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How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

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medo
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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  medo on Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:24 pm

Considering that US fly with F-22 over Syria, I'm sure Russian technicians were with radar operators in Assad controlled parts of Syria and measure F-22 RCS in combat conditions and its fingerprints on radars.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  nemrod on Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:08 pm

At first thx for your long document DrSomnath999, and your efforts.

DrSomnath999 wrote:
I)OLS-50 IRST (QWIP)

Russian OLS -50 IRST is a farcry from previous shorter wavelength Irst as it can detect IR signatures of F22
Any fighter with IRST could detect and engage every so-called stealth fighter, or stealth bomber.


DrSomnath999 wrote:
No doubt F22's aesa radar is technologically more advanced than russian Aesa radar....
Who said you this ? What are your proofs ? At first first Auspower is a western think tank, and some Carloo Koop's statements are mere imbecile fantaisies. The AESA radar  Tikhomirov NIIP features are all classified, as the radar of the F-22. When the  Tikhomirov NIIP was designed, it was a time when Russia lack of money, but has a strong know-how to design a better radar. The Auspower article refer to informations given nearly 10 years ago. After 10 years, I leave you imagine how the things changed.
I don't want to repeat what i've already said about the myth of BVR and air to air missiles. The fact that ex DOD secretary Robert Gates decided to cut the F-22 program. It was an initial order 700-800, he stopped the production to 188, and mostly closed all production lines. It indicates that  the high level of those who decided in Washington were well aware about the so-called performances of the F-22. Moreover most of russian fighters like Mig-29-33-35, Mig-31, Su-27-30-32-35, even the Mig-23 have the capacities to engage and to destroy every stealth fighter. No need Su-Pak FA.



RTN wrote:
max steel wrote:Chief designer of PAKFA, Davidenko  says the real RCS of F-22 is 0.4 meters.

FAIL! He obviously never got any access to the F-22. How did he arrive at this figure? Has he shown the calculation? Just empty bluster.

Russian engineers, technicians, and scientists are more cleaver than you can imagine. He asserted that because Russia, as China had already detected, and tracked the F-22. Russia have enough assets around Syria to say you what exactly is the F-22.

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PAK-FA vs F/A-22

Post  max steel on Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:13 pm

Well Alexander Davidenko made a mockery of himself on other forums for sure . I guess he was exaggerating nothing else .  Laughing

what TR1 said on keyforum : Assuming that that figure is the lowest frontal RCS figure is downright foolish IMO.

Disinformation is nothing new for the Russian defense establishment.

We have seen this figures quoted before, and they are as "accurate" now as they were then.  Very Happy




Fights between the F-22A and the PAK-FA will be close, high, fast and lethal.  The F-22A may get ‘first look’ with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get ‘first look’ using its advanced infrared sensor.  Then, the engagement becomes a supersonic equivalent of the Battle of Britain or air combat over North Korea.  The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time.Though f-22 stealth isn't a problem for Russia .





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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:10 am

I've noticed our "friend" TR1 is waging his own one man propaganda campaign against RDF on other forums....you guys really hurt his fragile overblown ego which he is now trying to overcompensate by continually reminding everyone that he no longer posts here...I find it pretty funny Laughing Cool

P.S.

Max,

you're making a lot of conclusions based on a lot of hear say and speculations

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  Mike E on Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:38 am

Cyberspec wrote:I've noticed our "friend" TR1 is waging his own one man propaganda campaign against RDF on other forums....you guys really hurt his fragile overblown ego which he is now trying to overcompensate by continually reminding everyone that he no longer posts here...I find it pretty funny Laughing Cool

P.S.

Max,

you're making a lot of conclusions based on a lot of hear say and speculations
Let him waste his time...  Twisted Evil

As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:01 am

Mike E wrote:
Cyberspec wrote:I've noticed our "friend" TR1 is waging his own one man propaganda campaign against RDF on other forums....you guys really hurt his fragile overblown ego which he is now trying to overcompensate by continually reminding everyone that he no longer posts here...I find it pretty funny Laughing Cool

P.S.

