Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Share
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1299
    Points : 1324
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Thu May 04, 2017 12:20 am

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:It is curious to see how some people here is obsessed with smaller aircraft carriers than the US has (better if they are only helicopter carriers), or..., if big aircraft carriers are done, they must be to counter China (as US tools).

    WTF.

    There is here a bench of "Russian supporters" that are sistematically talking against every real Russian ally. Just trolling.

    And yet there are also people that are saying how China is somehow biggest Russian ally, based on what.. noone really knows.

    Stop liying. The people is not silly.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0#/media/File:SCO_MAP_10_July_2015_-_Including_two_new_permanent_members_Pakistan_and_India.png



    https://www.rt.com/news/385912-russia-backs-iran-shanghai-pact/
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 4994
    Points : 5102
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 04, 2017 1:05 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:It is curious to see how some people here is obsessed with smaller aircraft carriers than the US has (better if they are only helicopter carriers), or..., if big aircraft carriers are done, they must be to counter China (as US tools).

    WTF.

    There is here a bench of "Russian supporters" that are sistematically talking against every real Russian ally. Just trolling.

    And yet there are also people that are saying how China is somehow biggest Russian ally, based on what.. noone really knows.

    Stop liying. The people is not silly.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0#/media/File:SCO_MAP_10_July_2015_-_Including_two_new_permanent_members_Pakistan_and_India.png



    https://www.rt.com/news/385912-russia-backs-iran-shanghai-pact/


    Holy crap, somebody painted map green !!!

    Russian allies confirmed lol1
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1299
    Points : 1324
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Thu May 04, 2017 1:33 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:It is curious to see how some people here is obsessed with smaller aircraft carriers than the US has (better if they are only helicopter carriers), or..., if big aircraft carriers are done, they must be to counter China (as US tools).

    WTF.

    There is here a bench of "Russian supporters" that are sistematically talking against every real Russian ally. Just trolling.

    And yet there are also people that are saying how China is somehow biggest Russian ally, based on what.. noone really knows.

    Stop liying. The people is not silly.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0#/media/File:SCO_MAP_10_July_2015_-_Including_two_new_permanent_members_Pakistan_and_India.png



    https://www.rt.com/news/385912-russia-backs-iran-shanghai-pact/


    Holy crap, somebody painted map green !!!

    Russian allies confirmed lol1

    Ridiculous. The map is real, like the words of Lavrov of the last link.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1170
    Points : 1329
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu May 04, 2017 1:38 am

    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok guys, here's the thing, i have been looking at the map and the only places i can see for Russia to one day build a true blue-water fleet are the Northern regions of Murmansk and the Kamchatka region, because i am not to sure of the amount of ice these places have i was asking whether any future carrier would have ice-breaking abilities.

    On that note, i have been wanting to ask whether there are any major plans to expand the naval base in Kamchatka?

    The russians legitimately have no good area to build a base for a carrier fleet.

    Since all the ships would require icebreaking ability and the other regions can be locked down to bottle up the Carrier fleet.

    People don't seem to understand the Russians have no viable warm water naval ports that have open access to the ocean all.

    The only way for Russia to change this is to build annex land which they will not do or perhaps build a major base near the Kurils while they will be close to japan. They will have some easy access to the pacific.

    This is a problem they have had since soviet times and one they cannot solve unless some seas stop freezing over or they magically get some new land.

    Your argument only applies to the arctic ocean and baltic sea(irrelevant). The black sea hasn't frozen since the 50s and will never freeze again. Same with Vladivistok. So Russia is perfectly capable of having a blue water navy in the pacific. Once it secures Syria as an eternal ally so will the black sea fleet be capable of becoming blue water in the mediterranean.



