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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    eehnie
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:12 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    eridan wrote:After the Vikramaditya/gorshkov ordeal, i'd think India would be quite wary of ordering something from someone who's got little experience in building it themselves. Planes? Ok. Subs? Fine. But when it comes to shipbuilding, especially large, specialized vessels, russian know how seems not to be where it should be.

    Vikramaditya/gorshkov ordeal?  A little context pls? Given that the Indian-built INS Vikrant will have taken nearly 10 years from laying down the keel (Feb 2009) to her expected service entry (Dec 2018) and will have cost ~$3.8B (original estimate was only $0.5B!!), she is a close match for the Vikramaditya who required 10 years and $2.35B.  Vikramaditya is bigger, faster and carries more aircraft, and after her extensive reconstruction she is essentially a brand new ship.

    I'd say that India made the right call.  Buy one carrier, while build one of your own.  If anything, they'll get more bang for their rupee with the Russian offering.



    An interesting find  for this discussion - not to mention level of nuclear reactor technology in Russia is on top world level and also unit costs say 2 for India 2 for Russia makes significant unit cost reduction. Guess latest news about leasing SSN Kashalot to India, modernization of SU-30 MKI, selling/off-setting Yak-242 or PAK FG might be a part of bigger deal.




    http://flotprom.ru/2016/ТорговляОружием65/

    Russia has offered to build India nuclear aircraft carrier project 23000Э "Storm". On this edition of Defense News said a high-ranking source in Indian defense Ministry.




    For future nuclear aircraft carriers Russian design selected integral reactor RITM-200, which is designed for nuclear-powered icebreakers of the new generation of project 22220. Its peculiarity is the enrichment level of the fuel uranium-235 lowered to 20% (from 40 - 90% at naval nuclear power plants previous generations). It allows you to export these reactors without violating agreements on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons technologies.

    Aircraft carrier project 23000 (code "Storm") so far only exists in the form of layout that Krylov state research center have demonstrated for the first time in 2015. Its concept was developed together with the Nevsky design Bureau.

    Displacement of the ship is expected to reach 100 thousand tons, length - up to 330 meters, maximum speed - 30 knots. The carrier is counting on the placement of 80 - 90 aircraft.

    At the end of June the information appeared that the technical design of advanced nuclear aircraft carrier "Storm" for the Russian Navy will begin in 2020, and construction would not be completed until 2030-ies.

    Very interesting project, I hope they advance with it, and the first unit can be done by 2025.

    Surely there is not better use of the Mistral funds for Russia than to impulse the Project 23560 of new Destroyer/Cruiser and the Project 23000E of new Aircraft Carrier, opening completely the production lines of modern ships for the entire range of military ships by 2025.
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    hoom
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:39 am

    New large floating dock laid down at Zvezda in Pacific.
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2101932.html

    114 x 14 x 485 meters
    Apparently they have orders for 7 'Aframax' tankers/gas carriers & its for that.
    ...But those are also the kind of dimensions suitable for servicing (or building?) a 100k size carrier scratch
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:08 pm

    Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

    Like the Chinese do.
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005



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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:58 pm

    George1 wrote:Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

    Like the Chinese do.
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005


    They can't just pull what the PRC and PLAN did. First they need to build/convert a shipyard to bring it to the USSR's Nikolayev's standard and that alone will take many years. The Chinese invested a good two decades in their programme to get a second CV on the pipeline (1st indigenous attempt) that's probably bigger than the Kuz itself.



    Last edited by KiloGolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  medo on Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:05 pm

    Actually new Russian shipyard Zvezda in Vladivostok will be finished in coming years and will be capable to build carriers as it is designed to build the largest ships.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:08 pm

    medo wrote:Actually new Russian shipyard Zvezda in Vladivostok will be finished in coming years and will be capable to build carriers as it is designed to build the largest ships.

    I like it when the future tense tends to be used on such issues, thus agreeing with my point. Very Happy
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:24 pm

    George1 wrote:Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

    Like the Chinese do.
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005


    It would make sense if they could keep the cost down, install nuclear reactor and catapults.

    I think that Russian Navy does not need larger carriers than Kuznetsov class, provided they upgrade it properly. But they seem determined to go ''full Nimitz''.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

    Like the Chinese do.
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005


    It would make sense if they could keep the cost down, install nuclear reactor and catapults.


    They will, like 6 moths ago there was in TASS interview with admiral (forgot name but can be found in new AC thread) was talking about concepts of 2 different types, both nuclear powered:


    1) 20,000t+ classbased on elemnts of Leader hull
    2) 80,000 t class


    PapaDragon wrote:
    I think that Russian Navy does not need larger carriers than Kuznetsov class, provided they upgrade it properly. But they seem determined to go ''full Nimitz''.

