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    How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

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    medo

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  medo on Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:24 pm

    Considering that US fly with F-22 over Syria, I'm sure Russian technicians were with radar operators in Assad controlled parts of Syria and measure F-22 RCS in combat conditions and its fingerprints on radars.
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    nemrod

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  nemrod on Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:08 pm

    At first thx for your long document DrSomnath999, and your efforts.

    DrSomnath999 wrote:
    I)OLS-50 IRST (QWIP)

    Russian OLS -50 IRST is a farcry from previous shorter wavelength Irst as it can detect IR signatures of F22
    Any fighter with IRST could detect and engage every so-called stealth fighter, or stealth bomber.


    DrSomnath999 wrote:
    No doubt F22's aesa radar is technologically more advanced than russian Aesa radar....
    Who said you this ? What are your proofs ? At first first Auspower is a western think tank, and some Carloo Koop's statements are mere imbecile fantaisies. The AESA radar  Tikhomirov NIIP features are all classified, as the radar of the F-22. When the  Tikhomirov NIIP was designed, it was a time when Russia lack of money, but has a strong know-how to design a better radar. The Auspower article refer to informations given nearly 10 years ago. After 10 years, I leave you imagine how the things changed.
    I don't want to repeat what i've already said about the myth of BVR and air to air missiles. The fact that ex DOD secretary Robert Gates decided to cut the F-22 program. It was an initial order 700-800, he stopped the production to 188, and mostly closed all production lines. It indicates that  the high level of those who decided in Washington were well aware about the so-called performances of the F-22. Moreover most of russian fighters like Mig-29-33-35, Mig-31, Su-27-30-32-35, even the Mig-23 have the capacities to engage and to destroy every stealth fighter. No need Su-Pak FA.



    RTN wrote:
    max steel wrote:Chief designer of PAKFA, Davidenko  says the real RCS of F-22 is 0.4 meters.

    FAIL! He obviously never got any access to the F-22. How did he arrive at this figure? Has he shown the calculation? Just empty bluster.

    Russian engineers, technicians, and scientists are more cleaver than you can imagine. He asserted that because Russia, as China had already detected, and tracked the F-22. Russia have enough assets around Syria to say you what exactly is the F-22.
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    PAK-FA vs F/A-22

    Post  max steel on Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:13 pm

    Well Alexander Davidenko made a mockery of himself on other forums for sure . I guess he was exaggerating nothing else .  Laughing

    what TR1 said on keyforum : Assuming that that figure is the lowest frontal RCS figure is downright foolish IMO.

    Disinformation is nothing new for the Russian defense establishment.

    We have seen this figures quoted before, and they are as "accurate" now as they were then.  Very Happy




    Fights between the F-22A and the PAK-FA will be close, high, fast and lethal.  The F-22A may get ‘first look’ with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get ‘first look’ using its advanced infrared sensor.  Then, the engagement becomes a supersonic equivalent of the Battle of Britain or air combat over North Korea.  The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time.Though f-22 stealth isn't a problem for Russia .




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    GarryB

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:12 pm

    As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

    I rather suspect 0.4 is an average figure... something the US aircraft makers never mention... they prefer peak or ideal angle numbers which are often orders of magnitude smaller... and to be honest absurd.

    The purpose of the PAK FA is not to be stealthier than the F-22 or F-35, just to be stealthy enough that AMRAAM... both aircrafts main BVR weapon becomes useless at any range... with that being the case then it comes down to a turning knife fight... the PAK FA is optimised for manouver capability and should win such fights more often than not, so I think the Russians have a very good design that has been sensibly designed... not 0.0001 m^2 stealth that would cost trillions to buy and maintain...

    But with the tools to do the job... IIR guided AAMs, IRST, long wave radar etc etc.


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

    I rather suspect 0.4 is an average figure... something the US aircraft makers never mention... they prefer peak or ideal angle numbers which are often orders of magnitude smaller... and to be honest absurd.

    The purpose of the PAK FA is not to be stealthier than the F-22 or F-35, just to be stealthy enough that AMRAAM... both aircrafts main BVR weapon becomes useless at any range... with that being the case then it comes down to a turning knife fight... the PAK FA is optimised for manouver capability and should win such fights more often than not, so I think the Russians have a very good design that has been sensibly designed... not 0.0001 m^2 stealth that would cost trillions to buy and maintain...

