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    Future of the Black Sea Fleet

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    TR1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:43 am

    http://topwar.ru/10944-za-tri-goda-v-boevoy-sostav-chernomorskogo-flota-voydet-shest-varshavyanok.html

    Ok, sorry if repost, but I missed this. Now they are saying SIX Varshavyanka's are goign to the BSF. Before it was the 3 being laid down right now plus the Alrosa, which is in overhaul. Now the admiral is saying there will be 3 in 2014, 1 in 2015, and last 2 in 2016.

    BSF is looking for a huge combat potential increase throughout this decade.
    There has only been 1 active sub (Alrosa) for years, and that is a problem when it goes for repairs.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:31 am

    The expansion of the BSF suggests they want to expand operations in the Med...
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:46 pm

    Subs in the Black Sea cannot sail to the Mediterranean sea because of a treaty limiting the passage of subs and aircraft carriers through the Bosphorus.
    Any subs the BSF will be getting will be solely for operations in the Black Sea.
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    TR1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:10 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Subs in the Black Sea cannot sail to the Mediterranean sea because of a treaty limiting the passage of subs and aircraft carriers through the Bosphorus.
    Any subs the BSF will be getting will be solely for operations in the Black Sea.

    One wonders what in in the world they need to increase the sub fleet 700% by then. Georgia? Nahh.
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    medo

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:42 pm

    Maybe they will sail from Black Sea via Don and Volga river to Caspian Sea.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:21 pm

    The Montreux Convention does not ban aircraft carriers specifically and has a range of exemptions which apply to Black Sea Navies.

    Both the Kuznetsov and Kiev class Soviet/Russian carriers have passed through straights between the Black Sea and the Med.

    Subs have also passed through, with prior permission from Turkey.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:55 am

    - 6 new subs means lots of land attack kalibers attacking any future hostile Black sea nation such as Turkey/Georgia etc. or even beyond....remember domestic kaliber has 2000km range. Think of the Black sea as a bastion for diesel-electric subs.
    - The new subs with their ASM clubs form a powerfull deterrent against any hostile task force entering the Black Sea.
    - 6 new subs with ASM missiles mean that any other Black sea nation navy is second rate.
    - Because the Black sea will have air cover from the RuAF. AIP is not that important.
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    runaway

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    Now they are saying SIX Varshavyanka's are goign to the BSF.

    Post  runaway on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:08 am

    TheArmenian wrote:-
    - Because the Black sea will have air cover from the RuAF. AIP is not that important.

    Clearly the Navy has another opinion.


    The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    The design of the diesel-electric Lada class was completed at the end of the 1990s, but none of the planned boats have entered service, although the lead ship in the class, the Saint Petersburg, is undergoing trials with the Baltic Fleet, Vysotsky said.

    “The Russian Navy does not need the Lada in its current form,” he said.

    Vysotsky also said the first the non-nuclear Russian submarine with anaerobic propulsion may begin trials in 2014.

    Currently all of Russia’s submarines are either nuclear or diesel-electric powered.

    “It is entirely possible we will receive a test version of an air-independent power plant in the next few years. On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.


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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:50 pm

    Russian Black Sea Fleet Secrets Threatened by Hotel Project

    The Staff of the Russian Black Sea Fleet said it faces information safety problems over plans to build a hotel in the immediate vicinity of its headquarters.

    The construction of a high-rise hotel building within 50 meters from the Black Sea Fleet headquarters in the Ukrainian city of Sevastopol is due to begin this year.

    “The fleet’s command is seriously concerned over plans to build a hotel near our headquarters,” a Black Sea Fleet source said.

    “Wiretapping and jamming equipment and can easily be installed in the hotel building. The threat of tapping incoming and outgoing secret reports and orders, as well as phone conversations, will become completely real,” he went on.

    He said that objects of military importance, including the headquarters itself, should always be individual buildings surrounded with a high-security perimeter.

    “Subversive actions and provocations directed at officers should not be ruled out either,” the source added. “However, it will be impossible for us to take any anti-terrorist or anti-subversive measures in the hotel because this will be private property.”

