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    RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:53 am

    This will be interesting because the US claims the purpose of their sanctions against countries that buy major Russian weapons is to stop the purchases and that any waivers are only temporary so the country can see the light and realise what they really need is the US equivalent to the Russian system they are buying...

    Don't see this working so India is going to get US sanctions...

    Wonder how this will effect existing deals on other systems... C-17, P-8, Ah-64s etc etc... especially when a different political party takes office in the US... will they try to be hard line or more flexible?

    You can bet your ass the Indians wont be told who they can or cannot buy from...
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    Post  medo on Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:47 pm

    Something is quite strange regarding Biho. Japanese claim, that their Type 87 SPAAG is better than Biho because of stabilization with full capabilities to fire on the move and that Biho hardly have any stabilization. It is interesting, when you read about Biho, no stabilization is mentioned. This could mean, that Biho is excellent with firing stationary, but not when firing on the move.

    How could K30 Biho beat new Tunguska-M1, which have full stabilization and could effectively fire on the move with guns?
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    Post  medo on Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:21 pm

    It become more clear now. Biho doesn't have stabilization, so its capabilities to fire on the move are very limited to say it mildly. I realy wonder, how Biho could be better than Tunguska, not to say Pantsir. This is really about political correctnes and to please pro western lobby in Indian army. Even old Shilka have full stabilization.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:44 am

    Looks to me to be a case of diversification of sources rather than anything to do with the merits or otherwise of the product.

    Sad that they want to do this to their forces for the illusion of import reliability... AFAIK Russia has never refused to deliver anything the Indians have paid for, and the only problems they ever seem to have was problems with delivery of spare parts and support because they were not included in the original contract...
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:Looks to me to be a case of diversification of sources rather than anything to do with the merits or otherwise of the product.

    Sad that they want to do this to their forces for the illusion of import reliability... AFAIK Russia has never refused to deliver anything the Indians have paid for, and the only problems they ever seem to have was problems with delivery of spare parts and support because they were not included in the original contract...

    This is what happens when European countries like Russia put all their proverbial eggs in the basket of these third world, morally corrupt nations like India.

    We have far more in common with European countries. For instance 10% of Russians exports go to the Netherlands. If the Kremlin tries, they will surely be able to sell weapons to EU countries as well, apart from cash rich Arab states.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:11 am

    Taiwan’s Mirage 2000s ‘need only 6 mins’ to intercept PLA warplanes
    Yet since it was commissioned, Taiwan’s Mirage fleet has suffered from low operational readiness, high maintenance costs and higher-than-expected wear and tear, possibly due to the island’s subtropical climate.
    If they "suffer" in subtropics, how the Rafales will avoid that in India?
    Vietnam & Indonesia also have Su-27/-30s, but I never heard them suffering from hot & humid conditions.
    OTH, the Mirages were used mostly in temperate/desert climates, & AFAIK, they weren't deployed to tropical French Guiana/Polynesia to give the designers in their air conditioned offices a valuable feedback:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III#Exports_and_license_production
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5#Operators
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Operational_history
    The RoCAF's Mirages have suffered from low operational readiness and high maintenance costs; the harsh environment and high operational tempo had caused higher-than-expected wear and tear. After the presence of cracks in the blades of the aircraft's engines were detected in 2009, Dassault worked with Taiwanese authorities to successfully rectify the issue and provided compensation for the engine damage. By the following year, normal training hours of 15 per month had resumed and the fleet's operational readiness had been restored, after having reportedly dropped to 6 hours per month because of the engine troubles. In addition to this issue, there were considerations of mothballing the entire Mirage fleet because of its high maintenance costs.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Taiwan

    I doubt that the Rafale won't be a deja vu!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:12 pm

    This is what happens when European countries like Russia put all their proverbial eggs in the basket of these third world, morally corrupt nations like India.

    Hahahahahha... please don't talk about morally corrupt nations and European countries in the same sentence... the centre for moral corruption is Europe... though the US really does make a case for the top crown it has not been doing it as long as those dirty europeans.

    We have far more in common with European countries.

    No you don't.

    They hate you.

    For instance 10% of Russians exports go to the Netherlands.

    Funny... if you want to find a psychotic racist angry Israeli that is happy to murder for his own entertainment start by looking for one with an American accent... because it is their right to kill and murder and anyone that defends themselves is a terrorist.