    But with the tools to do the job... IIR guided AAMs, IRST, long wave radar etc etc.

    +

    Aggree, it does not matter both those values are not exactly true even tho i think the values provided by Sukhoi are much closer to the truth than this ridiculous labour simulated RCS of 0.00001m² what Lockheed Martin provided. The main goal like GarryB has pointed out is to overcome maximum engagement ranges of your opponent to while having advantage against 4th++ gen fighters or having at least a parrity among 5th gen fighter F-22 vs Su-50, however looking that Su-50 has IRST it has a huge advantage of getting lockon in BVR without emitting and therefore losing its advantage of staying undetected. The IRST for F-22 has been scrapped so it has and will remain this advantage and superior in maneuverability that is since decades the russian philosophy for air fighters and wars have shown that this outweights BVR combat by a significant margin.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

    I rather suspect 0.4 is an average figure... something the US aircraft makers never mention... they prefer peak or ideal angle numbers which are often orders of magnitude smaller... and to be honest absurd.

    The purpose of the PAK FA is not to be stealthier than the F-22 or F-35, just to be stealthy enough that AMRAAM... both aircrafts main BVR weapon becomes useless at any range... with that being the case then it comes down to a turning knife fight... the PAK FA is optimised for manouver capability and should win such fights more often than not, so I think the Russians have a very good design that has been sensibly designed... not 0.0001 m^2 stealth that would cost trillions to buy and maintain...

    But with the tools to do the job... IIR guided AAMs, IRST, long wave radar etc etc.
    i have a question for you:
    every stealth plane no matter become visible in IR from very long distance. about ~100 km. so the plane purely has no time to launch his rockets againts targets because he will be aquired from long range by IR. what chances has such a plane? most missiles on plane have range of most better 30 km. but he will be aquire from 100 km. he has no time to launch his missile.
    are all tell me that in the wars in gulf in 1992 serbia 1998 afghanistan and irak again this countryes didn't have any land based IR IRST IIR or whatever ? even in visible range at night would not be a problem to aquire target because of the flame. rockets are vulnerable to this kind of measures. those countryes didn't have any new tehnologies like lock on to target in IR , visible camera and so on and they based only on radar ?
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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  medo on Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:47 pm

    Don't forget, that even Su-30SM and Su-35 have good chances against F-22 and F-35, considering that they have very potent ECM equipment, which will effectively jam all AMRAAMs launched against them. In dogfight stealth doesn't play a role and Su-30SM and Su-35 with TVC are no worse in dogfight than F-22, specially Su-35.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:00 am

    this is my point too. does not worth to have a stealth plane as long as his missiles are visible and jammable. and another thing that i dont get it is why land forces are struggeling to make a anti plane missile as long as they can make a anti missile system. meaning to destroy the missiles that are comming from aircraft instead of destroing the aircraft itself. after all the US pilots arent kamikaze and they will simply launch the rocket and if they miss they`ll return to base. only problem is when a aircraft has launched a rocket is hard to reach that rocket. and video of rocket cant be jammable. also a point is that US strategy is based on satellites. jam that satellites or make a artificial fog and their planes would walk in blind.
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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:40 am

    The IRST for F-22 has been scrapped so it has and will remain this advantage and superior in maneuverability that is since decades the russian philosophy for air fighters and wars have shown that this outweights BVR combat by a significant margin.

    The problem is that most people think the F-22 and the PAK FA will be the same... ie the PAK FA will be an F-22ski.

    The f-22 is a long range sniper that will operate at high altitude at supersonic speed firing AMRAAMs at max range shooting down the enemies air force... its altitude and speed will make it able to reach further and faster with its missiles, while putting any missiles fired in its direction at a huge disadvantage having to climb and attack a high speed high energy target.