Max,

you're making a lot of conclusions based on a lot of hear say and speculations
Let him waste his time...  Twisted Evil

As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

He also conveniently doesn't mention that he derailed 90% of the threads on the site with flame wars for a year and half, or that he was banned on the pro-US MP.net forum. It doesn't matter if he's on a pro-US, or a pro-Russian forum, he outstayed his welcome on both sites.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  Mike E on Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:14 am

Still no reason to rag on him... He's gone for better or worse, and even mentioning him is giving him attention that he does not deserve.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  sepheronx on Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:24 am

As much as I didn't agree with him on everything and he was quite rude (as I have been as well), he was a good member imo and brought a lot of good information and pictures. I for one am disappointed he isn't on here.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  kvs on Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:04 am

sepheronx wrote:As much as I didn't agree with him on everything and he was quite rude (as I have been as well), he was a good member imo and brought a lot of good information and pictures.  I for one am disappointed he isn't on here.

Anyone else could have provided publicly available information. His attack on me claiming that Russia was incapable of finishing Project 636.3
submarines in under two years crossed the imbecile troll line. I was citing existing shipyard output not planned production. That
he is pissing all over Russia on other fora shows exactly his worthless level. Good riddance to the troll.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:12 pm

As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

I rather suspect 0.4 is an average figure... something the US aircraft makers never mention... they prefer peak or ideal angle numbers which are often orders of magnitude smaller... and to be honest absurd.

The purpose of the PAK FA is not to be stealthier than the F-22 or F-35, just to be stealthy enough that AMRAAM... both aircrafts main BVR weapon becomes useless at any range... with that being the case then it comes down to a turning knife fight... the PAK FA is optimised for manouver capability and should win such fights more often than not, so I think the Russians have a very good design that has been sensibly designed... not 0.0001 m^2 stealth that would cost trillions to buy and maintain...

But with the tools to do the job... IIR guided AAMs, IRST, long wave radar etc etc.


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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:54 pm

GarryB wrote:
As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

I rather suspect 0.4 is an average figure... something the US aircraft makers never mention... they prefer peak or ideal angle numbers which are often orders of magnitude smaller... and to be honest absurd.

The purpose of the PAK FA is not to be stealthier than the F-22 or F-35, just to be stealthy enough that AMRAAM... both aircrafts main BVR weapon becomes useless at any range... with that being the case then it comes down to a turning knife fight... the PAK FA is optimised for manouver capability and should win such fights more often than not, so I think the Russians have a very good design that has been sensibly designed... not 0.0001 m^2 stealth that would cost trillions to buy and maintain...

But with the tools to do the job... IIR guided AAMs, IRST, long wave radar etc etc.

+

Aggree, it does not matter both those values are not exactly true even tho i think the values provided by Sukhoi are much closer to the truth than this ridiculous labour simulated RCS of 0.00001m² what Lockheed Martin provided. The main goal like GarryB has pointed out is to overcome maximum engagement ranges of your opponent to while having advantage against 4th++ gen fighters or having at least a parrity among 5th gen fighter F-22 vs Su-50, however looking that Su-50 has IRST it has a huge advantage of getting lockon in BVR without emitting and therefore losing its advantage of staying undetected. The IRST for F-22 has been scrapped so it has and will remain this advantage and superior in maneuverability that is since decades the russian philosophy for air fighters and wars have shown that this outweights BVR combat by a significant margin.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  victor1985 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:29 pm

GarryB wrote:
As some of you have noted, the 0.4 figure could have been born as a result of whatever wavelengths, what conditions etc.

I rather suspect 0.4 is an average figure... something the US aircraft makers never mention... they prefer peak or ideal angle numbers which are often orders of magnitude smaller... and to be honest absurd.

The purpose of the PAK FA is not to be stealthier than the F-22 or F-35, just to be stealthy enough that AMRAAM... both aircrafts main BVR weapon becomes useless at any range... with that being the case then it comes down to a turning knife fight... the PAK FA is optimised for manouver capability and should win such fights more often than not, so I think the Russians have a very good design that has been sensibly designed... not 0.0001 m^2 stealth that would cost trillions to buy and maintain...

But with the tools to do the job... IIR guided AAMs, IRST, long wave radar etc etc.
i have a question for you:
every stealth plane no matter become visible in IR from very long distance. about ~100 km. so the plane purely has no time to launch his rockets againts targets because he will be aquired from long range by IR. what chances has such a plane? most missiles on plane have range of most better 30 km. but he will be aquire from 100 km. he has no time to launch his missile.
are all tell me that in the wars in gulf in 1992 serbia 1998 afghanistan and irak again this countryes didn't have any land based IR IRST IIR or whatever ? even in visible range at night would not be a problem to aquire target because of the flame. rockets are vulnerable to this kind of measures. those countryes didn't have any new tehnologies like lock on to target in IR , visible camera and so on and they based only on radar ?