    Look to South Africa or New Zealand or Australia and most of the hard line racists have dutch accents... that is not an accident either...

    If the Kremlin tries, they will surely be able to sell weapons to EU countries as well, apart from cash rich Arab states.

    Yeah... they would be just as likely to pass those weapons on to Chechen separatists and Ukrainian "freedom fighters".

    Why do you suck up to the west so much... don't you understand you are a challenge... a rival... and they don't share power...

    If Europe had its way, Russia today would look much like the Soviet Union would if Hitler had won... but it would be provinces split up amongst the major EU countries... sharing out known resources like oil and gas and minerals, with the locals serving as the manual labour force to dig in the mines...

    Look at the UN... sometimes China and India votes with Russia or at least does not vote against it... all the countries of the EU vote against Russia and enjoy doing so... and not just to please their masters in Brussels and London and Washington.

    In the EU there are a couple of countries that might be worth good relations with... by all means trade with them all... but don't provide weapons to your enemy if you can help it... and if you do... make them pay top dollar... like Saudi Arabia.

    Personally I would go through all the EU meeting notes and take note of the way each country voted when the issue of Russia or Russian sanctions came up... it will be pretty clear from that who Russia can constructively trade with and who they can trade only on very beneficial terms with.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:01 pm

    jhelb wrote:If the Kremlin tries, they will surely be able to sell weapons to EU countries as well, apart from cash rich Arab states.

    No.

    Buying Russian weapons is not profitable for Western politician.

    Russia only provide good and effective weapons, not services of money laundering.
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    Post  jhelb on Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:Hahahahahha... please don't talk about morally corrupt nations and European countries in the same sentence... the centre for moral corruption is Europe... though the US really does make a case for the top crown it has not been doing it as long as those dirty europeans.

    Corruption is in order of magnitude higher in third world countries - African, India etc than it is in Europe. In fact corruption keeps them poor.

    If Russia continues to deal with these corrupt states, sooner than later Russia will become as much corrupt as these African, Asian countries.


    GarryB wrote:They hate you.

    They envy Russia, not necessarily hate.

    European culture is more or less the same. But imagine African, Hindu etc. Morally bankrupt, intellectually pauper. There is no common ground with rich Russian culture.
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:51 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Hahahahahha... please don't talk about morally corrupt nations and European countries in the same sentence... the centre for moral corruption is Europe... though the US really does make a case for the top crown it has not been doing it as long as those dirty europeans.

    Corruption is in order of magnitude higher in third world countries - African, India etc than it is in Europe. In fact corruption keeps them poor.

    If Russia continues to deal with these corrupt states, sooner than later Russia will become as much corrupt as these African, Asian countries.


    GarryB wrote:They hate you.

    They envy Russia, not necessarily hate.

    European culture is more or less the same. But imagine African, Hindu etc. Morally bankrupt, intellectually pauper. There is no common ground with rich Russian culture.

    All states are corrupt it is just that it varies. Those states generally perceived to be corrupt tend to be those where it is both low and high level and clearly visible. The really corrupt states are those where it is high level, like the US Congress, so is masked from public comment with any comment on the subject being crushed by their, paid for, MSM immediately raising the lot in the previous sentence.

    Also perception of what is 'corruption' is different in different societies. For example, is giving to a family member a job in in preference to others in a non family business or state organisation corruption or not? Depends where you are.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:57 am

    If India orders Gripens, I won't be surprised!
    In 2015 after the Rafale order was cut back to just 36 aircraft, Saab indicated a willingness to set up joint production of the Gripen in India. In October 2016, it was reported that Saab, among other manufacturers, had been sent an informal request-for-information query, resuming a new competition for a single-engine fighter to replace the Indian Air Force's Soviet-built MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft. Saab had already submitted an "unsolicited bid".
    In November 2017, Saab pledged full Gripen E technology transfer to India if it is awarded the contract.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen#India

    In many ways, Thailand is the Sweden of SE Asia, & Brazil is India of S. America, so their choice is understandable:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen#Thailand
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen#Brazil
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:00 am

    Corruption is in order of magnitude higher in third world countries - African, India etc than it is in Europe. In fact corruption keeps them poor.

    Who told you that?

    Look at the US... the MIC runs the pentagon and congress and the senate... money and jobs talk... it is not even political they bribe both sides and it is all official... they call it a lobby group but it is blatant bribery.

