not be ruled out either,” the source added. “However, it will be impossible for us to take any anti-terrorist or anti-subversive measures in the hotel because this will be private property.”

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120315/172185137.html

    Some of these (nearly always) West Ukrainians never cease to amaze me. So much of the Ukraine is still staunchly Russian, and would have been even more so, if many of its residents hadn't felt forced to leave ( courtesy of W Ukrainian. anti-Russian nonsense).

    Isn't it time Russia showed a firmer hand with that.
    BTW a large part of my family are from Kiev. Considered 90% Russian in the earlier 20th Century.

    GarryB
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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:28 am

    The Germans blamed all their problems on the Jews and other groups holding them back and leaching of the German people... we all know how that ended, but we can also see that it is easy to motivate a large group of people by blaming their problems on another group of people...

    All too easy to do sadly.

    Still, some groups earned that animosity like the Nazis.

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Firebird on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:25 am

    But Garry u have to understand that the Ukraine started off as the epicentre of Russia. It has been part of Russia for over 1000 years, barring Mongol and Polish-Lithuanian invasions. Its claims for complete independence are probably the most bizarre in international politics. I'm not bothered about Lviv and places like that in the West but actually the side that has aligned itself as part of Russia for a millenium or more.

    The Crimea was actually symbolically donated to the Ukraine during the USSR times. The argument was "we're all one country now, so its just symbolic".

    The whole Ukraine independence( or rather outside of CIS, CSTO) thing has been caused by Wwestern agitation and shitstirring. People who were born Russian are told by West Ukrainians "|Russian is a foreign language u cannnot speak it or have Russian citizenship". Its this persecution and nonsense which has caused so many Russians to leave the Ukraine ( my relatives included).
    In addition, the Ukraine benefitted massively from being part of the USSR and Russian Empire.

    Somepeople might argue abut the West, but the Russian case for anyting east of the Dnieper is pretty overwhelming IMO. It needs to be made clear that Sevastopol is Russian and always will be, together with full rights and protections.

    PS imagine if Russia started getting Hispanics to claim/ claim Texas, New Mex and California for Mexico..
    Or if Mexico said to the US Pac Fleet "right we want u out of San Diego in 10 years"..

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