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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:52 am


    How long will it take to construct a shipyard?

    The South Korean/Russian program at Vladivostok was signed in about 2010 or so and was expected to start taking ship production orders in 2013 according to the articles I have read... so not actually that long it seems.

    To be honest I really don't think they are ready for two fixed wing carriers... the K will enter docks and start its 5+ year upgrade shortly but it is not just about a carrier or two, it is about support ships to operate with the carrier as well.

    The two Mistral class helicopter carriers will be a good first step and a challenge for the Russian Navy to operate properly and they can formulate operations and work out what they can or cannot do with them over the next few years.

    One offshoot will be likely a range of upgraded naval helos including attack and transport as well as rescue and anti sub models, which will be good for any fixed wing carriers that enter service in the near future.


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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    How long will it take to construct a shipyard?

    The South Korean/Russian program at Vladivostok was signed in about 2010 or so and was expected to start taking ship production orders in 2013 according to the articles I have read... so not actually that long it seems.

    To be honest I really don't think they are ready for two fixed wing carriers... the K will enter docks and start its 5+ year upgrade shortly but it is not just about a carrier or two, it is about support ships to operate with the carrier as well.

    The two Mistral class helicopter carriers will be a good first step and a challenge for the Russian Navy to operate properly and they can formulate operations and work out what they can or cannot do with them over the next few years.

    One offshoot will be likely a range of upgraded naval helos including attack and transport as well as rescue and anti sub models, which will be good for any fixed wing carriers that enter service in the near future.

    So the russians need experience first right?
    When can i expect the beginning of a second aircraft carrier?

    The shipyard is already there then right?
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:37 pm

    Russian Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Vice-Adm Alexander Fedotenkov said earlier this month that the Navy will take delivery of 36 new warships and auxiliary vessels in 2013-14 . Though he did not specify how these new ships will be distributed among the country's different fleets, he said , it is safe to assume that a significant portion will be used to bolster the Pacific Fleet.

    The state armament program makes no mention of new aircraft carriers procurement before 2020 .

    http://www.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/pepm_125.pdf

    Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said last year that R&D work pertaining to a nuclear powered carrier is currently being carried out, but until the results are presented, there can be no talk whatsoever of ordering such a carrier.

    Russia intends to field a heavy air-capable new generation cruiser, which is expected to be put to use by the Russian Navy in 2020.The new aircraft carrier will combine the properties of a command and control vessel with that of a powerful defensive ship.

    The Russian navy has 4 subdivisions - thus, it is expected that Russia will have 4 battle groups headed by aircraft carriers.These groups will consist of the aircraft carrier itself, at least 6 more other battle ships and 1 or 2 submarines.The displacement of the new aircraft carrier will be >50,000 tonnes which is higher than that of the Admiral Kuznetsov .
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:04 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Russian Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Vice-Adm Alexander Fedotenkov said earlier this month that the Navy will take delivery of 36 new warships and auxiliary vessels in 2013-14 . Though he did not specify how these new ships will be distributed among the country's different fleets, he said , it is safe to assume that a significant portion will be used to bolster the Pacific Fleet.

    The state armament program  makes no mention of new aircraft carriers  procurement before 2020 .



    Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said last year that R&D work pertaining to a nuclear powered carrier is currently being carried out, but until the results are presented, there can be no talk whatsoever of ordering such a carrier.

    Russia intends to field a heavy air-capable new generation cruiser, which is expected to be put to use by the Russian Navy in 2020.The new aircraft carrier will combine the properties of a command and control vessel with that of a powerful defensive ship.

    The Russian navy has 4 subdivisions - thus, it is expected that Russia will have 4 battle groups headed by aircraft carriers.These groups will consist of the aircraft carrier itself, at least 6 more other battle ships and 1 or 2 submarines.The displacement of the new aircraft carrier will be >50,000 tonnes which is higher than that of the Admiral Kuznetsov .

    Thanks man you really helped me with this!
    Its great to read that the russians will be having a great fleet again!
    And especially the aircraft carriers cant wait till hey show the bleuprints to the public.

    When wil the bleuprints be ready?
    Will they show them to the public?
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:35 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:When wil the bleuprints be ready?
    Will they show them to the public?

    I don't know if any timeline has been set for the blueprint to be made available . Since no new aircraft carrier are likely to join the Navy before 2020 , the designers have considerable amount of time . Constructing the carrier should take 6 - 7 years .

    Designing an aircraft carrier is a complex issue . Advances in sub system technologies is one of the critical factors that influences the design of an aircraft carrier. The greatest influence on the design will of course be Launching and recovering aircrafts . Then there is the overall machinery concept for propulsion, aviation launch and recovery equipment, and other ship systems.Chances are the Russian Navy will go for nuclear propulsion.

