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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    hoom

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:15 am

    an aircraft carrier is simpler and easier to manufacture than an icebreaker
    I think you're grossly underestimating the complexity of a Carrier Shocked
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:34 am

    hoom wrote:Yeah, I kinda like the idea of essentially a new-build Vikramaditya sunny

    Not as wow-factor as a big 100k beast or even K size but V shows it can work, the price would be much lower & its a much more attainable first-step.
    There are probably a bunch of things that could be easily improved vs V on a new build.

    Start with 2*, both to Pacific fleet, see how they work out or 1* each if desperate to replace K, then either switch up to 100k or build another 2*.

    There is pros and cons to your approach.

    That one 100k carrier will need to be refueled etc and during that time Russia is left without an AC in that fleet.

    Where have if you build two carriers you can have one active and one undergoing refit/refuel.

    Then rotate them out. You cannot just have one carrier in today's age you need AT LEAST 2.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:46 am

    I want to see them do something very left field...

    A triple hull carrier with a small central hull with pod engines and nuclear powerplants and two outrigger hulls, one on either side with two angled landing strips and four straight take off strips on each side... and emal cats...


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:I want to see them do something very left field...

    A triple hull carrier with a small central hull with pod engines and nuclear powerplants and two outrigger hulls, one on either side with two angled landing strips and four straight take off strips on each side... and emal cats...

    Nuclear propulsion and EM catapults are a given but hull will definitely be conventional.

    I am still convinced that end product will be something similar in size to Wasp or America class with reactors, catapults and ski ramp (just in case).

    There isn't a task that RU Navy would be required to do that would demand anything larger. And if they do come into situation where they need larger number of aircraft they can simply send two ACs instead of just one.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:46 pm

    hoom wrote:
    an aircraft carrier is simpler and easier to manufacture than an icebreaker
    I think you're grossly underestimating the complexity of a Carrier Shocked

    US carriers:
    Nimitz class: 8.4 billion $
    super hornet : 84 million $
    1 Nimitz = 100 super hornet

    UK carriers:
    Elizabeth : 4 billion $
    Super hornet : 84 million
    1 Elizabeth = 50 Super Hornet

    Russian ice breaker:
    LK-60Ya - 44 billion rouble
    Su-34 - 1 billion rouble
    one LK-60Ya = 40 su34


    LK-110Ya - 59 billion rouble
    One LK-110Ya = 59 Su34


    The queen Elizabeth 70 000 tonnes , the LK-60Ya 35 000 tonnes.

    The next gen LK-110Ya will be 55 600 tonnes, and the cost will be higher than the Elizabeth .

    So, yes, the LK-110Ya will be more complicated and expensive ship than a Queen Elizabeth class carrier.

    It will be easier to make a carrier than the super mega ice breaker.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:00 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    an aircraft carrier is simpler and easier to manufacture than an icebreaker
    I think you're grossly underestimating the complexity of a Carrier Shocked

    US carriers:
    Nimitz class: 8.4 billion $
    super hornet : 84 million $
    1 Nimitz = 100 super hornet

    UK carriers:
    Elizabeth : 4 billion $
    Super hornet : 84 million
    1 Elizabeth = 50 Super Hornet

    Russian ice breaker:
    LK-60Ya - 44 billion rouble
    Su-34 - 1 billion rouble
    one LK-60Ya  = 40 su34


    LK-110Ya - 59 billion rouble
    One LK-110Ya = 59 Su34


    The queen Elizabeth 70 000 tonnes , the LK-60Ya 35 000 tonnes.

    The next gen LK-110Ya will be 55 600 tonnes, and the cost will be higher than the Elizabeth .

    So, yes, the LK-110Ya will be more complicated and expensive ship than a Queen Elizabeth class carrier.

    It will be easier to make a carrier than the super mega ice breaker.

    44B Ruble in dollars at the very best exchange rate equals 71,289,118M. you are freaking out of your damn mind if you think the Russians can build a carrier for 72M dollars. No nation on earth can do that.

    also the LK-110Ya more expensive than the Queen Elizabeth class? in what reality lala land? You clearly don;t know anything about rubles to dollars which shows how well your little Carrier easy to produce then Ice breaker theory holds up.

