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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Mistral had ice capabilities??
    you got a source for that?

    Russian Mistrals had ice strengthened hulls and taller roofs for operating in ice and for kamovs with coaxial main rotors.

    I see, so any future carrier will most likely have an ice strengthened hull as well, good to know.

    T-47

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  T-47 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:47 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    T-47 wrote:escort (not scort).

    I hope you be not one of those English monolinguals that think that everyone without a perfect English knows less than them.

    There is a world that can live perfectly without the English language.

    *Evil laughter* Huehuehue

    medo wrote:

    1. Tell this to Argentineans in Falkland war. They will not agree with you about Sea Harrier to be a shit in AA fight.
    2. Kuznetsov is in Northern fleet and Russia ordered Mistralsn with ice capabilities. Russian new carriers will have ice capabilities. They will not be icebreakers, but good enough tom operate in Arctic sea.

    1. Garry already wrote enough. Just add another point of quality and training of Argentine AF.
    2. You misunderstood my comment. Being in Northern fleet doesn't mean anything about Arctic capable ship. Sea around Murmasnk don't freeze due to the gulf stream. But around Dikson and beyond they do. Everytime Northern fleet ship had to go to Arctic they had ice breaker escorts (except in summer). If you want your ships (A/C or not doesn't matter) around Dikson or Franz Josef Island anytime around the year you need serious ice capabilities or ice breakers (also big ones).
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:17 pm

    Compare the Chinese Type 075 vs the project 22220 icebreaker.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_075_landing_helicopter_dock
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LK-60Ya-class_icebreaker


    I think it is quite obivous the icebreaker is more complex and expensive than the similar sized landing dock.

    Additionally, the US carriers are simple floating airports, there is no sonar/radar systems ( the radars on the Nimitz ships are salvaged from decommissioned destroyers), there is minimal air defence, and no attack capability.The hull is not reinforced , and not ice class.


    Other side the icebreakers has special double hull, with reinforcement on the front sections, all propulsion needs special arrangements, the full hull needs to be reinforced and ice capable ( the normal steel can snap in cold).
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    ZoA

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  ZoA on Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:01 pm

    To paraphrase Tolstoy all simple ships are alike, but each complex ships is complex in it's own way.

    Carriers / landing ships are complex in their own way as they require specially design deck and command and control facilities with specialist experiment for dealing with arresting and lunching aircraft. On another hand icebreaker has specially designed hull, ballast systems and propulsion to facilitate navigation true ice covered water surface. So as areas that need to be specially designed to perform their specific task are quite different there can not be direct comparison in complexity between the two. Icebreaker will have more complicated hull, ballast tanks and propulsion, carrier will have more complicated deck, superstructure and cargo (aircraft) manipulation equipment.

    If you want something more complicated then either imagine ice braking carriers. clown


    Last edited by ZoA on Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : basalt -> ballast)
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:27 pm

    ZoA wrote:To paraphrase Tolstoy all simple ships are alike, but each complex ships is complex in it's own way.

    Carriers / landing ships are complex in their own way as they require specially design deck and command and control facilities with specialist experiment for dealing with arresting and lunching aircraft. On another hand icebreaker has specially designed hull, basalt systems and propulsion to facilitate navigation true ice covered water surface. So as areas that need to be specially designed to perform their specific task are quite different there can not be direct comparison in complexity between the two. icebreaker will have more complicated hull, basalt tanks and propulsion, carrier will have more complicated deck, superstructure and cargo (aircraft) manipulation equipment.

    If you want something more complicated then either imagine ice braking carriers. clown

    The carrier requiring more sophisticated maintenance and aircraft handling organisation.
    As I see the main cost driver is NOT the deck/lift gears and equipment, but the accumulated skill of arresting/landing aircraft, moving them and as important to maintain all equipment to the required minimum level.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:08 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    ZoA wrote:To paraphrase Tolstoy all simple ships are alike, but each complex ships is complex in it's own way.

