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    Russian Τank Βiathlon

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    Mike E
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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:37 pm

    Crew is #1, even though a good FCS system does help.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:13 pm

    But, might as well be training APDS hitting soil.
    Isn't it just an inert training shell?
    FCS is not everything the crew and their experience and skill count also
    I aslo heard that using a FCS is prohibited by the ruls as it's a tankmen competition not FCS one, but it must be a rumor

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:22 pm

    Asf wrote:
    But, might as well be training APDS hitting soil.
    Isn't it just an inert training shell?
    FCS is not everything the crew and their experience and skill count also
    I aslo heard that using a FCS is prohibited by the ruls as it's a tankmen competition not FCS one, but it must be a rumor
    Even better, that means it is all the crew...

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  cracker on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:25 pm

    TAPFSDS , yes, training shell... Steel APFSDS with reduced range and of course worthless against real armour (maybe penetrate up to 250mm 90° armour at 500m, but not much, or if the round is not proper AP shell hardened steel, probably 80mm.)

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:28 pm

    I figured it was some sort of training shell... At least APFSDS rounds have a higher velocity, which means a better representation of accuracy etc.

     - This post got me on the Top 20 posters page. - Not exactly a good thing...

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  volna on Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:03 am

    [quote="Werewolf"]
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    Not sure if that is true, but i thought all of them were shooting APFSDS training rounds. Do you have a source?
    It's true,Chinese used APFSDS rounds.
    http://www.redstar.ru/index.php/component/k2/item/17999-bronetankovyj-triumf


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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:50 am

    Thanks for the source.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Regular on Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:56 am

    Chinese tank really surprised me. It really needs some work on engine and maybe armour needs to be rearranged, but it's not worthless tanks like some .pk .in blogs try to portray it. It went against though competition.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:03 am

    Regular wrote:Chinese tank really surprised me. It really needs some work on engine and maybe armour needs to be rearranged, but it's not worthless tanks like some .pk .in blogs try to portray it. It went against though competition.

    The tank is one thing, and the crew is the another thing...

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:15 am

    Regular wrote:Chinese tank really surprised me. It really needs some work on engine and maybe armour needs to be rearranged, but it's not worthless tanks like some .pk .in blogs try to portray it. It went against though competition.

    In many countries, including mine, people have a stereotype of Chinese goods as "copy, low quality junks".

    I admit that I am ignorant about Chinese weapons' quality. But I am very sure about the "copy" part.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:18 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Regular wrote:Chinese tank really surprised me. It really needs some work on engine and maybe armour needs to be rearranged, but it's not worthless tanks like some .pk .in blogs try to portray it. It went against though competition.

    In many countries, including mine, people have a stereotype of Chinese goods as "copy, low quality junks".

    I admit that I am ignorant about Chinese weapons' quality. But I am very sure about the "copy" part.

    Trust me, that isn't only true in your country... People here in the US either don't care about Chinese-made products, or they avoid them like the plague...

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:31 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Regular wrote:Chinese tank really surprised me. It really needs some work on engine and maybe armour needs to be rearranged, but it's not worthless tanks like some .pk .in blogs try to portray it. It went against though competition.

    In many countries, including mine, people have a stereotype of Chinese goods as "copy, low quality junks".

    I admit that I am ignorant about Chinese weapons' quality. But I am very sure about the "copy" part.

    Trust me, that isn't only true in your country... People here in the US either don't care about Chinese-made products, or they avoid them like the plague...

    Well that is impossible since not a single electrical device in anyones house that will not have large amount of parts with the label "Made in China".


    This thingy with "Made in China" and linking it to low quality is utterly stupid nonsense. The fact that most of the stuff people buy and labeled Made in China in our western markets are designed by companies that belong to our western countries that just exploit cheap chinese labor. Things are already designed to be cheap as possible to keep the costs low and maximize the profit for the companies. Meaning "Made in China" products are poorly designed by western companies for western markets and upside of this is it is only bad image for China not for the companies itself who create lot of crappy products like apple.

    Chinese tank really surprised me. It really needs some work on engine and maybe armour needs to be rearranged, but it's not worthless tanks like some .pk .in blogs try to portray it. It went against though competition.

    What i heared it is less the engine but mainly the gearbox that makes problems, which is not really a suprise since most had at some point problems with their gearbox while engines were mostly rather easier to handle.
    It surely has higher quality than most would like to admit or just simply remain to "Made in China" stereotypes.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:48 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Regular wrote:Chinese tank really surprised me. It really needs some work on engine and maybe armour needs to be rearranged, but it's not worthless tanks like some .pk .in blogs try to portray it. It went against though competition.

    In many countries, including mine, people have a stereotype of Chinese goods as "copy, low quality junks".