    Buliding carrier battlegroup in Black sea? Why not in a bathtub? Syria is not a good place for carrier to be permanently deployed either. Best place that Russia has on disposal for carrier fleet is Pacific fleet.
    The Persian gulf is also not a good place to keep carriers. That doesnt stop the US navy from putting one of them there.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5518
    Points : 5563
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Thu May 04, 2017 11:30 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Ok guys, here's the thing, i have been looking at the map and the only places i can see for Russia to one day build a true blue-water fleet are the Northern regions of Murmansk and the Kamchatka region, because i am not to sure of the amount of ice these places have i was asking whether any future carrier would have ice-breaking abilities.

    On that note, i have been wanting to ask whether there are any major plans to expand the naval base in Kamchatka?

    The russians legitimately have no good area to build a base for a carrier fleet.

    Since all the ships would require icebreaking ability and the other regions can be locked down to bottle up the Carrier fleet.

    People don't seem to understand the Russians have no viable warm water naval ports that have open access to the ocean all.

    The only way for Russia to change this is to build annex land which they will not do or perhaps build a major base near the Kurils while they will be close to japan. They will have some easy access to the pacific.

    This is a problem they have had since soviet times and one they cannot solve unless some seas stop freezing over or they magically get some new land.

    Your argument only applies to the arctic ocean and baltic sea(irrelevant). The black sea hasn't frozen since the 50s and will never freeze again. Same with Vladivistok. So Russia is perfectly capable of having a blue water navy in the pacific. Once it secures Syria as an eternal ally so will the black sea fleet be capable of becoming blue water in the mediterranean.



    Buliding carrier battlegroup in Black sea? Why not in a bathtub? Syria is not a good place for carrier to be permanently deployed either. Best place that Russia has on disposal for carrier fleet is Pacific fleet.
    The Persian gulf is also not a good place to keep carriers. That doesnt stop the US navy from putting one of them there.

    That is different, they do not use Gulf as permanent base, its not their homeport, they are there on deployment.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5518
    Points : 5563
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Thu May 04, 2017 11:31 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:It is curious to see how some people here is obsessed with smaller aircraft carriers than the US has (better if they are only helicopter carriers), or..., if big aircraft carriers are done, they must be to counter China (as US tools).

    WTF.

    There is here a bench of "Russian supporters" that are sistematically talking against every real Russian ally. Just trolling.

    And yet there are also people that are saying how China is somehow biggest Russian ally, based on what.. noone really knows.

    Stop liying. The people is not silly.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0#/media/File:SCO_MAP_10_July_2015_-_Including_two_new_permanent_members_Pakistan_and_India.png



    https://www.rt.com/news/385912-russia-backs-iran-shanghai-pact/

    lol!
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16281
    Points : 16912
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 04, 2017 12:36 pm

    It is curious to see how some people here is obsessed with smaller aircraft carriers than the US has (better if they are only helicopter carriers), or..., if big aircraft carriers are done, they must be to counter China (as US tools).

    WTF.

    There is here a bench of "Russian supporters" that are sistematically talking against every real Russian ally.

    Some real Russians see China as a potential threat... and why would they not... China is no buddy of Russia and acts in its own interests.

    Therefore it is best to ensure Russia has capabilities to counter them if needed.

    If not needed of course they can be used against other more real problems like the US and UK etc.

    The US needs huge carriers to bomb countries and to mount invasions... they need 100K ton super carriers with large capacities of aircraft types for strike roles, and helicopter carriers to mount landings in places like Somalia and Grenada and Iraq etc etc.

    The Russians don't need that... a decent ability to carry capable fighters to escort their ships and subs is what they need... any land attack can be mounted by cruise missiles... currently by Kalibr but later by hypersonic Zircon...the F-35 on US carriers wont match Mach -8 penetration of enemy air space performance...

    A really big carrier is more expensive to buy and to operate... it offers capabilities the Russians wont need or even want.

    Ok guys, here's the thing, i have been looking at the map and the only places i can see for Russia to one day build a true blue-water fleet are the Northern regions of Murmansk and the Kamchatka region, because i am not to sure of the amount of ice these places have i was asking whether any future carrier would have ice-breaking abilities.

    On that note, i have been wanting to ask whether there are any major plans to expand the naval base in Kamchatka?

