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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:49 am

    There are so many options - STOL aircraft, even planes modified for water landing/ takeoff. Perhaps a fighter could be carried up in a "cradle" that would look like a huge rocket man pack, but that would leave the difficulty of landing. The reality is that a sub carrier WOULD be possible.
    After all, even a bog standard carrier, for all its limitations, isnt exactly cheap.
    Stealthy carriers could mean huge savings in other areas.

    I remember reading about submersible carriers and thinking that was pretty stupid.

    The primary role of the carrier is to provide eyes and ears and a fist on the end of a very long arm and a carrier can't do that while submerged.

    I remember a game called Interceptor, by Bob Dinnerman that had Mig-29s (black coloured F-16s) that operated from a submersible carrier.

    The thing is that subs are not invulnerable either and a submersed carrier is not useful as a carrier till it surfaces and launches aircraft.

    STOVL and other carriers are expensive and their aircraft are expensive. Submersible carriers would be very expensive too.
    CTOL carriers offer cheaper aircraft with better compatibility with land based aircraft... the problems that need to be solved is how to pack lots of aircraft in a very small space in a way that they are fully usable yet you can carry enormous numbers in the smallest possible ship in terms of weight.

    Bigger heavier ships are expensive ships... but at the end of the day you get what you pay for. No one will tell you that 20 Corvettes are better than a Cruiser because each of those Corvettes are more vulnerable because of their small size. They will lack radar range and power, and they wont pack the same punch as a much larger vessel.

    They serve a purpose but at the end of the day a bigger ship is safer all things considered.

    Nothing is invincible, but thinking carriers are big slow targets is like saying AWACS aircraft are big slow targets. The reality is that they provide a capability that makes them worth having and integrating them into your force structure means they are as protected as any other component... often their presence makes everything better protected.

    A Nimitz class has ....at best.... 4 air-worthy E-2 at anytime, this mean that....at best....2 of them could be used contemporaneously for area reconnaisance missions (and naturally at this rate several hours at day will be totally devoid of airborne sensor coverage !!).

    But we are not talking about American carriers... by 2025 the main fighter on the new Russian carriers will be PAK FAs... likely each with their own 360 degree radar sensor suite. The dedicated AWACS platform might be a UAV designed to fly for days, or it could even be an aerostat that can be towed by a frigate or destroyer...

    How anyone can easily realize, at worsen furtherly the picture, none of those relations are linear....

    Except that for most of the time Russia will have satellite coverage as well, so the AEW aircraft can be directed to where activity has already been detected to get a better look, or to decoy the enemy into thinking you are somewhere you are not...

    Cold war era Kh-22M has an effective engagement range ,when delivered at high altitude by supersonic TU-22M3, greater than 550 km .

    But the problem remains... which countries have supersonic bombers delivering rather large supersonic anti ship missiles? Right now... not many.

    More importantly how would a Russian naval group be any safer without a carrier... most of the time it will be AEW aircraft from the carrier that detect threats first, so remove the carrier and you strip away that vision.

    Also even Mig-29Ks will be carrying RVV-BDs with a flight range of up to 280km, so in many ways they will be more like F-14s with Phoneix missiles than Hornets with AMRAAMs.

    Obviously not.

    "Aegis" can receive informations by external assets (land/sea/air/space based) but none of them is a part of Aegis Combat System .
    ACS is designed to opearate totally authonomously in a very precise and compartmentalized way, founded on the basis of well defined ellipse of integrated systems the two focus of which are AN/SPY-1 radar and SM-3 missile

    Russia doesn't have AEGIS, it has Sigma, which combines data from a range of platforms and sources both within the surface group and also submarines and satellites, and aircraft.



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    Mindstorm
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:46 pm

    No one will tell you that 20 Corvettes are better than a Cruiser because each of those Corvettes are more vulnerable because of their small size.

    GarryB here we don't talk of ships with similar gamut of capabilities , where effectively your position is absolutely shareable (a modern frigate, a destroyer or, even more, a cruiser, have all similar "kind" of capabilities ,but the first could ,at example, employ for air defense tasks only 9M96 missiles while the other two could integrate without problems also variant of 48N6DM or 40N6 -or even S-500 - interceptors with increases in capabilities effectively immenses ,placing them in another category, in respect to the area AD offered by the frigate ).