    It doesn't have IRST because it doesn't want IRST it is for shooting down 4th gen and older fighters and aircraft.... because it expects to be able to keep using its radar as much as it likes over enemy territory and for large long range SAMs to be taken down by cruise missile already.

    the PAK FA has IRST and long range IR guided missiles and L band radars because they know their enemy has stealth aircraft. PAK FA is a stealth fighter hunter. Which is why they don't need 1,000 PAK FAs... probably 250 would be too many even assuming the F-35 gets into service in the numbers they propose because the F-35 will struggle against the Su-35 let alone the PAK FA...

    i have a question for you:
    every stealth plane no matter become visible in IR from very long distance. about ~100 km. so the plane purely has no time to launch his rockets againts targets because he will be aquired from long range by IR. what chances has such a plane? most missiles on plane have range of most better 30 km. but he will be aquire from 100 km. he has no time to launch his missile.

    The F-22 was a plane for the 1980s and 1990s at most... it didn't matter if it could be detected at long range with IRST because it would be operating at high altitude and high speed firing late model AMRAAMs to 100km or so. The fact that a MiG-29SMT might detect the super cruising F-22 at 90km ignores the fact that the F-22 would have detected the MiG-29 at about 200km with its radar and would have manouvered into a position to attack the MiG-29 at max range from the rear where possible... remember an advantage of flying high and at supersonic speed is that you can move around a lot very quickly. Against an enemy whose air defence network is being broken with cruise missile attacks taking down large SAMs and major radars and communcations centres and power plants the MiG-29 controllers will be in serious disarray... note we are talking about small countries like Serbia or Iraq rather than the Soviet Union.

    What has changed is that the IADS in Russia is rather more robust and 20 years of development of IRSTs and long range IR guided missiles and radar technology has eroded the screen the F-22 once hid behind. Now that AMRAAM is not a high probability killer against targets that have competent jammers the likelyhood is that even a MiG-29SMT could get close and with modern capable IIR guided short range missiles would have a better than average chance of getting a kill.

    Remember in the 1990s the Germans got their hands on MiG-29s and even when fitted with the long range centreline fuel tank that limited manouver capability found helmet mounted sights changed the way the game was played... notice the rapid introduction of the AIM-9X and helmet mounted sights?

    Also notice the F-22 does not have helmet mounted sights for the Sidewinder it carries... if it needs it... it is probably dead... stealth wont stop 30mm cannon shells.

    are all tell me that in the wars in gulf in 1992 serbia 1998 afghanistan and irak again this countryes didn't have any land based IR IRST IIR or whatever ? even in visible range at night would not be a problem to aquire target because of the flame. rockets are vulnerable to this kind of measures. those countryes didn't have any new tehnologies like lock on to target in IR , visible camera and so on and they based only on radar ?

    Not just any IRST will spot stealth aircraft and being able to spot it is not enough... you have to have something that can actually shoot it down... which they didn't.

    and another thing that i dont get it is why land forces are struggeling to make a anti plane missile as long as they can make a anti missile system.

    Both TOR and Pantsir-SM are designed to shoot down weapons including missiles, rockets, and bombs.

    The thing is that it is far more efficient to shoot down one Apache Helicopter than it is to hit the 16 Hellfire missiles it might be carrying. A unit of 4 Apaches would have 64 Hellfires to shoot down... track and shoot down 64 targets or 4?

    It has always been a weakness of stealth aircraft that they are limited in numbers of weapons because to retain stealth they have to be carried internally... and as such a reason why planes like Su-35 and MiG-35 make sense to build even today... sometimes jammers and lots of missiles is more useful than stealth.


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  max steel on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:32 am

    garry you forgot to add nuclear bombs . Germans made first nuclear bomb for them . After the end of ww2 all the nazi scientists were taken to usa . hitler govt rank holders were given similar positions of responsibility in NATO in 1945 . Same role different countries .
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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:53 am

    garry you forgot to add nuclear bombs . Germans made first nuclear bomb for them .

    Actually it was a real melting pot of Poles, French, and many other European immigrants that created the bomb... and I might add a Kiwi made a significant contribution to the whole concept in the form of Sir Earnest Rutherford who split the atom.... Smile



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    Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy

    Post  nemrod on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:36 pm

    http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/01/16/patent_analysis_shows_how_pak-fa_differs_from_f-22_in_air_combat_philos_32309.html


    Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy

    The PAK-FA patent document published by Russia’s Federal Service for Intellectual Property shows the fifth generation stealth aircraft’s design is heavily influenced by low radar visibility requirements. At the same time, the Russians are prepared to sacrifice some stealth in their quest for super maneuverability and excellent flight characteristics.