    I admit that I am ignorant about Chinese weapons' quality. But I am very sure about the "copy" part.

    Trust me, that isn't only true in your country... People here in the US either don't care about Chinese-made products, or they avoid them like the plague...

    Well that is impossible since not a single electrical device in anyones house that will not have large amount of parts with the label "Made in China".


    This thingy with "Made in China" and linking it to low quality is utterly stupid nonsense. The fact that most of the stuff people buy and labeled Made in China in our western markets are designed by companies that belong to our western countries that just exploit cheap chinese labor. Things are already designed to be cheap as possible to keep the costs low and maximize the profit for the companies. Meaning "Made in China" products are poorly designed by western companies for western markets and upside of this is it is only bad image for China not for the companies itself who create lot of crappy products like apple.

    This is something that most people don't understand, due to free trade agreements Western companies design goods to be as cheap as possible and as a consequence they're much lower in quality (hence the saying you get what you pay for) and has nothing with being Chinese and has everything to do with companies avoiding regulations (that are in place for consumer quality protection). Need I have to remind people that the Great Wall of China is widely considered one of the greatest designing and engineering feats of all time?

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:21 pm

    Most of products are designed to break as much as possible. They are designed to hold only that long how long the countries allow warrantees to last like average 2 years of major products. That is called Planned Obsolence. That is how companies maximize their income by designing things to last only a short time so people need to repair or re-buy their stuff.

    In electronics industries there is even a special jobs in quality ensurence department that design wirings and circuit platines in that way that the circuites themselfs only last for ca. XXX hours total and break after that so people need to buy a new component for it. Apple for example is the biggest user of Planned obsolence for circuite platines and components and that is also the reason why most of their products are designed that way that their companies need to fix it.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Regular on Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:54 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Most of products are designed to break as much as possible. They are designed to hold only that long how long the countries allow warrantees to last like average 2 years of major products. That is called Planned Obsolence. That is how companies maximize their income by designing things to last only a short time so people need to repair or re-buy their stuff.

    In electronics industries there is even a special jobs in quality ensurence department that design wirings and circuit platines in that way that the circuites themselfs only last for ca. XXX hours total and break after that so people need to buy a new component for it. Apple for example is the biggest user of Planned obsolence for circuite platines and components and that is also the reason why most of their products are designed that way that their companies need to fix it.
    Very wise post.
    I own vintage Helios optics for my camera, they are made in 77 and quality of their image is impeccable. They are made out of stainless steel, they have accurate mechanics. And I own Nikkor cameras who cost 10x times more, but are made out of plastic.
    And I've noticed same thing with new cars.
    I owned plenty of 88 - 95 cars and they were more sturdier than cars made today. Hell even engines were much better in the good old days. German cars are shit these days Neutral

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:27 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Most of products are designed to break as much as possible. They are designed to hold only that long how long the countries allow warrantees to last like average 2 years of major products. That is called Planned Obsolence. That is how companies maximize their income by designing things to last only a short time so people need to repair or re-buy their stuff.

    In electronics industries there is even a special jobs in quality ensurence department that design wirings and circuit platines in that way that the circuites themselfs only last for ca. XXX hours total and break after that so people need to buy a new component for it. Apple for example is the biggest user of Planned obsolence for circuite platines and components and that is also the reason why most of their products are designed that way that their companies need to fix it.
    Very wise post.
    I own vintage Helios optics for my camera, they are made in 77 and quality of their image is impeccable. They are made out of stainless steel, they have accurate mechanics. And I own Nikkor cameras who cost 10x times more, but are made out of plastic.
    And I've noticed same thing with new cars.
    I owned plenty of 88 - 95 cars and they were more sturdier than cars made today. Hell even engines were much better in the good old days. German cars are shit these days Neutral

    I aggree. They are made to break down after 2 years so you are forced to go to a BMW/Mercedes/Audi or VW to their brand repair shop and buy same crappy spare parts you can buy online or some non brand car shop for a five times cheaper price. And the laws here in germany are often made in hand of lobbyists who work for our car industry higher taxes and interests for ensurence, automobile club, several cars owning taxes, car badges for protecting environmental while you still can drive american Hummer cars which consume far more, those badges only new cars can get them while some older cars are less and less economical in fuel consumption and therefor not "environmental" friendly and that car badge terror was made to encourage so people buy more frequently new cars. They also made some several requirements to make it harder for asian car industries to sell their cars here. Tests german cars initially themselfs couldn't pass. The lobbys of our car industry getting sometimes really ridiculous.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:01 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Most of products are designed to break as much as possible. They are designed to hold only that long how long the countries allow warrantees to last like average 2 years of major products. That is called Planned Obsolence. That is how companies maximize their income by designing things to last only a short time so people need to repair or re-buy their stuff.