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  medo on Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:47 pm

Don't forget, that even Su-30SM and Su-35 have good chances against F-22 and F-35, considering that they have very potent ECM equipment, which will effectively jam all AMRAAMs launched against them. In dogfight stealth doesn't play a role and Su-30SM and Su-35 with TVC are no worse in dogfight than F-22, specially Su-35.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  victor1985 on Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:00 am

this is my point too. does not worth to have a stealth plane as long as his missiles are visible and jammable. and another thing that i dont get it is why land forces are struggeling to make a anti plane missile as long as they can make a anti missile system. meaning to destroy the missiles that are comming from aircraft instead of destroing the aircraft itself. after all the US pilots arent kamikaze and they will simply launch the rocket and if they miss they`ll return to base. only problem is when a aircraft has launched a rocket is hard to reach that rocket. and video of rocket cant be jammable. also a point is that US strategy is based on satellites. jam that satellites or make a artificial fog and their planes would walk in blind.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:40 am

The IRST for F-22 has been scrapped so it has and will remain this advantage and superior in maneuverability that is since decades the russian philosophy for air fighters and wars have shown that this outweights BVR combat by a significant margin.

The problem is that most people think the F-22 and the PAK FA will be the same... ie the PAK FA will be an F-22ski.

The f-22 is a long range sniper that will operate at high altitude at supersonic speed firing AMRAAMs at max range shooting down the enemies air force... its altitude and speed will make it able to reach further and faster with its missiles, while putting any missiles fired in its direction at a huge disadvantage having to climb and attack a high speed high energy target.

It doesn't have IRST because it doesn't want IRST it is for shooting down 4th gen and older fighters and aircraft.... because it expects to be able to keep using its radar as much as it likes over enemy territory and for large long range SAMs to be taken down by cruise missile already.

the PAK FA has IRST and long range IR guided missiles and L band radars because they know their enemy has stealth aircraft. PAK FA is a stealth fighter hunter. Which is why they don't need 1,000 PAK FAs... probably 250 would be too many even assuming the F-35 gets into service in the numbers they propose because the F-35 will struggle against the Su-35 let alone the PAK FA...

i have a question for you:
every stealth plane no matter become visible in IR from very long distance. about ~100 km. so the plane purely has no time to launch his rockets againts targets because he will be aquired from long range by IR. what chances has such a plane? most missiles on plane have range of most better 30 km. but he will be aquire from 100 km. he has no time to launch his missile.

The F-22 was a plane for the 1980s and 1990s at most... it didn't matter if it could be detected at long range with IRST because it would be operating at high altitude and high speed firing late model AMRAAMs to 100km or so. The fact that a MiG-29SMT might detect the super cruising F-22 at 90km ignores the fact that the F-22 would have detected the MiG-29 at about 200km with its radar and would have manouvered into a position to attack the MiG-29 at max range from the rear where possible... remember an advantage of flying high and at supersonic speed is that you can move around a lot very quickly. Against an enemy whose air defence network is being broken with cruise missile attacks taking down large SAMs and major radars and communcations centres and power plants the MiG-29 controllers will be in serious disarray... note we are talking about small countries like Serbia or Iraq rather than the Soviet Union.

What has changed is that the IADS in Russia is rather more robust and 20 years of development of IRSTs and long range IR guided missiles and radar technology has eroded the screen the F-22 once hid behind. Now that AMRAAM is not a high probability killer against targets that have competent jammers the likelyhood is that even a MiG-29SMT could get close and with modern capable IIR guided short range missiles would have a better than average chance of getting a kill.

Remember in the 1990s the Germans got their hands on MiG-29s and even when fitted with the long range centreline fuel tank that limited manouver capability found helmet mounted sights changed the way the game was played... notice the rapid introduction of the AIM-9X and helmet mounted sights?

Also notice the F-22 does not have helmet mounted sights for the Sidewinder it carries... if it needs it... it is probably dead... stealth wont stop 30mm cannon shells.

are all tell me that in the wars in gulf in 1992 serbia 1998 afghanistan and irak again this countryes didn't have any land based IR IRST IIR or whatever ? even in visible range at night would not be a problem to aquire target because of the flame. rockets are vulnerable to this kind of measures. those countryes didn't have any new tehnologies like lock on to target in IR , visible camera and so on and they based only on radar ?

