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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:46 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:As it seems russia needs the carriers to protect the arctic routes.

    So the most probable is the nextac will be based on the super icebreaker, with ice capability, and to work on all year long in the arcitv with icebreaker help.


    No they don't.

    They already have bases up there.

    There will be no ACs in the Arctic.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:07 am

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:I don't understand how some people here came to a conclusion that Russia has money to develop, build at then maintain full-scale AC.

    Current military budget is being cut. New types of weaponry are delayed and purchasing numbers are decreasing. We are gonna see comparably low numbers of T-50, Armata and other new systems in upcoming years. Officials stated many times that the reason for this is financing.

    And in this situation you expect them to throw in billions in developing and building ACs + air wings + helos? Not to mention that we currently have technological and professional (workers, engineers) problems with building much smaller, less complex ships.

    Because you know about fuck all about budget.

    Take a look at SAP2020 and SAP2025.  Cutting budget isn't even happening with procurement idiot.  SAP2020 is only 40% used of over 20T rubles.  But I figure you are too dumb to do math.

    "Only 40% used".

    Its not like they piled up the money in some room. That money is being allocated though fiscal year. Percentage of how much of it was used has no value whatsoever, it might as well end up being halved in final score, we do not know atm what will happen. Might get increased, halved... we dont know.

    then take a gander at Austin's post because that was the agreement by everyone in Duma. They will exceed what was to be spent for sap 2020 by 2019.
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    kvs

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  kvs on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:36 am

    eehnie wrote:
    I do not see Russia following the way of the US, using its Navy, its Aircraft Carriers to impose their military power over the adversaries.

    But if Russia wants to have friends outside of the continental platform of Asia, must be able to defend them. Today, everyone that appears as friend of Russia outside of Asia is heavily attacked.

    Aircraft carriers are banana republic, colony control enforcement relics. They have zero value for defense. America uses them to
    police the 3rd world and terrorize weak countries. It will never use them against Russia since they would not reach Russia's shores.
    Since Russia has no ambitions to rule the world, it does not need them. But operations to support countries like Syria can use
    them, but these operations are of the same type as US operations: colonial policing.

    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:10 am

    kvs wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    I do not see Russia following the way of the US, using its Navy, its Aircraft Carriers to impose their military power over the adversaries.

    But if Russia wants to have friends outside of the continental platform of Asia, must be able to defend them. Today, everyone that appears as friend of Russia outside of Asia is heavily attacked.

    Aircraft carriers are banana republic, colony control enforcement relics.   They have zero value for defense.   America uses them to
    police the 3rd world and terrorize weak countries.   It will never use them against Russia since they would not reach Russia's shores.
    Since Russia has no ambitions to rule the world, it does not need them.    But operations to support countries like Syria can use
    them, but these operations are of the same type as US operations: colonial policing.

    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S. U.S uses, and will use these "colonies" as you put it to shore up its economic interest and maintain its hegemony in world politics etc etc. The USSR failed. The Americans did not. While anyone morally invested might want to aspire to a different way of handing international relations....the old ways of "might makes right" still reigns supreme.

    The criticism of "bankruptcy" and cost has little weight.

    I agree with eehnie and will disagree in the fact that even in Central Asia they're attacked. Although the efforts are not as strong. If Ukraine doesn't make that clear I don't know what will? Attempts towards Belarus will only intensify, even if some fail (as the ones currently). Either the tide is reversed or the tide will swallow up Russia. There is no in-between.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  eehnie on Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:04 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    I do not see Russia following the way of the US, using its Navy, its Aircraft Carriers to impose their military power over the adversaries.

    But if Russia wants to have friends outside of the continental platform of Asia, must be able to defend them. Today, everyone that appears as friend of Russia outside of Asia is heavily attacked.

    Aircraft carriers are banana republic, colony control enforcement relics.   They have zero value for defense.   America uses them to
    police the 3rd world and terrorize weak countries.   It will never use them against Russia since they would not reach Russia's shores.
    Since Russia has no ambitions to rule the world, it does not need them.    But operations to support countries like Syria can use
    them, but these operations are of the same type as US operations: colonial policing.

