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    How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

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    GarryB
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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:04 am

    The inability to control roll and yaw channels when flying at low speeds because the engines are located close to each other.

    Ummm... it contradicts itself... this problem with the PAK FA design is a stupid comment when in the paragraphs before this the article states:

    The engines are also placed at an acute angle relative to the vertical plane, allowing thrust vectoring – an area in which Sukhoi excels – in the longitudinal, transverse and travel channels. The engine nozzles point outwards, which transfers a significant portion of the control of the aircraft to them even at low altitudes. This considerably improves flight safety.

    So with the engines placed far enough apart for there to be a large weapon bay between them how can the engines be located too close together?

    The Typhoon and Rafale have engines that are too close together for roll control at low speeds using thrust vector control, but they don't have thrust vector control so it doesn't matter for them.

    Like the Flanker and the Fulcrum the PAK FA has spaced engines and is perfectly able to use thrust vectoring for roll and yaw control at low speeds or no speeds in stalls and super stalls (ie flying backwards).

    The curved shape of the air intake duct requires an increase in their length, and therefore, the mass of the airplane.

    The tiny increase in weight is totally unimportant compared with the reduction in RCS by not having the engine visible to enemy radar.

    The inability to ensure the “vanishing” of the aircraft during supercritical angles of attack.

    No stealth aircraft ever created is stealthy from all angles... the fact that the PAK FA might not be so stealthy when nose up at 120 degrees is irrelevant... it is not going to remain in that position long enough for an enemy to get a missile lock and fire a missile to hit the target... when the PAK FA drops its nose and continues normal flight the RCS will drop down to stealthy figures and the missile and enemy aircraft will lose radar lock... and the datalink between the launch aircraft and the missile will be an active radar signal the PAK FAs L band wing mounted radar can detect and track.

    The use of fixed keels with rudders requires increasing the required area of the vertical stabiliser to provide directional stability at supersonic flight conditions, which leads to an increase in weight tail, and hence, the aircraft in general, and to an increase in drag.

    the vertical tail surfaces on the PAK FA are tiny compared with the F-22 and F-35.

    What else are they going to complain about... have they painted it the wrong colour?


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:27 am

    "PAK-FA weaknesses

    The paper also lists some of the disadvantages of the aircraft:

    The inability to control roll and yaw channels when flying at low speeds because the engines are located close to each other.
    The curved shape of the air intake duct requires an increase in their length, and therefore, the mass of the airplane.
    The inability to ensure the “vanishing” of the aircraft during supercritical angles of attack.
    The use of fixed keels with rudders requires increasing the required area of the vertical stabiliser to provide directional stability at supersonic flight conditions, which leads to an increase in weight tail, and hence, the aircraft in general, and to an increase in drag."



    Those are not PAKFA Weaknesses... That very paragraph is from the PAKFA patent and it refers to F-22. Not PAKFA.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Berkut on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:29 pm

    Indeed. One has to be particularly thick in the head thinking that was T-50 weaknesses... It is very clear in the patent that is F-22's design weakness according to Sukhoi. T-50's engines are like super close man! Rolling Eyes

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  jhelb on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:42 am

    Berkut wrote:Indeed. One has to be particularly thick in the head thinking that was T-50 weaknesses... It is very clear in the patent that is F-22's design weakness according to Sukhoi. T-50's engines are like super close man! Rolling Eyes

    It seems to me that the PAK-FA will be a hunter killer. It will detect a F22/F35 at BVR with its powerful radars and then defeat them in a WVR combat.

    The RuAF will in all likelihood not use the PAK-FA for SEAD/DEAD operations.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:18 am

    jhelb wrote:It seems to me that the PAK-FA will be a hunter killer. It will detect a F22/F35 at BVR with its powerful radars and then defeat them in a WVR combat.

    T-50 will defeat and outcompete F-22, it is a sure thing. But, the hunter killer thing is, well, Russia already has a much better hunter killer, that is MiG-31.