    The aim of the invention, say the patent papers, is to provide an aircraft having low radar visibility, super maneuverability at high angles of attack (close to an astounding 90 degrees), and simultaneously preserving high aerodynamic efficiency at subsonic speeds.

    Creating an aircraft that is capable of performing tasks in a wide range of altitudes and flight speeds and also has a low radar signature is a technical challenge, the Russians admit. “All these requirements are contradictory, and the creation of an airplane that meets these requirements represents a compromise.”

    On the radar screens

    The papers claim that the intention of the designers is to reduce the radar cross-section (RCS) of the aircraft to an “average figure of 0.1-1 square metre”. At this range the aircraft appears like a bird on enemy radar and becomes difficult – though not impossible – to spot.

    The Sukhoi compares well with the American F-22 stealth fighter which aviation experts believe has an RCS of 0.1 square metre. (The actual figure is classified) Fourth generation fighters such as the Sukhoi-27/30 and F-15E have an RCS in the range of 10-15 square metres.

    Reducing the radar visibility of the aircraft is achieved through a combination of design and technology, in particular by shaping the contours of the airframe.

    According to Piotr Butowski of Jane’s International Defence Review, “Some openings and slots on the airframe’s surface – such as the boundary-layer bleeds on the sides of the air intakes and the openings on the upper fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit – are covered with a thick grid, featuring a mesh of less than one quarter of the wavelength of a search radar, which reduces the reflections from these uneven surfaces. Gaps between the airframe elements are filled with conducting sealants, while the glazing of the cockpit canopy is metallised.

    “The surfaces of the PAK-FA’s own five radar arrays are also angled off from the vertical plane, helping to ‘deflect’ enemy radar signals. The covers of the radar arrays are selective, letting through their own signals, but blocking other frequencies. Additionally, the array compartments are edged with radar-absorbing ‘curtains’ to reduce possible leaks of these amplified signals.”

    Versatile aircraft

    The PAK-FA’s two engines are placed apart in isolated pods, creating space for a large cargo compartment in between. The air intakes are located further apart in respect to the vertical and horizontal planes than the engines, creating a curvature that hides the compressor and reduces the radar signature of the aircraft from the front.

    The engines are also placed at an acute angle relative to the vertical plane, allowing thrust vectoring – an area in which Sukhoi excels – in the longitudinal, transverse and travel channels. The engine nozzles point outwards, which transfers a significant portion of the control of the aircraft to them even at low altitudes. This considerably improves flight safety.

    The movable airfoil above and in front of the engine air inlets is a unique feature of the PAK-FA, and is typical of Russian ingenuity in airframe design. The airfoils can rotate downwards around their rear edge. Similar to wing slats, they assist control when the aircraft is at high angles of attack. The air intakes are located on each side of the fuselage and they are bevelled in two planes in order to maintain flow even at high angles of attack.

    PAK-FA weaknesses

    The paper also lists some of the disadvantages of the aircraft:

       The inability to control roll and yaw channels when flying at low speeds because the engines are located close to each other.
       The curved shape of the air intake duct requires an increase in their length, and therefore, the mass of the airplane.
       The inability to ensure the “vanishing” of the aircraft during supercritical angles of attack.
       The use of fixed keels with rudders requires increasing the required area of the vertical stabiliser to provide directional stability at supersonic flight conditions, which leads to an increase in weight tail, and hence, the aircraft in general, and to an increase in drag.


    Why balance is the key

    Comparing the PAK-FA with the F-22 Raptor or F-35 Lightning II is a difficult task because most of the specs of these cutting edge aircraft are highly classified. Still, going by available data, the Russian aircraft doesn’t look as stealthy as the $420 million F-22.

    The F-22’s stealth advantage doesn’t seem to worry the Russians. For, the PAK-FA embraces an entirely different combat philosophy where super maneuverability is considered a vital weapon. In contrast, the Americans have thrown all their eggs into the stealth basket, relying on near invisibility to strike at targets. The idea is to have “first look/first shot/first kill” air dominance capability. The aim – in reality hope – is to see the enemy first while avoiding detection.