    The russians have the worlds largest fleet of icebreakers... if they want to operate carrier groups in ice they could.

    The Northern Fleet and Pacific fleets are the only places they would find carrier groups useful to operate from most of the time.

    The Black Sea can be bottled up with little Effort via the Bos straight. also, a carrier fleet will never be deployed within the black sea.

    Vladivostok can be locked down by Japan with Ease with US assistance try again.

    Are you a bit slow?

    The point of carrier groups is not to hang out around their port of origin... you sail them out into open water and resupply them there... they leave port in times of tension... times of tension is not a good time to try to bottle up a fleet in the Black Sea or Vladivostok... the reaction could be lethal.

    And yet there are also people that are saying how China is somehow biggest Russian ally, based on what.. noone really knows.

    There is little to no benefit in making China an enemy of Russia.



    Holy crap, somebody painted map green !!!

    Russian allies confirmed

    The real problem is that so many have their brains locked in the cold war.

    Russia can have friendly relations with Turkey and China and India and Pakistan and Taiwan and North and South Korea... it is the advantage of a no longer communist Russia that is just interested in commerce and cooperation with countries not looking to screw them like the west does.

    That is different, they do not use Gulf as permanent base, its not their homeport, they are there on deployment.

    True, but then the threat of a nuclear strike on any country that attacks their carrier group in port... say Vladivostok, would be an excellent deterrent against a country like say Japan who might think of supporting a pre-emptive self defence attack.

    As such that port is no less or more safe than any other on the planet... US ports hosting super carriers will be glowing 30 minutes after kickoff... I doubt US allies near Russian ports could do worse to be honest.

    Besides in WWIII carrier groups and a navy are not going to be worth shit to Russia anyway.

    It is during peace time that it gives her power and capacities to do certain things that a lack of such things means she can't do.

    Britain and the US didn't become great and then develop their navies... they became great because they developed great naval forces.

    Air power means air cover for their ships and subs away from Russia, and it also means better air warning of threats... better sight with AWACS platforms (fixed or rotary) and better protection with fighter aircraft that can be sent out to investigate threats rather than just shoot them down.

    Flexibility and of course better information in times of conflict and times of peace.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 774
    Points : 776
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Isos on Thu May 04, 2017 1:57 pm




    That is different, they do not use Gulf as permanent base, its not their homeport, they are there on deployment

    Still stupid to put one in a place like that where antiship missiles can be lunched in low-low trajectory and where Iranian Kilo subs are very hard to detect.
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1299
    Points : 1324
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Thu May 04, 2017 3:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:Russia can have friendly relations with Turkey and China and India and Pakistan and Taiwan and North and South Korea... it is the advantage of a no longer communist Russia that is just interested in commerce and cooperation with countries not looking to screw them like the west does.

    The first part is right, but the communism has nothing to do with it. There are other communist countries having friendly relations with its neighbors that are also interested in commerce and cooperation.

    GarryB wrote:
    It is curious to see how some people here is obsessed with smaller aircraft carriers than the US has (better if they are only helicopter carriers), or..., if big aircraft carriers are done, they must be to counter China (as US tools).

    WTF.

    There is here a bench of "Russian supporters" that are sistematically talking against every real Russian ally.

    Some real Russians see China as a potential threat... and why would they not... China is no buddy of Russia and acts in its own interests.

    Therefore it is best to ensure Russia has capabilities to counter them if needed.

    If not needed of course they can be used against other more real problems like the US and UK etc.

    The US needs huge carriers to bomb countries and to mount invasions... they need 100K ton super carriers with large capacities of aircraft types for strike roles, and helicopter carriers to mount landings in places like Somalia and Grenada and Iraq etc etc.

    The Russians don't need that... a decent ability to carry capable fighters to escort their ships and subs is what they need... any land attack can be mounted by cruise missiles... currently by Kalibr but later by hypersonic Zircon...the F-35 on US carriers wont match Mach -8 penetration of enemy air space performance...