    Here we talk of a ship offering unique capabilities ,not shared in the same form by different kind of ships, for force protection against enemies within a certain threshold of strength and sophistication ,which are however almost totally uncapable to defend itself from high end menaces (from that derive the necessity to "enslave" at the exclusive task of theirs defense the operations of 6-7 other surface and subsurface units !!!) and with a price tag equal to an entire fleet.

    The same aircraft carrier's existence represent the barycenter of a whole naval discipline and an unpayable resource against an inferior enemy and an enromous liability and a very dangerous Achilles heel against a big ,advanced enemy.

    How i have highlighted previously ,the emergence of China as an emerging superpower,has generated revised plan just within US NAvy environment on the possibility to mantain aircraft carrier still as the center of US Naval Doctrine.


    http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2011-05/twilight-uperfluous-carrier


    in facts China's attempt to gain naval dominance in the Southern and Souther eastern Pacific
    sector would be not frozen by the nuclear MAD equilibrium (like was for URSS with NATO in the European continent during Cold War) because no NATO member would be involved in conventional disputes in those regions, therefore not only no "article 5" could be invoked to justify US intervention but no basis to respond with nuclear weapons to military actions conducted ,instead, using only conventional weapons (like would be the sinking of carriers with anti ships cruise or ballistic missiles) could be foreseen.


    But we are not talking about American carriers... by 2025 the main fighter on the new Russian carriers will be PAK FAs... likely each with their own 360 degree radar sensor suite. The dedicated AWACS platform might be a UAV designed to fly for days, or it could even be an aerostat that can be towed by a frigate or destroyer...


    GarryB ,if you have read the article i've provided you will realize that jsut the nation that more than any other has invested in UCLASS class see clearly that the roles now comited to classical aircraft carriers must find new actors to be carryed out .

    Russia must think to a future environment and must try to give maximum military value to the economic resources it employ for the construction of the new carrier.
    Is for this reason that the new domestic unity must remain relevant against any kind of enemy in any kind of conflict ,from a regional skirmish to strategical crysis.


    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:22 am

    ]Here we talk of a ship offering unique capabilities ,not shared in the same form by different kind of ships, for force protection against enemies within a certain threshold of strength and sophistication ,which are however almost totally uncapable to defend itself from high end menaces (from that derive the necessity to "enslave" at the exclusive task of theirs defense the operations of 6-7 other surface and subsurface units !!!) and with a price tag equal to an entire fleet.

    You keep talking about future Russian carriers like they will be analogs of US carriers...

    Present evidence is to the contrary... they are talking about 160 SAM missiles for Mistrals plus UKSK launchers for anti sub and anti ship and land attack capacity.

    I rather suspect their carriers... in addition to the 80 odd aircraft they want to deploy, will also have a broad range of SAMs and missile launcher bins.

    The plan for the carriers include its ability to take part in subsurface, sea surface, land, air, and space... this suggests to me that they will be defended by decent CIWS, plus layers of SAMs too.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Post  Sunehvm on Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:12 am

    Dont you just hate how the navy isnt that contuearproductive anymore?



    New Thins arme goiguU. AiscHe

    George1
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:21 am

    Batch production of prospect aircraft carriers will start in Russia after 2021, and construction of fifth-generation strategic nuclear-powered subs will begin after 2030, said Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief ADM Viktor Chirkov.

    "In the period of 2021–2030, combat capability of general-purpose naval force should be enhanced by batch production of prospective aircraft carriers, fourth-generation nuclear-powered attack submarines, multipurpose seagoing and littoral-zone warships", reports RIA Novosti citing Viktor Chirkov.

    Presently, Russian Navy operates only one aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetsov. Chirkov pointed out that mass production of fifth-generation strategic subs would begin after 2030.

    "In 2021-2030, along with keeping on scheduled replacement of overaged ballistic missiles submarines with new fourth-generation ones, it is necessary to kick off works on prospective fifth-generation strategic submarines, and to launch their mass production after 2030", Chirkov said.

    As for him, Russian Navy now operates third-generation nuclear-powered subs that will be replaced with Borei- and Yasen-class fourth-generation submarines by 2020.