    What keeps the third world poor is because of the deal they have gotten from the west... they have no concept of land ownership so first they steal land... for some native a dollar is a lot of money so give them a dollar for the fist sized diamond they find in a mine they will likely spend their entire lives working in for a dollar a week and a dollar bonus if they find a really big diamond... the mine owner takes those diamonds to London and gets them cut for a few thousand dollars and has million dollar cut diamonds to sell to rich westerners... not a cent goes back to the third world people who live where the mine is or work in the mines for less than any westerner would even consider working for... the west rapes the third world and stifles development so they can keep the cheap raw resources and labour that is so valuable to their economy and big companies... and don't be fooled... it has nothing to do with skin colour... they don't care if it is a black man in a mine in africa or a white Russian guy in a mine in the urals... and they don't give a shit if you live or die.

    Corruption does not keep them poor... unfair trade practises by the west keep them poor and under developed because they stifle development just like they are currently doing openly with Russia and China... they even make up excuses to impose political sanctions on Russia... and it is all to stop Russia from developing economically so it is less likely to become more of a military threat to the US.

    If Russia continues to deal with these corrupt states, sooner than later Russia will become as much corrupt as these African, Asian countries.

    I agree 100% but you have it all ass backwards... Russia will become as corrupt and as evil as the west if it continues to play the west at the wests game because you will get sick of being on the losing side and eventually start doing to them what they have been doing to you all these centuries.

    Russias only real hope is to realise that dealing with rich customers doesn't mean big profits for Russia... the west didn't get rich and powerful by being generous or being nice or fair. Russia can trade on an equal basis with Africa and Asia and central and south america and both Russia and the countries it trades with can develop and grow and become more powerful... and the west is scared to death... China is already doing this and is very successful... recently May went to Africa offering loans for investments and criticised Chinas offer to build power stations and roads claiming China was threatening Africa with a mountain of debt they will never pay their way out of... the west should know all about that... that is what the IMF was for.

    The fact was the Chinese were offering fair trade and to build infrastructure in Africa and it was the UK offering debt... the west lives on debt... that is the basis of the wealth of the west... that and basically raping the known world of resources and very low prices...


    They envy Russia, not necessarily hate.

    No... it is hate... it is racial... a US offical called Clapper or Crapper or something said, and this was reported widely in the US media, that Russians are genetically disposed to being bad... they can't help it... they just do bad things to people.

    If he had said that about Asians or black people or gay people he would have lost his job, but he said it about Russians and everyone just nodded...

    Forget the west Russia... you can actually do much better...

    When I see Russians sucking up to the west I think of abused women in hospital after being beaten by husbands or boyfriends saying they fell down the stairs again... if only they weren't so clumsy... but he loves me and he said he is sorry and he will never do it again... gets to the point where you have to say the guy needs to be shot... but so does the woman for letting him do that over and over again...

    European culture is more or less the same. But imagine African, Hindu etc. Morally bankrupt, intellectually pauper. There is no common ground with rich Russian culture.

    Wow... that is actually very European of you to dismiss the cultures of an entire continent and say it has no value... the main problem of the west was that while it started out pinching things from other cultures... like basic maths for a start... that eventually it starts to see itself as the centre of the universe and just a little more civilised than anyone else... but look to America to see where that is headed... gay black and asian females getting positions on government boards because there were too many white men there... it doesn't matter that they don't know what they are doing... by adding diversity you are making things better right?

    The Borg likely started out as a bit of cybernetic augmentation too...

    For example, is giving to a family member a job in in preference to others in a non family business or state organisation corruption or not? Depends where you are.

    You mean like Hilary Clinton getting a job in the US government when Bill was President, or all the Trumps now working in the US government?

    In October 2016, it was reported that Saab, among other manufacturers, had been sent an informal request-for-information query, resuming a new competition for a single-engine fighter to replace the Indian Air Force's Soviet-built MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft. Saab had already submitted an "unsolicited bid".

    I am totally biased, but if the job is to replace the MiG-21 in the short range interceptor role and the MiG-27 in the short range strike role then the relatively cheap MiG-29M2 would be perfect and could probably be produced in India right now... they already made MiG-29s there anyway, and there would be future growth potential with systems and equipment developed for the MiG-35.

    But, no, lets add a completely new type that has no commonality with anything they have ever operated before...
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:03 am

    They envy Russia, not necessarily hate.