    Carriers / landing ships are complex in their own way as they require specially design deck and command and control facilities with specialist experiment for dealing with arresting and lunching aircraft. On another hand icebreaker has specially designed hull, basalt systems and propulsion to facilitate navigation true ice covered water surface. So as areas that need to be specially designed to perform their specific task are quite different there can not be direct comparison in complexity between the two. icebreaker will have more complicated hull, basalt tanks and propulsion, carrier will have more complicated deck, superstructure and cargo (aircraft) manipulation equipment.

    If you want something more complicated then either imagine ice braking carriers. clown

    The carrier requiring more sophisticated maintenance and aircraft handling organisation.
    As I see the main cost driver is NOT the deck/lift gears and equipment, but the accumulated skill of arresting/landing aircraft, moving them and as important to maintain all equipment to the required minimum level.

    If so then the question is do you need catapult? maybe not. Couple moths ago Borisov said about possible V/STOL fighter based on  YAK fighters.
    What about updated Yak-201?

    http://en.avia.pro/blog/yak-201

    https://plus.google.com/+%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8/posts/Q8Ady1taZyP

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:10 pm


    Dude we already get enough anime from Krylov, we don't need extra material... Suspect
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:25 pm

    Actually papa, the Russian mod hinted at possible brining back vtol depending if it works for them or not. And regardless what you think, yakovlev still designs and comes out with products (Yak-130, Yak-152). They provided technical knowledge for F-35 development unfortunately.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:37 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Actually papa, the Russian mod hinted at possible brining back vtol depending if it works for them or not. And regardless what you think, yakovlev still designs and comes out with products (Yak-130, Yak-152). They provided technical knowledge for F-35 development unfortunately.

    Given the pricetag I would say 'fortunately'

    And yes I know they are looking into VTOLs just that we should wait for some official material
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:48 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Actually papa, the Russian mod hinted at possible brining back vtol depending if it works for them or not. And regardless what you think, yakovlev still designs and comes out with products (Yak-130, Yak-152). They provided technical knowledge for F-35 development unfortunately.

    Given the pricetag I would say 'fortunately'

    And yes I know they are looking into VTOLs just that we should wait for some official material

    I say there is more of a chance for vtol and pocket jump jet carriers.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:30 am

    The problem really with that is that people think a smaller carrier is possible with VSTOL fighters on board and that somehow that will make the carrier cheaper.


    The fact of the matter is that a VSTOL fighter will be a whole level of magnitude more expensive than a conventional takeoff and arrested landing equivalent, so the money you save on a slightly smaller carrier, you spend on a much more expensive but also much less capable aircraft.

    The British won in the Falklands by the skin of their teeth.... if they had Phantoms and Buccaneers on the Ark Royal it would have been 100 times easier.... they could have operated much further out, had better warning and control and much better ground support and would not have had to waste time sending semi strategic bombers to hit the airfields before the ships got in range.

    Saving space on the carrier is a misnomer... the space you save means a smaller, less capable air group, made up of smaller less capable aircraft.

    If you take the Yak-141 and the MiG-29 in the Mid-1980s and compare them the MiG cleans up.... much cheaper, faster, longer range, better payload, bigger better radar. The engine on the Yak was enormous but its lift jets were dead weight except on take off and landing... it couldn't even operate from conventional runways because the engine damaged them on takeoff.

    I can't emphasise this enough a VSTOL aircraft is not just a plane with engine nozzles that can turn straight down to take off like a helicopter.

    It is seriously weight limited. It needs pipes to carry dangerous high pressure air to the nose, to each wing tip, and to the tail of the aircraft in addition to the air flow from the engines to be able to control the aircraft in the hover.

    The engines need to generate lift at the front and middle of the aircraft to balance it... which means a 360 degree IR signature the most primitive Strela would hit.... let alone modern thermal systems.

    All this high pressure hot air piping means terrible weight penalties and fragility... minor battle damage anywhere and it wont be able to land.

    There are books about the worlds most useless weapons... nunchucks and things... VSTOL fighters should be included... and that is all of them.

    The best bang for buck is a capable fixed wing fighter and a ship big enough to carry plenty and the fuel and resources to keep them operating for a while a good distance from home...


