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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    Firebird

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Firebird on Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:12 pm

    When people say "Russia is a land power and doesn't need lots of aircraft carriers" I think they miss the point.

    Look back 1990 and see how many carriers the USSR/Russia had or had planned. The Kuznetsov's class, its predecessor (total of 6 carriers) and the helicopter carriers (total of 2). And 3 Ulyanovsk carriers being planned or built in 1990. Fast forward to 2017 and it would be pretty similar to what the US has. There would also be Yak VTOL aircraft for these carriers and probably more helicopter carriers/amphibious assault ships to carry them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union

    Look at the Syria situation. America planned to take over Syria and build pipelines across it. Thereby being able to force Europe to take Middle Eastern gas and not Russian gas. Russia uses the Kuznetsov as part of its efforts to settle Syria. But ofcourse the K isn't ideal for such a job. You could say the same about the defence of Serbia back in the 1990s. And many other examples.

    A maritime ability aids in land defence and it aids in the geopolitical aspects of a land power's abilities. So I wonder how long increased naval air power will take. Perhaps the first stage is a good sized fleet of heli carriers. After all Russia's naval top brass were clear in their views. Once subs start firing their missiles in a major conflict, they give away their position. And risk vulnerability to air/other attack.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:26 pm

    What happens if Russia has more advnced submarine detection equipment than the helicopter carriers?

    Firebird

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Firebird on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:55 am

    Well the problem isn't detecting a major enemy's sub fleet.
    Its the fact that a major enemy's air power (choppers etc) could go hunting Russian subs after they've announced their position ie by firing large missile salvos. There's a quote by snr Russian naval top brass somewhere saying this.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:35 pm

    Firebird wrote:Well the problem isn't detecting a major enemy's sub fleet.
    Its the fact that a major enemy's air power (choppers etc) could go hunting Russian subs after they've announced their position ie by firing large missile salvos. There's a quote by snr Russian naval top brass somewhere saying this.

    You can use long range SAM missiles to kill that helicopters.

    The anti sub platforms are helicopters and big airplanes usually, means nearly anything can shoot them down.

    But I think it is a cost / benefti analysis.

    You can distrribute the firepower between small ships, with medium (100-150km) missiles, or few big ship with long range missiles/aircrafts.

    Qestion is how much money you spend to cover the same area.

    But Russia has a big ice overed area, so the submarines are quite safe from anything practicaly.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Isos on Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:58 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Firebird wrote:Well the problem isn't detecting a major enemy's sub fleet.
    Its the fact that a major enemy's air power (choppers etc) could go hunting Russian subs after they've announced their position ie by firing large missile salvos. There's a quote by snr Russian naval top brass somewhere saying this.

    You can use long range SAM missiles to kill that helicopters.

    The anti sub platforms are  helicopters and big airplanes usually, means nearly anything can shoot them down.

    But I think it is a cost / benefti analysis.

    You can distrribute the firepower between small ships, with medium (100-150km) missiles, or few big ship with long range missiles/aircrafts.

    Qestion is how much money you spend to cover the same area.

    But Russia has a big ice overed area, so the submarines are quite safe from anything practicaly.

    Helicopters can be detected by sonars, future sub will have modern air defence missiles with lock on after lunch capability an should be able to destroy helicopters from 20-30 km. German are already devloping one like that based on the IRST missile.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:58 pm

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:54 pm


    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    JohninMK

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:17 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.
    They don't have an operational requirement for it yet either. Much better to let the World's debt crisis settle down over the next few years first.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:38 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    According to the Maritime Doctrine 2015 of the Russian Federation, a project of Aircraft Carrier will be ready by 2020. I quoted it several times in this forum. Likely also in this topic.

    Now we know at least one of the future "aircraft carriers" (quoting the document) will be of the Project 23000. Something that I discussed also here, and finally is confirmed to be right.

    The production of the first unit will begin then (around 2020), according again with the cited document. And is not clear still but I expect can be ready by the end of 2025, to be in the Top of the generation of Russian armament developed in the First Quarter of the Century.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:59 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    They might lay it in 2020+ but it then wont be completed in at least 8 or even 10 years. Squadrons in that case would need to start forming in 2020. at least. When its about escort, seems it would fall completely on Nakhimov and Grigorovich class as nothing else adequate is on horizont till Lider comes (if).
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    Militarov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:00 am

    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    According to the Maritime Doctrine 2015 of the Russian Federation, a project of Aircraft Carrier will be ready by 2020. I quoted it several times in this forum. Likely also in this topic.