    If you see someone fall in the street... you can go to help, or you can laugh out loud and upload the video to youtube to add insult to injury... the west is voting for sanctions against Russia, they have taken away its voting rights in european organisations... they don't want to be like you... they want you to be like them and do everything that Brussels and Paris and London and Washington tell you to do...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:49 am

    ..the relatively cheap MiG-29M2 would be perfect and could probably be produced in India right now... they already made MiG-29s there anyway, and there would be future growth potential with systems and equipment developed for the MiG-35.
    True, but if much poorer Malaysia & Indonesia can operate both Su--30/-27s & F-18/-16s, Egyptian, Romanian & Slovak AFs MiG-21s & F-16s/Rafals, Iranian AF F-4/-14s & MiG-29s, & the Iraqi AF of 1991 with Mirages & MiGs, it won't be w/o precedent for India to get them:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Malaysian_Armed_Forces#Royal_Malaysian_Air_Force
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Indonesian_Air_Force#Current_inventory
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Egyptian_Air_Force
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Air_Force#Current_inventory
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_Air_Force#Current_inventory
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Iranian_Air_Force#Multirole_fighters
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Air_Force#Inventory_in_the_1991_Gulf_War

    They don't want to be seen only as in Russia's camp, so aside from the military logistics, training & economics, political considerations r at play here.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:42 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:True, but if much poorer Malaysia & Indonesia can operate both Su--30/-27s & F-18/-16s, Egyptian, Romanian & Slovak AFs MiG-21s & F-16s/Rafals, Iranian AF F-4/-14s & MiG-29s, & the Iraqi AF of 1991 with Mirages & MiGs, it won't be w/o precedent for India to get them

    Yes there are countries who are operating both Western and Russian fighters, but that does not mean it is wise to do so.

    Operation of both kinds is mainly due to political situation and historical background.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:01 pm

    The advantage of having both is that they can also be used for adversary training & evaluation, lasting years, of which 1s r better for their requirements. Their enemies may be operating similar planes & it's always useful to know ur enemy & his capabilities, instead of putting all eggs in 1 basket.
    India liked the Su-30s & ordered more; now their AF flies the same birds as China.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:26 pm

    Those are not the same birds as China. There is not only the difference in the designation of the name of the jet, but the fact they are built by two different facilities. Irkutsk did the Su-30MKI while KnAAPO did Su-30MK. They also house different systems altogether.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:48 pm

    Yes, not exactly the same, but with similar flight characteristics & specs.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:59 pm

    Nope, not even that.

    Try to learn electronics, how they work, and what is actually integrated.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:23 pm

    True, but if much poorer Malaysia & Indonesia can operate both

    Not saying they can't... saying they should not...

    They don't want to be seen only as in Russia's camp, so aside from the military logistics, training & economics, political considerations r at play here.

    The only benefits from diversity is to get access to new weapons or to get the support of a major power or to prevent the situation where they might be sanctioned into submission because their suppliers wont supply spare parts.

    Russia has never refused to support their weapons before and is rather unlikely to do so in the future... in fact more often than not they have allowed Indian production which means no sanctions are possible.

    The US will support India when it suits its interests... like when India is acting against China... which is likely, or when India is acting against Russia... not so likely in the general scheme of things.

    The point is that the US lets you down and is a very unreliable partner... ask Argentina after the Falklands war, or the Shia majority in Iraq just after Desert Storm when Bush snr called for them to rise up against Saddam and then watched as he slaughtered them without lifting a finger to help because he realised if they won they were pro Iran and not pro US or Saudi Arabia. Or indeed the Kurds in Syria.

    It wont be long before the US starts to realise India is going to grow like China is now and will become another problem they have to deal with... Right now they are playing China and India against each other in the hope of damaging both like they did with China and the Soviet Union...

    What they have not worked out is that to be in the US camp... it is not enough to buy up old crap like F-16s or new crap like P-8s... they have to cut all ties to Russia too... look at eastern europe and former soviet states the US is "friends with".

    The advantage of having both is that they can also be used for adversary training & evaluation, lasting years, of which 1s r better for their requirements. Their enemies may be operating similar planes & it's always useful to know ur enemy & his capabilities, instead of putting all eggs in 1 basket.
    India liked the Su-30s & ordered more; now their AF flies the same birds as China.