Not just any IRST will spot stealth aircraft and being able to spot it is not enough... you have to have something that can actually shoot it down... which they didn't.

and another thing that i dont get it is why land forces are struggeling to make a anti plane missile as long as they can make a anti missile system.

Both TOR and Pantsir-SM are designed to shoot down weapons including missiles, rockets, and bombs.

The thing is that it is far more efficient to shoot down one Apache Helicopter than it is to hit the 16 Hellfire missiles it might be carrying. A unit of 4 Apaches would have 64 Hellfires to shoot down... track and shoot down 64 targets or 4?

It has always been a weakness of stealth aircraft that they are limited in numbers of weapons because to retain stealth they have to be carried internally... and as such a reason why planes like Su-35 and MiG-35 make sense to build even today... sometimes jammers and lots of missiles is more useful than stealth.


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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  havok on Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:05 am

max steel wrote:little do you know stealth concept is russian .
No, 'stealth' is not a Russian concept. Not even a Russian idea. Please do not bring up Ufimtsev. I have his textbook on my shelf. It is not, and never was, a sort of 'cookbook' for low radar observability. Ufimtsev's truly admirable work, was essentially mathematically formalized outline of how waves behaves on edges and surfaces. It does not say: 'Do A, B, and C so that radars X, Y, and Z cannot see you.'

If radar low observability was truly a Russian idea, then why did the US came up with the F-117 before the Soviet Union? You probably did not know it, but when Ufimtsev completed his work, the Soviet Union still exist. Very Happy Which mean Ufimtsev's work would have been immediately classified as state secret. Instead, his work was sufficiently bland that he was allowed to publish internationally.

Radar low observability is about the exploitation of wave behaviors towards a specific goal, so from that perspective, the SR-71 could arguably be the world's first 'stealth' aircraft. But the F-117 is the world's first 'stealth' aircraft because the jet's radar response behavior was placed nearly on par with aerodynamics and Ufimtsev's math made that exploitation possible.

Little do you know...

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:04 am

No, 'stealth' is not a Russian concept. Not even a Russian idea. Please do not bring up Ufimtsev. I have his textbook on my shelf. It is not, and never was, a sort of 'cookbook' for low radar observability. Ufimtsev's truly admirable work, was essentially mathematically formalized outline of how waves behaves on edges and surfaces. It does not say: 'Do A, B, and C so that radars X, Y, and Z cannot see you.'

You are quite right radar stealth was developed well before Ufimtsev... very simply flying very low was stealthy in WWII.. it was the Soviets that developed the mathematic model that takes the hit and miss guesswork out of stealth design. With Ufimtsevs model you can calculate RCS and try hundreds of thousands of different designs rapidly via computer and just built the most promising... it was the US that made stealth expensive... Twisted Evil

If radar low observability was truly a Russian idea, then why did the US came up with the F-117 before the Soviet Union?

In fact even to this day Russia has not developed an F-117... perhaps a short range light bomber was of little use to them... a cruise missile offering double the flight range at a fraction of the cost and with no risk to a pilot...

You probably did not know it, but when Ufimtsev completed his work, the Soviet Union still exist. Very Happy Which mean Ufimtsev's work would have been immediately classified as state secret. Instead, his work was sufficiently bland that he was allowed to publish internationally.

Yes, it took peace loving America to weaponise an area of mathematics and turn it into something that kills. Mendelev creates the table of elements... the US sees a list of chemicals it can use to torture and kill with.

Radar low observability is about the exploitation of wave behaviors towards a specific goal, so from that perspective, the SR-71 could arguably be the world's first 'stealth' aircraft.

Not by any measure... the SR-71s were reliably tracked from take off to landing during operations near the Soviet Union and over Vietnam by the Soviet Union and China respectively. If they can be tracked from take off to landing then they are not by any measure stealthy.

The U-2 spy plane was not stealthy either despite also being painted black. Rolling Eyes

But the F-117 is the world's first 'stealth' aircraft because the jet's radar response behavior was placed nearly on par with aerodynamics and Ufimtsev's math made that exploitation possible.