    All depends on missions planned. I ma a big fan of VSTOL but Russie does not seem to re-born this concept. Maybe planned MiG Concept of VSTOL light fighter in connection with V gen. Otherwise light AC make not much sense.

    Big guys have more like 50 navalized PAK-FA what is good Battle group protection and can perform tasks far away frmm own shores. Cost might be prohibitive though. Maybe 2-3 could be built.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:45 am

    1) 20,000t+ classbased on elemnts of Leader hull
    2) 80,000 t class
    Well thats new & interesting Shocked

    20,000 is pretty small, presumably that'd be just a helicopter carrier, maybe just referring to the Mistral replacement?
    Makes me think of this for some reason (though it'd have been well under 20k)


    I like the idea of a 100k full kitted out monster but it does seem to make more sense to start out with an improved Kuznetsov or two like China & India, though 'bigger' may well be one of the main requested improvements.

    Also: 'dat crane Exclamation makes that pretty large ship look tiny in my brain even though I know it's really a damn big crane Suspect
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:11 am

    Carriers are expensive and last for decades... it would not make sense to build some new carriers based on the Kuznetsov.

    They can upgrade the K with nuke propulsion and a basic EM cat system for heavy AWACS aircraft perhaps and also replace the old weapons and electronics with new systems like new SAMs and remove the Granits and replace that with 2-4 UKSK launchers so that it can carry some anti sub missiles and anti ship missiles and some long range land attack weapons.

    VSTOL are poor substitutes compared to real aircraft, and very vulnerable to IR detection as well with their large IR signature.

    A slightly bigger carrier and fixed wing aircraft like MiGs and PAK FAs and you get a much more capable aircraft... that is not so different from its land based equivalent which saves a lot of money too.

    They want helicopter carriers for interventions, and they want fixed wing aircraft carriers to protect their ships... two different requirements with likely two different types of carriers that result.

    One will be a fixed wing carrier and the other will be a helicopter carrier.

    There wont be a Nimitz type 100K carrier... at most it will be 80K and likely less.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:32 am

    George1 wrote:Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

    Like the Chinese do.
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005

    By the time the Russian shipyards can be ready, the project 23000E should be ready for production.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Project Canada on Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:38 pm

    I think the new Zvezda shipyard in Vladivostok has more potential than the previous USSR shipyard Nikolayev since Zvezda is facing open sea, while ships built in Nikolayev will have to go through the bosporus strait, which could be restricted by the Turks.

    BTW why didn't they come up with building a huge shipyard in the Arkengelsk region that can build Aircraft carriers? Is it because of the climate? Its in open sea too, unlike in the baltics and black sea
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:21 pm

    Severodvinsk...
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Project Canada on Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:10 pm

    hoom wrote:Severodvinsk...

    Im sorry, i forgot to mention, however my impression is that the shipyard there is mostly for sub construction. Maybe it can be expanded to accommodate construction of large surface ships as well
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:55 pm

    Project Canada wrote:
    hoom wrote:Severodvinsk...

    Im sorry, i forgot to mention, however my impression is that the shipyard there is mostly for sub construction. Maybe it can be expanded to accommodate  construction  of large surface ships as well

    It lacks capable dockyard cranes to begin with.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:55 am

    There is no point in building Carriers now... they need more modern smaller vessels to operate with the current carrier, and of course they need support vessels and a world wide network of foreign friendly bases to "visit" too.

    I suspect a production start date of 2022-2023 with operational capability 2030 or so for the first new carrier and 2034 for the second.

    I would hope they plan a drastic upgrade of the K between now and 2022 that would include a nuclear power plant and complete upgrade of sensors and weapons and perhaps a small simple EM cat to allow a heavier AWACS aircraft to operate from the carrier.

    In mid 2020s an upgrade of aircraft to add PAK FA in a naval version.

    As I said elsewhere I would add UKSK capability because that adds supersonic and later hypersonic anti ship and land attack cruise missile capability and anti sub capability too...



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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:03 am

    I am really interested in this particular topic, especially the new aircraft carrier and the shipbuilding facilities that may eventually construct these vessels.

    In my own view I do believe that Zvezda Shipyard is the potential candidate for the future aircraft carrier production facility.

    As shown:

    TVERKI

    As shown they have already installed in the first stage of the construction two goliath type cranes and they did announce another type of goliath type crane that has a lifting capacity of 1,200 tons. As these cranes are installed during the first phase of construction of the shipyard it would seem that these are of a smaller capacity but this is just the first phase, the installation of the 1,200 ton capacity crane will be installed in the second phase as mention by Igor Sechin.