    A really big carrier is more expensive to buy and to operate... it offers capabilities the Russians wont need or even want.

    The Black Sea can be bottled up with little Effort via the Bos straight. also, a carrier fleet will never be deployed within the black sea.

    Vladivostok can be locked down by Japan with Ease with US assistance try again.

    Are you a bit slow?

    The point of carrier groups is not to hang out around their port of origin... you sail them out into open water and resupply them there... they leave port in times of tension... times of tension is not a good time to try to bottle up a fleet in the Black Sea or Vladivostok... the reaction could be lethal.

    That is different, they do not use Gulf as permanent base, its not their homeport, they are there on deployment.

    True, but then the threat of a nuclear strike on any country that attacks their carrier group in port... say Vladivostok, would be an excellent deterrent against a country like say Japan who might think of supporting a pre-emptive self defence attack.

    As such that port is no less or more safe than any other on the planet... US ports hosting super carriers will be glowing 30 minutes after kickoff... I doubt US allies near Russian ports could do worse to be honest.

    Besides in WWIII carrier groups and a navy are not going to be worth shit to Russia anyway.

    It is during peace time that it gives her power and capacities to do certain things that a lack of such things means she can't do.

    Britain and the US didn't become great and then develop their navies... they became great because they developed great naval forces.

    Air power means air cover for their ships and subs away from Russia, and it also means better air warning of threats... better sight with AWACS platforms (fixed or rotary) and better protection with fighter aircraft that can be sent out to investigate threats rather than just shoot them down.

    Flexibility and of course better information in times of conflict and times of peace.

    I have not doubt some Russians see China as a threat, and would love to see the Russian Armed Forces used to counter China, like the US would like, following the scheme used in the Arab countries around Israel, promoting the fight between them so make safer Israel. I would bet this Navalny oppositor does, as example. But well, Russia has a gouvernment that does not see China as a threat.

    Your comment that say: "If not needed of course they can be used against other more real problems like the US and UK etc.", is enlightening about where you are, and comes after to see you denying the attacks of Israel to Syria. For me is not casual, that you come also in defense of small aircraft carriers for Russia, and to defend explicitly that Russia does not need aircraft carriers of the size of those owned by the US, despite what has been published in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, and about the Project 23000 aircraft carrier, which would be of 90000-100000 tons (in the size of the aircraft carriers of the US). You really think Russia would offer to India bigger aircraft carriers than what Russia plans to have?

    https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/07/20/russia-offers-nuclear-aircraft-carrier-to-india_613285

    I would not expect Russia to use its aircraft carriers like the US does, to invade other countries, but at same time, I do not think your defense of small aircraft carriers for Russia is right.

    You said some thing about why Russia would need their aircraft carriers. To escort ships and subs, for better sight with AWACS platforms, for better air warning of threats, and by economic reasons. Can you elaborate more about what is threatening these Russian ships and subs to need to be escorted? Can you elaborate more about what can threat a good sea based air warning of threats? Can you elaborate more about what can threat sea based AWACS platforms?
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1299
    Points : 1324
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Thu May 04, 2017 3:41 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:It is curious to see how some people here is obsessed with smaller aircraft carriers than the US has (better if they are only helicopter carriers), or..., if big aircraft carriers are done, they must be to counter China (as US tools).

    WTF.

    There is here a bench of "Russian supporters" that are sistematically talking against every real Russian ally. Just trolling.

    And yet there are also people that are saying how China is somehow biggest Russian ally, based on what.. noone really knows.

    Stop liying. The people is not silly.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0#/media/File:SCO_MAP_10_July_2015_-_Including_two_new_permanent_members_Pakistan_and_India.png



    https://www.rt.com/news/385912-russia-backs-iran-shanghai-pact/

    lol!

    Isael does not laugh with the map. It has been reported that Israel applied to join the SCO.

    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/06/syria-egypt-israel-apply-to-join-sco.html

    And they applied only to have the same answer that the US had before. Thanks but NO.