    MiG-31's Zaslon nose radar can use L-band to completely strip off the stealth cloak of F-22. The limit in size of a nose radar (1,4 metre diameter) means single MiG-31 radar has quite low angular resolution. But MiG-31 fix that problem by synchronize many Zaslon radars into a local system, and use distance measuring to detect the location of the target.

    In more details, although angular resolution is poor, but MiG-31 Zaslon can accurately measure the distance between it and the target. Each MiG-31 measures its own different distance, and transfer all the data to the computer via the synchronized local communication system. And then we have a mathematics problem of finding a point which is xxx kilometers from radar A1, yyy kilometers from radar A2, zzz kilometers from radar A3... and the solution of the math is the cross-point of the spherical surfaces with center A1, A2, A3... and radius xxx, yyy, zzz...

    By using that method, MiG-31 can accurately detect the location of F-22 despite the low angular resolution of the radar.

    A group of MiG-31 synchronized into a local system can scan the aerospace of half of the Indochina peninsula.

    And I bet you already know other spectacular characteristics of MiG-31.




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    Russia's New Fighter Uses Long-Range Weapons To Overcome Its Weaknesses

    Post  nemrod on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:14 am


    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-new-fighter-uses-long-range-weapons-to-overcome-1725502172


    Russia's New Fighter Uses Long-Range Weapons To Overcome Its Weaknesses

    Russia’s fledgling Sukhoi T-50 fighter, also known as the PAK-FA, continues to waddle through development even though the demand for the aircraft may turn out to be less than stellar. Nonetheless, Sukhoi hopes to integrate a wide array of weapons onto their new jet, including everything from supersonic cruise missiles to the latest available medium range air-to-air missiles. This is all shown in a visually explosive chart that was released by Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation in a recent tweet.

    Regardless of the T-50’s future prospects of being fielded in large numbers, you can see that many of the weapons on the chart above are beyond those needed for the basic air-to-air or air-to-ground mission sets. By looking at this menu of destruction, standoff attack is clearly a main tactic envisioned for the stealthy jet.

    According to the graphic, the T-50/PAK-FA will carry long-range missiles that are built to destroy the enemy’s airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft and key surface assets capable of similar duties at great range. This includes the Izdelie 810, the Kh-58USHke, Kh-35UE and the Brahmos-NG among others. The first three of which are designed to fit inside the aircraft’s weapons bays.

    The fact that the PAK-FA can haul these missiles internally, keeping its radar cross-section at a minimum, is key as even its more moderate approach to low observability, at least compared with American and even emerging Chinese fighters, when combined with its supercruise ability (cruise beyond mach 1 without the use of gas-guzzling afterburners), is aimed at allowing it to get within launching distance of these key command and control and sensor assets without being successfully engaged. If anything else, this capability will make enemy fighter aircraft tasked with protecting high value, low density assets have to adapt their tactics to counter those of the T-50s, such as extending out farther from the dependents they are trying to protect. Such a move can result in other other tactical vulnerabilities and strategic deficits that can be exploited as a result.

    The U.S., by comparison, relies on the AIM-120 AMRAAM for its longest reaching air-to-air weapon, with even the new AIM-120D sporting a range that is said to be well less than the detection ranges that modern active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, like those on the F-15C, F-22 and F-35, can provide. Additionally, the networked battlespace can potentially offer targeting via third party sensors (AEW&C assets, AEGIS destroyers and cruisers) over many hundreds or miles in addition to that of even the best AESA radars used in U.S. fighter aircraft. These targets cannot be engaged as there is no missile in the U.S. inventory that can do so. Additionally, there is no anti-radiation or long-range anti-ship missile in the U.S. inventory that can fit within either the F-35 or the F-22’s weapons bays. As such, these advanced fighters have to do their bidding at closer distances to their targets than their Russian counterpart based on available weapons alone, or they would have to fight without their stealth advantage, slinging long-range weapons under their wings.

