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Future russian aircraft carriers.51.99

    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:22 am

    It would be awesome if they install catapults on the K.
    And it would be much more effective if they have mig 29 with full payload.

    But i think it takes a time to make the yak 44 it would be a whole new project.

    Please tell me if i am wrong about the yak.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:28 pm

    Why is the russian navy not doing the Same with the kiev carriers than they did for the indian navy?

    Then they have a few new carriers.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Why is the russian navy not doing the Same with the kiev carriers than they did for the indian navy?

    Then they have a few new carriers.
    Because :

    1.) Money doesn't grow on trees.
    2.) They are all either museums in China or scrapped
    3.) No requirement

    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:12 pm

    But i think it takes a time to make the yak 44 it would be a whole new project.

    Please tell me if i am wrong about the yak.
    The Yak-44 was pretty much ready to enter pre serial production... there was simply no carrier for it to operate from so it was cancelled.

    It would not take much to take the design and give it a 21st C upgrade with new more powerful engines and greatly upgraded electronics and sensors and datalinks etc.

    Why is the russian navy not doing the Same with the kiev carriers than they did for the indian navy?
    India was in the position that its only operational carrier was near its expiry date and they needed a new carrier fast. The Gorshkov was available and so it was adapted for them.

    Ideally they would have been better off with a new vessel built from scratch but they didn't have the time. In the end it took much longer than expected, but then so did their scratch built carrier designs so I really don't think they are any worse off.

    For Russia they have the K and there is no urgent need for carriers right now... indeed there is not enough support infrastructure now anyway and that needs to be built up over time to prepare for new carriers.

    There are no Kiev carriers left to convert so it is no longer an option anyway.

    The new Indian carrier will be a good vessel, but not really what Russia need right now... as the K is bigger and has more potential while brand new carriers can be designed to exactly perform the roles Russia will require of them.


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    Sujoy
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:17 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Requires the PAK FA a catapult to be launched?
    No .Not really . Look at it this way . The Indian Navy's Gorshkov AC will have a STOBAR launch facility . However, the IN will include the naval variant of the FGFA on the Gorshkov . Why ? Naval FGFA will have TVC & this will further enhance the N-FGFA’s STOL performance.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:24 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Requires the PAK FA a catapult to be launched?
    No .Not really . Look at it this way . The Indian Navy's Gorshkov AC will have a STOBAR launch facility . However, the IN will include the naval variant of the FGFA on the Gorshkov . Why ? Naval FGFA will have TVC & this will further enhance the N-FGFA’s STOL performance.
    This means again that they cant launch while fully loaded?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:08 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:This means again that they cant launch while fully loaded?
    Certainly NOT . PAKFA has tremendous TwR .

    Even Indian MIG 29Ks are being launched fully loaded from the Groshkov during trials  and the MIG 29K doesn't have TVC .

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:06 am

    Then it wouldnt make sense to install cats on the K.
    Would it?

    Then you have an AEW but i dont think the K needs one.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:10 pm

    The purpose of installing cats on the K is to extend its vision and reach by adding AWACS aircraft... namely fixed wing AWACS aircraft in the form of something like a Yak-44M (upgraded).

    This aircraft would be able to spend much longer periods in the air and operate much higher than the Ka-31 AWACS helo and carry a much larger and heavier antenna than a UAV could carry.

    Of course using an airship might also be a more interesting way of supporting carrier groups with AWACS capability much more efficiently with enormous antenna operating in a range of frequencies...


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:The purpose of installing cats on the K is to extend its vision and reach by adding AWACS aircraft... namely fixed wing AWACS aircraft in the form of something like a Yak-44M (upgraded).

    This aircraft would be able to spend much longer periods in the air and operate much higher than the Ka-31 AWACS helo and carry a much larger and heavier antenna than a UAV could carry.

    Of course using an airship might also be a more interesting way of supporting carrier groups with AWACS capability much more efficiently with enormous antenna operating in a range of frequencies...
    Is this an option for the Russian navy?

    And do you know if they are installing cars on the K?