    This map reflects what you really fear, also in the refered to the aircraft carriers of Russia.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5518
    Points : 5563
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 05, 2017 12:06 am

    eehnie wrote:Isael does not laugh with the map. It has been reported that Israel applied to join the SCO.

    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/06/syria-egypt-israel-apply-to-join-sco.html

    And they applied only to have the same answer that the US had before. Thanks but NO.

    This map reflects what you really fear, also in the refered to the aircraft carriers of Russia.

    To start with, Israel applied for status of dialogue partner, not to join it as a full member. So did few other countries like Turkey, Sri Lanka and who not. Purely to achieve own benefit, has nothing to do with someone being Russian ally or similar crap, serously.

    Why would i fear anything lol1
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5518
    Points : 5563
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 05, 2017 12:11 am

    Isos wrote:



    That is different, they do not use Gulf as permanent base, its not their homeport, they are there on deployment

    Still stupid to put one in a place like that where antiship missiles can be lunched in low-low trajectory and where Iranian Kilo subs are very hard to detect.

    And then they would bring other 9 carries and scorch the ground where Iran used to be... Smart move right there.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 4994
    Points : 5102
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 05, 2017 3:25 am



    Simple math:

    It costs 10-15 billion dollars to construct super carrier and it takes 10-15 years to do it.

    So for 10-15 billion dollars you have a choice to buy:

    a) 1 x super carrier whose maintenance costs alone would be half a billion per year

    b) 10-15 x nuclear submarines whose maintenance is fraction of that cost combined

    So which option makes more sense from strategic, financial and scheduling standpoint?
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1334
    Points : 1341
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri May 05, 2017 3:51 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Simple math:

    It costs 10-15 billion dollars to construct super carrier and it takes 10-15 years to do it.

    So for 10-15 billion dollars you have a choice to buy:

    a) 1 x super carrier whose maintenance costs alone would be half a billion per year

    b) 10-15 x nuclear submarines whose maintenance is fraction of that cost combined

    So which option makes more sense from strategic, financial and scheduling standpoint?

    What about a smaller carrier around 70+kT, similar to the Kuz?
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 4994
    Points : 5102
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 05, 2017 4:24 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:

    ......

    What about a smaller carrier around 70+kT, similar to the Kuz?

    Kuz is roughly 50kT but something like that would make more sense, especially if it is based on other type of ship like Lider destroyer

    So basically Izumo or Wasp class equivalent with nuclear propulsion (20-30kT tops)

    However everyone here is obsessed with "100K or nothing" approach

    Nobody gives a crap if something like that his even needed

    This is precisely why people who do this for a living stay the hell away from forums
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 515
    Points : 519
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri May 05, 2017 6:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:

    ......

    What about a smaller carrier around 70+kT, similar to the Kuz?

    Kuz is roughly 50kT but something like that would make more sense, especially if it is based on other type of ship like Lider destroyer

    So basically Izumo or Wasp class equivalent with nuclear propulsion (20-30kT tops)

    However everyone here is obsessed with "100K or nothing" approach

    Nobody gives a crap if something like that his even needed

    This is precisely why people who do this for a living stay the hell away from forums

    It's not that a 100k Carrier would not have use it would, however, the problem is The Russian Navy does not require such a ship.

    Their naval doctrine does not call for mass carriers or huge Carriers. Russian Naval doctrine is centered around their subs a Decent sized surface fleet.

    Carrier strike groups do no fit into this mold, now they will need Carriers. India is Making them, China is, the US.

    I know some people will say "But they are allies". Unless Russia adds said land to their own, that means nothing allies can change at the drop of a dime.

    Nothing is guaranteed, Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded by their own thoughts.

    Russia WILL require at least four carriers in the future, right now however they can do without them.

    Russia needs carriers for a simple reason to protect their own surface fleet and for Strike operations.

    Now you don't need a 100k Carrier to protect your surface fleet, something around 70k Tons is very doable.

    The navy for Russia will always be 3rd rank.

    The army and Airforce always come first, Russia will never devote huge funds to support massive Carrier strike groups.