    Also size means nothing in terms of ship complexity how you have to put the darn thing together what goes into it.

    A carrier is not easier to make than an ice breaker and saying that only shows how little you know about the construction of carriers and warships. But hey let's strap VLs to an ice breaker and call it "mighty destroyer".

    PS 59 billion Rubles = around 100m US dollars.

    So tell me in what earth is 100M more than 4B
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    hoom

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:12 pm

    There is pros and cons to your approach.
    Indeed, emphasis on starting out with 2 smaller ones.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:39 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    44B Ruble in dollars at the very best exchange rate equals 71,289,118M. you are freaking out of your damn mind if you think the Russians can build a carrier for 72M dollars. No nation on earth can do that.

    also the LK-110Ya more expensive than the Queen Elizabeth class? in what reality lala land? You clearly don;t know anything about rubles to dollars which shows how well your little Carrier easy to produce then Ice breaker theory holds up.

    Also size means nothing in terms of ship complexity how you have to put the darn thing together what goes into it.

    A carrier is not easier to make than an ice breaker and saying that only shows how little you know about the construction of carriers and warships. But hey let's strap VLs to an ice breaker and call it "mighty destroyer".

    PS 59 billion Rubles = around 100m US dollars.

    So tell me in what earth is 100M more than 4B


    Cost of the AP100 reactor is 8 billion $ , the BN-800 prototype cost 140 billion rouble .

    Considering that the BN800 is a prototype the ratio between them was 6-8.
    The same like between the queen Elizabeth and the hypothetical Russian carrier.

    The VVER1200 cost 65 billion rouble .

    So, 100 billion should be the cost of a super carrier with nuclear propulsion and catapults.

    The USB /rouble exchange rate is quite non-realistic, the normal one can be somewhere around 14 .

    Time to invest into russia : )
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:18 pm

    Apart from financial considerations. Why Russia should build super-duper-mega aircraft carriers? to counter US ones?  very inefficient way. Yasens, Karakurts and Zircons or Tu-22m with Kh-32 are for those purposes.

    Land striking capabilities? salvo of Kalibrs isnt as effective asfree fall bombs dropped from expensive jet?

    IMHO Russia is about first to achieve sea denial abilities. And AC might be needed for covering areas where own subs operate (i.e. Arctic) or to accompany ships for "humanitarian style operations"  in Africa/Asia .

    So first I can see fighters needed.  And for me news about possible resuming V/STOL fighter program is not a coincidence. So funny way it might be that concep of Heavy Aircraft Carrying Cruiser is not so much dead after all...



    Opps re-edited update

    Russia to start building new aircraft carrier by 2025
    Military & Defense August 24, 14:35 UTC+3


    The Russian Navy earlier said that it intended to get a perspective aircraft carrier with a nuclear-powered propulsion unit by late 2030
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    KUBINKA (Moscow Region), August 24. /TASS/. The construction of a new aircraft carrier for Russia’s Navy is planned to begin by 2025, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Thursday.
    "I can confirm that the state armament program envisages plans at the program’s finish, by 2025, to start building a new aircraft carrier and developing a new aircraft for it," the deputy defense minister said at the Army-2017 international military and technical forum in the Patriot Park outside Moscow.

    The Russian Navy earlier stated it intended to get a perspective aircraft carrier with a nuclear-powered propulsion unit by late 2030. The deputy defense minister earlier said the contract for building the aircraft carrier might be signed by late 2025.
    The same deputy defense minister said at the recent MAKS airshow outside Moscow that the Defense Ministry was discussing plans with aircraft-building industry contractors to develop an aircraft with vertical take-off and landing for a future aircraft carrier. The fighter jet is expected to further develop the family of vertical take-off planes made by the Yakovlev Company.
    According to Head of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Yuri Slyusar, the company has not yet received any technical assignment for such aircraft.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/961820
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:44 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    44B Ruble in dollars at the very best exchange rate equals 71,289,118M. you are freaking out of your damn mind if you think the Russians can build a carrier for 72M dollars. No nation on earth can do that.


    ops, and your calculation was bad.
    44B Rouble is 710 million $.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:10 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    44B Ruble in dollars at the very best exchange rate equals 71,289,118M. you are freaking out of your damn mind if you think the Russians can build a carrier for 72M dollars. No nation on earth can do that.


    ops, and your calculation was bad.
    44B Rouble is 710 million $.