    However, hope is a poor substitute for preparation. The Russian view is that it never hurts to have dogfighting abilities. At some point stealth aircraft will have to close in for the kill and that’s when a knife fight is inevitable. That’s also when super maneuverability comes into play. Slow, ponderous and poorly armed stealth aircraft such as the F-35 are likely to be clubbed to death in a fight with the PAK-FA.

    Plus, new radars are on their way which can detect stealth aircraft. At any rate stealth is not really an invisibility cloak as the American manufacturers and war planners are pitching it. The 1999 downing of the American F-117 stealth fighter by a highly motivated and well-trained Serbian anti-aircraft battery was a huge slap in the face of the American stealth industry.

    The Serbians used a 1960s vintage – yet highly advanced – Russian S-125 Neva/Pechora surface to air missile conjointly with a P18 metre band radar. They were able to bring down the F-117 within 18 seconds of detection – a stark example of the vulnerability of stealth aircraft.

    It will take the wars of the future to deliver the verdict on which philosophy is better – total stealth or the Russian insistence on super maneuverability. In the meantime, Russian and Indian Air Force pilots can’t wait to get their hands on what promises to be a fighter pilot’s dream.

    They’ll have to wait a bit longer: according to the Russian National Armament Programme, 60 PAK-FA fighters will be delivered between 2016 and 2020.




    PS: I wanted to add this post into Pak Fa thread, but I hesitated, because the Thread related news, and not debate. Here are arguments, against Pak Fa and how SU-50 differs of the F-22. As Iam not a great fan of this aircraft, and overall all so-called stealth aircrafts, I try to bring as better as I can arguments to justify why SU-50 is a russian's mistake. I don't know if this fighter will have the same SU-11's fate, but its overall capacities seem to me dubious. If you believe this thread is not in the good area, feel free to move it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:04 am

    The inability to control roll and yaw channels when flying at low speeds because the engines are located close to each other.

    Ummm... it contradicts itself... this problem with the PAK FA design is a stupid comment when in the paragraphs before this the article states:

    The engines are also placed at an acute angle relative to the vertical plane, allowing thrust vectoring – an area in which Sukhoi excels – in the longitudinal, transverse and travel channels. The engine nozzles point outwards, which transfers a significant portion of the control of the aircraft to them even at low altitudes. This considerably improves flight safety.

    So with the engines placed far enough apart for there to be a large weapon bay between them how can the engines be located too close together?

    The Typhoon and Rafale have engines that are too close together for roll control at low speeds using thrust vector control, but they don't have thrust vector control so it doesn't matter for them.

    Like the Flanker and the Fulcrum the PAK FA has spaced engines and is perfectly able to use thrust vectoring for roll and yaw control at low speeds or no speeds in stalls and super stalls (ie flying backwards).

    The curved shape of the air intake duct requires an increase in their length, and therefore, the mass of the airplane.

    The tiny increase in weight is totally unimportant compared with the reduction in RCS by not having the engine visible to enemy radar.

    The inability to ensure the “vanishing” of the aircraft during supercritical angles of attack.

    No stealth aircraft ever created is stealthy from all angles... the fact that the PAK FA might not be so stealthy when nose up at 120 degrees is irrelevant... it is not going to remain in that position long enough for an enemy to get a missile lock and fire a missile to hit the target... when the PAK FA drops its nose and continues normal flight the RCS will drop down to stealthy figures and the missile and enemy aircraft will lose radar lock... and the datalink between the launch aircraft and the missile will be an active radar signal the PAK FAs L band wing mounted radar can detect and track.

    The use of fixed keels with rudders requires increasing the required area of the vertical stabiliser to provide directional stability at supersonic flight conditions, which leads to an increase in weight tail, and hence, the aircraft in general, and to an increase in drag.

    the vertical tail surfaces on the PAK FA are tiny compared with the F-22 and F-35.

    What else are they going to complain about... have they painted it the wrong colour?