The F-117 was the first operational stealth aircraft to enter operational service, and had as much to do with the ability of a flight control system to enable a brick to fly as it did with the maths from the Soviet Union... BTW Soviet maths for stealth... Titanium for building SR-71s... Nazis building your Saturn 5 rockets... is there anything the US can do on its own? It doesn't even invade countries on its own anymore now... Twisted Evil


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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  max steel on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:32 am

garry you forgot to add nuclear bombs . Germans made first nuclear bomb for them . After the end of ww2 all the nazi scientists were taken to usa . hitler govt rank holders were given similar positions of responsibility in NATO in 1945 . Same role different countries .

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:53 am

garry you forgot to add nuclear bombs . Germans made first nuclear bomb for them .

Actually it was a real melting pot of Poles, French, and many other European immigrants that created the bomb... and I might add a Kiwi made a significant contribution to the whole concept in the form of Sir Earnest Rutherford who split the atom.... Smile



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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  havok on Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:08 am

GarryB wrote:it was the Soviets that developed the mathematic model that takes the hit and miss guesswork out of stealth design.
It was an understandable fuck-up that they failed to realize Ufimtsev's potential.

Yes, it took peace loving America to weaponise an area of mathematics and turn it into something that kills. Mendelev creates the table of elements... the US sees a list of chemicals it can use to torture and kill with.
As if that was unique to US.

You missed the point, which is understandable. I said that if the Soviets recognized Ufimtsev's work with military potential, most likely he would have been stashed away in one of the many secret cities where scientists are privileged and pampered in order to get them to produce weapons. So who is really good at turning something benign into weapons ? Your Soviet Union was. In fact, weapons development was the best thing your Soviet Union was really good at.

Could the microwave oven came from the Soviet Union ? No. It could not.

Did EM effects on materials unknown to Soviet scientists ? No. Were electronics technology unknown to the Soviets ? Absolutely not. And yet, the microwave oven came from the West. When the microwave oven was under development, public opinions revealed that people wanted to see their food being heated/cooked. Why ? What is the rationality behind the need to see the food being heated/cooked ? There were none. And yet that is what the public wanted. If the door's window was plain glass or clear plastic, EM radiation would leave the chamber. The solution ? Place a metal screen with the glass or clear plastic window. The holes in the metal screen are physically smaller than the physical wavelengths of the EM radiation, so none or only a very small amount of EM radiation will escape the chamber. Did Soviet scientists and engineers not know of this behavior ? Nonsense. They knew. And yet it was the West who solved the technical issues that conflict with consumer want. It was our way of life that enabled people -- entrepreuners -- to create non-military tools and devices that made our lives easier to bear.

Your Soviet Union made the world's first man-made satellite. What happened then from the Soviet Union ? Nothing but military satellites. Whereas with the West, the satellite was used to make telephone calls easier, communicate data easier, and entertainment easier.

Could the Internet came from the Soviet Union or Russia ? Absolutely -- NOT.

Not by any measure... the SR-71s were reliably tracked from take off to landing during operations near the Soviet Union and over Vietnam by the Soviet Union and China respectively. If they can be tracked from take off to landing then they are not by any measure stealthy.
The SR-71's shaping was an attempt at radar low observability by intentional design, and even though Soviet radars detected it, the detection was less effective than with other aircrafts.

The U-2 spy plane was not stealthy either despite also being painted black.
No one said anything about black paint, buddy.

The F-117 was the first operational stealth aircraft to enter operational service, and had as much to do with the ability of a flight control system to enable a brick to fly as it did with the maths from the Soviet Union... BTW Soviet maths for stealth... Titanium for building SR-71s... Nazis building your Saturn 5 rockets... is there anything the US can do on its own? It doesn't even invade countries on its own anymore now...  Twisted Evil
We did all those things on our own.

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  max steel on Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:57 am

what you want to prove ?

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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:24 am

It was an understandable fuck-up that they failed to realize Ufimtsev's potential.

Hardly.

Not every technology needs to be used to kill people and dominate the rest...

As if that was unique to US.

Of course not... it is not their fault they are good at "rape and pillage and murder"... just a shame they think they have the right to tell others how to live, and manage to end the lives of so many whether they are listening or not...

You missed the point, which is understandable. I said that if the Soviets recognized Ufimtsev's work with military potential, most likely he would have been stashed away in one of the many secret cities where scientists are privileged and pampered in order to get them to produce weapons. So who is really good at turning something benign into weapons ? Your Soviet Union was. In fact, weapons development was the best thing your Soviet Union was really good at.

They never really got a chance to find out what they were good at, they spent most of their existence being hounded and baited by the west.

BTW Not my Soviet Union... never been there.