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    Russian carriers

    Post  Pugnax on Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:23 pm

    The possibility of unmanned high orbit blimps as information centres is very real.Cheaper than satellites ,easier to hide in the crowd...blade runner revisited.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:05 am

    I heard they can put a VERY POWERULL radar on rhe mig-29k so it is kinda an awacs plane.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:44 am

    Is this an option for the Russian navy?
    Airships are not good in very high winds, but are much safer than one might think.

    Most laymen think of the Hindenberg and remember a big fireball, but in reality a modern airship made of carbon fibre and other very light weight strong composite materials that dont burn well and fill it with helium which also does not burn and it would actually be quite hard to bring such an airship down with conventional weapons.

    The main problem is ballast... when you have a transport airship you fly it to where the cargo is and then you have to load the payload on, while dropping the ballast until you have a full payload and fuel to get to the destination.

    Now lets imagine you are building a dam in the middle of nowhere... no airfields, no roads... nothing. Build a huge airship that can carry oddly shaped 1,000 ton payloads under it and it can go to where it is made... pick it up vertically and take it directly to the dam and lower it into place. Most other forms of transport you would need to take it to pieces and transport it in thousands of separate loads and then assemble it again.

    The main problem with such an airship is that when it takes on the load it has to drop 1,000 tons of ballast, but when it travels to the delivery site it will burn fuel which means it needs some way of taking on more ballast in flight... or it has to reduce its lifting capacity on the way otherwise it will just get lighter and lighter and be unable to land.

    In the past the changes in weight were dealt with by releasing hydrogen but in a helium balloon helium is expensive, so some form of fuel cell technology that can turn hydrogen into water and water into hydrogen should offer much more flexibility... hydrogen is very cheap and readily available and lighter than helium so a better lifting gas so could form the core of the lifting gas on board the ship down the centre surrounded by inert nitrogen to prevent fires with helium around the outside which is also inert.

    Radar arrays could be part of the structure and could be enormous and make stealth even B-2 stealth ineffective...

    The Russians have already sold airships to China for radar monitoring of mountainous terrain and communications relay with unmanned airships operating for months at a time.

    And do you know if they are installing cars on the K?
    It would be useful to put them into service and get some experience with them. EM cats make more sense as they can be smart cats where the power can be adjusted during the launch to ensure safety.

    Often with steam cats someone made a mistake in the calculations and a heavily loaded heavy aircraft didn't get a high enough setting on the cat to get airborne and ended up in the water. An EM cat could self adjust during the launch to ensure safe takeoff speeds without ripping off the front wheel assembly.

    I heard they can put a VERY POWERULL radar on rhe mig-29k so it is kinda an awacs plane.
    Radar power is good, but very large radar antenna offers better performance and 360 degree views, plus a large plane with longer flight endurance is also a very good thing too.

    BTW add a tail facing Antenna array and the PAK FA already has 360 degree radar coverage, but a dedicated AWACS aircraft is still worthwhile IMHO.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:34 pm

    Is it possible that the russians are designing an AC with China based on the Ulyanovsk?

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:51 am

    Is it possible that the russians are designing an AC with China based on the Ulyanovsk?
    Unlikely.

    What would China contribute to such a design?

    Why would Russia tie itself to a 30 year old carrier design?

    Technologies have moved on and new designs offer better potential performance... by 2040 carriers might have as much as 80% unmanned aircraft with roles like AEW and ASW long range patrols performed by drones.

    Work on EM cats would also benefit Russia in terms of EM technology that could also be applied to EM weapons and all electric propulsion...

    Electrical power generation for a ship is no problem at all so EM guns and bomb throwers will most likely be developed in naval versions well before land equivalents get mobile.

    Imagine a Corvette whose design is specifically catered to that of Blimp tether, where its job is to maintain the fleets airship by dragging it around... or indeed being dragged around by it on the end of a 10km long cable.

    Imagine a 1,000 ton capacity airship that carries around its own 500 ton light Corvette for emergency use... a vessel that size could have a 100mm A190 gun and Kashtan-M and have as many as 16 Uran missiles though it would probably be too small for a helo... perhaps a Ka-226T naval light helo for observation and light rescue missions and light attack missions too with Kornet EM missiles and ATAKA/Krisantema missiles.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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