    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S. U.S uses, and will use these "colonies" as you put it to shore up its economic interest and maintain its hegemony in world politics etc etc. The USSR failed. The Americans did not. While anyone morally invested might want to aspire to a different way of handing international relations....the old ways of "might makes right" still reigns supreme.

    The criticism of "bankruptcy" and cost has little weight.

    I agree with eehnie and will disagree in the fact that even in Central Asia they're attacked. Although the efforts are not as strong. If Ukraine doesn't make that clear I don't know what will? Attempts towards Belarus will only intensify, even if some fail (as the ones currently). Either the tide is reversed or the tide will swallow up Russia. There is no in-between.

    Yes the US will try also in Asia, but the situation is different, with China and India, they are not strong enough there. But outside of Asia they are going very, very hard against who can be a friend of Russia.

    Also answering to kvs, I think we see in Syria just the two models ans both the US and Russia are present. In Syria, Russia is playing defense, not attack. Is the US who is playing attack. Today very clearly.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:57 am


    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S.
    If the only way for Russia to succeed is to emulate the US and Britain then I hope they never succeed.

    Carriers are great for enforcing colonial rule over other countries but that is not what Russia needs... they need a portable light air force they can take with them wherever they choose to operate.

    They don't need 100K ton carriers like the US... much smaller carriers will be fine.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:55 am

    GarryB wrote:

    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S.
    If the only way for Russia to succeed is to emulate the US and Britain then I hope they never succeed.

    Carriers are great for enforcing colonial rule over other countries but that is not what Russia needs... they need a portable light air force they can take with them wherever they choose to operate.

    They don't need 100K ton carriers like the US... much smaller carriers will be fine.

    I don't think it's smart for the U.S to have that many carriers either with 20 trillions in debt. They should downsize to at least half. The U.S should downsize many things but they're insane. The point is, as you say, Russia needs a "portable air force". Small carriers full of drones? Who knows. As for today, the current standards prevail. Russia can't obviously afford it now if we take into consideration other more pressing needs for their Navy but it's key for power projection - and to protect one's allies in the rest of the world at a moments notice. Counter coup interventions etc. For example - anyone that wants to threaten the U.S in Latin America will need carriers. Cubans can only do so much helping others get in power. Everytime one gets in, the government gets trashed by information warfare, economic warfare, sabotage and the successors (if they're so lucky to survive the election) - "couped". And Latin America is ripe for a power challenge from another super power since it's extremely poorly armed. A couple of secured Naval bases gives you a solid anchor. USSR made a huge mistake not challenging them hard in Latam (south) but that's another topic.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:15 am

    Small carriers full of drones?

    If you want unmanned aircraft to defend your carrier platform then S-400s and S-500s would do a much better job in defence and Calibr and Kh-101/102 a better job in attack.

    Manned aircraft certainly with the support of unmanned aircraft make the best defence/offence... meaning a carrier and not a missile carrying vessel... if you want the latter an Akula with 50 UKSK launchers would make more sense.

    Keeping it all cost effective is the key... mouldarity, multirole ships and subs plus air support and they should have a tight, small powerful navy and no one wants to tangle with.

    They don't need to be able to invade countries at will... that is an american thing.

    the ability to defend themselves on the open sea is what they need. and it does not need to be expensive... the boost in trade and commerce should help it pay for itself in the long term.

    There are plenty in the world that deal with the US and the west because there is no viable alternative... that can change.


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:00 pm

    The new russian carrier will be based on the LK-110Ya class.
    That ship propulsion system is like /as strong like the Nimitz / Ford carriers. The width is the same as well.

    Means if Russia can make the LK-110Ya then it can make Nimitz / Ford class carrier as well.

    It has to be ice stenghtened, to be capable to cross the arctic all year round with icebreaker .

