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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:31 am

    The mods can go ahead and do what they want. If I cannot point out the obvious about scum posters who make wild accusations, then this forum isn't worth much effort.

    Where is all this hostility coming from Mike?

    You could have made the points and comments you made without making it personal... please tone it down a little.

    I came to this forum to have sensible, respectful discussion. I don't know where you got an idea you can address me in this manner, but it's absolutely unacceptable. I'm not interested to continue this talk with you and I'm gonna report your post to moderators.

    I have to say that the first time I read your post I thought you were trolling.

    You said Russia has no money... yet it is building billion dollar SSBNs and SSNs and upgrading its military across the board.

    You claim we will not see many PAK FAs or Armatas... but with no figures to support that assertion.

    You even suggest they can't build large ships anymore... despite their building half of the Mistral carriers, a carrier for India, several ice breakers.

    Their new design philosophy involves modular components and system... the UKSK launcher in a corvette is just the same as the UKSK launcher in a 25,000 ton Cruiser... the difference is that the Corvette will have one launcher and the cruiser will have ten or more.

    Obviously such new systems need to be tested and they are also having problems with engines... ironically for their bigger boats they have the nuclear propulsion systems developed already so for larger vessels there are actually few problems in that regard.

    Of course there is no point building 6 carriers when there are no support vessels to operate with them...

    There is no point is building air defence fleet carriers when there are no carrier groups to defend.

    Once they start to build those cruisers they have planned then it makes sense to build some carriers.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:48 pm

    The main focus is on two areas: the Arctic and the Atlantic.........

    Even if you could get AC to ram a path trough the Arctic it is redundant because it is basically one giant frozen littoral zone from Russia's standpoint. Coastal units can cover that part without a problem.

    As for Atlantic, that part is where nuke subs operate. Everything else is tertiary compared to that.

    ...The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability......

    What politicians say and what actually happens with military projects in real life are two very different things.

    And since you are so sensitive to Russia being mentioned in any negative context I will instead offer you example of F-35 fighter jet. That thing was officially several years away from combat readiness back when I was in highschool.

    I was in highschool so long ago.

    Any future Russian aircraft carrier will either be very small or will not exist.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:13 pm

    The thing is that a carrier needs escort with him. Specially for anti subs missions. The Ka-27 on the carrier won't be enough without the frigates doing a 1st line of defence at some km from it and the SSN operating near them too. So if you want 1 carrier ( lets say 5 billion $) you need at least 2 SSN (3 billion$) and 3 Frigates (1 billion $) with it, even if you put some missiles on the carrier. With the cost of a min of 24 Aircraft + lets say 20 Ka-27 on it, the cost will be around 15 billion $ for the group and the number will rapidely grow up in reallity as they will need to start from the beggining with a new design.

    Moreover, Russian navy can't operate far from its bases today. That just impossible. Their goal is to secure theire economic zones.

    China in the other hand needs carrier because they will need to fight on open sea if US starts a war. Operating from Mainland won't be that good as they can't Attack US bases in the pacifique from there. Their fighters don't have the range to do that and the small numbers of Tu-16 they have are totally useless as they will be shoot down easily without escort.
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  A1RMAN on Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:26 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Nicely said.  No need to hold the hands of the Russia-haters in this forum, or tolerate their agitprop BS.   Facts are a great disinfectant for such pathogenic agents.

    Aren't you too fast to jump to conclusions? I will say again, my desire is to have discussion on topics I'm interested in. Not to agitate or trash anything. And there's no problem for me to be wrong in some cases, I just expect a calm answer instead of insult.

    You've laughed at me in K thread, when I made an assumption that K could be ready earlier than Redut. A bit of a stretch from me, of course. But there were numerous reports about Redut problems, some of which questioned if we ever see Redut.

    NPO "Almaz" chief was probably fired for a reason.

    And Redut still isn't ready.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

    According to Borisov the reason for this "low level of organization, supply delays, lack of manufacturing equipment and lack of qualified personnel".

    Is Borisov also Russia-hater? This is as official as you can get.