    In electronics industries there is even a special jobs in quality ensurence department that design wirings and circuit platines in that way that the circuites themselfs only last for ca. XXX hours total and break after that so people need to buy a new component for it. Apple for example is the biggest user of Planned obsolence for circuite platines and components and that is also the reason why most of their products are designed that way that their companies need to fix it.
    Very wise post.
    I own vintage Helios optics for my camera, they are made in 77 and quality of their image is impeccable. They are made out of stainless steel, they have accurate mechanics. And I own Nikkor cameras who cost 10x times more, but are made out of plastic.
    And I've noticed same thing with new cars.
    I owned plenty of 88 - 95 cars and they were more sturdier than cars made today. Hell even engines were much better in the good old days. German cars are shit these days Neutral

    I aggree. They are made to break down after 2 years so you are forced to go to a BMW/Mercedes/Audi or VW to their brand repair shop and buy same crappy spare parts you can buy online or some non brand car shop for a five times cheaper price. And the laws here in germany are often made in hand of lobbyists who work for our car industry higher taxes and interests for ensurence, automobile club, several cars owning taxes, car badges for protecting environmental while you still can drive american Hummer cars which consume far more, those badges only new cars can get them while some older cars are less and less economical in fuel consumption and therefor not "environmental" friendly and that car badge terror was made to encourage so people buy more frequently new cars. They also made some several requirements to make it harder for asian car industries to sell their cars here. Tests german cars initially themselfs couldn't pass. The lobbys of our car industry getting sometimes really ridiculous.

    This is also true with Japan's car market.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:05 am

    That is true with everything nowadays... - Very unfortunate, but it's all "for" the large corporations!  cry

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:18 am

    No, I know that the "made in China" goods of western/japanese company is quite OK. After all, these "in China" factories belongs to the western companies, submit under the standard of them. The western oligarchs at least have to make things which satisfy the minimum demands, in order to maintain its reputation. Their products are not as good as the propaganda, but at least the oil is sufficient to make a visible light.

    In the West people have high standard and strict examine to maintain the good quality of the products therefore you do not really worry about the quality. But in my country, low-quality, harmful, hazardous products of China are swarming the Vietnamese market. Many of the forbidden products including guns, dangetous "toys", close-combat weapons in the black market are from China. After all, Vietnam is next to China and the Vietnamese polices and customs are not as trong as in the West or Russia.

    Of course, the stereoptype of "low quality Chinese goods" are exaggerated and twisted by the propaganda system. But by my experience, at least 50% of the story is true.




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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:04 am

    Of course, the stereoptype of "low quality Chinese goods" are exaggerated and twisted by the propaganda system. But by my experience, at least 50% of the story is true.

    It is however an unfair comment to say that cheap Chinese goods are low quality... cheap western goods are generally low quality too... you tend to get what you pay for... except when you are paying for both quality AND a NAME... in which case you pay far too much for something that someone else could have made cheaper and just as high quality.

    In the past Russia and the Soviet Union was denied quality machine tools... now they have them and are actually in making some of their own the quality of even cheap simple stuff should be significantly raised. It will be the same in China... as they buy quality machine tooling.


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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Asf on Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:16 pm

    "low quality Chinese goods" 

    Chinese brands tend to be low quality, but things are changing. Say, Lenovo brand is quite good. It's just like german goods before WWI.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:52 pm

    Asf wrote:
    "low quality Chinese goods" 

    Chinese brands tend to be low quality, but things are changing. Say, Lenovo brand is quite good. It's just like german goods before WWI.
    Lenovo changed my perception of Chinese made and designed products for sure, they are some of the best laptops on the market!

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Asf on Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:56 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    Lenovo changed my perception of Chinese made and designed products for sure, they are some of the best laptops on the market!
    I'm using russian-designed and china-produced mobile phone on android, and it works perfect - fast, with a good display and several days of work battery. Who need iphones?)

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:59 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Lenovo changed my perception of Chinese made and designed products for sure, they are some of the best laptops on the market!
    I'm using russian-designed and china-produced mobile phone on android, and it works perfect - fast, with a good display and several days of work battery. Who need iphones?)
    What model? I'm here in the US, and use a Chinese-made, Taiwan-designed HTC One. (I hate iPhones!) 

    Anyway, I think Chinese made products are hating on for little reason. Many Americans "hate" Chinese products becuase "they are from the Chinese" and "they stole our jobs" etc.

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    Re: Russian Τank Βiathlon

    Post  Regular on Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:25 am

    Everything is made in China anyways. It only matters who owns the factory and how tough quality control is.
    Still metal works in China are sad to the bolts. I had rail system used for filming snap like it's spaghetti. Still Russia is good at metal works AFAIK, there well it used to be at least, I still remember CCCP made stuff Smile

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