    Later, the President was able to personally verify this – he inspected the area of installation work of the complex, where a few days ago was delivered of modern specialized cranes with lifting capacity of 320 tons. Moreover, these impressive units is only a part of a joint contract with plant with Chinese partners. In the near future on the «Star» appears, tap the type of «Goliath», lifting capacity 1200 ton, it’s almost 3 Boeing-747. The word «unique» here is not for effect – such cranes in Russia never imported and are not exploited.

    I watched in Sdelanounas the installation of these cranes.





    Also during President Putin's visit to the Zvezda Shipyard three weeks ago you can notice the presence of Deputy Minister of Defence Yuriy Borisov and Rogozin is also present which adds to my speculation of the Zvezda Shipyards potential role in the naval shipbuilding program.



    Given also the sheer dimension of the dry dock which is 114 x 14 x 485, one would assume that it will cater to large naval orders in the future.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:37 pm

    A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.



    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:26 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

    The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

    The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


    The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:46 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

    The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

    The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


    The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.

    I'll venture to say that steel bought and processed in the far East is cheaper than Europe. So Zvezda is positioned very well in that regard. I have no idea what the Russian industry in the region is like, but they could fill the gaps by getting some modules built in Korea and/or China.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:59 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

    Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon russia

    The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

    The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


    The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.

    I'll venture to say that steel bought and processed in the far East is cheaper than Europe. So Zvezda is positioned very well in that regard. I have no idea what the Russian industry in the region is like, but they could fill the gaps by getting some modules built in Korea and/or China.

    Out of question.

    You can't build warship modules in antoher country.

    You need to make them there.

    And the cost of the steel irrelevant, the hours that you need to make them is the most important.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_trafo on Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:There is no point in building Carriers now... they need more modern smaller vessels to operate with the current carrier, and of course they need support vessels and a world wide network of foreign friendly bases to "visit" too.

    I suspect a production start date of 2022-2023 with operational capability 2030 or so for the first new carrier and 2034 for the second.

    I would hope they plan a drastic upgrade of the K between now and 2022 that would include a nuclear power plant and complete upgrade of sensors and weapons and perhaps a small simple EM cat to allow a heavier AWACS aircraft to operate from the carrier.

    In mid 2020s an upgrade of aircraft to add PAK FA in a naval version.

    As I said elsewhere I would add UKSK capability because that adds supersonic and later hypersonic anti ship and land attack cruise missile capability and anti sub capability too...


    From russia standpoint it is irrelevant if China, _India or Russia build carriers.

    All of the hold up the US military force, and grinding it into useless pieces, if they try to cover the whol eworld.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:34 pm

    Russia to build new naval aircraft carrier based off experience in Syria



    The experience the Russian Navy have had in Syria because of the involvement of the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov in combat operations will help guide the construction of a new aircraft carrier according to the chairman of the State Duma’s defense committee, Vladimir Shamanov.

    "Any experience that we’ve gained will certainly come in handy in building a new aircraft carrier. Creating such a ship has long been an urgent need, because our country is washed by seas and oceans all around. We are destined to not only restore, but also to build up the fleet’s combat potential," he said to TASS.

    Shamanov believes that The Admiral Kuznetsov’s participation in the operation in Syria could be described as "another step forward in developing our Navy, because the effectiveness of the most advanced weaponry it gets should be put to test in situations approximating combat ones, if not real combat operations, and not stay idle," TASS reported him as saying.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-build-new-naval-aircraft-carrier-based-off-experience-syria/
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:49 pm

    "Urgent" by 2035.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Firebird on Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:22 pm

    Something that really puzzles me is the claim that the USSR was never interested in building or using aircraft carriers. OK it WAS later than the US etc in developing them but, look at this:-

    1)Moskva helicopter carrier- 3 planned, 2 completed
    2)Kiev aircraft carrier - 4 completed
    3)Kuznetsov aircraft carrier - 2 built
    4)Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier -1 part built, 3 planned.

    This was the situation in about 1991.
    You could certainly suspect more would have been planned.

    These were all newish or brand new ships (barring the Moskvas).
    Its conceivable that ALL (except the Moskvas) would have been in service today.

    I wonder how rebuilding will go, once the Eurasian Union grows and strengthens?
    Ofcourse there has been talk of 6 huge Storm carriers. And 2 sizes of heli carriers. Maybe as much as a total of 6 or 8 there? Priboy and Lavina, as I recall.


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