    This all adds up to an interesting intersection in air combat theory. On one hand, America’s more stealthy fighters should be able to carry their shorter-ranged air-to-air munitions closer to enemy targets than their competitors. At the same time, the best of both worlds is packing long-range standoff weaponry inside a very stealthy aircraft, as distance and the aircraft’s degree of low-observable treatment from certain angles equals its detectability range by a given enemy radar system. Extra weapons range therefore buys extra stealth, or in other words, it keeps the launch aircraft outside of the detection range of enemy sensors at closer ranges.

    This may not be a big issue for the U.S. today as America’s stealth technology and weaponry combo is adequate even against advanced enemy air defense systems, but as stealth shaping and materials become less effective due to developments in radar systems, processing power networking, being able to carry longer-range weapons internally would buy an weapon system time as far as its relevancy and effectiveness on the battlefield goes.

    The weapons range issue is more important for Russia than the U.S. and NATO because the west relies heavily on AEW&C assets for air combat supremacy, and even if the PAK-FA can be detected, it may not be able to be engaged within the distance that it can launch its long-range weaponry. Thus a supercruising PAK-FA showing up on radar briefly at great range may give an AEW&C aircraft crew awareness of its existence, but it will not kill the long-range missile that was launched from the PAK-FA during that moment in time. As such, the PAK-FA’s low observability, although far cruder than American stealth designs, will buy the jet extra undetectability at long-range so that they can get a long-range missiles successfully on their way towards key aircraft, surface targets and surface-to-air missile sites.

    In the end, even the most advanced fighter in the world is still enabled or handicapped by its available weaponry. The designers of the PAK-FA/T-50 are clearly aware of their own limitations and are using weaponry to exploit the aircraft’s strengths and de-emphasize its inherent weaknesses. A relevant, albeit far from ideal strategy when your aircraft is clearly at a low obseravability disadvantage.

    Still, this does not take into key factors like how reliable these weapons are or will be, when they will they be operational and how accurate the claims made about them by Russian manufacturers are. Not to mention their susceptibility to jamming and countermeasures.




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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Mike E on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:47 am

    This article makes me lol! so hard. FTA embarrasses themselves with every post. 

    And then the comments... Even better.

    They take the narrative of American technology superiority way too seriously. "Crude stealth" Says who?

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:07 am

    American Journal compares the 5th generation fighter T-50 and F-22A

    Ten years have passed since the F-22 Raptor Lockheed Martin's began to come into service in the US Air Force. He was named the most demonstrated his fighting qualities in the skies over Syria and Iraq. However, this machine is not used for a militant fighter for air superiority. But he was only a year ago, the destruction of the Soviet tank armada in the Fulda Gap, or to suppress the integrated air defense system of the modern enemy is planning its designers. Instead Raptor basically functions as a flying platform detection devices.

    However, the day will come when the F-22 will face an opponent who will have the chance to fight him on equal terms, and even win (although the chance for this small). Russia and China are hard at work on the creation of aircraft T-50 PAK FA and J-20. These two machines PAK FA is perhaps the most serious opponent. Despite the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia had somehow managed to keep more or less effective military-industrial base - although she now recalls only a pale shadow of its Soviet past.


    All in PAK FA says that this machine is in concept similar to the Raptor. This high-speed, high-altitude and low-profile fighter for air superiority. However, as might be expected, the Russian one paid more attention to the characteristics and less to others.

    A good example - stealth. The design of the T-50 is given much less stealth value in all ranges and angles. Instead, the designers focused on the invisible front part of it, because of what the aircraft on its telltale signs like a Pacman computer game of the same name. But the F-22 is more like a spider, if you look at it is not particularly closely. Stealth - is one aspect where Raptor has a huge advantage over the Russian plane.

    With regard to kinematics, there is the T-50 and F-22 are comparable - particularly when the PAK FA will have new engines. Mounted on it today engine called "Article 117" - a very decent, but eventually the plane will need to install a pilot engine "article 30", in order to fully harness the power of the airframe.

    Both aircraft are able to fly at supersonic speed. In the F-22 rate of slightly more than Mach number 1.8 (without afterburner), and PAK FA without the high pressure compressor can develop a speed of at least M = 1.6. Maximum operating altitude the F-22, 20 thousand meters, as well as the T-50. At the Raptor has a restrictive limit the maximum speed of M = 2.0, due to his lack of radar absorbing materials. I believe that the same red line will have the PAK FA.