    Last edited by A1RMAN on Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  A1RMAN on Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I have to say that the first time I read your post I thought you were trolling.

    You said Russia has no money... yet it is building billion dollar SSBNs and SSNs and upgrading its military across the board.


    Garry, where did I say that Russia has no money? My idea is that Russia is very unlikely to afford ACs in the near future on top of everything they are building now. The earliest that I think they could start AC project would be 2025-2030.

    GarryB wrote:
    You claim we will not see many PAK FAs or Armatas... but with no figures to support that assertion.

    After 2015 parade Putin said that new weaponry that was shown should be delivered to army as fast as possible.

    Right now 12 PAK-FAs are ordered.

    I don't remember any initial numbers on PAK-FAs. But for me, when they started talking about delaying PAK-FAs and buying Su-35s instead, sounded like a financial choice.

    MOD is thinking about reviewing PAK-FA procurement plans.
    https://vz.ru/news/2016/10/20/839198.html

    PAK-FA program shifts again.
    https://vpk.name/news/174321_yurii_borisov_programma_pak_fa_snova_sdvigaetsya.html?new

    100 Armatas are ordered. including the parade ones iirc.

    What was the number they mentioned? 2100 armatas until 2020? Maybe that was a mistake by official and he meant to say "until 2025". Maybe it was over the top, but officials added that UVZ is building assembly line to handle this line of work. Also Magnitogorsk build additional line to provide metal for this task.

    With current order, I don't see it coming even close to these numbers even until 2025.

    GarryB wrote:
    You even suggest they can't build large ships anymore... despite their building half of the Mistral carriers, a carrier for India, several ice breakers.

    Their new design philosophy involves modular components and system... the UKSK launcher in a corvette is just the same as the UKSK launcher in a 25,000 ton Cruiser... the difference is that the Corvette will have one launcher and the cruiser will have ten or more.

    Obviously such new systems need to be tested and they are also having problems with engines... ironically for their bigger boats they have the nuclear propulsion systems developed already so for larger vessels there are actually few problems in that regard.

    Of course there is no point building 6 carriers when there are no support vessels to operate with them...

    There is no point is building air defence fleet carriers when there are no carrier groups to defend.

    Once they start to build those cruisers they have planned then it makes sense to build some carriers.

    I never said that they can't build new ships. I said that they have difficulties building new ships. Of course, part of it is unexpected Ukraine supply problem. But there's also a professional problem - lack of specialists. I placed a link in my previous post with Borisov quote about professional problems in NPO Almaz. Same problems go in every industry.

    On the bright side, I think Zvezdochka is performing great right now. We hear mostly positive news from them. I hope situation changes for other shipyards.

    Also, I think there's a big difference between building SSBNs and ACs.

    Doesn't matter if they have money or not, they have to build SSBNs - vital part of nuclear triad. Otherwise they are screwed. Not having a single AC (at least for testing) is not a good thing, but they definitely can live with that.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Kimppis on Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:19 pm

    Garry, where did I say that Russia has no money? My idea is that Russia is very unlikely to afford ACs in the near future on top of everything they are building now. The earliest that I think they could start AC project would be 2025-2030.

    I think most people agree with you on that and that has always been the plan. So how are the current "budget cuts" (which indeed, never really happened or rather, they were always part of the plan) relevant?

    After 2015 parade Putin said that new weaponry that was shown should be delivered to army as fast as possible.

    Right now 12 PAK-FAs are ordered.

    I don't remember any initial numbers on PAK-FAs. But for me, when they started talking about delaying PAK-FAs and buying Su-35s instead, sounded like a financial choice.

    I think they were originally planning for around 50-60 by 2020. But to me it's still not entirely clear whether those 12 are the only ones to be delivered by 2020. It's just the initial order, whatever that means. Also, they have ordered around 100 Su-35s in total by 2020. It seems to me that was always the plan and they didn't increase the order due to PAK-FA.

    100 Armatas are ordered. including the parade ones iirc.

    What was the number they mentioned? 2100 armatas until 2020? Maybe that was a mistake by official and he meant to say "until 2025". Maybe it was over the top, but officials added that UVZ is building assembly line to handle this line of work. Also Magnitogorsk build additional line to provide metal for this task.