    Seems good on paper, but what happens in combat if they introduce 126 F-16s are their MRCA fighter and during combat with Pakistan they find they can't tell between the silhouette of a Pakistani F-16 and an Indian F-16?

    They don't seem to have a real IADS yet so IFF is going to be patchy.

    Nope, not even that.

    Try to learn electronics, how they work, and what is actually integrated.

    To be fair from a distance in not great light so you can't see the markings an Su-30MKI will look rather similar to a Su-30MKK.

    But also to be fair, when the Su-30MKI was put into production for India it was not an ancient plane from the 1970s already in widespread use by an enemy like the F-16 is.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:38 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The advantage of having both is that they can also be used for adversary training & evaluation, lasting years, of which 1s r better for their requirements. Their enemies may be operating similar planes & it's always useful to know ur enemy & his capabilities, instead of putting all eggs in 1 basket.

    I don't expect the US to sell just one or two copies of the weapon for you to evaluate. If you want to buy, you have to spend huge sum of money for large batch of weapons together with numerous services. These money can be use for more profitable things.

    And there are many ways to access and evaluate the information of enemy's weapons. That's why intelligence agency and spies are created for.

    Tsavo Lion wrote: India liked the Su-30s & ordered more; now their AF flies the same birds as China.

    No.

    Sukhoi MKI/SM and Sukhoi MKK/MK2V/M2 have considerable differences.

    For example the radar. MKK radar does not have dynamic shifted phase and have to rotate the whole antenna to steer the beam. While MKI does have and therefore it has a 270 degree of vision.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:46 pm

    Any advantage India gets from operating Su-30s or F-16s because an enemy uses it means the reverse is true as well... Indias enemies will be better able to cope with Su-30s and F-16s in Indian service.

    More importantly during real combat your troops and crews will get confused... lots of lend lease fighter planes were shot down on the eastern front by the formidable air defences because they didn't recognise them as being Soviet planes... mistakes are easy to make at the best of times let alone in a conflict under pressure...

    Besides, F-16s don't really add a new capability for India... and even if they did... the US Congress is going to be telling them when they can use them and when they cannot... not ideal for something they are going to be paying for... maybe if the US gave them some free planes they could tell them when they can use them and indeed who they can sell them to when they are done with them.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:23 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Nope, not even that.
    Try to learn electronics, how they work, and what is actually integrated.
    Their specs r similar enough, & the Chinese will upgrade their birds sooner or later:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK#Specifications_(Su-30MKK)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK#Airborne_radar_2
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI#Specifications_(Su-30MKI)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI#Avionics

    Besides, F-16s don't really add a new capability for India...
    They could redesign them like the Japanese did with their F-2, with better performance. With tech. transfer, they'll be free to use them as they see fit.
    More importantly during real combat your troops and crews will get confused... Seems good on paper, but what happens in combat if they introduce 126 F-16s are their MRCA fighter and during combat with Pakistan they find they can't tell between the silhouette of a Pakistani F-16 and an Indian F-16?
    Doctrine & tactics also play a role when using the same models against each other. Most engagements r BVR, so the IFF isn't done visually. If they do get close, it won't be like a swarm of dozens of F-16s with the same paint job & markings making it impossible to distinguish friend from foe. Greek & Turkish fighters incl. their F-16s had dogfights before. https://theaviationist.com/2015/12/30/aegean-sea-dogfight/
    I don't expect the US to sell just one or two copies of the weapon for you to evaluate. If you want to buy, you have to spend huge sum of money for large batch of weapons together with numerous services. These money can be use for more profitable things.
    They'll be used as combat & training planes & as stop gaps intil something better is ordered. Taiwan & Israel been also operating American & French designed fighters for years at the same time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Air_Force#Current_inventory
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force#Fixed_wing_combat_types

    AFAIK, the Israelis aren't afraid of shooting down their own Mirages, Kfirs, & F-15s/-16s when encountering Arab AFs Mirages & F-15s/-16s.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15E_Strike_Eagle#Israel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Israel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Egypt
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force#Aircraft


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total
    medo
    medo

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    Post  medo on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:06 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Their specs r similar enough, & the Chinese will upgrade their birds sooner or later:

    I doubt Chinese will upgrade their Su-30MKK, they serve well as they are and China already produce more advanced J-16.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:32 am

    If they want to keep them up to date in 10-15+ years, they will; "deep modernization" isn't only done in Russia!

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