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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    Project Canada
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Project Canada on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:38 am

    I think the new Zvezda shipyard in Vladivostok has more potential than the previous USSR shipyard Nikolayev since Zvezda is facing open sea, while ships built in Nikolayev will have to go through the bosporus strait, which could be restricted by the Turks.

    BTW why didn't they come up with building a huge shipyard in the Arkengelsk region that can build Aircraft carriers? Is it because of the climate? Its in open sea too, unlike in the baltics and black sea
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:21 am

    Severodvinsk...
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Project Canada on Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:10 pm

    hoom wrote:Severodvinsk...

    Im sorry, i forgot to mention, however my impression is that the shipyard there is mostly for sub construction. Maybe it can be expanded to accommodate construction of large surface ships as well
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:55 pm

    Project Canada wrote:
    hoom wrote:Severodvinsk...

    Im sorry, i forgot to mention, however my impression is that the shipyard there is mostly for sub construction. Maybe it can be expanded to accommodate  construction  of large surface ships as well

    It lacks capable dockyard cranes to begin with.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:55 am

    There is no point in building Carriers now... they need more modern smaller vessels to operate with the current carrier, and of course they need support vessels and a world wide network of foreign friendly bases to "visit" too.

    I suspect a production start date of 2022-2023 with operational capability 2030 or so for the first new carrier and 2034 for the second.

    I would hope they plan a drastic upgrade of the K between now and 2022 that would include a nuclear power plant and complete upgrade of sensors and weapons and perhaps a small simple EM cat to allow a heavier AWACS aircraft to operate from the carrier.

    In mid 2020s an upgrade of aircraft to add PAK FA in a naval version.

    As I said elsewhere I would add UKSK capability because that adds supersonic and later hypersonic anti ship and land attack cruise missile capability and anti sub capability too...



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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:03 am

    I am really interested in this particular topic, especially the new aircraft carrier and the shipbuilding facilities that may eventually construct these vessels.

    In my own view I do believe that Zvezda Shipyard is the potential candidate for the future aircraft carrier production facility.

    As shown:

    TVERKI

    As shown they have already installed in the first stage of the construction two goliath type cranes and they did announce another type of goliath type crane that has a lifting capacity of 1,200 tons. As these cranes are installed during the first phase of construction of the shipyard it would seem that these are of a smaller capacity but this is just the first phase, the installation of the 1,200 ton capacity crane will be installed in the second phase as mention by Igor Sechin.

    Later, the President was able to personally verify this – he inspected the area of installation work of the complex, where a few days ago was delivered of modern specialized cranes with lifting capacity of 320 tons. Moreover, these impressive units is only a part of a joint contract with plant with Chinese partners. In the near future on the «Star» appears, tap the type of «Goliath», lifting capacity 1200 ton, it’s almost 3 Boeing-747. The word «unique» here is not for effect – such cranes in Russia never imported and are not exploited.

    I watched in Sdelanounas the installation of these cranes.





    Also during President Putin's visit to the Zvezda Shipyard three weeks ago you can notice the presence of Deputy Minister of Defence Yuriy Borisov and Rogozin is also present which adds to my speculation of the Zvezda Shipyards potential role in the naval shipbuilding program.



    Given also the sheer dimension of the dry dock which is 114 x 14 x 485, one would assume that it will cater to large naval orders in the future.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:37 am

    A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.



    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:26 am

    KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

    The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

    The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


    The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:46 am

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

    The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

    The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


    The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.

    I'll venture to say that steel bought and processed in the far East is cheaper than Europe. So Zvezda is positioned very well in that regard. I have no idea what the Russian industry in the region is like, but they could fill the gaps by getting some modules built in Korea and/or China.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:59 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

    The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

    The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


    The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.

    I'll venture to say that steel bought and processed in the far East is cheaper than Europe. So Zvezda is positioned very well in that regard. I have no idea what the Russian industry in the region is like, but they could fill the gaps by getting some modules built in Korea and/or China.

    Out of question.

    You can't build warship modules in antoher country.

    You need to make them there.