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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:27 am

    "PAK-FA weaknesses

    The paper also lists some of the disadvantages of the aircraft:

    The inability to control roll and yaw channels when flying at low speeds because the engines are located close to each other.
    The curved shape of the air intake duct requires an increase in their length, and therefore, the mass of the airplane.
    The inability to ensure the “vanishing” of the aircraft during supercritical angles of attack.
    The use of fixed keels with rudders requires increasing the required area of the vertical stabiliser to provide directional stability at supersonic flight conditions, which leads to an increase in weight tail, and hence, the aircraft in general, and to an increase in drag."



    Those are not PAKFA Weaknesses... That very paragraph is from the PAKFA patent and it refers to F-22. Not PAKFA.
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    Berkut

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Berkut on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:29 pm

    Indeed. One has to be particularly thick in the head thinking that was T-50 weaknesses... It is very clear in the patent that is F-22's design weakness according to Sukhoi. T-50's engines are like super close man! Rolling Eyes
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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  jhelb on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:42 am

    Berkut wrote:Indeed. One has to be particularly thick in the head thinking that was T-50 weaknesses... It is very clear in the patent that is F-22's design weakness according to Sukhoi. T-50's engines are like super close man! Rolling Eyes

    It seems to me that the PAK-FA will be a hunter killer. It will detect a F22/F35 at BVR with its powerful radars and then defeat them in a WVR combat.

    The RuAF will in all likelihood not use the PAK-FA for SEAD/DEAD operations.
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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:18 am

    jhelb wrote:It seems to me that the PAK-FA will be a hunter killer. It will detect a F22/F35 at BVR with its powerful radars and then defeat them in a WVR combat.

    T-50 will defeat and outcompete F-22, it is a sure thing. But, the hunter killer thing is, well, Russia already has a much better hunter killer, that is MiG-31.

    MiG-31's Zaslon nose radar can use L-band to completely strip off the stealth cloak of F-22. The limit in size of a nose radar (1,4 metre diameter) means single MiG-31 radar has quite low angular resolution. But MiG-31 fix that problem by synchronize many Zaslon radars into a local system, and use distance measuring to detect the location of the target.

    In more details, although angular resolution is poor, but MiG-31 Zaslon can accurately measure the distance between it and the target. Each MiG-31 measures its own different distance, and transfer all the data to the computer via the synchronized local communication system. And then we have a mathematics problem of finding a point which is xxx kilometers from radar A1, yyy kilometers from radar A2, zzz kilometers from radar A3... and the solution of the math is the cross-point of the spherical surfaces with center A1, A2, A3... and radius xxx, yyy, zzz...

    By using that method, MiG-31 can accurately detect the location of F-22 despite the low angular resolution of the radar.

    A group of MiG-31 synchronized into a local system can scan the aerospace of half of the Indochina peninsula.

    And I bet you already know other spectacular characteristics of MiG-31.



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    nemrod

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    Russia's New Fighter Uses Long-Range Weapons To Overcome Its Weaknesses

    Post  nemrod on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:14 am


    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/russias-new-fighter-uses-long-range-weapons-to-overcome-1725502172


    Russia's New Fighter Uses Long-Range Weapons To Overcome Its Weaknesses

    Russia’s fledgling Sukhoi T-50 fighter, also known as the PAK-FA, continues to waddle through development even though the demand for the aircraft may turn out to be less than stellar. Nonetheless, Sukhoi hopes to integrate a wide array of weapons onto their new jet, including everything from supersonic cruise missiles to the latest available medium range air-to-air missiles. This is all shown in a visually explosive chart that was released by Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation in a recent tweet.

    Regardless of the T-50’s future prospects of being fielded in large numbers, you can see that many of the weapons on the chart above are beyond those needed for the basic air-to-air or air-to-ground mission sets. By looking at this menu of destruction, standoff attack is clearly a main tactic envisioned for the stealthy jet.

    According to the graphic, the T-50/PAK-FA will carry long-range missiles that are built to destroy the enemy’s airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft and key surface assets capable of similar duties at great range. This includes the Izdelie 810, the Kh-58USHke, Kh-35UE and the Brahmos-NG among others. The first three of which are designed to fit inside the aircraft’s weapons bays.

