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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:53 am

    BTW I rather suspect their experience of giving the Kuznetsov a serious upgrade will allow them to have a better idea of what their options are.

    They will need a very powerful but compact and safe naval nuclear reactor for the upgrade of the Kuz and the Kirovs hopefully that can also be adopted on their new build larger vessels.

    Experience with new weapons and radar systems should also benefit plans for new carriers in the future.

    I remember planned carriers from the 1970s that showed models with naval Mig-23s on their decks but by the time they got them into service it was Mig-29s and Su-27s(33) that were eventually deployed.
    I suspect the new carriers and even the K might have a new variant of the PAK FA operating from its deck which will be quite interesting.


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    AlfaT8
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:50 am

    Been wanting to ask this for a while, but what are the export potential for the Kuznetsov class carrier to costumer other than China and India.Neutral 

    TR1
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:51 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Been wanting to ask this for a while, but what are the export potential for the Kuznetsov class carrier to costumer other than China and India.Neutral 

    Zero.

    India did not buy a Kuznetsov, and China bought a hulk from Ukraine.


    TheRealist
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:20 am

    I have been hearing a lot of news that the new shipyards in St. Petersburg will not go through and that it is not economical, yet I was able to stumble upon this article.

    New “super shipyard” to be built in St Petersburg
    http://www.bairdmaritime.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14207:new-super-shipyard-to-be-built-in-st-petersburg&catid=69&Itemid=60

    Clarification is appreciated.

    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:27 am

    Clarification is appreciated.

    The problem is that a failed or cancelled or delayed program is more newsworthy than one that is just continuing on schedule.

    Been wanting to ask this for a while, but what are the export potential for the Kuznetsov class carrier to costumer other than China and India.

    Would be zero... the Russian Navy likely would not sell it as they have no replacement ready to go.

    Another point is that the infrastructure and shipyards that built the K don't exist any more in the same sense and so carrier building facilities need to be recreated.

    Very simply aircraft carriers are as useful to the Navy as they are to the Army... in fact even more so as the environment the Navy operates in is like a flat open desert that is hard to hide in.

    The advantage of aircraft is an enormous increase in vision and reach with weapons, along with the flexibility of aircraft..

    A case in point could be given regarding the US Navy shooting down of an Iranian Airbus... the AEGIS cruiser involved had state of the art radar and electronics yet could not tell the difference between a climbing Airbus on a marked civilian air route and a descending F-14 on an attack run which they perceived it to be.

    A group of ships with no fixed wing aircraft could not get identification information till the aircraft got too close... so it would be radio warnings on frequencies that civilian airliners are not equipped to receive, and then opening fire with long range SAMs.

    For a group of ships with an aircraft carrier... even a not so amazing/state of the art fighter can be sent out to investigate and would quickly realise that the single attacker was in fact an Airbus rather than an F-14 on a suicide mission.

    I think it would be interesting for the Russians to experiment with a new aircraft carrier concept for UCAVs where the ship is 10-20K tons so it is not too big and expensive but has a flat deck to recover aircraft. It could store hundreds of medium and small UCAVs and also have long range cruise missiles for the land attack role. Most of the UCAVs could be highly manouverable fighter UCAVs equipped with AAMs of a range of types in an airframe able to pull 20-30g to enable it to out turn any manned aircraft.


    ...vertical launch with horizontal recovery so large numbers can be launched rapidly when needed and recovered as appropriate.


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    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:40 am

    GarryB wrote:BTW I rather suspect their experience of giving the Kuznetsov a serious upgrade will allow them to have a better idea of what their options are.

    They will need a very powerful but compact and safe naval nuclear reactor for the upgrade of the Kuz and the Kirovs hopefully that can also be adopted on their new build larger vessels.

    Experience with new weapons and radar systems should also benefit plans for new carriers in the future.