    Now we know at least one of the future "aircraft carriers" (quoting the document) will be of the Project 23000. Something that I discussed also here, and finally is confirmed to be right.

    The production of the first unit will begin then (around 2020), according again with the cited document. And is not clear still but I expect can be ready by the end of 2025, to be in the Top of the generation of Russian armament developed in the First Quarter of the Century.

    5 years for P.23000? Not even in craziest dreams.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:02 am

    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    They might lay it in 2020+ but it then wont be completed in at least 8 or even 10 years. Squadrons in that case would need to start forming in 2020. at least. When its about escort, seems it would fall completely on Nakhimov and Grigorovich class as nothing else adequate is on horizont till Lider comes (if).

    2020 no way I have heard the Russians make these kinds of claims before, they cannot lay it down in 2020 just not possible.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:03 am

    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    According to the Maritime Doctrine 2015 of the Russian Federation, a project of Aircraft Carrier will be ready by 2020. I quoted it several times in this forum. Likely also in this topic.

    Now we know at least one of the future "aircraft carriers" (quoting the document) will be of the Project 23000. Something that I discussed also here, and finally is confirmed to be right.

    The production of the first unit will begin then (around 2020), according again with the cited document. And is not clear still but I expect can be ready by the end of 2025, to be in the Top of the generation of Russian armament developed in the First Quarter of the Century.


    Disregard this post

    Misread his post my mistake thought he meant the carrier when talking about DD


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Militarov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:04 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    They might lay it in 2020+ but it then wont be completed in at least 8 or even 10 years. Squadrons in that case would need to start forming in 2020. at least. When its about escort, seems it would fall completely on Nakhimov and Grigorovich class as nothing else adequate is on horizont till Lider comes (if).

    2020 no way I have heard the Russians make these kinds of claims before, they cannot lay it down in 2020 just not possible.

    Few years back there were claims carrier will be laid down in 2018. and we are basically there. So always take it with shovel of salt, however 2020... well idk, maybe. But i dont expect it to happen before mid 2020s personally. I wouldnt mind if it happened tomorrow, however there is no infrastructure, money or...well.. anything, for such feat.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:07 am

    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    No they are developing the plans by 2025. They will not start construction of the thing until at earliest 2027 and this thing would take a good decade going by Russi'a build rates to even hit the water.

    You are crazy if you think Russia going to lay down a carrier of this size in even 2025.

    They have no escorts for it and no bases suitable for it. A carrier of this size does not exist on it's own. None of the support structure is up, the figthers wings havenb't even been started.

    If Russia planned to lay it down they would have started on everything lese they need first for it and they haven't.

    They might lay it in 2020+ but it then wont be completed in at least 8 or even 10 years. Squadrons in that case would need to start forming in 2020. at least. When its about escort, seems it would fall completely on Nakhimov and Grigorovich class as nothing else adequate is on horizont till Lider comes (if).

    2020 no way I have heard the Russians make these kinds of claims before, they cannot lay it down in 2020 just not possible.

    Few years back there were claims carrier will be laid down in 2018. and we are basically there. So always take it with shovel of salt, however 2020... well idk, maybe. But i dont expect it to happen before mid 2020s personally. I wouldnt mind if it happened tomorrow, however there is no infrastructure, money or...well.. anything, for such feat.

    Why I expect 2025:

    - Russia is working on this project since decent time, and only is making now public what was in their mind since long time.
    - This is a key project.
    - I tend to think that the project of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier will be finished earlier than in 2020.
    - The works on the shipyard will begin as fast as possible if are not being done somewhere at this point.
    - It is in the interest of Russia to assure the own capability of production of all the types of combat ships as fast as possible. It means that for Russia is more important to finnish the first unit of every type of ship than to build 6 or 8 ships of a single project.
    - The fleet of combat ships of the Russian Navy has very few old ships, and I expect very low number of decommissions by 2025.
    - Also the fleet of combat ships comes from a process of reduction, and is reaching a situation of balance in the number of ships of the fleet.
    - The two previous points combined mean low number of new ships commissioned until 2025 to replace the decommissions or for new roles.
    - Russia has ordered and in production an entire fleet of war ships of medium and small size.
    - The combination of the previous points means that Russia will order very few ships in the following State Armament Program 2018-2025. It will be very few orders of very few ships and the work force will tend to concentrate on them.
    - After 2025, it is very likely to see the number of decommissions of veteran ships increasing significantly.
    - And as consequence the number of new ships to replace them will increase significantly likely with a good number of the ships that are ordered and in slow production at this point.
    - All it opens a window for the production of the first unit of the Project 23000, of the new amphibious assault ship, and of the Project 23560 Cruiser/Destroyer in the State Armament Program 2018-2025.
    - The people is not understanding that the current low rythm of production of new ships and the long periods of production are in agreement with the interest of Russia, not by lack of capability.