    The fact that the PAK-FA can haul these missiles internally, keeping its radar cross-section at a minimum, is key as even its more moderate approach to low observability, at least compared with American and even emerging Chinese fighters, when combined with its supercruise ability (cruise beyond mach 1 without the use of gas-guzzling afterburners), is aimed at allowing it to get within launching distance of these key command and control and sensor assets without being successfully engaged. If anything else, this capability will make enemy fighter aircraft tasked with protecting high value, low density assets have to adapt their tactics to counter those of the T-50s, such as extending out farther from the dependents they are trying to protect. Such a move can result in other other tactical vulnerabilities and strategic deficits that can be exploited as a result.

    The U.S., by comparison, relies on the AIM-120 AMRAAM for its longest reaching air-to-air weapon, with even the new AIM-120D sporting a range that is said to be well less than the detection ranges that modern active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, like those on the F-15C, F-22 and F-35, can provide. Additionally, the networked battlespace can potentially offer targeting via third party sensors (AEW&C assets, AEGIS destroyers and cruisers) over many hundreds or miles in addition to that of even the best AESA radars used in U.S. fighter aircraft. These targets cannot be engaged as there is no missile in the U.S. inventory that can do so. Additionally, there is no anti-radiation or long-range anti-ship missile in the U.S. inventory that can fit within either the F-35 or the F-22’s weapons bays. As such, these advanced fighters have to do their bidding at closer distances to their targets than their Russian counterpart based on available weapons alone, or they would have to fight without their stealth advantage, slinging long-range weapons under their wings.

    This all adds up to an interesting intersection in air combat theory. On one hand, America’s more stealthy fighters should be able to carry their shorter-ranged air-to-air munitions closer to enemy targets than their competitors. At the same time, the best of both worlds is packing long-range standoff weaponry inside a very stealthy aircraft, as distance and the aircraft’s degree of low-observable treatment from certain angles equals its detectability range by a given enemy radar system. Extra weapons range therefore buys extra stealth, or in other words, it keeps the launch aircraft outside of the detection range of enemy sensors at closer ranges.

    This may not be a big issue for the U.S. today as America’s stealth technology and weaponry combo is adequate even against advanced enemy air defense systems, but as stealth shaping and materials become less effective due to developments in radar systems, processing power networking, being able to carry longer-range weapons internally would buy an weapon system time as far as its relevancy and effectiveness on the battlefield goes.

    The weapons range issue is more important for Russia than the U.S. and NATO because the west relies heavily on AEW&C assets for air combat supremacy, and even if the PAK-FA can be detected, it may not be able to be engaged within the distance that it can launch its long-range weaponry. Thus a supercruising PAK-FA showing up on radar briefly at great range may give an AEW&C aircraft crew awareness of its existence, but it will not kill the long-range missile that was launched from the PAK-FA during that moment in time. As such, the PAK-FA’s low observability, although far cruder than American stealth designs, will buy the jet extra undetectability at long-range so that they can get a long-range missiles successfully on their way towards key aircraft, surface targets and surface-to-air missile sites.

    In the end, even the most advanced fighter in the world is still enabled or handicapped by its available weaponry. The designers of the PAK-FA/T-50 are clearly aware of their own limitations and are using weaponry to exploit the aircraft’s strengths and de-emphasize its inherent weaknesses. A relevant, albeit far from ideal strategy when your aircraft is clearly at a low obseravability disadvantage.

    Still, this does not take into key factors like how reliable these weapons are or will be, when they will they be operational and how accurate the claims made about them by Russian manufacturers are. Not to mention their susceptibility to jamming and countermeasures.



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    Mike E

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Mike E on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:47 am

    This article makes me lol! so hard. FTA embarrasses themselves with every post. 

    And then the comments... Even better.

    They take the narrative of American technology superiority way too seriously. "Crude stealth" Says who?
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    George1

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:07 am

    American Journal compares the 5th generation fighter T-50 and F-22A

    Ten years have passed since the F-22 Raptor Lockheed Martin's began to come into service in the US Air Force. He was named the most demonstrated his fighting qualities in the skies over Syria and Iraq. However, this machine is not used for a militant fighter for air superiority. But he was only a year ago, the destruction of the Soviet tank armada in the Fulda Gap, or to suppress the integrated air defense system of the modern enemy is planning its designers. Instead Raptor basically functions as a flying platform detection devices.