    At the same time, Chirkov pointed out that Russian Navy command was planning to launch batch construction of unmanned submarines and sea robots after 2020.

    "After 2020, we anticipate a shift to large-scale production of stand-alone unmanned submarines and sea-based robot systems, development of special sea bottom equipment deployed from various underwater platforms", he said.

    Hachimoto
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Hachimoto on Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:04 pm



    Russia to Open Carrier Pilot Training Site by Fall

    MOSCOW, March 15 (RIA Novosti) - A new Russian carrier-deck pilot training site will be ready for operation by fall, the Federal Agency for Special Construction Work confirmed on Friday, replacing a Soviet-era base in Ukraine which Kiev has said it may lease to other countries.

    The construction work there is effectively complete. I believe aircraft will start flying there in August or September,” Grigory Naginsky, head of the Federal Agency for Special Construction Work (Spetsstroi) said.

    Former Russian Navy chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky had previously said the training facility in the city of Yeisk, on Russia's Black Sea coast, should be complete by 2020.

    Earlier in March, Ukrainian First Deputy Defense Minister Oleksandr Oleinik said Ukraine, which does not operate fixed-wing shipborne naval aircraft, was considering leasing out its Nitka training site in Crimea to other countries.

    Under a 1997 bilateral agreement, Russia occasionally uses Ukraine's Nitka Naval Pilot Training Center, the only land-based training facility for its carrier-based fixed-wing pilots. At present, the site is only used by Russia on a short-term basis to train Northern Fleet carrier pilots, who fly Su-33 naval fighter jets and Su-25UTG conversion trainers for Russia's sole carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov.

    The Nitka Center was built in the Soviet era for pilots to practice taking-off and landing from aircraft carrier decks. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the facility remained under Ukraine’s control.
    The center provides facilities such as a launch pad, a catapult launch device and arrester wires, a glide-path localizer, a marker beacon, and an optical landing system.

    The Russian Defense Ministry has previously asked the Ukrainian Defense Ministry to lease the site to Russia. Ukraine’s then-Defense Minister Mykhailo Yezhel supported Russia’s request. However, a firm deal for the Russia lease option was not clinched, Oleinik said earlier this month, so the Ukrainian Defense Ministry was looking at other options for using it.
    "India and China are the obvious potential candidates for this," Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, said earlier this month.
    India is awaiting delivery of a refurbished Russian aircraft carrier which will operate Russian MiG-29K fighter jets. China only has one carrier, from which naval aircraft were seen operating for the first time last year, and has little experience of fixed-wing naval operations. Most other aircraft carrier operators either use short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft whose crews would not need a facility like Nitka, or have their own such facilities, or use only ships for training.

    Under the original agreement, Russia traded use of the Nitka facilities for spare parts for Sukhoi-family naval fighter jets, which were the only type allowed to operate at the center. Russia and Ukraine were Nitka's only users.
    In August, Russia’s then-Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said Russia and Ukraine had signed a protocol on amendments to that agreement, setting out payment for using the site, unrestricted use of a range of naval aircraft for training and testing, and the possibility of sharing the center with third parties.

    The Russian Defense Ministry said last year it was paying about $700,000 annually to rent Nitka and was willing to upgrade the facility. Russia, which has only one aircraft carrier - the Admiral Kuznetsov - is drawing up plans for a new nuclear-powered aircraft carrier for its Navy by 2018.


    RIA

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:47 am

    I would guess it would be a chance to make the massive carrier simulator more modular, so they should be able to put in the electronics and communications on the upgraded Kuznetsov on the new base.

    Would be interesting to look at satellite photos of the new site to see if it is fitted with or for catapults...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    coolieno99
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  coolieno99 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:53 am

    Su-33 flight operations


    Flyingdutchman
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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:14 pm

    On 3 November 2011 the Russian newspaper Izvestiya reported the naval building plan now included (first) the construction of a new shipyard capable of building large hull ships, after which Moscow will build two nuclear-powered aircraft carriers by 2027. The spokesperson said one carrier would be assigned to the Russian Navy's Northern Fleet at Murmansk, and the second would be stationed with the Pacific Fleet at Vladivostok.