    About the escort of the new aircraft carriers, Russia has today enough ships of all the necessary sizes for it. In the 1980s the current Crusers and Destroyers were produced also to escort Aircraft Carriers. Maybe improved, of course, and will be improved, but there is a fleet of escorting ships to begin with.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:38 am

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2631p575-future-russian-aircraft-carriers#191117

    eehnie wrote:The Russian maritime doctrine of 2015 say this:

    http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50060

    Russian Federation Marine Doctrine

    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.

    July 26, 2015 16:00Baltiisk
    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
    1 of 3
    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
    The meeting took place on board the frigate Admiral of the Soviet Navy Gorshkov. Participants included Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, Commander of the Navy Viktor Chirkov, and Commander of the Western Military District Anatoly Sidorov.

    * * *

    President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Colleagues, good afternoon.

    We have been updating the Russian Federation’s Marine Doctrine. This very complex document’s main aim is to provide our country with an integral, consistent and effective naval policy that will protect Russia’s interests.

    The Doctrine has been drafted and approved. This is a big event for our future navy, and for developing our shipbuilding industry, because the main customer – the navy in this case, and the Defence Ministry – formulate their future needs, and the industry must carry out these tasks. Industry adapts to new tasks depending on the needs formulated.

    Let me note that for the first time, the Doctrine also includes provisions of a purely social nature. They cover marine medicine, and provisions for improving the health of sailors and the specialists working in the marine field. This is very important. People need to know that from now on, our strategic documents for developing our country’s fleet and navy will address the social aspect too, and will give people what they expect from their service, as they carry out the tasks that face our country today in this very complex and important area.

    Let’s now discuss in more detail the Doctrine’s key provisions. Mr Rogozin, you have the floor.

    Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin: Thank you.

    Mr President,

    This new draft of the Russian Federation Marine Doctrine is a fundamental document of key importance, setting out our country’s naval policy. In other words, it is one of our country’s strategic planning documents.

    The Russian Government’s Marine Board undertook the document’s drafting, with the navy playing the leading role in this work. In all, 15 federal executive agencies and organisations took part in drafting the new Doctrine.

    We proposed making changes to the Marine Doctrine adopted back in 2001 for the period through to 2020 for two reasons: above all, the changing international situation; and, of course, strengthening Russia’s position as a sea power.

    The Marine Doctrine covers four functional areas and six regional areas. The four functional areas are naval activity, marine transport, marine science, and mineral resources development. The six regional areas are the Atlantic, Arctic, Pacific, Caspian, and Indian Ocean, and we have added Antarctica, as a fair number of events involving Antarctica have taken place of late and this region is of considerable interest to Russia.

    The main focus is on two areas: the Arctic and the Atlantic. The reasons for this are the following. We emphasise the Atlantic because NATO has been developing actively of late and coming closer to our borders, and Russia is of course responding to these developments.

    The second reason is that Crimea and Sevastopol have been reunited with Russia and we need to take measures for their rapid integration into the national economy. Of course, we are also restoring Russia’s naval presence in the Mediterranean.

    As for the Arctic, several events motivate our decision. One is the growing importance of the North Sea Route. Mr President, I reported to you that we have begun work on building a new fleet of atomic-powered icebreakers. Three new atomic icebreakers will be ready for work accompanying ships along the northern route in 2017, 2019, and 2020. Furthermore, the Arctic also assures us free and unhindered access to the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Then there are the riches of the continental shelf, the development of which calls for an attentive approach.

    The Marine Doctrine pays particular attention to environmental issues too, because it is important for us not only to develop these riches, but also to preserve them for future generations.

    The Marine Doctrine contains a new section on shipbuilding. This is to a large extent linked to the fact that over these last 10–15 years, we have developed a shipbuilding industry that in terms of naval shipbuilding is doing work on a scale comparable to what was happening during the Soviet period. As for civilian and commercial shipbuilding, we are taking measures to encourage the establishment of private shipbuilding companies, which have demonstrated successful results.