    However, the day will come when the F-22 will face an opponent who will have the chance to fight him on equal terms, and even win (although the chance for this small). Russia and China are hard at work on the creation of aircraft T-50 PAK FA and J-20. These two machines PAK FA is perhaps the most serious opponent. Despite the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia had somehow managed to keep more or less effective military-industrial base - although she now recalls only a pale shadow of its Soviet past.


    All in PAK FA says that this machine is in concept similar to the Raptor. This high-speed, high-altitude and low-profile fighter for air superiority. However, as might be expected, the Russian one paid more attention to the characteristics and less to others.

    A good example - stealth. The design of the T-50 is given much less stealth value in all ranges and angles. Instead, the designers focused on the invisible front part of it, because of what the aircraft on its telltale signs like a Pacman computer game of the same name. But the F-22 is more like a spider, if you look at it is not particularly closely. Stealth - is one aspect where Raptor has a huge advantage over the Russian plane.

    With regard to kinematics, there is the T-50 and F-22 are comparable - particularly when the PAK FA will have new engines. Mounted on it today engine called "Article 117" - a very decent, but eventually the plane will need to install a pilot engine "article 30", in order to fully harness the power of the airframe.

    Both aircraft are able to fly at supersonic speed. In the F-22 rate of slightly more than Mach number 1.8 (without afterburner), and PAK FA without the high pressure compressor can develop a speed of at least M = 1.6. Maximum operating altitude the F-22, 20 thousand meters, as well as the T-50. At the Raptor has a restrictive limit the maximum speed of M = 2.0, due to his lack of radar absorbing materials. I believe that the same red line will have the PAK FA.

    Although the F-22 has advantages in stealth characteristics, Russian ahead in maneuverability. T-50 is equipped with a three-dimensional thrust vector control, and says a lot about what he has advantages in terms of turning capacity. In Russian can also be mounted in a helmet display system. In addition, the PAK FA from day armed with rockets FAQ distance.

    Meanwhile, Raptor in 2017 were armed with a missile AIM-9X, and the Air Force, slowly overcoming the obstacles are to the creation of a helmet-mounted display system, which will be ready by 2020. Plus the fact that, given the state of the Russian economy, the PAK FA at this time is unlikely to be ready.

    As for the on-board electronics, then the F-22 will certainly be benefits in the form of a combination of sensors and pilot-vehicle interface. Russian can not boast of much success in creating a user-friendly cabins - just look at the cockpit of the MiG-29. But they are improving. In general, the detection devices and sensors of the two cars are about equal, although the Russian radar does pretty well, and they have an excellent system of electronic warfare.

    So, other things being equal, if the stealth will be a decisive factor, the PAK FA will be in an unenviable position. But if faith in the US Air Force stealth wrong, PAK FA will have the advantage. However, the war is by its own rules, and to predict its outcome is highly likely to be very difficult.


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    victor1985

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:22 pm

    just a short question that would clarify to me if something is possible suppose we have a radar antenna any type you want can be seen the angle at wich the waves enter the antenna or clearly can you see from where was emitted the signal?
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    GarryB

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:19 pm

    Very simply the signal emitted from the radar antenna into the radar dish is coded and the time it is emitted is recorded. When the dish is facing the right way and the return signal comes back its angle is recorded and based on the time and angle information the position of the object the return signal reflected from can be calculated.

    The shape of the dish and position of the transmitter/receiver are fixed and known so the angle the return signal arrives at allows a computation to work out target position.


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    victor1985

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:05 am

    ok thinking of that ive have a idea upon you could detect the f22. as we know there is signal noise from the sun. this noise get under the f22. or better said in the back under the f22. then theyre reflect by air exacly into the f22 from wich theyre reflect to the far front of f22 where a passive radar waits and upon the angle they enter they create a specific phase shift signal in the circuit now all you have to do is to corelate continuous phases shift with the continous angles at wich the f22 reflect the waves as he approach target so here we are f22 is visible
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    Book.

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  Book. on Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:08 pm

    F22 old design 1997 electronik the modular no

    Pakfa better data link EW radar engine sensor

    I think new hornet better electronik

    victor1985

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    Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

    Post  victor1985 on Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:19 pm

    alright seems here is no atention on this issue. in other words. seems seems noone take seriously but my point is that f22 is f...ed

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