It was our way of life that enabled people -- entrepreuners -- to create non-military tools and devices that made our lives easier to bear.

Most western people are lazy and stupid and will spend $200 on a plastic piece of rubbish they are told will make them slim and fit... they will buy it, try it... find it actually requires effort whether it works or not they will put it under the bed or in the closet and never think about it again...

It was our way of life to get people to buy all sorts of shit they don't need and when it breaks to throw it away and make some more... the problem is that the system doesn't actually work because to be that throwaway society you need very very cheap labour to actually make all the stuff so cheaply everyone can afford it. Move all production overseas and let cheap foreign workers make it... but how do your people earn the money to buy the crap your companies design and build overseas? Especially when all the manufacturing jobs just got sent over seas... The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and at some stage the 99% are going to want a bigger share of the worlds wealth and there is only the 1% they can take it from...

Could the Internet came from the Soviet Union or Russia ? Absolutely -- NOT.

It came from the US military... it was a concept of data sharing and communication based on nodes where battledamage might break some links but the information could be rerouted around damaged or non function nodes and still get to those who needed it....

Your Soviet Union made the world's first man-made satellite. What happened then from the Soviet Union ? Nothing but military satellites. Whereas with the West, the satellite was used to make telephone calls easier, communicate data easier, and entertainment easier.

You mean the west that is listening to everyone... even its own allies, for the purposes of drone strikes... making telephone calls easier so they are easier to tap.

...the NSA... the only part of the government that listens to YOU.

The SR-71's shaping was an attempt at radar low observability by intentional design, and even though Soviet radars detected it, the detection was less effective than with other aircrafts.

They had no problem detecting it from takeoff to landing... and China did the same with SR-71 flights over Vietnam... this was detection from enormous ranges... In fact it was easier than with other aircraft... very few aircraft go into near vertical climbs and accelerate the way the SR-71 did.

No one said anything about black paint, buddy.

But it isn't stealthy if it hasn't got black paint...

We did all those things on our own.

Well we are the centre of the universe too aren't we... I mean Jesus was American...

what you want to prove ?

Perhaps that the US is a much better country than I am suggesting, or that the current or recent regimes reflect... so he does have a point.


_________________
“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

jhelb
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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  jhelb on Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:42 pm

GarryB wrote:They had no problem detecting it from takeoff to landing... and China did the same with SR-71 flights over Vietnam... this was detection from enormous ranges... In fact it was easier than with other aircraft... very few aircraft go into near vertical climbs and accelerate the way the SR-71 did.

Garry, the Soviet Union never had any problem in detecting the SR 71. The thing is the Soviet Air Force always knew when an SR-71 launch would occur, because the KC-135 fuel tanker would take off first since the SR-71 had to be immediately refueled once airborne.

China frankly had no SAM system even half as good as the S 200. Till this day they reverse engineer S 300 PMU2 without paying a cent as license fee to Russia. Very soon they will do the same with the S 400.

It is becoming very difficult for Russia to sell its military hardware because of such malpractices.

Werewolf
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Re: How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

Post  Werewolf on Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:50 pm

havok wrote:
You missed the point, which is understandable. I said that if the Soviets recognized Ufimtsev's work with military potential, most likely he would have been stashed away in one of the many secret cities where scientists are privileged and pampered in order to get them to produce weapons. So who is really good at turning something benign into weapons ? Your Soviet Union was. In fact, weapons development was the best thing your Soviet Union was really good at.

Nonsense, he presented his work and it was considered unfeasible with the cost and benefits not to mention that shapes of aircrafts and physics were not considered worth wasting money on a flying brick. The same happened with ERA the best armor technology for most Anti Tank weapons over decades, the first trials and testing for this ERA effect was tried by NII Stali workers during WW2, the only thing one General of Tank Division replied to it "I am not crazy enough to strap Dynamite to my tanks. Find some other fool". So was this brilliant Technology delayed for some time.

havok wrote:
Could the microwave oven came from the Soviet Union ? No. It could not.