    State management of marine activities is an important part of the Marine Doctrine. This section stresses the role of the Government’s Marine Board and clarifies the powers of the other state agencies. Essentially, once you approved the Marine Doctrine, we will be able to start drafting the whole list of planning documents for our country’s marine activities in the short, medium and long term.

    That concludes my report.

    Vladimir Putin: Are there any comments or questions?

    Commander of the Navy Viktor Chirkov: Mr President,

    Let me thank you for this Marine Doctrine’s timely drafting and approval. This is a timely document. It places responsibility on us for its future implementation, and we have already begun this process.

    Vladimir Putin: Mr Sidorov, what is the situation with coordination between the army and the navy?

    Commander of the Western Military District Anatoly Sidorov: Mr President, it is hard to talk about coordination when everything works as single whole and unified command. As far as the tasks before us are concerned, the Baltic Fleet is resolving everything together with the Western Military District’s forces.

    Regarding the delimitation of certain powers between the naval chief command and the Western Military District’s command, there is full coordination in this area.

    Vladimir Putin: Good, thank you.

    I see weakening in your comment, papadragon, more than a strenghtening.

    And more concretely about shipbuilding:

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russias-new-maritime-doctrine.391893/

    Shipbuilding strategy

    The 2015 doctrine adds a new section to the mix: shipbuilding. This, the doctrine states, is due to the re-emergence of the Russian shipbuilding sector over the past 10-15 years.

    Admiral Victor Chirkov, commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy states that the navy's priority is to develop and deploy advanced equipment to enable Russia to make up for lost ground (against rivals) and to become superior to them in certain areas. In addition to refitting the fleets, the navy is looking to build up stocks of weaponry and materiel; improve naval command and control (C2); integrate joint force C2 into the various theatres; and improve the navy's basing and support systems.

    Among these, priority will be given to supporting Russia's ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) and nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) within the Northern and Pacific fleets.

    Additionally, the doctrine seeks to create a general-purpose marine force armed with long-range and high-precision strike systems capable of providing a non-nuclear deterrent.

    The navy's future surface fleet is to be divided between long-range multirole vessels and short-range vessels with modular capabilities. Looking ahead, the service intends to field a multi-service naval strike force capable of quick relocation to threatened areas.

    The doctrine also foresees the introduction of new and innovative technologies such as: artificial intelligence systems, unmanned aerial, surface and underwater vehicles (UAVs, USVs, UUVs), non-lethal weapon systems, and new weapon types such as directed-energy weapons.

    Russia will now look to create a single, integrated, and jam-proof fleet-wide C2 system for use at all levels from the strategic to the tactical. This is intended to be adaptable and to form a single information control complex to enable network-centric command of diverse naval and joint-service assets in any theatre of operations.

    In connection with the maritime doctrine, and amendments in some aspects of force development, the Russian Navy is expected to gain some additional resources because the creation of a well-balanced and equipped naval force is a long-term effort of 30-40 years. Considering this and the duration of ship design/construction work, the conceptual approach to the development of the navy will be an ongoing issue for 45-50 years.

    To take account of the implementation time and existing/forecast resource and technology restrictions, the creation of the new-model navy has been divided into three phases: up to 2020; 2021-2030; and 2031-2050. The content of each phase was outlined by Adm Chirkov for the various elements of the navy.

    Strategic nuclear forces

    Up until 2020 the maritime strategic nuclear force will focus on completing the development and launching of its fourth-generation Borey-class (Project 955/955A) SSBNs, while maintaining its remaining Delta III/IV-class (Project 667BDR/667BDRM) SSBNs in operational service.

    During the 2021-2030 phase work will proceed on replacing the Delta class with fourth-generation SSBNs. Within this second phase Russia will also work on developing a new ship-based (in fact submarine-based) strategic missile system and a fifth-generation SSBN class. The doctrine sets out that series production of the fifth-generation SSBN will then commence in the final 2031-2050 phase.