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120315/172185137.html
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    medo

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  medo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:46 pm

    I think naval base in Novorossijsk will be far more important as they think before.

    Firebird

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Firebird on Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:37 pm

    Russian Patriot wrote:Russian Black Sea Fleet Secrets Threatened by Hotel Project

    The Staff of the Russian Black Sea Fleet said it faces information safety problems over plans to build a hotel in the immediate vicinity of its headquarters.

    The construction of a high-rise hotel building within 50 meters from the Black Sea Fleet headquarters in the Ukrainian city of Sevastopol is due to begin this year.

    “The fleet’s command is seriously concerned over plans to build a hotel near our headquarters,” a Black Sea Fleet source said.

    “Wiretapping and jamming equipment and can easily be installed in the hotel building. The threat of tapping incoming and outgoing secret reports and orders, as well as phone conversations, will become completely real,” he went on.

    He said that objects of military importance, including the headquarters itself, should always be individual buildings surrounded with a high-security perimeter.

    “Subversive actions and provocations directed at officers should not be ruled out either,” the source added. “However, it will be impossible for us to take any anti-terrorist or anti-subversive measures in the hotel because this will be private property.”

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120315/172185137.html

    Some of these (nearly always) West Ukrainians never cease to amaze me. So much of the Ukraine is still staunchly Russian, and would have been even more so, if many of its residents hadn't felt forced to leave ( courtesy of W Ukrainian. anti-Russian nonsense).

    Isn't it time Russia showed a firmer hand with that.
    BTW a large part of my family are from Kiev. Considered 90% Russian in the earlier 20th Century.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:28 am

    The Germans blamed all their problems on the Jews and other groups holding them back and leaching of the German people... we all know how that ended, but we can also see that it is easy to motivate a large group of people by blaming their problems on another group of people...

    All too easy to do sadly.

    Still, some groups earned that animosity like the Nazis.

    Firebird

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  Firebird on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:25 pm

    But Garry u have to understand that the Ukraine started off as the epicentre of Russia. It has been part of Russia for over 1000 years, barring Mongol and Polish-Lithuanian invasions. Its claims for complete independence are probably the most bizarre in international politics. I'm not bothered about Lviv and places like that in the West but actually the side that has aligned itself as part of Russia for a millenium or more.

    The Crimea was actually symbolically donated to the Ukraine during the USSR times. The argument was "we're all one country now, so its just symbolic".

    The whole Ukraine independence( or rather outside of CIS, CSTO) thing has been caused by Wwestern agitation and shitstirring. People who were born Russian are told by West Ukrainians "|Russian is a foreign language u cannnot speak it or have Russian citizenship". Its this persecution and nonsense which has caused so many Russians to leave the Ukraine ( my relatives included).
    In addition, the Ukraine benefitted massively from being part of the USSR and Russian Empire.

    Somepeople might argue abut the West, but the Russian case for anyting east of the Dnieper is pretty overwhelming IMO. It needs to be made clear that Sevastopol is Russian and always will be, together with full rights and protections.

    PS imagine if Russia started getting Hispanics to claim/ claim Texas, New Mex and California for Mexico..
    Or if Mexico said to the US Pac Fleet "right we want u out of San Diego in 10 years"..
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:01 am

    It is a difficult situation, but force will not solve the problem.

    In many cases people ignore that relationships are two way things... Russian Black Sea Fleet vessels might think of Sev as their home, but I would rather expect that a lot of the Crimea thinks of itself as the home of the Black Sea Fleet too. I rather suspect many of the locals have good relations with Russia and Russians... as shown by the protests when a NATO vessel visits the port.

    Perhaps a referendum is in order?

    On the one hand you have all the infrastructure and investment in what is basically a foreign country, and of course all the people.

    The lease has been extended into 2040, but what happens them?

    The Navy is going through a huge rebuilding phase right now, perhaps some hard decisions need to be made... foreign bases are going to become important to Russia including Tartus and Cuba and Venezuela and Vietnam, which in the change of a government could all be lost, which would be a problem but not a reason not to have them.