    Without the Hermes the British could not have contested the territory of the Falklands Islands... With the Ark Royal they probably would never have had to... but if they did they would have been rather more effective and efficient.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Dude we already get enough anime from Krylov, we don't need extra material...  Suspect  

    I thought you're more kawaii Surprised  as for Yaks lets assume 201 was int in design stadium we still have actual prototype Yak-141. And Borisov was talking about Yak V/STOL in context-of future A/C.  

    Ну что ж поживем увидим Razz



    GarryB wrote:The problem really with that is that people think a smaller carrier is possible with VSTOL fighters on board and that somehow that will make the carrier cheaper.


    The fact of the matter is that a VSTOL fighter will be a whole level of magnitude more expensive than a conventional takeoff and arrested landing equivalent, so the money you save on a slightly smaller carrier, you spend on a much more expensive but also much less capable aircraft.


    Saving space on the carrier is a misnomer... the space you save means a smaller, less capable air group, made up of smaller less capable aircraft.

    If you take the Yak-141 and the MiG-29 in the Mid-1980s and compare them the MiG cleans up.... much cheaper, faster, longer range, better payload, bigger better radar. The engine on the Yak was enormous but its lift jets were dead weight except on take off and landing... it couldn't even operate from conventional runways because the engine damaged them on takeoff.

    I can't emphasise this enough a VSTOL aircraft is not just a plane with engine nozzles that can turn straight down to take off like a helicopter.

    It is seriously weight limited. It needs pipes to carry dangerous high pressure air to the nose, to each wing tip, and to the tail of the aircraft in addition to the air flow from the engines to

    Not sure if cheaper, otherwise  Russian military leadership does  not see what authors of those books can see. This is a bit like criticism of  aircraft cruiser. Aircraft Cruiser is not optimal with large fleet, many bases and for sea control strategy.  For sea denial  where you have little bases, small amount of heavy vessel not necessairly.  Russia does not need for massive  air-air battles long range from deck - why if you have S-500 and S-400 and bunch of Zircons?  

    Besides you can achieve versatility.  With same budget you can build more "cruiser LHD" thne 1 or 2 large ones. Thyy can move marines and support landing or ASW role or air-wing support of own fleet in Arctic.  Of course i am speculating.   Me thinks that Russian MoD is considering series of smaller ships (smaller hulls 30-40kT)  which can be universal  and do not require enormous support groups as US flat-tops.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:52 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Dude we already get enough anime from Krylov, we don't need extra material...  Suspect  

    I thought you're more kawaii Surprised  as for Yaks lets assume 201 was int in design stadium we still have actual prototype Yak-141. And Borisov was talking about Yak V/STOL in context-of future A/C.  

    поживём увидим

    Russian have much more skills at building powerfull fighters able to operate from ski jump deck than VSTOL. In terms of capabilities a mig-29k is like 100 times better than a yak 141. In terms of cost a ski jump is just piece of metal nothing more ... they just need a modern carrier with more space on the deck and nuc propulsion. French charles de gaulles has smaller size but is optimized to be a true carrier and does de job better than K because K design is too heavy. Its modernization should be removing some stuff and adding nuc engines.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:50 am

    Russia does not need for massive air-air battles long range from deck - why if you have S-500 and S-400 and bunch of Zircons?

    Yeah, and modern fighters like Phantoms don't need guns any more because in this day and age the day of the AAM is dead.

    The reality is that you need to be able to fight in close as well as at arms length.

    Obviously it is nicer if you can sit 200km off shore and launch long range cruise missiles and defend yourself with 400 and 600km range SAMs, but as shown in the Iranian airbus shootdown if you are a ship... even with long range cruise missiles and long range SAMs when you spot a blip on the radar you can't tell really what is happening so you need to decide to shoot it down or not.... in this case they decided to shoot and ended up murdering over 200 people.

    With aircraft they could have sent an interceptor to investigate something suspicious in the air or on the water or on land.

    With just missiles you must just guess.