    The people on here aren't naval officers and they ignore Russia's naval doctrines because they "think" they know better and this is why people like me.

    Love to mock Arm-Chair Admiral and Generals because they think they know better than anyone else including the people who do it for real when the only exprience they have is shit they read online.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16281
    Points : 16912
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 05, 2017 11:12 am

    The first part is right, but the communism has nothing to do with it. There are other communist countries having friendly relations with its neighbors that are also interested in commerce and cooperation.

    I mentioned the absence of communism to highlight that Russia no longer has an ideology to push... they don't need to convert Taiwan or Turkey any more than they have to convert North Korea or Cuba. They have no need to convert of change the countries they trade with... unlike the US/West.

    You really think Russia would offer to India bigger aircraft carriers than what Russia plans to have?

    India was operating Su-30MKIs at a time Russia had Su-27s.

    You said some thing about why Russia would need their aircraft carriers. To escort ships and subs, for better sight with AWACS platforms, for better air warning of threats, and by economic reasons. Can you elaborate more about what is threatening these Russian ships and subs to need to be escorted? Can you elaborate more about what can threat a good sea based air warning of threats? Can you elaborate more about what can threat sea based AWACS platforms?

    Can we agree that Russian subs and ships need protection from enemy air power? I mean they do carry SAMs for that purpose, but then Russian Army units have SAMs as well but the Russian forces would be better protected with the cooperation of the Air Force as well as the Army.

    To have air power to support the navy you need a type of aircraft carrier. You can have big ones, medium ones or small ones. Each has advantages and problems... the big ones are capable but expensive to buy and to operate. The little ones might not be that useful for longer deployments.
    My opinion is that the medium ones (ie 40-70K ton) are better than the big ones (100K ton) or the small ones (20K ton).



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1299
    Points : 1324
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  eehnie on Fri May 05, 2017 2:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The first part is right, but the communism has nothing to do with it. There are other communist countries having friendly relations with its neighbors that are also interested in commerce and cooperation.

    I mentioned the absence of communism to highlight that Russia no longer has an ideology to push... they don't need to convert Taiwan or Turkey any more than they have to convert North Korea or Cuba.  They have no need to convert of change the countries they trade with... unlike the US/West.

    But the communism has nothing to do with it. Do you see China trying to convert other countries? It is possible to be communits a try to convert, and it possible to be communit and to to try not. Like it is possible to be anti-communist and try to convert, and it is possible to be anti-communist and to try not.

    GarryB wrote:
    You really think Russia would offer to India bigger aircraft carriers than what Russia plans to have?

    India was operating Su-30MKIs at a time Russia had Su-27s.
    [/quote]

    This is a mistake difficult to repeat. It was other time.

    According to the Maritime Doctrine of 2015 Russia must have a project of aircraft carrier ready by 2020. At this point the Project 23000 is the alone known project of aircraft carrier, and is proposed with 90000 to 100000 tons. Do you expect to see other project? Based on what? I see nothing to expect a different project. Only comments of people, in many cases with a pro-Western record here, I do not agree with.

    GarryB wrote:
    You said some thing about why Russia would need their aircraft carriers. To escort ships and subs, for better sight with AWACS platforms, for better air warning of threats, and by economic reasons. Can you elaborate more about what is threatening these Russian ships and subs to need to be escorted? Can you elaborate more about what can threat a good sea based air warning of threats? Can you elaborate more about what can threat sea based AWACS platforms?

    Can we agree that Russian subs and ships need protection from enemy air power? I mean they do carry SAMs for that purpose, but then Russian Army units have SAMs as well but the Russian forces would be better protected with the cooperation of the Air Force as well as the Army.

    To have air power to support the navy you need a type of aircraft carrier. You can have big ones, medium ones or small ones. Each has advantages and problems... the big ones are capable but expensive to buy and to operate. The little ones might not be that useful for longer deployments.
    My opinion is that the medium ones (ie 40-70K ton) are better than the big ones (100K ton) or the small ones (20K ton).