    And the cost of the steel irrelevant, the hours that you need to make them is the most important.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_trafo on Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:There is no point in building Carriers now... they need more modern smaller vessels to operate with the current carrier, and of course they need support vessels and a world wide network of foreign friendly bases to "visit" too.

    I suspect a production start date of 2022-2023 with operational capability 2030 or so for the first new carrier and 2034 for the second.

    I would hope they plan a drastic upgrade of the K between now and 2022 that would include a nuclear power plant and complete upgrade of sensors and weapons and perhaps a small simple EM cat to allow a heavier AWACS aircraft to operate from the carrier.

    In mid 2020s an upgrade of aircraft to add PAK FA in a naval version.

    As I said elsewhere I would add UKSK capability because that adds supersonic and later hypersonic anti ship and land attack cruise missile capability and anti sub capability too...


    From russia standpoint it is irrelevant if China, _India or Russia build carriers.

    All of the hold up the US military force, and grinding it into useless pieces, if they try to cover the whol eworld.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:34 am

    Russia to build new naval aircraft carrier based off experience in Syria



    The experience the Russian Navy have had in Syria because of the involvement of the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov in combat operations will help guide the construction of a new aircraft carrier according to the chairman of the State Duma’s defense committee, Vladimir Shamanov.

    "Any experience that we’ve gained will certainly come in handy in building a new aircraft carrier. Creating such a ship has long been an urgent need, because our country is washed by seas and oceans all around. We are destined to not only restore, but also to build up the fleet’s combat potential," he said to TASS.

    Shamanov believes that The Admiral Kuznetsov’s participation in the operation in Syria could be described as "another step forward in developing our Navy, because the effectiveness of the most advanced weaponry it gets should be put to test in situations approximating combat ones, if not real combat operations, and not stay idle," TASS reported him as saying.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-build-new-naval-aircraft-carrier-based-off-experience-syria/
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:49 am

    "Urgent" by 2035.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Firebird on Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:22 pm

    Something that really puzzles me is the claim that the USSR was never interested in building or using aircraft carriers. OK it WAS later than the US etc in developing them but, look at this:-

    1)Moskva helicopter carrier- 3 planned, 2 completed
    2)Kiev aircraft carrier - 4 completed
    3)Kuznetsov aircraft carrier - 2 built
    4)Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier -1 part built, 3 planned.

    This was the situation in about 1991.
    You could certainly suspect more would have been planned.

    These were all newish or brand new ships (barring the Moskvas).
    Its conceivable that ALL (except the Moskvas) would have been in service today.

    I wonder how rebuilding will go, once the Eurasian Union grows and strengthens?
    Ofcourse there has been talk of 6 huge Storm carriers. And 2 sizes of heli carriers. Maybe as much as a total of 6 or 8 there? Priboy and Lavina, as I recall.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:15 am

    You have to look at what the navies are for... for small or big island nations like the UK or the US respectively, the aircraft carrier projected power around the entire world.

    Both air attack and ground attack in one mobile package.

    Of course for the Soviets land attack was not an issue... that is what ICBMs were for.

    The Soviet navy was to protect Soviet ports and therefore could rely on ground based air cover most of the time.

    the Kiev and moskva classes were sub hunters where the helos hunted subs and in the case of the Kievs the fighters offered a limited fixed wing protection for the fleet hunting down subs. They were intended to protect friendly SSNs by shooting down enemy MPAs... which is about as much as you could expect from a Yak-38M.

    The K and later models were intended to improve the air defence of a carrier group to enable the defence of the anti ship armed ships from enemy aircraft so they could close in and fire their missiles against enemy carriers and the ships supporting them.

    The western use of carrier based aircraft for land attack is redundant now as the cruise missile offers similar performance without the risk or cost.... to send a manned aircraft into enemy airspace you need the aircraft plus further aircraft to deal with air defence systems and enemy fighters and might need to prepare the way by taking out air defence systems on the way to and from the target... in comparison firing 2-3 cruise missiles on different flight paths is cheaper and easier.

    The change from the Su-33 to the MiG-29KR has nothing to do with the latters ground attack capability and everything to do with the fact that the latter was put into production for India so it was cheaper to order more for the RuNavy.