    Although the F-22 has advantages in stealth characteristics, Russian ahead in maneuverability. T-50 is equipped with a three-dimensional thrust vector control, and says a lot about what he has advantages in terms of turning capacity. In Russian can also be mounted in a helmet display system. In addition, the PAK FA from day armed with rockets FAQ distance.

    Meanwhile, Raptor in 2017 were armed with a missile AIM-9X, and the Air Force, slowly overcoming the obstacles are to the creation of a helmet-mounted display system, which will be ready by 2020. Plus the fact that, given the state of the Russian economy, the PAK FA at this time is unlikely to be ready.

    As for the on-board electronics, then the F-22 will certainly be benefits in the form of a combination of sensors and pilot-vehicle interface. Russian can not boast of much success in creating a user-friendly cabins - just look at the cockpit of the MiG-29. But they are improving. In general, the detection devices and sensors of the two cars are about equal, although the Russian radar does pretty well, and they have an excellent system of electronic warfare.

    So, other things being equal, if the stealth will be a decisive factor, the PAK FA will be in an unenviable position. But if faith in the US Air Force stealth wrong, PAK FA will have the advantage. However, the war is by its own rules, and to predict its outcome is highly likely to be very difficult.


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:22 pm

    just a short question that would clarify to me if something is possible suppose we have a radar antenna any type you want can be seen the angle at wich the waves enter the antenna or clearly can you see from where was emitted the signal?

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:19 pm

    Very simply the signal emitted from the radar antenna into the radar dish is coded and the time it is emitted is recorded. When the dish is facing the right way and the return signal comes back its angle is recorded and based on the time and angle information the position of the object the return signal reflected from can be calculated.

    The shape of the dish and position of the transmitter/receiver are fixed and known so the angle the return signal arrives at allows a computation to work out target position.


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:05 am

    ok thinking of that ive have a idea upon you could detect the f22. as we know there is signal noise from the sun. this noise get under the f22. or better said in the back under the f22. then theyre reflect by air exacly into the f22 from wich theyre reflect to the far front of f22 where a passive radar waits and upon the angle they enter they create a specific phase shift signal in the circuit now all you have to do is to corelate continuous phases shift with the continous angles at wich the f22 reflect the waves as he approach target so here we are f22 is visible

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Book. on Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:08 pm

    F22 old design 1997 electronik the modular no

    Pakfa better data link EW radar engine sensor

    I think new hornet better electronik

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:19 pm

    alright seems here is no atention on this issue. in other words. seems seems noone take seriously but my point is that f22 is f...ed

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Hachimoto on Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:47 pm

    Book. wrote:F22 old design 1997 electronik the modular no

    Old design wth lol!


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:53 pm

    victor1985 wrote:alright seems here is no atention on this issue. in other words. seems seems noone take seriously but my point is that f22 is f...ed

    technology alone does not wins wars.. tactics are important too..

    An Ace pilot with good tactics in F-22 will defeat a good pilot in Pak-fa but poor tactics.
    This means that skills and tactics are superior to technology any day. So an Amateur in Pak-fa
    will be destroyed by a pro pilot in F-22.. and the same is true in the other way.

    But if pilots skills and tactics are the same?

    Then probably if what every side claim is true.. ie.. (F-22 more stealthy..and Pak-fa more maneuverable and better electronic warfare and better weapons)

    Then if each side claims are true..and is a duel 1 vs 1.. no AWACS..
    then the F-22 will be able to see first and shoot first.. but Pak-fa will be able to easily jam the missile..and cause it to miss.. And probably the F-22 will lose its stealth capabilities if needs to turn on its radars and guide the missile towards Pak-fa.. Allowing Pak-fa to get in a dog fight
    and more easily defeat the F-22.

    But because the F-22 have no infrared sensors.. and Pak-fa does.. in theory Pak-fa will be able
    to fight without turning on Radars ..and remain hidden for a longer time if facing frontally
    F-22..  So features wise , Pak-fa is a much more balanced and more all around combat plane.
    with superior maneuverability.  and Feature wise.. F-22 should be more stealthy and remain hidden for more time as long dont fire a missile.