They did have it. Someone posted here some weeks ago a picture of a Soviet Microwave from 40-50's. They could and did.

havok wrote:
Did EM effects on materials unknown to Soviet scientists ? No. Were electronics technology unknown to the Soviets ? Absolutely not. And yet, the microwave oven came from the West. When the microwave oven was under development, public opinions revealed that people wanted to see their food being heated/cooked. Why ? What is the rationality behind the need to see the food being heated/cooked ? There were none. And yet that is what the public wanted. If the door's window was plain glass or clear plastic, EM radiation would leave the chamber. The solution ? Place a metal screen with the glass or clear plastic window. The holes in the metal screen are physically smaller than the physical wavelengths of the EM radiation, so none or only a very small amount of EM radiation will escape the chamber. Did Soviet scientists and engineers not know of this behavior ? Nonsense. They knew. And yet it was the West who solved the technical issues that conflict with consumer want. It was our way of life that enabled people -- entrepreuners -- to create non-military tools and devices that made our lives easier to bear.

Microwave ovens were banned in 1976 for health issues, because such ovens are unhealthy not just for surroundings even with screening it, but also destroys nutrition.
The soviet Union wasn't focused on civil market because it does not exist nor was in political view necessary, poor poor people couldn't microwave their food and had to actually cook it and comsume actual food with actual nutrition, while the genius westerners eat and shit with the same amount of nutrition and consistancy.


havok wrote:
Your Soviet Union made the world's first man-made satellite. What happened then from the Soviet Union ? Nothing but military satellites. Whereas with the West, the satellite was used to make telephone calls easier, communicate data easier, and entertainment easier.

What purpose would Soviets had with a civilian Satellite in 50-60-70-80s? Watching american television? There was no market and no purpose for it, good luck trusting in West when they do something for Public it always will boil down to Controlling or Spying on civilians not for benefit, never for the benefit.


[quote="havok"]
Could the Internet came from the Soviet Union or Russia ? Absolutely -- NOT.

Another failure of explaining or understanding. What purpose had the Internet? it is a fucking MILITARY INVENTION, they would never spend a single cent on developing for the purpose of soley civilian needs or benefits a communication system, only when they can take advantage of it. Biggest CIA invention a spy network called Internet, brilliant those americans, filthy peseant soviets do not spy on their own people and rest of the world with out genius effeciency.



We did all those things on our own.

Jack shit you did on your own.

Operation Paperclip 2500 German Scientists have been hijacked and are working for the US on different levels. Engines, Rockets, Missiles, Tanks, Planes. The freakish NASA is a GERMAN program from 1945-1968 only after that time of period actual american content rose based on GERMAN engineering. Your damn space missiles are all German V-2 rocket based and run by Werner von Braun.

You did nothing on your own, NO Petr Ufimtsev's work and the US would be still trying to make stealth aircrafts by the jackshit Raimer has told them, but they scrabbed his work and took Ufimtsev's work and directed and elocated money and focus on his work and approach.

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Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy

Post  nemrod on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:36 pm

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/01/16/patent_analysis_shows_how_pak-fa_differs_from_f-22_in_air_combat_philos_32309.html


Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy

The PAK-FA patent document published by Russia’s Federal Service for Intellectual Property shows the fifth generation stealth aircraft’s design is heavily influenced by low radar visibility requirements. At the same time, the Russians are prepared to sacrifice some stealth in their quest for super maneuverability and excellent flight characteristics.

The aim of the invention, say the patent papers, is to provide an aircraft having low radar visibility, super maneuverability at high angles of attack (close to an astounding 90 degrees), and simultaneously preserving high aerodynamic efficiency at subsonic speeds.

Creating an aircraft that is capable of performing tasks in a wide range of altitudes and flight speeds and also has a low radar signature is a technical challenge, the Russians admit. “All these requirements are contradictory, and the creation of an airplane that meets these requirements represents a compromise.”

On the radar screens

The papers claim that the intention of the designers is to reduce the radar cross-section (RCS) of the aircraft to an “average figure of 0.1-1 square metre”. At this range the aircraft appears like a bird on enemy radar and becomes difficult – though not impossible – to spot.

The Sukhoi compares well with the American F-22 stealth fighter which aviation experts believe has an RCS of 0.1 square metre. (The actual figure is classified) Fourth generation fighters such as the Sukhoi-27/30 and F-15E have an RCS in the range of 10-15 square metres.

Reducing the radar visibility of the aircraft is achieved through a combination of design and technology, in particular by shaping the contours of the airframe.

According to Piotr Butowski of Jane’s International Defence Review, “Some openings and slots on the airframe’s surface – such as the boundary-layer bleeds on the sides of the air intakes and the openings on the upper fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit – are covered with a thick grid, featuring a mesh of less than one quarter of the wavelength of a search radar, which reduces the reflections from these uneven surfaces. Gaps between the airframe elements are filled with conducting sealants, while the glazing of the cockpit canopy is metallised.