    With current order, I don't see it coming even close to these numbers even until 2025.

    That was never the case, obviously. Mistranslations, etc. The plan is to have around 2500 "modern" tanks by 2020, not only Armatas. So that includes upgraded T-72s and T-80s, operational T-90s and Armatas. They are obviously going to keep producing Armatas until the early 2030s, atleast. They have been upgrading hundreds and even thousands of T-72s for a reason.

    Militarov wrote:50%? Not even close, even if you use an actual purchace power of the rub on Russian market its nowhere even remotely close to US military spending.

    True. I'd say it's around 25% of the US spending and overall capability, so something like $150 billion in comparable terms.
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  A1RMAN on Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:48 pm

    Kimppis wrote:

    I think most people agree with you on that and that has always been the plan. So how are the current "budget cuts" (which indeed, never really happened or rather, they were always part of the plan) relevant?

    If it's true that military budget of 2017 wasn't cut, then I'm sorry. Probably missed some news. I remember MOD official stating that they will have 5 or 6% decrease of 2017's budget.

    Kimppis wrote:
    That was never the case, obviously. Mistranslations, etc. The plan is to have around 2500 "modern" tanks by 2020, not only Armatas. So that includes upgraded T-72s and T-80s, operational T-90s and Armatas. They are obviously going to keep producing Armatas until the early 2030s, atleast. They have been upgrading hundreds and even thousands of T-72s for a reason.

    Российская армия получит 2300 танков на базе бронеплатформы «Армата». Об этом рассказал в понедельник, 14 сентября, в эфире радио «Эхо Москвы» генеральный директор научно-производственной корпорации «Уралвагонзавод» Олег Сиенко.

    По словам Сиенко, государственная программа вооружений предполагает поставку армии 2300 единиц «Арматы» до 2020 года, однако, вероятнее всего, она будет скорректирована по срокам: «Объемы, наверное, останутся, а вот период сдвинется к 2025 году». Сиенко также сообщил, что предприятие по заказу Минобороны разрабатывает технику для работы в арктических условиях: тягачи и вооружение, способные действовать при экстремально низких температурах.

    2300 armatas until 2020 or 2025.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  eehnie on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    eehnie wrote:On sea, the philosophy must be the same. Is the aircraft what determines the lenght of the airfield, and as consecuence the lenght and size of the Aircraft Carriers.

    Not really. Carriers are made as small as practical to keep costs down.

    In the future UAVs and UCAVs will significantly effect the size of modern carriers.

    eehnie wrote:Note that the doctrine explicitly mentions more than one aircraft carrier and serial production of aircraft carriers.

    They are not going to build ten 100Kt super carriers, but they are going to make the navy strong.

    The superpowers of recent history have become superpowers because of their strong navies... they did not become strong and then build a strong navy... they build strong navies first and that made them global powers.

    Your answer to the first quote is missing the real reasons of why the aircraft carriers where done as small as possible in the past. The main reasons were technical, not economical.

    1.- In the 1960s or the 1970s it was out of question to operate in aircraft carriers, aircrafts of 30 tons, even aircrafts of 20 tons.
    2.- But then most of the combat aircrafts used were significantly smaller. As example the MiG-21 is an aircraft of 10 tons.
    3.- As consequence, at the time, the difference between a bigger or a smaller aircraft carrier was not in the firepower of the aircrafts carried. Aircrafts of similar firepower were available for both.
    4.- Then the technical fight was about to reduce the lenght of the runway needed by the aircrafts, but the aircrafts used were of about the same firepower. At the time small aircraft carriers, and the aircrafts (VTOL) that were able to use them was considered an advantage in costs without a significant lose of firepower. We can compare the size of the Yak-38 with the sice of the MiG-21, and we see how is about the same.
    5.- But it was a mistake to include not in the economical balance of the smaller aircraft carriers to include not the costs of development and production of the specific aircrafts for aircraft carriers.