    My numbers got corrected by a device, I sometimes miss that yes 44b is 700 mill and 59b ruble is around one bill USD.

    That said. you are still wrong.

    "So, yes, the LK-110Ya will be more complicated and expensive ship than a Queen Elizabeth class carrier"

    One Bill is four times smaller than 4

    Ice breakers again aren't more complicated than carriers and if you continue to push this narrative you are only showing how clueless you are to ship building.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:21 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    44B Ruble in dollars at the very best exchange rate equals 71,289,118M. you are freaking out of your damn mind if you think the Russians can build a carrier for 72M dollars. No nation on earth can do that.


    ops, and your calculation was bad.
    44B Rouble is 710 million $.

    My numbers got corrected by a device, I sometimes miss that yes 44b is 700 mill and 59b ruble is around one bill USD.

    That said. you are still wrong.

    "So, yes, the LK-110Ya will be more complicated and expensive ship than a Queen Elizabeth class carrier"

    One Bill is four times smaller than 4

    Ice breakers again aren't more complicated than carriers and if you continue to push this narrative you are only showing how clueless you are to ship building.


    I gave to you comparable numbers from similar projects, like NPPs , fighter jets and ship cost ratios.

    But all that you give only faith in you digital words up to this point.

    If I get it right you are right, because you saying this, and because you saying this , you can not be wrong, because you is you : O


    Can you support same more compelling evidence to support your words?
    Say compare the cost of Rossiya with same similar vintage warship or carrier?


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    George1

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:10 pm

    More Details Revealed About Russia's New Aircraft Carrier Project

    Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard with no limits on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships can be used for work on the new aircraft carrier, according to the Russian Defense Ministry.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's new aircraft carrier might be built at Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard, which will be ready by 2020, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Tuesday.

    "We no longer have any limitations on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships that we can construct there [at Zvezda shipyard]… If we attempt to build the military's favorite ship, I mean, an aircraft carrier, then we can build it there [at the shipyard] as well," Rogozin said.

    At the same time, the deputy prime minister indicated that the site for the new aircraft carrier's construction would be decided upon by the Russian Defense Ministry.

    Rogozin also indicated that the dry dock would be 114 meters (374 feet) wide and would accommodate the construction of tankers with tonnages of up to 350,000 tons and of "Arctic gas carriers" which will have tonnages of up to 250,000 tons.

    As for today, the Russian Navy's only aircraft carrier is the Admiral Kuznetsov. The modernization of the aircraft carrier is scheduled for 2018. As for Russia's new aircraft carrier, its construction is planned to begin by 2025, when the state rearmament program terminates.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201709051057099614-aircraft-carrier-zvezda-shipyard/


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:35 pm


    I know I will start another flame war but still I'll just say it:

    This here is what Russia requires.

    Some tweaks of course: it needs nuclear reactor, catapult, diagonal ''landing strip'' (don't know name) in the back and mast moved to the side.

    But size-wise this is spot on:

    T-47

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  T-47 on Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:05 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:diagonal ''landing strip''

    Very Happy I like the name. (Its angled deck btw)

    And I also have certain comments regarding this, but I'll just stay out of the war Razz
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:10 pm

    Time for Russia to put their big boy pants on.
    The Kuz isn't pulling its weight at all, wasting far too many resources in manning and maintaining.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:17 pm

    George1 wrote:More Details Revealed About Russia's New Aircraft Carrier Project

    Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard with no limits on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships can be used for work on the new aircraft carrier, according to the Russian Defense Ministry.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's new aircraft carrier might be built at Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard, which will be ready by 2020, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Tuesday.