    The Russians don't want US type carriers... they are too big and too expensive and don't offer anything new that would be useful.

    They will likely put EM cats on their new designs but likely only so larger aircraft like AWACS aircraft can be used.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Benya on Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:You have to look at what the navies are for... for small or big island nations like the UK or the US respectively, the aircraft carrier projected power around the entire world.

    Both air attack and ground attack in one mobile package.

    Of course for the Soviets land attack was not an issue... that is what ICBMs were for.

    The Soviet navy was to protect Soviet ports and therefore could rely on ground based air cover most of the time.

    the Kiev and moskva classes were sub hunters where the helos hunted subs and in the case of the Kievs the fighters offered a limited fixed wing protection for the fleet hunting down subs. They were intended to protect friendly SSNs by shooting down enemy MPAs... which is about as much as you could expect from a Yak-38M.

    The K and later models were intended to improve the air defence of a carrier group to enable the defence of the anti ship armed ships from enemy aircraft so they could close in and fire their missiles against enemy carriers and the ships supporting them.

    The western use of carrier based aircraft for land attack is redundant now as the cruise missile offers similar performance without the risk or cost.... to send a manned aircraft into enemy airspace you need the aircraft plus further aircraft to deal with air defence systems and enemy fighters and might need to prepare the way by taking out air defence systems on the way to and from the target... in comparison firing 2-3 cruise missiles on different flight paths is cheaper and easier.

    The change from the Su-33 to the MiG-29KR has nothing to do with the latters ground attack capability and everything to do with the fact that the latter was put into production for India so it was cheaper to order more for the RuNavy.

    The Russians don't want US type carriers... they are too big and too expensive and don't offer anything new that would be useful.

    They will likely put EM cats on their new designs but likely only so larger aircraft like AWACS aircraft can be used.

    I agree, but I think that at least the two oceangoing fleets (the Northern and the Pacific ones) should receive one large carrier (carrying around 50-60 planes/ASW helos, not much need/money for supercarriers like the Nimitz- or Gerald Ford-class ones of Uncle Sam's navy, carrying around 80 planes), just in case if some enemies are crazy enough to attack Russia's submarine force or Acrtic territories of Russian interest, or the Far Eastern territories/important cities of Russia (Vladivostok, Khabarovsk and so on).

    In the foreseeable future (around 2020-2040), Kalibr cruise missile-equipped Gorshkov-class frigates, but more likely the Tsirkon missile-equipped Lider-class destroyers will be able to at very least repel - if not partially/severely damage/destroy - a CSG-size naval formation
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Giulio on Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:22 pm

    I think that aircrafts need a bigger ship.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  kvs on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:19 am

    Giulio wrote:I think that aircrafts need a bigger ship.

    Russia does not need US style aircraft carriers to project colonial control. The Cruise Princess is not happy about 2035.
    Well, how many Syria style engagements is Russia going to be engaged in from now until then. Action in Latin America,
    Afrcia, South and South-East Asia? No chance. And the Kuznetsov was not needed for Syria anyway.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:25 am

    kvs wrote:
    Giulio wrote:I think that aircrafts need a bigger ship.

    Russia does not need US style aircraft carriers to project colonial control.   The Cruise Princess is not happy about 2035.
    Well, how many Syria style engagements is Russia going to be engaged in from now until then.    Action in Latin America,
    Afrcia, South and South-East Asia?   No chance.   And the Kuznetsov was not needed for Syria anyway.

    The Kuz itself could qualify as a super-carrier.

    Russia needs super-carriers but can't make them because their shipyard is under NATO/Maidan control. Also their defense spending is very low that only allows a token, under-strength Navy.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:25 pm

    Russia needs super-carriers but can't make them because their shipyard is under NATO/Maidan control. Also their defense spending is very low that only allows a token, under-strength Navy.

    Russia is in no hurry to get large carriers... Strategic bombers carrying long range cruise missiles can deploy anywhere much faster than one or two carriers could.

    Any future roaming Russian sub could also easily deliver cruise missile attack from almost any direction.

    The primary use of a future large Russian carrier is to provide air defence for a naval group and they will be able to build that size ship rather easily.