    This philosophy of specific aircrafts for aircraft carriers was ruled out time ago. Even in the 1980s The Sovietic Union designer ist last aircraft carriers in a transition toward the standardization. While the Yak-38 was a totally different aircraft the Su-33 shared the same basis than the Su-27.

    Today the picture for the design of aircraft carriers is different:

    1.- Bigger aircrafts are in the mix for aircraft carriers of the current size.
    2.- To find the limits on size of the aircraft carriers is not considered positive because it has an effect over the safety of the operations with aircrafts that leads to some expensive loses with the time.

    ---

    About the second quote, it is obvious that the reference to serial production includes the units to export, but not only. The doctrine says clearly that Russia plans to have more than one aircraft carrier in the future (likely 2). And after an official presentation of the Project 23000 of aircraft carrier, this seems the model that is going forward under the plan.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  eehnie on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:45 pm


    I do not see Russia following the way of the US, using its Navy, its Aircraft Carriers to impose their military power over the adversaries.

    But if Russia wants to have friends outside of the continental platform of Asia, must be able to defend them. Today, everyone that appears as friend of Russia outside of Asia is heavily attacked.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:21 pm

    As it seems russia needs the carriers to protect the arctic routes.

    So the most probable is the nextac will be based on the super icebreaker, with ice capability, and to work on all year long in the arcitv with icebreaker help.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Militarov on Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:11 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:I don't understand how some people here came to a conclusion that Russia has money to develop, build at then maintain full-scale AC.

    Current military budget is being cut. New types of weaponry are delayed and purchasing numbers are decreasing. We are gonna see comparably low numbers of T-50, Armata and other new systems in upcoming years. Officials stated many times that the reason for this is financing.

    And in this situation you expect them to throw in billions in developing and building ACs + air wings + helos? Not to mention that we currently have technological and professional (workers, engineers) problems with building much smaller, less complex ships.

    Because you know about fuck all about budget.

    Take a look at SAP2020 and SAP2025.  Cutting budget isn't even happening with procurement idiot.  SAP2020 is only 40% used of over 20T rubles.  But I figure you are too dumb to do math.

    "Only 40% used".

    Its not like they piled up the money in some room. That money is being allocated though fiscal year. Percentage of how much of it was used has no value whatsoever, it might as well end up being halved in final score, we do not know atm what will happen. Might get increased, halved... we dont know.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:46 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:As it seems russia needs the carriers to protect the arctic routes.

    So the most probable is the nextac will be based on the super icebreaker, with ice capability, and to work on all year long in the arcitv with icebreaker help.


    No they don't.

    They already have bases up there.

    There will be no ACs in the Arctic.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:07 am

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:I don't understand how some people here came to a conclusion that Russia has money to develop, build at then maintain full-scale AC.

    Current military budget is being cut. New types of weaponry are delayed and purchasing numbers are decreasing. We are gonna see comparably low numbers of T-50, Armata and other new systems in upcoming years. Officials stated many times that the reason for this is financing.

    And in this situation you expect them to throw in billions in developing and building ACs + air wings + helos? Not to mention that we currently have technological and professional (workers, engineers) problems with building much smaller, less complex ships.

    Because you know about fuck all about budget.

    Take a look at SAP2020 and SAP2025.  Cutting budget isn't even happening with procurement idiot.  SAP2020 is only 40% used of over 20T rubles.  But I figure you are too dumb to do math.

    "Only 40% used".

    Its not like they piled up the money in some room. That money is being allocated though fiscal year. Percentage of how much of it was used has no value whatsoever, it might as well end up being halved in final score, we do not know atm what will happen. Might get increased, halved... we dont know.

    then take a gander at Austin's post because that was the agreement by everyone in Duma. They will exceed what was to be spent for sap 2020 by 2019.
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    kvs

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  kvs on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:36 am

    eehnie wrote:
    I do not see Russia following the way of the US, using its Navy, its Aircraft Carriers to impose their military power over the adversaries.

    But if Russia wants to have friends outside of the continental platform of Asia, must be able to defend them. Today, everyone that appears as friend of Russia outside of Asia is heavily attacked.