    And also one cannot loose sight of the cost factor. To reduce costs Navies round the world are considering selected tradeoffs in capabilities and adopting new ways of doing business .
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    TR1

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:55 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I **seem** to recall hearing that aircraft carriers will be built at a new shipyard owned by Sevmash (Severodvinsk, over by the White Sea); the shipyard is under construction or soon to be.

    The St. Petersburg and Vladivostok yards may have something to do with it I dunno; but only large enough dry dock for ships of such class will be in Severodvinsk; so that's where the bulk of the construction will take place.

    Makes sense too since they are the ones with the most experience. Rebuilding the Vikramadityu/Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian fleet and preparing to construct a Mistral class in the near future; not to mention their experience with nuclear-propelled vessels such as building atomic subs and the modernisation of the Admiral Nakhimov (Kirov class) due to start there soon.

    How long will it take to construct a shipyard?
    Cant wait for the carriers to come!

    Unfortunately you are going to have to wait a decade realistically my friend!

    There are some interesting things going on in shipbuilding until then though.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:19 am

    So the russians need experience first right?

    Well they need a carrier design to be completed first and then scrutinised and checked for potential problems/issues, and then lots of discussion... physical scale modelling and computer modelling and likely a few rival bids as well.

    Like I said before there is no point having a second carrier... even now as there is not enough support infrastructure and vessels to support two carriers at the moment.

    When can i expect the beginning of a second aircraft carrier?

    They likely wont start building a second carrier till 2022 at least, though they might lay two at once by then because by 2030 when they enter service the K might be ready to be put in reserve as a training carrier.

    The shipyard is already there then right?

    I suspect the new shipyard in Vladivostok will start with civilian ship production first... likely a few icebreaking LNG carriers or crude oil carriers able to sail the northern route.

    When wil the bleuprints be ready?
    Will they show them to the public?

    Very unlikely to reveal the real blueprints any time soon... even after they are finished... likely a few photos of bits of carrier like we have with the current frigate program.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    So the russians need experience first right?

    Well they need a carrier design to be completed first and then scrutinised and checked for potential problems/issues, and then lots of discussion... physical scale modelling and computer modelling and likely a few rival bids as well.

    Like I said before there is no point having a second carrier... even now as there is not enough support infrastructure and vessels to support two carriers at the moment.

    When can i expect the beginning of a second aircraft carrier?

    They likely wont start building a second carrier till 2022 at least, though they might lay two at once by then because by 2030 when they enter service the K might be ready to be put in reserve as a training carrier.

    The shipyard is already there then right?

    I suspect the new shipyard in Vladivostok will start with civilian ship production first... likely a few icebreaking LNG carriers or crude oil carriers able to sail the northern route.

    When wil the bleuprints be ready?
    Will they show them to the public?

    Very unlikely to reveal the real blueprints any time soon... even after they are finished... likely a few photos of bits of carrier like we have with the current frigate program.

    Well thats actually very nice!
    Thanks for the info!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:29 am

    Will the russian navy station an aircraft carrier in vladivostok to counter the us navy?
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:24 am

    It is very likely they will station two of their Mistral class carriers in the Pacific Fleet, and the other two in the Northern Fleet. Regarding fixed wing carriers I would expect the same as the two main focus areas for Russia are protecting the Kurile Islands from Japanese attack, while also boosting the far east and its economic growth and expansion, and the arctic as a place for an alternative route from Asia to Europe for shipping and also mineral rights and oil and gas exploration.

    In each case the presence of a significant fleet and a carrier or two would be very useful.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:00 pm

    Thanks for aaaalll the info and its said to hear that russia wont build there new AC for another 8-10 years.

    But i heard that china is building an AC and there planning to begin full scale construction VERY SOON so thats interesting to hear!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:45 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Thanks for aaaalll the info and its said to hear that russia wont build there new AC for another 8-10 years.
    What, are you kidding SU-35, MIG-35, PAK-FA, PAK-DA, MIG-31(replacement), and possible LMSF.

    Flyingdutchman wrote:But i heard that china is building an AC and there planning to begin full scale construction VERY SOON so thats interesting to hear!
    I think you mean full scale mass production, and those AC would be the J-20 and J-31.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:18 am

    By AC he means aircraft carrier.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:38 am

    TR1 wrote:By AC he means aircraft carrier.
    Whoops, my bad.pwnd 
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:23 pm

    Haha no problem mate xD
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:38 pm

    Maybe it is stupid i ask this but what is Zhuk-AE? Is it the radar?
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    TR1

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:47 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Maybe it is stupid i ask this but what is Zhuk-AE? Is it the radar?
    Yes the AESA that Phazatron has been working on.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:28 pm

    Why is the russian navy not doing the Same with the kiev carriers than they did for the indian navy?