    In a real war both planes will have AWACS support and Ground Radar support. If they fight for example near Japan or near Baltics. So the F-22 maybe will do the first shot and remain hidden.. but Pak-FA will see the missile and jam it and miss..  

    All said.. pilots kills been the same.. for the first few minutes , the F-22 should have an
    ambush advantage..in firing first.. but after few minutes it will become detected by IR sensors on PAk-fa and chased and defeated in forced to engage in a dogfight.

    The real threat of the F-22 is that they have ~256 and that Russia have ZERO  Pak-fa in active service. If Russia manage to get Pak-fa in numbers ,lets say 500.. it will really be a game changer and literary totally dominate any NATO coalition of airforces.. in combination with  Su-35 and SU-30s.

    All this scenarios does not include Patriot or S-400 help.. which will give a real advantage to the side who is invaded its territory..  S-400s in combination of Pantsirs will keep RUssia safe from any no fly zone.. More likely the only way you could see a Pak-FA vs F-22 fight is on neutral airspace..  in neutral waters.. Because invading a foreign nation with strong ground defenses is really dangerous and very risky ,even for stealth planes of any country. Even a manpad can be
    dangerous against a low flying stealth plane.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:15 am

    ok thinking of that ive have a idea upon you could detect the f22. as we know there is signal noise from the sun. this noise get under the f22. or better said in the back under the f22. then theyre reflect by air exacly into the f22 from wich theyre reflect to the far front of f22 where a passive radar waits and upon the angle they enter they create a specific phase shift signal in the circuit now all you have to do is to corelate continuous phases shift with the continous angles at wich the f22 reflect the waves as he approach target so here we are f22 is visible

    The noise from the sun is just that... noise.

    To detect redirected noise signals you would need to be able to tell the difference between direct noise and redirected noise... good luck with that.

    It would be rather easier just to detect the IR signature of the F-22.


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:55 am

    There was an interesting concept surfaced in 1970's RAND Study. called as "Stellar radar" It's basically a Bi-static radar but using stars and sun as its non-cooperative emitters.

    Nonetheless the theoritical groundwork of it (The paper also include mathematical equation for predicting performance) Showed that it might not be promising. Nonetheless it is one hell of interesting concept.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:58 am

    [quote="GarryB"][quote]ok thinking of that ive have a idea upon you could detect the f22. as we know there is signal noise from the sun. this noise get under the f22. or better said in the back under the f22. then theyre reflect by air exacly into the f22 from wich theyre reflect to the far front of f22 where a passive radar waits and upon the angle they enter they create a specific phase shift signal in the circuit now all you have to do is to corelate continuous phases shift with the continous angles at wich the f22 reflect the waves as he approach target so here we are f22 is visible [/quote]

    The noise from the sun is just that... noise.

    To detect redirected noise signals you would need to be able to tell the difference between direct noise and redirected noise... good luck with that.

    It would be rather easier just to detect the IR signature of the F-22.[/quote]
    look what the thing that i've said is very simple : we have waves reflected from f22 at angles now as far ive read any electromagnetic wave when is not see (by eye in visible waves or antenna in case of radio waves) at 90 angles the signal is less powerfull (think that your eyes cant see better to the sides than the center) so in case of f22 (because this is where i want to reach) you just need a radar that follows those bunches of low signal waves also think that if the plane would be in consecutive movement the waves will cause consecutive levels of signals so here we are

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:05 am

    [quote="Vann7"][quote="victor1985"]alright seems here is no atention on this issue. in other words. seems seems noone take seriously but my point is that f22 is f...ed [/quote]

    technology alone does not wins wars.. tactics are important too..

    An Ace pilot with good tactics in F-22 will defeat a good pilot in Pak-fa but poor tactics.
    This means that skills and tactics are superior to technology any day. So an Amateur in Pak-fa
    will be destroyed by a pro pilot in F-22.. and the same is true in the other way.