    Perhaps the solution is to move the HQ for the BSF to Novorossijsk, but keep the fleet at Sevastopol.

    That would shift thousands of people out of Sev and into Nov, which will shift a lot of spending from the Crimea back to the Russian economy and will enable better information security. It should also add investment to Novorossijsk which should be good for them, and for the Crimea it will likely free up some old buildings.
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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:09 pm

    Moscow Hopes to Agree Fleet Upgrade with Ukraine by Yearend

    Russia expects to reach an agreement with Ukraine on the modernization of its Black Sea Fleet before the end of the year, fleet commander Rear Adm. Alexander Fedotenkov said on Monday.

    The agreement should enable Russia to bring in new warships to the naval base it rents in the Crimean port of Sevastopol, Fedotenkov said.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry said earlier that Ukraine had objected to the replacement of the fleet’s obsolete warships with new ones.

    Under the 1997 treaty, giving Russia use of the port of Sevastopol, Russia may not increase the number of warships in Crimea or modernize their weapon systems.

    In accordance with a 2010 agreement, Russia’s Black Fleet is to stay in Crimea through 2042.

    Russia will also negotiate with Ukraine on the use of the Nitka naval pilot training facility.

    The facility was built in Soviet days for pilots to practice their skills in taking off from and landing on an aircraft carrier's deck.

    After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, the facility remained under Ukrainian jurisdiction. The Ukrainian Navy does not have an aircraft carrier, while Russia has only one - the Admiral Kuznetsov - and plans to build at least three nuclear powered aircraft carriers in the future.

    The center provides naval aviation training facilities such as a launch pad, an aerofinisher, a trampoline, a catapult launching device, a glide-path localizer, a marker beacon, and an optical landing system.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120730/174859331.html
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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  George1 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:21 pm

    Russia Lays Down Diesel Sub Stary Oskol for Black Sea Fleet on Aug 17

    The solemn keel-laying ceremony of diesel electric submarine for Black Sea Fleet (BSF) will take place at 12-th workshop of JSC Admiralteyskie Verfi shipyard on Aug 17, 2012.

    Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Viktor Chirkov, president of United Shipbuilding Corporation Andrei Diachkov, director general of JSC Admiralteyskie Verfi Alexander Buzakov, representatives of St. Petersburg city administration, Leningrad Naval Base high-ranking officials, and other honored guests were invited to attend the ceremony.

    Project 06363 diesel electric submarine Stary Oskol (serial number 01672) is the third sub in series being built by Admiralteyskie Verfi for Russian Navy. Just like the lead sub and the first serial one, SSK Stary Oskol is meant to reinforce BSF submarine fleet. According to Russian Navy's plans, Admiralteyskie Verfi will build six subs of that kind for Black Sea Fleet.

    Lead submarine of the project, B-261 Novorossiysk was laid down in Aug 2010 (serial number 01670); keel laying of the second hull, B-237 Rostov-na-Donu (serial number 01671) was held in Nov 2011. Alexander Buzakov, the then acting director general of Admiralteyskie Verfi said in the spring of 2012 that the lead sub would be launched late in 2013.

    Submarines of upgraded Project 06363 developed by Rubin Central Design Bureau are more effective comparing to the basic project. Main difference lies in considerably higher attack capability thanks to newest missile system Caliber-PL engaging not only sea targets but land inshore ones too. Optimal combination of acoustic concealment and target detection range, advanced inertial navigation system, up-to-date automated tactical data system, powerful rapid torpedo and missile arms make subs of this project the world's leaders in non-nuclear submarine building industry.

    In NATO, these submarines are classified as Improved Kilo.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15652
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:38 pm

    No thanks - we don't need any territory from the Ukraine thank you! Not Sevastopol, not anywhere else. It's their country - so let them sort it out. Or let God sort them all out. Or something. The Ukraine was created not by the West but by Soviet leaders in the 20s, and then was further extended by Kruschshev. It was a USSR republic for some 70 years before it became independent.

    Besides which - the Russian population and places like the Crimea help keep the pro-Russian side of the Ukraine strong. If those areas all leave than we'll just be left with a bunch of haters who are going to do their utmost to spite Russia, fill their country with American soldiers, etc...