    Russians traditionally don't rely on aircraft alone so any future Russian carrier will have UKSK launchers which will give them the ability to deal with land targets and ships and subs... they will also be able to deal with aircraft as well with a proper air defence system.
    Future iterations of Zircon in an air launched model will mean an even more potent air attack capability but like its Army ti wont rely completely on aircraft for defence.

    The PAK FA is fully multirole which means as a naval aircraft it will be vastly more useful for a range of roles.

    Me thinks that Russian MoD is considering series of smaller ships (smaller hulls 30-40kT) which can be universal and do not require enormous support groups as US flat-tops.

    I agree, I don't think the US concept of super carrier... regime change special is what they are thinking.

    They are making their anti ship missiles multipurpose land attack missiles and the whole purpose of the universal launcher UKSK is to enhance the flexibility and multirole performance of their new vessels.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  eehnie on Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:18 am

    It is not easy to say what the Russian Armed Forces will do, but is a lot easier to say what will not do.

    The Russian Armed Forces will not order an aircraft carrier without the best available missiles or without the best available aircrafts. It means they will not order an aircraft carrier where the Su-57 can not operate comfortably. Neither will order an aircraft carrier that can not defeat aircraft carriers of other countries in 1 vs 1 situations.

    As consequence, today the Project 23000 is the alone option with a real chance.

    Technologically the design and development of a fighter aircraft is significantly more difficult and expensive than the design and development of an aircraft carrier. The option of small aircraft carrier + new fighter, being weaker militarily, is not viable economically vs the option of a big aircraft carrier compatible with aircrafts used by the Russian Aerospace Force.

    And for the type of missions the people is talking about here, Russia will continue having and sending the A Kuznetsov aircraft carrier.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:40 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    ZoA wrote:To paraphrase Tolstoy all simple ships are alike, but each complex ships is complex in it's own way.

    Carriers / landing ships are complex in their own way as they require specially design deck and command and control facilities with specialist experiment for dealing with arresting and lunching aircraft. On another hand icebreaker has specially designed hull, basalt systems and propulsion to facilitate navigation true ice covered water surface. So as areas that need to be specially designed to perform their specific task are quite different there can not be direct comparison in complexity between the two. icebreaker will have more complicated hull, basalt tanks and propulsion, carrier will have more complicated deck, superstructure and cargo (aircraft) manipulation equipment.

    If you want something more complicated then either imagine ice braking carriers. clown

    The carrier requiring more sophisticated maintenance and aircraft handling organisation.
    As I see the main cost driver is NOT the deck/lift gears and equipment, but the accumulated skill of arresting/landing aircraft, moving them and as important to maintain all equipment to the required minimum level.

    If so then the question is do you need catapult? maybe not. Couple moths ago Borisov said about possible V/STOL fighter based on  YAK fighters.
    What about updated Yak-201?

    http://en.avia.pro/blog/yak-201

    https://plus.google.com/+%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8/posts/Q8Ady1taZyP


    What is this image some kind of fake milatery news magazine? Why post it here?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  rrob on Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:08 am

    T
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:40 am

    The Ministry of Defense told about the development of aircraft-carrying cruisers



    The draft of the new state armament program of the Russian Federation envisages the development and laying of aircraft-carrying cruisers, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov told reporters.
    "Speaking specifically about aircraft-carrying cruisers, (their development and laying are scheduled for) the end of the program," Borisov said.

    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171123/1509477278.html

    So

    1) now light V/STOL fighter plans start to make sense

    2)  looks like new cruisers will have similar tasks as in Soviet items:  to chase US subs and protect ship grouping from enemy fighters/bombers (vide Arctic/Pacific near Kamchatka

    3) tke me guess universal VLS systems can carry both ZIrcon and AAD missiles.

    Sweet. Hate to repeat but didnt I tell ya lads? Razz Razz Razz
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:45 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:The Ministry of Defense told about the development of aircraft-carrying cruisers



    The draft of the new state armament program of the Russian Federation envisages the development and laying of aircraft-carrying cruisers, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov told reporters.
    "Speaking specifically about aircraft-carrying cruisers, (their development and laying are scheduled for) the end of the program," Borisov said.