    But if pilots skills and tactics are the same?

    Then probably if what every side claim is true.. ie.. (F-22 more stealthy..and Pak-fa more maneuverable and better electronic warfare and better weapons)

    Then if each side claims are true..and is a duel 1 vs 1.. no AWACS..
    then the F-22 will be able to see first and shoot first.. but Pak-fa will be able to easily jam the missile..and cause it to miss.. And probably the F-22 will lose its stealth capabilities if needs to turn on its radars and guide the missile towards Pak-fa.. Allowing Pak-fa to get in a dog fight
    and more easily defeat the F-22.

    But because the F-22 have no infrared sensors.. and Pak-fa does.. in theory Pak-fa will be able
    to fight without turning on Radars ..and remain hidden for a longer time if facing frontally
    F-22..  So features wise , Pak-fa is a much more balanced and more all around combat plane.
    with superior maneuverability.  and Feature wise.. F-22 should be more stealthy and remain hidden for more time as long dont fire a missile.

    In a real war both planes will have AWACS support and Ground Radar support. If they fight for example near Japan or near Baltics. So the F-22 maybe will do the first shot and remain hidden.. but Pak-FA will see the missile and jam it and miss..  

    All said.. pilots kills been the same.. for the first few minutes , the F-22 should have an
    ambush advantage..in firing first.. but after few minutes it will become detected by IR sensors on PAk-fa and chased and defeated in forced to engage in a dogfight.

    The real threat of the F-22 is that they have ~256 and that Russia have ZERO  Pak-fa in active service. If Russia manage to get Pak-fa in numbers ,lets say 500.. it will really be a game changer and literary totally dominate any NATO coalition of airforces.. in combination with  Su-35 and SU-30s.

    All this scenarios does not include Patriot or S-400 help.. which will give a real advantage to the side who is invaded its territory..  S-400s in combination of Pantsirs will keep RUssia safe from any no fly zone.. More likely the only way you could see a Pak-FA vs F-22 fight is on neutral airspace..  in neutral waters.. Because invading a foreign nation with strong ground defenses is really dangerous and very risky ,even for stealth planes of any country.  Even a manpad can be
    dangerous against a low flying stealth plane. [/quote]


    a aircraft travell at 1000 kmh. divided by 60 minutes gives 16 km per minute make by a aircraft. a IR can see most far at 100 km. make the math. you will see that after spot the enemy aircraft with IR you have just few minutes (less than 10) to shoot the enemy plane thinking that after you and him fire the missile takes time to avoid and you have lesser time to make a plan so wouldnt be easyer to see it from 500 km i think yes

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:21 am

    [quote="Stealthflanker"]There was an interesting concept surfaced in 1970's RAND Study. called as "Stellar radar" It's basically a Bi-static radar but using stars and sun as its non-cooperative emitters.

    Nonetheless the theoritical groundwork of it (The paper also include mathematical equation for predicting performance) Showed that it might not be promising. Nonetheless it is one hell of interesting concept.[/quote]


    i've found it on internet. i didnt understanded a single thing. so i just let at this level as a concept

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:35 am

    look what the thing that i've said is very simple : we have waves reflected from f22 at angles now as far ive read any electromagnetic wave when is not see (by eye in visible waves or antenna in case of radio waves) at 90 angles the signal is less powerfull (think that your eyes cant see better to the sides than the center) so in case of f22 (because this is where i want to reach) you just need a radar that follows those bunches of low signal waves also think that if the plane would be in consecutive movement the waves will cause consecutive levels of signals so here we are

    What you have said is simple at its base level but is also fundamentally wrong.

    The surfaces of the F-22 and B-2 and F-35 are designed to redirect radar waves directed at them in directions other than that which the signals originally came.

    In other words you send a radar beam at the aircraft and it scatters the signal in other directions but not back at the origin.

    If you were to pick up a return signal you would have everything you need to locate the stealth aircraft... you know when you sent the signal, you know how fast it moves you know when you got a return signal and which direction it came from... with all that information you can locate in 3D space where the target is.