    Can Anyone tell me if they already started building these shipyards or any progress has been made at all?
    Or do you know the plans have changed or anything about the future Aircraft Carriers?

    Please tell me, greetings from the Netherlands.

    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:46 am

    Hi Flyingdutchman,

    Welcome to the forum Very Happy 

    We have a rule here that the first post should be an introduction in the "Members rules and introductions" section.
    Too late now, you don't have to delete your first posts but I would appreciate it if you take the time to look in the "Members Rules and Introductions" section and start a new thread to introduce yourself.

    While you are there there are a couple of rules threads you might like to look through, and of course feel free to look at the introduction posts by other members so you have an idea of who you are talking to and to see what is expected in your intro thread.

    Regarding your question however perhaps you mean this:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t861-new-shipyard-being-built-in-far-east-russia

    Of course that was 2010, so this is more recent:

    http://www.crewing.biz.ua/Article65739.html



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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    GarryB
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:53 am

    BTW I rather suspect their experience of giving the Kuznetsov a serious upgrade will allow them to have a better idea of what their options are.

    They will need a very powerful but compact and safe naval nuclear reactor for the upgrade of the Kuz and the Kirovs hopefully that can also be adopted on their new build larger vessels.

    Experience with new weapons and radar systems should also benefit plans for new carriers in the future.

    I remember planned carriers from the 1970s that showed models with naval Mig-23s on their decks but by the time they got them into service it was Mig-29s and Su-27s(33) that were eventually deployed.
    I suspect the new carriers and even the K might have a new variant of the PAK FA operating from its deck which will be quite interesting.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:50 am

    Been wanting to ask this for a while, but what are the export potential for the Kuznetsov class carrier to costumer other than China and India.Neutral 

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:51 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Been wanting to ask this for a while, but what are the export potential for the Kuznetsov class carrier to costumer other than China and India.Neutral 

    Zero.

    India did not buy a Kuznetsov, and China bought a hulk from Ukraine.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:20 am

    I have been hearing a lot of news that the new shipyards in St. Petersburg will not go through and that it is not economical, yet I was able to stumble upon this article.

    New “super shipyard” to be built in St Petersburg
    http://www.bairdmaritime.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14207:new-super-shipyard-to-be-built-in-st-petersburg&catid=69&Itemid=60

    Clarification is appreciated.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:27 am

    Clarification is appreciated.

    The problem is that a failed or cancelled or delayed program is more newsworthy than one that is just continuing on schedule.

    Been wanting to ask this for a while, but what are the export potential for the Kuznetsov class carrier to costumer other than China and India.

    Would be zero... the Russian Navy likely would not sell it as they have no replacement ready to go.

    Another point is that the infrastructure and shipyards that built the K don't exist any more in the same sense and so carrier building facilities need to be recreated.

    Very simply aircraft carriers are as useful to the Navy as they are to the Army... in fact even more so as the environment the Navy operates in is like a flat open desert that is hard to hide in.

    The advantage of aircraft is an enormous increase in vision and reach with weapons, along with the flexibility of aircraft..

    A case in point could be given regarding the US Navy shooting down of an Iranian Airbus... the AEGIS cruiser involved had state of the art radar and electronics yet could not tell the difference between a climbing Airbus on a marked civilian air route and a descending F-14 on an attack run which they perceived it to be.

    A group of ships with no fixed wing aircraft could not get identification information till the aircraft got too close... so it would be radio warnings on frequencies that civilian airliners are not equipped to receive, and then opening fire with long range SAMs.

    For a group of ships with an aircraft carrier... even a not so amazing/state of the art fighter can be sent out to investigate and would quickly realise that the single attacker was in fact an Airbus rather than an F-14 on a suicide mission.

    I think it would be interesting for the Russians to experiment with a new aircraft carrier concept for UCAVs where the ship is 10-20K tons so it is not too big and expensive but has a flat deck to recover aircraft. It could store hundreds of medium and small UCAVs and also have long range cruise missiles for the land attack role. Most of the UCAVs could be highly manouverable fighter UCAVs equipped with AAMs of a range of types in an airframe able to pull 20-30g to enable it to out turn any manned aircraft.


    ...vertical launch with horizontal recovery so large numbers can be launched rapidly when needed and recovered as appropriate.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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