    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171123/1509477278.html

    So

    1) now light V/STOL fighter plans start to make sense

    2)  looks like new cruisers will have similar tasks as in Soviet items:  to chase US subs and protect ship grouping from enemy fighters/bombers (vide Arctic/Pacific near Kamchatka

    3) tke me guess universal VLS systems can carry both ZIrcon and AAD missiles.

    Sweet. Hate to repeat but didnt I tell ya lads? Razz Razz Razz

    If this is true then it means they intend to go with more Kuz style warships, a move. I do support and think makes good sense.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:00 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    If this is true then it means they intend to go with more Kuz style warships, a move. I do support and think makes good sense.



    Unless recently elected The head of the Committee on Defense and Security of the Council of Federation Bondarev was joking then true... Laughing
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:08 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    If this is true then it means they intend to go with more Kuz style warships, a move. I do support and think makes good sense.



    Unless recently elected The head of the Committee on Defense and Security of the Council of Federation Bondarev was joking then true... Laughing

    It's more just because the guy said doesn't mean it will become reality, guys like him say many things that never happen.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:47 am

    '
    Makes perfect sense. Been saying it all along. Anti-sub work is absolute priority.

    Take Avalanche class LHD, install reactors, sonars and UKSK launchers, park VTOL aircraft on it and you are good to go.

    No need to reinvent the wheel.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:56 am

    PapaDragon wrote:'
    Makes perfect sense. Been saying it all along. Anti-sub work is absolute priority.

    Take Avalanche class LHD, install reactors, sonars and UKSK launchers, park VTOL aircraft on it and you are good to go.

    No need to reinvent the wheel.

    aka  form follows  function. Same as in Soviet times. Only technology advanced.  BTW such a ship with strong AAD/ASW capabilities is a perfect company for bunch of Karakurts. They keep US Aircraft Carriers at bay and Cruiser covers group with  anti sub and anti aircraft umbrella



    \
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    It's more just because the guy said doesn't mean it will become reality, guys like him say many things that never happen.

    True. But t is not the first time he said about aircraft carrying cruisers. But first time when he said that this is in planned budget.

    Firebird

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Firebird on Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:21 pm

    When people say "save money, build smaller carriers", I can't help but think they've lost the key to what its all about.

    Russia estimated the cost of a new supercarrier at between 3 and 9bn USD before the Ruble sank. But the big cost isn't size. Its how advanced the carrier is. Does it allow for satellite launches? Large planes? Super advanced electronics? Act as a base for drones and underwater drones?

    The US actually looked at building more smaller carriers - the "don't have all your eggs in one basket" argument. But it decided it was too expesnive.

    If a 5th rate power like Britain can have 2 large carriers, as can France, China and India, there is no reason why Russia can't.

    The trick is in seeing that the funds are efficiently used. For instance, sharing development with India and China, maybe even an ASEAN bloc aircraft carrier? And building the Eurasian Union and trade/military arrangements around the World. I also wonder if a new supercarrier could have a "semi civillian" use in peacetime.

    Whatever some people say, I'm sure most superarmies had soldiers on semi civillian projects. China does to this day, as does N Korea. And I'm sure the Soviet Union did. America claims it doesn't because of its bogus "free market" ideology claims. Yet we all know how private investors are milking the US arms budget to death!

    PS I had a look to see the largest plane ever to land on a carrier. It was a C130 Hercules in the early 1960s (on many occasions). So I wonder, how about using Russia's would be "spare" supercarrier as a "staging post" for jets in some area they are required to land for refuelling?
    OK it may sound a bit weird, but slightly different ideas are what makes expensive projects turn into potential money spinners!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:04 pm

    '
    It's not about the price, it's about the fact that Russia simply doesn't need supercarriers.

    All potential hotspots are easily accessible by land or air and those few that might pop up that aren't can easily be handled by several aircraft carrying cruisers. Those situations will always be anomaly for Russia.

    Meanwhile anti sub missions will always be top priority.

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