    With a noise signal emitted from the sun you have no idea how far away the target is... in fact the signal bouncing off the stealth aircraft is the same as the signals bouncing off everything else... the signal doesn't suddenly become bright red when it bounces off stealth targets, that is why they call it noise... one signal coming direct from the sun to your system and another signal coming off the rear tail surface of an F-22 look exactly the same and you can't tell them apart.


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  jhelb on Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:47 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:There was an interesting concept surfaced in 1970's RAND Study. called as "Stellar radar" It's basically a Bi-static radar but using stars and sun as its non-cooperative emitters.

    Nonetheless the theoritical groundwork of it (The paper also include mathematical equation for predicting performance) Showed that it might not be promising. Nonetheless it is one hell of interesting concept.

    I was thinking something like Russia using ground based EW systems to target hostile F-22, F 35 etc over Russian airspace if they are involved in a dogfight with Russian Su 30 or Su 35s.

    But then I suspect that ground based EW systems will also affect the Su 30s and Su 35s adversely.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:07 pm

    [quote="GarryB"][quote]look what the thing that i've said is very simple : we have waves reflected from f22 at angles now as far ive read any electromagnetic wave when is not see (by eye in visible waves or antenna in case of radio waves) at 90 angles the signal is less powerfull (think that your eyes cant see better to the sides than the center) so in case of f22 (because this is where i want to reach) you just need a radar that follows those bunches of low signal waves also think that if the plane would be in consecutive movement the waves will cause consecutive levels of signals so here we are [/quote]

    What you have said is simple at its base level but is also fundamentally wrong.

    The surfaces of the F-22 and B-2 and F-35 are designed to redirect radar waves directed at them in directions other than that which the signals originally came.

    In other words you send a radar beam at the aircraft and it scatters the signal in other directions but not back at the origin.

    If you were to pick up a return signal you would have everything you need to locate the stealth aircraft... you know when you sent the signal, you know how fast it moves you know when you got a return signal and which direction it came from... with all that information you can locate in 3D space where the target is.

    With a noise signal emitted from the sun you have no idea how far away the target is... in fact the signal bouncing off the stealth aircraft is the same as the signals bouncing off everything else... the signal doesn't suddenly become bright red when it bounces off stealth targets, that is why they call it noise... one signal coming direct from the sun to your system and another signal coming off the rear tail surface of an F-22 look exactly the same and you can't tell them apart.[/quote]


    first of all i've been talking about a passive radar who doesnt send anything just receive. then yes ofcourse i know what is the shape of f22 and why is used for. third you could have a idea how far is it by having two (at least) radars close on each other and triangulate the signal ofcourse the signal bouncing from aicraft is the same in terms of frecvency with many waves in the air but has another angle at which is reflected by plane and as far as i understanded every wave that doesnt hit a antenna at 90 angle produce a phase shift let me search on this on internet

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:12 pm

    [quote="jhelb"][quote="Stealthflanker"]There was an interesting concept surfaced in 1970's RAND Study. called as "Stellar radar" It's basically a Bi-static radar but using stars and sun as its non-cooperative emitters.

    Nonetheless the theoritical groundwork of it (The paper also include mathematical equation for predicting performance) Showed that it might not be promising. Nonetheless it is one hell of interesting concept.[/quote]

    I was thinking something like Russia using ground based EW systems to target hostile F-22, F 35 etc over Russian airspace if they are involved in a dogfight with Russian Su 30 or Su 35s.

    But then I suspect that ground based EW systems will also affect the Su 30s and Su 35s adversely.[/quote]
    yes ofcourse but with a corelated system in wich your aircrafts send into the back their position to the radar and by exclusion he see only the enemy you could find the f22. also point is that the radar could scan air before your aircrafts fly. and a such radar can be used with a s400 missile truck imagine a huge radar conected to the missiles battery

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:29 pm

    ok i've been searching here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_%28radio%29
    till now i found that viceversa is possible aka to shift a phase and obtain a different angle for the EM waves
    now is suppose the opossite is possible as well but you need a complex array of antennas disposed diferently i will read entire page

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