    I remember planned carriers from the 1970s that showed models with naval Mig-23s on their decks but by the time they got them into service it was Mig-29s and Su-27s(33) that were eventually deployed.
    I suspect the new carriers and even the K might have a new variant of the PAK FA operating from its deck which will be quite interesting.

    Thank you for all the info:D 

    I will introduce myself on the forum right now.

    TheRealist
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:56 am

    So is it safe to say that those new shipyards that USC was planning in St. Petersburg are now canceled and more effort is being placed on the Zvezda-DSME and Vostok-Raffles shipyards in the Far East?

    flamming_python
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:16 am

    I **seem** to recall hearing that aircraft carriers will be built at a new shipyard owned by Sevmash (Severodvinsk, over by the White Sea); the shipyard is under construction or soon to be.

    The St. Petersburg and Vladivostok yards may have something to do with it I dunno; but only large enough dry dock for ships of such class will be in Severodvinsk; so that's where the bulk of the construction will take place.

    Makes sense too since they are the ones with the most experience. Rebuilding the Vikramadityu/Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian fleet and preparing to construct a Mistral class in the near future; not to mention their experience with nuclear-propelled vessels such as building atomic subs and the modernisation of the Admiral Nakhimov (Kirov class) due to start there soon.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:21 am

    flamming_python wrote:I **seem** to recall hearing that aircraft carriers will be built at a new shipyard owned by Sevmash (Severodvinsk, over by the White Sea); the shipyard is under construction or soon to be.

    The St. Petersburg and Vladivostok yards may have something to do with it I dunno; but only large enough dry dock for ships of such class will be in Severodvinsk; so that's where the bulk of the construction will take place.

    Makes sense too since they are the ones with the most experience. Rebuilding the Vikramadityu/Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian fleet and preparing to construct a Mistral class in the near future; not to mention their experience with nuclear-propelled vessels such as building atomic subs and the modernisation of the Admiral Nakhimov (Kirov class) due to start there soon.

    How long will it take to construct a shipyard?
    Cant wait for the carriers to come!

    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:52 am


    How long will it take to construct a shipyard?

    The South Korean/Russian program at Vladivostok was signed in about 2010 or so and was expected to start taking ship production orders in 2013 according to the articles I have read... so not actually that long it seems.

    To be honest I really don't think they are ready for two fixed wing carriers... the K will enter docks and start its 5+ year upgrade shortly but it is not just about a carrier or two, it is about support ships to operate with the carrier as well.

    The two Mistral class helicopter carriers will be a good first step and a challenge for the Russian Navy to operate properly and they can formulate operations and work out what they can or cannot do with them over the next few years.

    One offshoot will be likely a range of upgraded naval helos including attack and transport as well as rescue and anti sub models, which will be good for any fixed wing carriers that enter service in the near future.


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    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    How long will it take to construct a shipyard?

    The South Korean/Russian program at Vladivostok was signed in about 2010 or so and was expected to start taking ship production orders in 2013 according to the articles I have read... so not actually that long it seems.

    To be honest I really don't think they are ready for two fixed wing carriers... the K will enter docks and start its 5+ year upgrade shortly but it is not just about a carrier or two, it is about support ships to operate with the carrier as well.

    The two Mistral class helicopter carriers will be a good first step and a challenge for the Russian Navy to operate properly and they can formulate operations and work out what they can or cannot do with them over the next few years.

    One offshoot will be likely a range of upgraded naval helos including attack and transport as well as rescue and anti sub models, which will be good for any fixed wing carriers that enter service in the near future.

    So the russians need experience first right?
    When can i expect the beginning of a second aircraft carrier?

    The shipyard is already there then right?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:37 pm

    Russian Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Vice-Adm Alexander Fedotenkov said earlier this month that the Navy will take delivery of 36 new warships and auxiliary vessels in 2013-14 . Though he did not specify how these new ships will be distributed among the country's different fleets, he said , it is safe to assume that a significant portion will be used to bolster the Pacific Fleet.