    Anyway - don't know don't care. Main thing is that the Russian Black Sea fleet maintains its base there.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:13 am

    My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:06 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels

    How about some hypersonic plasma-stealth bombers while you're at it Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:11 am

    Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit Flamy...

    I do agree that Russia needs to cooperate with its neighbours, and despite its history in the Crimea they also need to think about alternatives because pumping too much money into what is foreign territory is not a great thing.

    Perhaps in 2040 Russia could buy the Crimea from the Ukraine?

    Or the other acceptable alternative is to have a referendum in the Crimea.

    Look at the results of Georgia trying to take South Ossetia by force... there was no way that was ever going to work.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:30 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels

    How about some hypersonic plasma-stealth bombers while you're at it Very Happy

    Is russia so low on money that the black sea fleet cant expand to that much ships in 10-15 years?
    What a huge expansion program Rolling Eyes
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:39 pm

    The agreement on basing rights with the Ukraine means any expansion of capability or size needs to be negotiated with them first.

    There are other fleets that need attention too.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    TR1

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:18 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:My personal layout for the future ChMF:
    2 upgraded slava cruisers

    3 future russian destroyers

    5 gorshkov frigates

    12 stereguschy corvettes

    4 ivan gren landing ships

    30 mine sweepers

    20 missile boats

    around 30 auxilary vessels

    How about some hypersonic plasma-stealth bombers while you're at it Very Happy

    Is russia so low on money that the black sea fleet cant expand to that much ships in 10-15 years?
    What a huge expansion program Rolling Eyes

    12 Steregyshy for 1 fleet alone?
    5 Gorshkov?
    3 Destroyers?!?!

    There won't be much more for the entire navy by 2020, forget about Black Sea Fleet.
    Not to mention, what is the point?

    The BSF, btw, is not lacking for ships.
    If anything, by already concrete plans, the BSF is seeing a massive increase in submarine strength, and more than 1 to 1 replacement in terms of large surface combatants (if we talk about current fleet, not old Soviet fleet which was ofc bigger.)

    Since fall of USSR, aside from old boats which are not operational anyways, the BSF has only had the Alrosa. Now they are laying down 3 project 636 boats for the BSF alone! And supposedly there maybe another trio behind it! So the submarine strength is increased by either 4 or 7 times.

    Then we have surface ships. Currently it is composed of the Moskva, the Kerch, Smetlivy and the two frigates - Pitlivy and Ladny. All aside from Moskva will be gone by around 2015 I suspect.
    For replacement, by today's plans, we have:
    A trio of 11356M frigates (Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen, Admiral Makarov)
    At least 1 22350 frigate (Admiral Kasatonov. More units possible.
    At least 1 20385 corvette. Very likely to be more units.
    There has also been talk of transferring the Neustrashimy and Yaroslav Mudry from the Baltic, though I hope it does not happen, and the plans may have been scrapped.
    There are also 21631 missile ships planned.
    And don't forget the nearby Capsian Flotilla is well stocked in new vessels (11661 frigates and 21630 gunboats).

    If anything the BSF has the most certain future of any fleet.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:07 am

    There is absolutely no need for anything larger than frigates in the Black Sea fleet. No Slavas, no destroyers; they would both be heavily limited by being confined to such small lakes as the Black Sea or even Meditteranean.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Future of the Black Sea Fleet

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:12 am

    GarryB wrote:Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit Flamy...

    I do agree that Russia needs to cooperate with its neighbours, and despite its history in the Crimea they also need to think about alternatives because pumping too much money into what is foreign territory is not a great thing.

    Ukraine is welcome to join the economic union that Russia is proposing. Then, pumping money into Sevastopol won't seem like money wasted; because what would be good for Ukrainian infastructure and economy would be good for the Russian one too

    Perhaps in 2040 Russia could buy the Crimea from the Ukraine?

    Perhaps buying Sevastopol and using it as a sort of Russian Gibraltar would make some sense. But the Ukrainians I doubt would ever agree to that.

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