    Aircraft carriers are banana republic, colony control enforcement relics. They have zero value for defense. America uses them to
    police the 3rd world and terrorize weak countries. It will never use them against Russia since they would not reach Russia's shores.
    Since Russia has no ambitions to rule the world, it does not need them. But operations to support countries like Syria can use
    them, but these operations are of the same type as US operations: colonial policing.

    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:10 am

    kvs wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    I do not see Russia following the way of the US, using its Navy, its Aircraft Carriers to impose their military power over the adversaries.

    But if Russia wants to have friends outside of the continental platform of Asia, must be able to defend them. Today, everyone that appears as friend of Russia outside of Asia is heavily attacked.

    Aircraft carriers are banana republic, colony control enforcement relics.   They have zero value for defense.   America uses them to
    police the 3rd world and terrorize weak countries.   It will never use them against Russia since they would not reach Russia's shores.
    Since Russia has no ambitions to rule the world, it does not need them.    But operations to support countries like Syria can use
    them, but these operations are of the same type as US operations: colonial policing.

    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S. U.S uses, and will use these "colonies" as you put it to shore up its economic interest and maintain its hegemony in world politics etc etc. The USSR failed. The Americans did not. While anyone morally invested might want to aspire to a different way of handing international relations....the old ways of "might makes right" still reigns supreme.

    The criticism of "bankruptcy" and cost has little weight.

    I agree with eehnie and will disagree in the fact that even in Central Asia they're attacked. Although the efforts are not as strong. If Ukraine doesn't make that clear I don't know what will? Attempts towards Belarus will only intensify, even if some fail (as the ones currently). Either the tide is reversed or the tide will swallow up Russia. There is no in-between.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  eehnie on Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:04 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    I do not see Russia following the way of the US, using its Navy, its Aircraft Carriers to impose their military power over the adversaries.

    But if Russia wants to have friends outside of the continental platform of Asia, must be able to defend them. Today, everyone that appears as friend of Russia outside of Asia is heavily attacked.

    Aircraft carriers are banana republic, colony control enforcement relics.   They have zero value for defense.   America uses them to
    police the 3rd world and terrorize weak countries.   It will never use them against Russia since they would not reach Russia's shores.
    Since Russia has no ambitions to rule the world, it does not need them.    But operations to support countries like Syria can use
    them, but these operations are of the same type as US operations: colonial policing.

    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S. U.S uses, and will use these "colonies" as you put it to shore up its economic interest and maintain its hegemony in world politics etc etc. The USSR failed. The Americans did not. While anyone morally invested might want to aspire to a different way of handing international relations....the old ways of "might makes right" still reigns supreme.

    The criticism of "bankruptcy" and cost has little weight.

    I agree with eehnie and will disagree in the fact that even in Central Asia they're attacked. Although the efforts are not as strong. If Ukraine doesn't make that clear I don't know what will? Attempts towards Belarus will only intensify, even if some fail (as the ones currently). Either the tide is reversed or the tide will swallow up Russia. There is no in-between.

    Yes the US will try also in Asia, but the situation is different, with China and India, they are not strong enough there. But outside of Asia they are going very, very hard against who can be a friend of Russia.

    Also answering to kvs, I think we see in Syria just the two models ans both the US and Russia are present. In Syria, Russia is playing defense, not attack. Is the US who is playing attack. Today very clearly.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:57 am


    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S.
    If the only way for Russia to succeed is to emulate the US and Britain then I hope they never succeed.

    Carriers are great for enforcing colonial rule over other countries but that is not what Russia needs... they need a portable light air force they can take with them wherever they choose to operate.

    They don't need 100K ton carriers like the US... much smaller carriers will be fine.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:55 am

    GarryB wrote:

    The best defense is a good offense. If Russia leaves that void open, someone will take it. That be China, or currently the U.S.
    If the only way for Russia to succeed is to emulate the US and Britain then I hope they never succeed.

    Carriers are great for enforcing colonial rule over other countries but that is not what Russia needs... they need a portable light air force they can take with them wherever they choose to operate.