    The state armament program makes no mention of new aircraft carriers procurement before 2020 .

    http://www.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/pepm_125.pdf

    Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said last year that R&D work pertaining to a nuclear powered carrier is currently being carried out, but until the results are presented, there can be no talk whatsoever of ordering such a carrier.

    Russia intends to field a heavy air-capable new generation cruiser, which is expected to be put to use by the Russian Navy in 2020.The new aircraft carrier will combine the properties of a command and control vessel with that of a powerful defensive ship.

    The Russian navy has 4 subdivisions - thus, it is expected that Russia will have 4 battle groups headed by aircraft carriers.These groups will consist of the aircraft carrier itself, at least 6 more other battle ships and 1 or 2 submarines.The displacement of the new aircraft carrier will be >50,000 tonnes which is higher than that of the Admiral Kuznetsov .

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:04 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Russian Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Vice-Adm Alexander Fedotenkov said earlier this month that the Navy will take delivery of 36 new warships and auxiliary vessels in 2013-14 . Though he did not specify how these new ships will be distributed among the country's different fleets, he said , it is safe to assume that a significant portion will be used to bolster the Pacific Fleet.

    The state armament program  makes no mention of new aircraft carriers  procurement before 2020 .



    Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said last year that R&D work pertaining to a nuclear powered carrier is currently being carried out, but until the results are presented, there can be no talk whatsoever of ordering such a carrier.

    Russia intends to field a heavy air-capable new generation cruiser, which is expected to be put to use by the Russian Navy in 2020.The new aircraft carrier will combine the properties of a command and control vessel with that of a powerful defensive ship.

    The Russian navy has 4 subdivisions - thus, it is expected that Russia will have 4 battle groups headed by aircraft carriers.These groups will consist of the aircraft carrier itself, at least 6 more other battle ships and 1 or 2 submarines.The displacement of the new aircraft carrier will be >50,000 tonnes which is higher than that of the Admiral Kuznetsov .

    Thanks man you really helped me with this!
    Its great to read that the russians will be having a great fleet again!
    And especially the aircraft carriers cant wait till hey show the bleuprints to the public.

    When wil the bleuprints be ready?
    Will they show them to the public?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:35 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:When wil the bleuprints be ready?
    Will they show them to the public?

    I don't know if any timeline has been set for the blueprint to be made available . Since no new aircraft carrier are likely to join the Navy before 2020 , the designers have considerable amount of time . Constructing the carrier should take 6 - 7 years .

    Designing an aircraft carrier is a complex issue . Advances in sub system technologies is one of the critical factors that influences the design of an aircraft carrier. The greatest influence on the design will of course be Launching and recovering aircrafts . Then there is the overall machinery concept for propulsion, aviation launch and recovery equipment, and other ship systems.Chances are the Russian Navy will go for nuclear propulsion.

    And also one cannot loose sight of the cost factor. To reduce costs Navies round the world are considering selected tradeoffs in capabilities and adopting new ways of doing business .

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:55 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I **seem** to recall hearing that aircraft carriers will be built at a new shipyard owned by Sevmash (Severodvinsk, over by the White Sea); the shipyard is under construction or soon to be.

    The St. Petersburg and Vladivostok yards may have something to do with it I dunno; but only large enough dry dock for ships of such class will be in Severodvinsk; so that's where the bulk of the construction will take place.

    Makes sense too since they are the ones with the most experience. Rebuilding the Vikramadityu/Admiral Gorshkov for the Indian fleet and preparing to construct a Mistral class in the near future; not to mention their experience with nuclear-propelled vessels such as building atomic subs and the modernisation of the Admiral Nakhimov (Kirov class) due to start there soon.

    How long will it take to construct a shipyard?
    Cant wait for the carriers to come!

    Unfortunately you are going to have to wait a decade realistically my friend!

    There are some interesting things going on in shipbuilding until then though.

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