Submarine Project 677 upgrade after 2013 - CDB "Ruby"
MOSCOW, November 24 - RIA Novosti. Diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 "Lada" will modernize the technical refinement of the project will be completed in 2013, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, general manager of the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin" (project developer), Andrew deacons.
He was commenting on reports by some media that the test boats of this project have been frozen.
"Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.
He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.
As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013.
A series of Russian diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 is designed chief designer Yuri Kormilitsin. Feature of the series is a combination of small size and low noise level with a powerful torpedoes and torpedo-missile weapons.
The boats are designed to destroy submarines, surface ships and vessels of the enemy, protect naval bases, sea coast and sea lanes, conduct reconnaissance. Series is a development project 877 "halibut." Displacement of the ship is 1765 tons, the maximum depth - 350 meters, speed - 21 knots, the crew - 36 people, autonomy - 45 days, armed with torpedoes and missiles, torpedoes, and air defense systems "Igla-1M."
Whats not to like is that the first sub which was laid down 1997, launched in 2006, will not be accepted into the Navy.
Keep in mind that funding through the 1990s and up until about 2005 was pathetic... the fact that it was even built shows while everything else was completely neglected, that it got funding... sort of tells you it had priority status... something it hasn't lost.
Or can you explain why the St petersburg isnt comissioned into the navy? (assuming we`re not the victims of Maskirovka)
For the same reason the first Flanker wasn't commissioned into the Russian Air Force. Fundamental flaws and problems that needed new solutions. To late to apply to this vessel, but they need a test bed vessel to test new stuff on anyway, so it gets that role instead. It is really not as big a deal as you are making out.
When designing stuff you invest a lot of time and money and effort. They clearly pushed a few boundaries with this sub and as a result the Project 677M will be a very powerful vessel, but it is clearly cheaper and easier to use the first sub as a test bed and apply the new ideas they learnt from it to two incomplete vessels that were in the process of being built.
If things were desperate then upgrading the original vessel might be an option, but clearly the production of 5 upgraded Kilos class vessels means there is no desperate situation... the new upgraded Kilos have filled that gap and they can spend a little more time getting the Ladas right.
They can also continue further work and testing on the first vessel to further refine the design.
Sounds perfectly sensible to me.
Yes the Kilo 636.3 is an excellent sub, but as it dont have AIP, its at an disadvantage.
AIP just allows a sub to remain submerged for longer periods. It is a good feature to have, but modern lithium Ion batteries on their own would increase their underwater performance by 40% alone... the Kilos without AIPs are described as being able to remain submerged for 10 days, which is pretty close to the two weeks or so that uber western vessels with AIPs can manage.
The Russian navy has a few Akulas and Sierras and other vessels that can also stay underwater for long periods on very long trips... the conventional Russians subs will be largely coastal for the next few years anyway.
Great, they can export Kilos with Italian AIP, but doesnt have for themselves.
For years they exported Su-30MKIs and had Su-27s for their own forces. The gap is rather less in this case.
And no, the PAK FA is no failure, yet. I would however be concerned if they lay the building of new PAK FA planes, prototypes on ice.
Don't understand what you mean here. In any design project at some stage you have to freeze the design for production otherwise you will end up with each product being slightly different from the one before... which is not good for logistics.
To put it in PAK FA terms once all the PAK FA prototypes have been produced and they integrate all the bits and pieces they will then upgrade all the PAK FA prototypes to working condition and they will likely be sent to Lipsek for operational conversion training and to create operations manuals and tactics, and of course create a maintainence schedule and manuals.
For a ship it is obviously a bit different because of the scale and cost... normally operational problems with systems don't really show themselves till the ship is in the water and people are trying to use it for the things they use it for.
When problems come up with propulsion (including AIP) and the Sonar, that require major redesign and reworking, then sometimes it is easier to start from an earlier position in the construction process to make those changes. For two vessels in the process of being built that is the case. For the vessel that has completed testing that is not the case.
They need vessels for testing, so the vessel can be used for that... they save money on having to make a fundamental conversion, and also money on making a testbed sub.
Obviously if things were urgent then converting the sub to make it operational makes sense. Things are not urgent because there are five new upgraded Kilos being made.
But Lada class. Seems to be a failure, and they have decided to cut losses and pull the plug on the project.
Not according to the article above.
There wouldn't be any problems if they weren't pushing hard at the boundaries... I would be worried if there weren't problems.
Hope i am wrong but if i am right, there IS cause to engage heavily to begin construction of a new project with workable AIP ASAP.
The AIP they are working on is a drop in system... like a short section with VLS tubes for land attack missiles. You don't need to develop a new type of sub... the work on the AIP and the new generation sub are quite separate and actually not really related.
Once their new AIP is ready and they decide to start fitting it to their own subs they can take the upgraded Kilos out of service slice them in half and slip in a section with an AIP and then do the wiring and piping etc and then wield them all back up again with a slight increase in length and weight and a jump in performance. At the same time they might slip in another section for UKSK tubes too.
The point is that the AIP is like an independent battery charger that is added in addition to the propulsion of the vessel, which is a diesel motor, batteries and an electric drive system.
And still they are not near completion, but work progress are at a complete standstill.
Of course it is. The decision to build 5 Upgraded Kilos means there is no rush to finish these Lada boats... which means the design can be perfected based on experience at sea with the first vessel so changes in design and construction can be made and applied to the vessels that have started construction.
No point in completing them and having three testbed subs with the same design and the same problems.
The two remaining Ladas will be completed to the new design of project 677M and their design is not urgent because the plans are for 10 conventional subs by 2020.... 5 upgraded Kilos have been ordered and two Project 677Ms will be completed by 2014-2015... that leaves 5 years to make 3 more project 677Ms, which should be pretty straight forward.
Sad really, but the 636.3 with a AIP section added later should be amongst the worlds best, if not the best.
They have ordered 5, though the AIP can be added later.
Just let me hear that an AIP section is in real development.