    "We no longer have any limitations on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships that we can construct there [at Zvezda shipyard]… If we attempt to build the military's favorite ship, I mean, an aircraft carrier, then we can build it there [at the shipyard] as well," Rogozin said.

    At the same time, the deputy prime minister indicated that the site for the new aircraft carrier's construction would be decided upon by the Russian Defense Ministry.

    Rogozin also indicated that the dry dock would be 114 meters (374 feet) wide and would accommodate the construction of tankers with tonnages of up to 350,000 tons and of "Arctic gas carriers" which will have tonnages of up to 250,000 tons.

    As for today, the Russian Navy's only aircraft carrier is the Admiral Kuznetsov. The modernization of the aircraft carrier is scheduled for 2018. As for Russia's new aircraft carrier, its construction is planned to begin by 2025, when the state rearmament program terminates.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201709051057099614-aircraft-carrier-zvezda-shipyard/

    So, all those claiming that Russia had not the shipyards to build the Project 23000 Aircraft Carriers have here the official answer. They were wrong. Shipyards ready by 2020. In fact by 2019 when the pilot ship will be finnished.

    Taking into account that the options would be:

    1) Project 23000

    2) Project ????? (small) + totally new aircraft

    The option of lower cost and shorter timeline is clear. Very clear. The option 1.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I know I will start another flame war but still I'll just say it:

    This here is what Russia requires.

    Some tweaks of course: it needs nuclear reactor, catapult, diagonal ''landing strip'' (don't know name) in the back and mast moved to the side.

    But size-wise this is spot on:

    Those size requirement are kinda strict, but ok,
    After looking around a bit, the ship that comes close would be the INS Vikrant, currently under construction in India, or perhaps even the French De Gaulle class (although it doesn't follow Russian A/C design principles).

    IMO, Russia, will most likely go with a modern Kuznetsov-like design.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:52 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    I know I will start another flame war but still I'll just say it:

    This here is what Russia requires.

    Some tweaks of course: it needs nuclear reactor, catapult, diagonal ''landing strip'' (don't know name) in the back and mast moved to the side.

    But size-wise this is spot on:
    ...................

    Those size requirement are kinda strict, but ok,
    After looking around a bit, the ship that comes close would be the INS Vikrant, currently under construction in India, or perhaps even the French De Gaulle class (although it doesn't follow Russian A/C design principles).

    IMO, Russia, will most likely go with a modern Kuznetsov-like design.

    Well in this day and age you can build smaller carrier that hauls as much aircraft as Kuznetzov does. Technology and design moved on since 70's.

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:51 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    I know I will start another flame war but still I'll just say it:

    This here is what Russia requires.

    Some tweaks of course: it needs nuclear reactor, catapult, diagonal ''landing strip'' (don't know name) in the back and mast moved to the side.

    But size-wise this is spot on:
    ...................

    Those size requirement are kinda strict, but ok,
    After looking around a bit, the ship that comes close would be the INS Vikrant, currently under construction in India, or perhaps even the French De Gaulle class (although it doesn't follow Russian A/C design principles).

    IMO, Russia, will most likely go with a modern Kuznetsov-like design.

    Well in this day and age you can build smaller carrier that hauls as much aircraft as Kuznetzov does. Technology and design moved on since 70's.


    True, although by that logic, you can also build a similar sized carrier hauling even more aircraft than the current one does, and room for a good number of VLSs to boot.
    Decision, decisions.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:59 am

    KiloGolf wrote:The Kuz isn't pulling its weight at all, wasting far too many resources in manning and maintaining.

    WTF are you prattling about now? Define "too many"?

    Not "pulling her weight".... Not sure if you're aware of this, but Russia is in peacetime, and the K doesn't actually have anything specific to do currently? Her recent foray to Syria wasn't actually required from an operational POV, but was more of a flag-waver and a chance to trial her and her crew & air detachment in real world combat conditions. By all accounts it was very successful for gaining some experience, running a good number of combat sorties, and most importantly, highlighted some shortcomings which can now be addressed.