    Of course we can agree. Russian ships and submarines need protection from the air power of their adversaries. And to have help from the Russian Aerospace Forces is positive. Even we can agree about the military concept of Aircraft Carrier as a modern and useful concept that allows to expand air coverage to areas that otherwise would have not it.

    But It is necessary to elaborate more about how is projected the air power of the adversaries of Russia to put in risk the Russian ships, the Russian submarines, or the systems of sea based air warning and the sea suport to AWACS platforms. What tools make possible to the adversaries of Russia to project their air power to put in risk Russian ships, submarines and other defense systems?
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1334
    Points : 1341
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri May 05, 2017 6:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:

    ......

    What about a smaller carrier around 70+kT, similar to the Kuz?

    Kuz is roughly 50kT but something like that would make more sense, especially if it is based on other type of ship like Lider destroyer

    So basically Izumo or Wasp class equivalent with nuclear propulsion (20-30kT tops)

    However everyone here is obsessed with "100K or nothing" approach

    Nobody gives a crap if something like that his even needed

    This is precisely why people who do this for a living stay the hell away from forums

    Man, i really shouldn't have used that + sign, the Kuz's reported max is about 61kT so to avoid confusion i used 70+k, which basically means a max of around 70 to 73k, my bad.

    Yea, that 100k or nothing approach just feels like a trap, looking at the Kuz's size compared to the Nimitz it really doesn't seem like much deck wise.



    Yes, i know this is the Chinese carrier.
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1334
    Points : 1341
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri May 05, 2017 6:56 pm

    Guys, i found the perfect carrier to work from, it's a carrier with a weight of 65 to 75T (max),and it's pretty close to the Kuz design.

    Link
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 4994
    Points : 5102
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 05, 2017 10:19 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:.................

    Yea, that 100k or nothing approach just feels like a trap, looking at the Kuz's size compared to the Nimitz it really doesn't seem like much deck wise.



    Yes, i know this is the Chinese carrier.

    You are right.

    Had they kept industrial base for carrier construction then modified nuclear Kuznetzov would have been more than enough.

    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 523
    Points : 523
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Sat May 06, 2017 9:32 am

    Guys, i found the perfect carrier to work from, it's a carrier with a weight of 65 to 75T (max),and it's pretty close to the Kuz design.
    Problem is supposedly Ukraine sold the full design documentation (literally double digits M^3 of the original blueprints) to China dunno

    So I think unless China can be convinced to hand them over/Russian ship design companies have been heavily involved with Chinas' CV program (rumoured to be so) then new CVs will be either heavily based on K or a clean-paper (clean CAD file?) design.

    I really like the style of the well known Shtorm concept but I don't see any problem with doing a fixed/modernised K.
    avatar
    Benya

    Posts : 486
    Points : 490
    Join date : 2016-06-05
    Location : Budapest, Hungary

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Benya on Sat May 06, 2017 9:55 am

    hoom wrote:
    Guys, i found the perfect carrier to work from, it's a carrier with a weight of 65 to 75T (max),and it's pretty close to the Kuz design.
    Problem is supposedly Ukraine sold the full design documentation (literally double digits M^3 of the original blueprints) to China dunno

    So I think unless China can be convinced to hand them over/Russian ship design companies have been heavily involved with Chinas' CV program (rumoured to be so) then new CVs will be either heavily based on K or a clean-paper (clean CAD file?) design.

    I really like the style of the well known Shtorm concept but I don't see any problem with doing a fixed/modernised K.

    Well, even if China hands the blueprints over, I'm sure that they have made enough copies for themselves, so this isn't really a win-win situation.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 523
    Points : 523
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  hoom on Sat May 06, 2017 12:28 pm

    I meant buy a digital copy off China/trade for something.
    avatar
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 445
    Points : 445
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat May 06, 2017 1:32 pm

    The designer of the Kuz is the Nevskoye Planning and Design Bureau, in st Petersburg.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:26 am