    It is not simply option to operate in the arctic, but means that it can move between the atlantic and pacific ocean throught friendly waters.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:32 pm

    Intersting picture that shows the size of carriers. Kuz' size is very nice for a future carrier. The big problems are the Granit that takes lot of space under the deck which can be used to store more fighter, lack of catapult for AWACS, non-nuclear propulsion and the very big bridge which can be reduced in size with updated technolgies. They can transform it into a catamaran by adding some surface on the left with more space to park aircrafts and addig two catapults.

    The second interesting thing on this picture is the Indian Vikrant class which is awfull and smaller than the Vikramaditya.

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:11 am

    Any updates on Shtorm?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:09 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Any updates on Shtorm?

    Vaporware
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:46 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Any updates on Shtorm?

    Vaporware

    No, just not a priority. At best a supercarrier or two allows Russia to be more forceful during interverventions against small states (eg supporting Syria against jihadi orcs), but that isn't an existential need, and they won't do this until other pressing priorities are sorted. Carriers are likely to be of limited use in battles between peer-adversaries as the advent of reliable high-performance AShMs (including SRBMs & IRBMs) will make the job of defending these huge obvious targets all the more difficult.

    It only takes ONE hit by a decent AShM like an Oniks to inflict a mission kill on even the largest carrier. A carrier that cannot launch or recover aircraft due to a fucking great burning hole in its deck is less than useless. it is no longer an asset, but a huge LIABILITY that will soak up resources in order to protect (and her crew) and make the job of defending the fleet even more difficult. Hit one with a Granit after her escorts defensive potential is absorbed by waves of smaller missiles, and its a wreck, and PR NIGHTMARE for the USN.

    The USN brass stay awake at night due to nightmares of 4-5 sub-launched Oniks slamming into the side of a Ford-class carrier. The Russian navy brass just don't need that sort of needless aggravation.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:32 pm

    Key dates:
    Kuznetsov refurbishment finish date : 2020-2022
    LK-110Ya class construction start : 2021

    Based on this the earlies date for the Russian super aircraft carrier is 2023.
    Most probable is 25.

    They have to learn how to make new, complex ships. The icebreaker will be the most important milestone in this process.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:55 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:Key dates:
    Kuznetsov refurbishment finish date : 2020-2022
    LK-110Ya class construction start : 2021

    Based on this the earlies date for the Russian super aircraft carrier is 2023.
    Most probable is 25.

    They have to learn how to make new, complex ships. The icebreaker will be the most important milestone in this process.

    Hopefully before the Chinese get their carriers operational.
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    Russian Patriot

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    We don't need 11 like the US but at least 2 carriers would be nice in Pacific to counter Chinese interests.

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Just because they may want to have something does not mean that they need it.

    India could invest loads of money and successfully design and build nuclear icebreaker. But what use would they have for it? Other than some basic scientific stuff none at all.

    Same applies for Russia and oversized aircraft carriers. For 10+ billion that the project construction would cost for just one unit (to say nothing of timetable) they could purchase entire new navy composed of vessels they have actual need for.

    They should build more than one type of ships but those types should be missile ships, corvettes, frigates and landing ships. Destroyers at later phase. Small carriers at much later one. That is it.

    Everything else is just waste of time and money on needless bling.

    We don't need 11 like the US but at least 2 carriers would be nice in Pacific to counter Chinese interests.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:39 pm

    Well, China is probably going to have 4 carriers, certainly atleast 3.5 by 2025, and maybe even 6 (atleast 5) by 2030.

    2 Type 001 aka Kuznetsov-class (1 of them improved, the recently launched Type 001A)

    2 Type 002 class, conventionally-powered, with catapults

    2 Type 003 class, supercarriers, nuclear-powered, probably with EMALS

    They are going to launch their first Type 002 carrier around 2019-22. In any case it seems to already be under construction, so the Chinese are building atleast 2 carriers simultaneously. They are also building 4 (!) Type 055 cruisers/heavy destroyers simultaneously. The good thing for Russia is that that will keep the US quite busy...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:05 pm

    Russian Patriot wrote:..........