    Your endless pessimism gets on my fucking nerves. I think you are definitely "pulling your weight", if'n ya get my drift...
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:14 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Those size requirement are kinda strict, but ok,
    After looking around a bit, the ship that comes close would be the INS Vikrant, currently under construction in India, or perhaps even the French De Gaulle class (although it doesn't follow Russian A/C design principles).

    IMO, Russia, will most likely go with a modern Kuznetsov-like design.
    Well in this day and age you can build smaller carrier that hauls as much aircraft as Kuznetzov does. Technology and design moved on since 70's.
    True, although by that logic, you can also build a similar sized carrier hauling even more aircraft than the current one does, and room for a good number of VLSs to boot.
    Decision, decisions.
    I tend to agree that 2-3 examples of 60-65kT modernized Kuznetsovs would be Russia's best bet, fitted with nuclear propulsion and current multi role weaponry and sensors suitable for an independent capital ship. A 100kT+ leviathan can come later, but even then, UKSK and layered AA is a must, even if at the expense of some of her air complement. The US can build a fleet of virtually defenseless flat-tops as she has no shortage of guided missile escorts, but Russia doesn't have the available screening escorts to allow them to adopt the US battle-barge approach.

    Mind you, with the state of advancement of guided ballistic weapons, hypersonic missiles and sensor fusion technologies, big unwieldy carriers will be become progressively far more difficult to defend. Putting all your eggs in one basket may work when pitted against small-fish in developing nations, but against peer-competitors? If you want to plan for fighting the USN in some future conflict, spreading your capabilities across multiple hulls is a better strategy.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:37 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    I tend to agree that 2-3 examples of 60-65kT modernized Kuznetsovs would be Russia's best bet, fitted with nuclear propulsion and current multi role weaponry and sensors suitable for an independent capital ship.  A 100kT+ leviathan can come later, but even then, UKSK and layered AA is a must, even if at the expense of some of her air complement.  The US can build a fleet of virtually defenseless flat-tops as she has no shortage of guided missile escorts, but Russia doesn't have the available screening escorts to allow them to adopt the US battle-barge approach.

    Mind you, with the state of advancement of guided ballistic weapons, hypersonic missiles and sensor fusion technologies, big unwieldy carriers will be become progressively far more difficult to defend.  Putting all your eggs in one basket may work when pitted against small-fish in developing nations, but against peer-competitors?  If you want to plan for fighting the USN in some future conflict, spreading your capabilities across multiple hulls is a better strategy.

    More smaller ships? yes. Striking capabilities? yes. But IMHO It will be rather more 30-40kT ships Universal. I.e. either AC role with VSTOL fighters -/ ASW helos or peacekeeping /landing support with helos drones.
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    kvs

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  kvs on Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:27 am

    Unlike the USA, Russia does not have defenseless 3rd world governments it needs to keep in line. Syria was an anomaly and
    as mentioned repeatedly, there was no actual need for an aircraft carrier. So what is the "pulling of the weight" here? What mission
    do Russian aircraft carriers have? To spread taxpayer money to the shipbuilders? No mission means no use.

    If Russia thinks it needs aircraft carriers then it should build a couple of nuclear powered, missile stacked Kuznetsov variants. One
    for the Atlantic/Mediterranean and one for the Pacific. At least the missiles can basically convert these carriers into modern
    destroyers.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:52 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:More smaller ships? yes. Striking capabilities? yes. But IMHO It will be rather more 30-40kT ships  Universal. I.e. either AC role with VSTOL fighters -/ ASW helos or peacekeeping /landing support with helos drones.

    VSTOL? Pfffttt... that ship has sailed in the 80s. I can't imagine todays Russia spending resources to develop a modern multi-role VSTOL fighter. The US has done so, but only because they had already a massive investment in small assault carriers for the USMC and they needed a replacement for the near-obsolete Harrier derivatives.

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