    Then they have a few new carriers.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Why is the russian navy not doing the Same with the kiev carriers than they did for the indian navy?

    Then they have a few new carriers.
    Because :

    1.) Money doesn't grow on trees.
    2.) They are all either museums in China or scrapped
    3.) No requirement
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:12 pm

    But i think it takes a time to make the yak 44 it would be a whole new project.

    Please tell me if i am wrong about the yak.
    The Yak-44 was pretty much ready to enter pre serial production... there was simply no carrier for it to operate from so it was cancelled.

    It would not take much to take the design and give it a 21st C upgrade with new more powerful engines and greatly upgraded electronics and sensors and datalinks etc.

    Why is the russian navy not doing the Same with the kiev carriers than they did for the indian navy?
    India was in the position that its only operational carrier was near its expiry date and they needed a new carrier fast. The Gorshkov was available and so it was adapted for them.

    Ideally they would have been better off with a new vessel built from scratch but they didn't have the time. In the end it took much longer than expected, but then so did their scratch built carrier designs so I really don't think they are any worse off.

    For Russia they have the K and there is no urgent need for carriers right now... indeed there is not enough support infrastructure now anyway and that needs to be built up over time to prepare for new carriers.

    There are no Kiev carriers left to convert so it is no longer an option anyway.

    The new Indian carrier will be a good vessel, but not really what Russia need right now... as the K is bigger and has more potential while brand new carriers can be designed to exactly perform the roles Russia will require of them.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:05 am

    I heard they can put a VERY POWERULL radar on rhe mig-29k so it is kinda an awacs plane.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:34 pm

    Is it possible that the russians are designing an AC with China based on the Ulyanovsk?
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:51 am

    Is it possible that the russians are designing an AC with China based on the Ulyanovsk?
    Unlikely.

    What would China contribute to such a design?

    Why would Russia tie itself to a 30 year old carrier design?

    Technologies have moved on and new designs offer better potential performance... by 2040 carriers might have as much as 80% unmanned aircraft with roles like AEW and ASW long range patrols performed by drones.

    Work on EM cats would also benefit Russia in terms of EM technology that could also be applied to EM weapons and all electric propulsion...

    Electrical power generation for a ship is no problem at all so EM guns and bomb throwers will most likely be developed in naval versions well before land equivalents get mobile.

    Imagine a Corvette whose design is specifically catered to that of Blimp tether, where its job is to maintain the fleets airship by dragging it around... or indeed being dragged around by it on the end of a 10km long cable.

    Imagine a 1,000 ton capacity airship that carries around its own 500 ton light Corvette for emergency use... a vessel that size could have a 100mm A190 gun and Kashtan-M and have as many as 16 Uran missiles though it would probably be too small for a helo... perhaps a Ka-226T naval light helo for observation and light rescue missions and light attack missions too with Kornet EM missiles and ATAKA/Krisantema missiles.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Is it possible that the russians are designing an AC with China based on the Ulyanovsk?
    Unlikely.

    What would China contribute to such a design?

    Why would Russia tie itself to a 30 year old carrier design?

    Technologies have moved on and new designs offer better potential performance... by 2040 carriers might have as much as 80% unmanned aircraft with roles like AEW and ASW long range patrols performed by drones.

    Work on EM cats would also benefit Russia in terms of EM technology that could also be applied to EM weapons and all electric propulsion...

    Electrical power generation for a ship is no problem at all so EM guns and bomb throwers will most likely be developed in naval versions well before land equivalents get mobile.

    Imagine a Corvette whose design is specifically catered to that of Blimp tether, where its job is to maintain the fleets airship by dragging it around... or indeed being dragged around by it on the end of a 10km long cable.

    Imagine a 1,000 ton capacity airship that carries around its own 500 ton light Corvette for emergency use... a vessel that size could have a 100mm A190 gun and Kashtan-M and have as many as 16 Uran missiles though it would probably be too small for a helo... perhaps a Ka-226T naval light helo for observation and light rescue missions and light attack missions too with Kornet EM missiles and ATAKA/Krisantema missiles.
    The russians are designing a new carrier right now arent they?
    Is there a chance that they are designing it in cooperation with china but ghen a whole new model?

    Will the new russian carrier they're designing be the same size as ulyanovsk?
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:29 am

    Is there a chance that they are designing it in cooperation with china but ghen a whole new model?
    Not likely, though possible I suppose.

    Will the new russian carrier they're designing be the same size as ulyanovsk?
    Likely in the 40Kt to the 60Kt range... certainly nothing like the US 100kiloton range.


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