    If the Ukraine suddenly said they were sorry and asked Putin to take over and control all of the Ukraine the amount of money needed to get that country back into the 21st Century would bankrupt Russia or pretty much any other country... let alone reviving an old shipyard that is likely doomed... no NATO country will want a ship built there and now there will be no Russian orders... who exactly are they going to ever get work from? They have a very bleak future now. And they did it to themselves.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:35 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Giulio wrote:I think that aircrafts need a bigger ship.

    Russia does not need US style aircraft carriers to project colonial control.   The Cruise Princess is not happy about 2035.
    Well, how many Syria style engagements is Russia going to be engaged in from now until then.    Action in Latin America,
    Afrcia, South and South-East Asia?   No chance.   And the Kuznetsov was not needed for Syria anyway.

    The Kuz itself could qualify as a super-carrier.

    Russia needs super-carriers but can't make them because their shipyard is under NATO/Maidan control. Also their defense spending is very low that only allows a token, under-strength Navy.


    Russia defense spending is roughly 40% -50% of the US defense spending.

    Not small money.

    Don't be fooled by the xchg rate, that showing only the level of trade ,commercial and financial relationship with the US.


    And maybe it is hard to realise, but russia at the moment building its next generation aircraft carrier group.
    Spending money to use the K and get experience from it.

    That cost and mean more than cutting a few plate and making reactor vessel.

    The most expensive component of a carrier group is not the ship itself, but the crew/industrial background.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:45 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Giulio wrote:I think that aircrafts need a bigger ship.

    Russia does not need US style aircraft carriers to project colonial control.   The Cruise Princess is not happy about 2035.
    Well, how many Syria style engagements is Russia going to be engaged in from now until then.    Action in Latin America,
    Afrcia, South and South-East Asia?   No chance.   And the Kuznetsov was not needed for Syria anyway.

    The Kuz itself could qualify as a super-carrier.

    Russia needs super-carriers but can't make them because their shipyard is under NATO/Maidan control. Also their defense spending is very low that only allows a token, under-strength Navy.


    Russia defense spending is roughly 40% -50% of the US defense spending.

    Not small money.

    Don't be fooled by the xchg rate, that showing only the level of trade ,commercial and financial relationship with the US.


    And maybe it is hard to realise, but russia at the moment building its next generation aircraft carrier group.
    Spending money to use the K and get experience from it.

    That cost and mean  more  than cutting a few plate and making reactor vessel.

    The most expensive component of a carrier group is not the ship itself, but the crew/industrial background.

    50%? Not even close, even if you use an actual purchace power of the rub on Russian market its nowhere even remotely close to US military spending.
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    russian future aircraft carriers

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:12 am

    Militarov wrote:

    50%? Not even close, even if you use an actual purchace power of the rub on Russian market its nowhere even remotely close to US military spending.


    Ahem.

    So let analyse two probable outcome.
    1. you are right. The CCCP GDP was around 50% of the US GDP, it means that the whole democracy, market economy doesn't has ANY effect to the level of living / economical performance of a country.
    Means that the whole iraq/afgan/japan/german and all other nation building was simply empire building, boosted with access to the US market.
    2. You are wrong. In that case you try to calculate the Russian military industry performance based on factors including the easiness/ efficiency to market / sell a house and the legal system efficiency to settle personal injury cases


    By my experience the whole country economical performance is not equal with the manufacturing industry overall performance.
    Example in Poland if you want to manufacture a tank engine you need X hours.
    In UK you need the same amount of hours.

    If you want to sell your house in Poland you need to spend 30 hours with that.
    In the UK you need to spend 3 hours with that task.


    See?

    The government command 2-5% of the manpower of a country for defense purposes.

    The capability of the military depending on the effectiveness of usage of funds for this purposes, including the required hours for maintenance, manufacturing, training.


    This has quite weak connection with the relative economical performance based on the US economy as baseline.


    Say the Russian entertainment industry has 50% efficiency compared to the US , on required man hours/ to produce one hours worth of comedy .
    It will means that in Russia they need two person to replace the molten salt battery of a SAM rocket , and in US they need one person only?


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