    General-purpose force

    The general-purpose marine force inventory will include in its first phase the creation of a strategic non-nuclear deterrent force, enhancements to its SSN and diesel-electric submarines (SSKs), the build-up of the inventory and capability of its surface forces, and the creation of the new marine rapid-response force. In the mid term the non-nuclear deterrent will be provided by Yasen-class (Project 885M) SSNs and Oscar-class (Project 885M) nuclear-powered guided missile submarines (SSGNs). Meanwhile, the capability of Russia's non-strategic submarines will be ensured by upgrading its third-generation SSNs and building a new generation of SSKs.

    During the 2021-2030 phase Russia's existing SSN/SSK fleet is planned to be improved by adding unmanned technologies, while construction of a new-generation SSN class is also planned.

    Surface fleet

    In the first phase Russia's Admiral Gorshkov-class (Project 22350) frigates and Steregushchy-class (Project 20380) corvettes and their variants will become the core of the surface force for long- and short-range operations.

    In the mid term a new-generation destroyer featuring advanced strike, air defence and missile defence capabilities will become the navy's main oceangoing ship. Between 2021 and 2030 a new class of modular multirole surface combat ship will be designed and enter series production as the successor to the Project 22350/20380 classes. It is envisaged that these will be armed with novel weapon systems and will carry unmanned vehicles of various sorts.

    The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability, along with multirole landing ships. Work to design a new class of Russian aircraft carrier is to be completed before 2020, with construction and entry into service planned for the second phase of the doctrine (2021-2030).

    Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.

    Coastal forces

    The first phase of the doctrine concerning Russia's coastal troops and marine force aims to achieve: the completion of development of advance coastal-defence missiles and the issuing of them; and the enhancement of the marine brigade's ability to operate in different climates, including extreme Arctic conditions.

    Between 2021 and 2030 the doctrine plans the introduction of a highly mobile amphibious combat vehicle for the coastal troops so that they can support the marines' operations. The marines are also earmarked to begin receiving unmanned platforms during this period, possibly armed with directed-energy weapons or powered by alternative energy sources.

    Long term

    The direction of the final 2031-2050 phase is currently being analysed, according to Adm Chirkov. However, it is envisaged that during this final phase the following will be undertaken: series production of new-generation submarines; ongoing series production of the new aircraft carrier class; the start of series production of the new multirole ship class; the creation of a new generation of multirole unmanned systems; and the arming of coastal defence troops with new-generation unmanned missile systems capable of striking air, surface, sub-surface and space targets.

    Long-term plans (by 2050) also call for a transition to modular combat platforms for both surface ships and submarines.

    Nikolai Novichkov is a JDW Correspondent, reporting from Moscow

    And the project being designed is the Project 23000 that full agrees with the doctrine.

    Note that the doctrine explicitly mentions more than one aircraft carrier and serial production of aircraft carriers.
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    George1

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:17 am

    Pls avoid multiple quotes. None can follow such type discussions. You all talk about the same subject at two topics at the same time also


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:50 pm


    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing


    Well, it would make sense only if somebody else (india) would be paying part of the development.cost.. and even in that case I would prefer somethin (an aircraft carrying cruiser) between kutzetov and the never completed ulianovsk size, so between 55000 and 75000 tons
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing

    In short "we've run out cash" lol1
    I like the 50s-like explanations on how "missiles can do that job". Lots of men dies following that logic over half a century ago.

    On to the corvettes and gunboats comrades! Our icebreakers and minesweepers will prevail and our smoke will decimate them cheers

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing
    Nowhere do they state it is on ice. It blatantly said about need of ships and navy aviation. What people are debating on Sputnik is what we are debating here - should it be a super carrier or a pocket carrier or none at all? I think the general consensus may be a pocket carrier. Hence why they are looking at possibly brining back jump jets so they can fit more on less. Understandable. Super carrier costs a lot and a smaller carrier may do a better job for Russia.

    I think many of you in here either don't read your own links or have reading comprehension issues. The "experts" are people like us who are guessing. They didn't ask anyone in the defense ministry. As well, they are assuming the costs. Recall the assumption on costs for fighter jets PAK FA and Su-35 or Armats tanks?  That is also assuming it would be a 100,000 ton carrier instead of a 70,000 ton carrier.

    The important part is where the MoD is putting emphasis on new surface ships and submarines, and navy jets.  Sometimes I wonder if you guys even try.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:19 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing
    Nowhere do they state it is on ice. It blatantly said about need of ships and navy aviation. What people are debating on Sputnik is what we are debating here - should it be a super carrier or a pocket carrier or none at all? I think the general consensus may be a pocket carrier. Hence why they are looking at possibly brining back jump jets so they can fit more on less. Understandable. Super carrier costs a lot and a smaller carrier may do a better job for Russia.