“The surfaces of the PAK-FA’s own five radar arrays are also angled off from the vertical plane, helping to ‘deflect’ enemy radar signals. The covers of the radar arrays are selective, letting through their own signals, but blocking other frequencies. Additionally, the array compartments are edged with radar-absorbing ‘curtains’ to reduce possible leaks of these amplified signals.”

Versatile aircraft

The PAK-FA’s two engines are placed apart in isolated pods, creating space for a large cargo compartment in between. The air intakes are located further apart in respect to the vertical and horizontal planes than the engines, creating a curvature that hides the compressor and reduces the radar signature of the aircraft from the front.

The engines are also placed at an acute angle relative to the vertical plane, allowing thrust vectoring – an area in which Sukhoi excels – in the longitudinal, transverse and travel channels. The engine nozzles point outwards, which transfers a significant portion of the control of the aircraft to them even at low altitudes. This considerably improves flight safety.

The movable airfoil above and in front of the engine air inlets is a unique feature of the PAK-FA, and is typical of Russian ingenuity in airframe design. The airfoils can rotate downwards around their rear edge. Similar to wing slats, they assist control when the aircraft is at high angles of attack. The air intakes are located on each side of the fuselage and they are bevelled in two planes in order to maintain flow even at high angles of attack.

PAK-FA weaknesses

The paper also lists some of the disadvantages of the aircraft:

   The inability to control roll and yaw channels when flying at low speeds because the engines are located close to each other.
   The curved shape of the air intake duct requires an increase in their length, and therefore, the mass of the airplane.
   The inability to ensure the “vanishing” of the aircraft during supercritical angles of attack.
   The use of fixed keels with rudders requires increasing the required area of the vertical stabiliser to provide directional stability at supersonic flight conditions, which leads to an increase in weight tail, and hence, the aircraft in general, and to an increase in drag.


Why balance is the key

Comparing the PAK-FA with the F-22 Raptor or F-35 Lightning II is a difficult task because most of the specs of these cutting edge aircraft are highly classified. Still, going by available data, the Russian aircraft doesn’t look as stealthy as the $420 million F-22.

The F-22’s stealth advantage doesn’t seem to worry the Russians. For, the PAK-FA embraces an entirely different combat philosophy where super maneuverability is considered a vital weapon. In contrast, the Americans have thrown all their eggs into the stealth basket, relying on near invisibility to strike at targets. The idea is to have “first look/first shot/first kill” air dominance capability. The aim – in reality hope – is to see the enemy first while avoiding detection.

However, hope is a poor substitute for preparation. The Russian view is that it never hurts to have dogfighting abilities. At some point stealth aircraft will have to close in for the kill and that’s when a knife fight is inevitable. That’s also when super maneuverability comes into play. Slow, ponderous and poorly armed stealth aircraft such as the F-35 are likely to be clubbed to death in a fight with the PAK-FA.

Plus, new radars are on their way which can detect stealth aircraft. At any rate stealth is not really an invisibility cloak as the American manufacturers and war planners are pitching it. The 1999 downing of the American F-117 stealth fighter by a highly motivated and well-trained Serbian anti-aircraft battery was a huge slap in the face of the American stealth industry.

The Serbians used a 1960s vintage – yet highly advanced – Russian S-125 Neva/Pechora surface to air missile conjointly with a P18 metre band radar. They were able to bring down the F-117 within 18 seconds of detection – a stark example of the vulnerability of stealth aircraft.

It will take the wars of the future to deliver the verdict on which philosophy is better – total stealth or the Russian insistence on super maneuverability. In the meantime, Russian and Indian Air Force pilots can’t wait to get their hands on what promises to be a fighter pilot’s dream.

They’ll have to wait a bit longer: according to the Russian National Armament Programme, 60 PAK-FA fighters will be delivered between 2016 and 2020.




PS: I wanted to add this post into Pak Fa thread, but I hesitated, because the Thread related news, and not debate. Here are arguments, against Pak Fa and how SU-50 differs of the F-22. As Iam not a great fan of this aircraft, and overall all so-called stealth aircrafts, I try to bring as better as I can arguments to justify why SU-50 is a russian's mistake. I don't know if this fighter will have the same SU-11's fate, but its overall capacities seem to me dubious. If you believe this thread is not in the good area, feel free to move it.

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