    We don't need 11 like the US but at least 2 carriers  would be nice in Pacific to counter  Chinese interests.

    Still those that you would need would be much smaller than supercarrier.

    Ships no larger than Kuznetsov with nuclear propulsion and catapults would more than suffice.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:10 pm

    Russian Patriot wrote:........
    Hopefully before the  Chinese get their carriers operational.

    I don't think that Chinese Navy is any real threat at least not in foreseeable future.

    And even if they get them up and running they still have increasingly questionable application in the age of hypersonic missiles. To say nothing of Russian sub fleet parked in Pacific.

    Besides, it USA that is chomping at Chinese sea turf, not Russia.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:41 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:..........

    We don't need 11 like the US but at least 2 carriers  would be nice in Pacific to counter  Chinese interests.

    Still those that you would need would be much smaller than supercarrier.

    Ships no larger than Kuznetsov with nuclear propulsion and catapults would more than suffice.

    Well we're getting off topic, but IMO the only issue with the Kuz is that it's aircraft can't launch with full-load, a Russian carrier that can allow this would be enough.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:23 am

    The Chinese navy want to get complete control above the Chinese sea first.

    Second will be Taiwan.

    Without having control above Taiwan the Chinese Navy doesn't has chance to cause problem to anyone on the Pacific ocean.


    It hasn't got to pass through Korea and Japan to the Russian areas as well.

    So, at the moment China is "contained" .

    However as it seems in 10 years time Japan will have to be in good military friendship with China.Not with the US .
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:34 am

    To go further off topic from the long launch position the current aircraft can take off with a full load.

    The real issue is what is the point of having air cover if you don't have anything to cover.

    Destroyer/cruisers are a must to provide mutual defence for AC.

    No, they don't want or need US strike carriers... but some fixed wing carriers for the Pacific and Northern fleets would be useful and would extend the vision and reach of any group of ships and subs they operate with.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:39 am

    Talk of Russia and China fighting at sea or anywhere else gives the US an immediate erection...

    Both countries have rather too much to lose and so very little to gain from fighting each other.


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:To go further off topic from the long launch position the current aircraft can take off with a full load.

    The real issue is what is the point of having air cover if you don't have anything to cover.

    Destroyer/cruisers are a must to provide mutual defence for AC.

    No, they don't want or need US strike carriers... but some fixed wing carriers for the Pacific and Northern fleets would be useful and would extend the vision and reach of any group of ships and subs they operate with.

    Please clarify, also note that when i said full-load, i meant in both fuel and weapons.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:To go further off topic from the long launch position the current aircraft can take off with a full load.

    The real issue is what is the point of having air cover if you don't have anything to cover.

    Destroyer/cruisers are a must to provide mutual defence for AC.

    No, they don't want or need US strike carriers... but some fixed wing carriers for the Pacific and Northern fleets would be useful and would extend the vision and reach of any group of ships and subs they operate with.

    US havn't solved the issue of the the carrier's lack of defence against subs too. Russian's sub would have the same problem and US has more ocean going SSNs while Russia still hasn't got enough support big warships to provide defence for carriers. The problem is bigger for chinese navy and Indian navy as they lack in number and technology for SSN.

    While it's doubtfull that an US carrier can survive in a modern war against oniks, SSNs, aviation ... The situation is totaly different for Indian and chinese. They would lost their carriers the first day. IMO it's a wast of time for them to start building carriers while SSN could be more usefull. But they are doing the same mistake than USSR by building what the opponent build and not by adaptating their strategy. If india has to face Chinese carrier they should buy 2 more Akula than buying the Vikramanditha (very bad carrier by the way). And if china wants to face US navy they should invest more in long range detection capabilities, long range bombers and very long range missiles and modern SNA.

    Economicaly India can't do what China does and China can't do what US does. The US has all he EU to buy their weapons and invest in their program while China, Russia and India doesn't have. The main advantage of US is in a economical war, not a military. That's the tactic they used against USSR and they are trying to use it against china too.

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