    Nobody ever talked about a supercarrier. Tuchkov seems to mention it so as to serve a "no need for a CV at all" agenda. Now realistically, if the UK can get the job done, there's no reason why Russia can't get 2 ships in the Kuz size/tonnage within the next decade (by 2030).

    Some circles just keep making excuses because they want to direct that money to other programs. Corvettes, gunboats, minesweepers and God know what else. I fear there's a lot of lobbying that prefers to stick to what they know/do right now, when it comes to surface ships, than take more risks for more serious projects.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:21 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing
    Nowhere do they state it is on ice. It blatantly said about need of ships and navy aviation. What people are debating on Sputnik is what we are debating here - should it be a super carrier or a pocket carrier or none at all? I think the general consensus may be a pocket carrier. Hence why they are looking at possibly brining back jump jets so they can fit more on less. Understandable. Super carrier costs a lot and a smaller carrier may do a better job for Russia.

    Nobody ever talked about a supercarrier. They seem to mention it so as to serve a "no need for a CV at all" agenda. Now realistically, if the UK can get the job done, there's no reason why Russia can't get 2 ships in the Kuz size/tonnage within the next decade.

    They just keep making excuses because they want to direct that money to other programs. Corvettes, gunboats, minesweepers and God know what else.
    You are aware that no one from the ministry made mention in article, right? In other words, the experts are couch commanders like us.

    The military made their mind they want carriers, didn't specify what exactly. The experts mentioned would be like taking the experts at themess as truth of the ministry of defense in the US, or f-16.net as the Pentagon.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:22 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing
    Nowhere do they state it is on ice. It blatantly said about need of ships and navy aviation. What people are debating on Sputnik is what we are debating here - should it be a super carrier or a pocket carrier or none at all? I think the general consensus may be a pocket carrier. Hence why they are looking at possibly brining back jump jets so they can fit more on less. Understandable. Super carrier costs a lot and a smaller carrier may do a better job for Russia.

    Nobody ever talked about a supercarrier. They seem to mention it so as to serve a "no need for a CV at all" agenda. Now realistically, if the UK can get the job done, there's no reason why Russia can't get 2 ships in the Kuz size/tonnage within the next decade.

    They just keep making excuses because they want to direct that money to other programs. Corvettes, gunboats, minesweepers and God know what else.
    You are aware that no one from the ministry made mention in article, right? In other words, the experts are couch commanders like us.

    Yeah I added that to my edit just when you posted. The guy probably represnts some lobbies, which made his position published to Sputnik no less.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:28 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Oh boy, gentlemen start your engines... lol1

    Three Good Reasons Why Russia May Not Actually Need a Supercarrier

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707231055802542-russian-supercarrier-pros-cons/

    Looks like Shtorm is permanently on ice. So it begins.... Laughing
    Nowhere do they state it is on ice. It blatantly said about need of ships and navy aviation. What people are debating on Sputnik is what we are debating here - should it be a super carrier or a pocket carrier or none at all? I think the general consensus may be a pocket carrier. Hence why they are looking at possibly brining back jump jets so they can fit more on less. Understandable. Super carrier costs a lot and a smaller carrier may do a better job for Russia.

    Nobody ever talked about a supercarrier. They seem to mention it so as to serve a "no need for a CV at all" agenda. Now realistically, if the UK can get the job done, there's no reason why Russia can't get 2 ships in the Kuz size/tonnage within the next decade.

    They just keep making excuses because they want to direct that money to other programs. Corvettes, gunboats, minesweepers and God know what else.
    You are aware that no one from the ministry made mention in article, right? In other words, the experts are couch commanders like us.

    Yeah I added that to my edit just when you posted. The guy probably represnts some lobbies, which made his position published to Sputnik no less.

    They probably don't even lobby. They probably get paid by some kind of military blogs and or magazines to talk. Article didn't even mention corvettes, just masturbating around the idea of a 100,000 carrier makes sense for Russia or not.

    One thing I can tell you though for sure, Sputnik is looking to be like the guardian or Sun news day by day. Yellow journalism. Tass is really only Russian based English news that has any form of honesty left. RT, Sputnik are semi decent but becoming yellow journalism. English Russia, Russia def policy and alike are atrocious.

    Hard to find decent news these days.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

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