    They don't need 100K ton carriers like the US... much smaller carriers will be fine.

    I don't think it's smart for the U.S to have that many carriers either with 20 trillions in debt. They should downsize to at least half. The U.S should downsize many things but they're insane. The point is, as you say, Russia needs a "portable air force". Small carriers full of drones? Who knows. As for today, the current standards prevail. Russia can't obviously afford it now if we take into consideration other more pressing needs for their Navy but it's key for power projection - and to protect one's allies in the rest of the world at a moments notice. Counter coup interventions etc. For example - anyone that wants to threaten the U.S in Latin America will need carriers. Cubans can only do so much helping others get in power. Everytime one gets in, the government gets trashed by information warfare, economic warfare, sabotage and the successors (if they're so lucky to survive the election) - "couped". And Latin America is ripe for a power challenge from another super power since it's extremely poorly armed. A couple of secured Naval bases gives you a solid anchor. USSR made a huge mistake not challenging them hard in Latam (south) but that's another topic.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:15 am

    Small carriers full of drones?

    If you want unmanned aircraft to defend your carrier platform then S-400s and S-500s would do a much better job in defence and Calibr and Kh-101/102 a better job in attack.

    Manned aircraft certainly with the support of unmanned aircraft make the best defence/offence... meaning a carrier and not a missile carrying vessel... if you want the latter an Akula with 50 UKSK launchers would make more sense.

    Keeping it all cost effective is the key... mouldarity, multirole ships and subs plus air support and they should have a tight, small powerful navy and no one wants to tangle with.

    They don't need to be able to invade countries at will... that is an american thing.

    the ability to defend themselves on the open sea is what they need. and it does not need to be expensive... the boost in trade and commerce should help it pay for itself in the long term.

    There are plenty in the world that deal with the US and the west because there is no viable alternative... that can change.


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:00 pm

    The new russian carrier will be based on the LK-110Ya class.
    That ship propulsion system is like /as strong like the Nimitz / Ford carriers. The width is the same as well.

    Means if Russia can make the LK-110Ya then it can make Nimitz / Ford class carrier as well.

    It has to be ice stenghtened, to be capable to cross the arctic all year round with icebreaker .

    It is not simply option to operate in the arctic, but means that it can move between the atlantic and pacific ocean throught friendly waters.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:32 pm

    Intersting picture that shows the size of carriers. Kuz' size is very nice for a future carrier. The big problems are the Granit that takes lot of space under the deck which can be used to store more fighter, lack of catapult for AWACS, non-nuclear propulsion and the very big bridge which can be reduced in size with updated technolgies. They can transform it into a catamaran by adding some surface on the left with more space to park aircrafts and addig two catapults.

    The second interesting thing on this picture is the Indian Vikrant class which is awfull and smaller than the Vikramaditya.

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:11 am

    Any updates on Shtorm?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:09 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Any updates on Shtorm?

    Vaporware
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:46 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Any updates on Shtorm?

    Vaporware

    No, just not a priority. At best a supercarrier or two allows Russia to be more forceful during interverventions against small states (eg supporting Syria against jihadi orcs), but that isn't an existential need, and they won't do this until other pressing priorities are sorted. Carriers are likely to be of limited use in battles between peer-adversaries as the advent of reliable high-performance AShMs (including SRBMs & IRBMs) will make the job of defending these huge obvious targets all the more difficult.

    It only takes ONE hit by a decent AShM like an Oniks to inflict a mission kill on even the largest carrier. A carrier that cannot launch or recover aircraft due to a fucking great burning hole in its deck is less than useless. it is no longer an asset, but a huge LIABILITY that will soak up resources in order to protect (and her crew) and make the job of defending the fleet even more difficult. Hit one with a Granit after her escorts defensive potential is absorbed by waves of smaller missiles, and its a wreck, and PR NIGHTMARE for the USN.

    The USN brass stay awake at night due to nightmares of 4-5 sub-launched Oniks slamming into the side of a Ford-class carrier. The Russian navy brass just don't need that sort of needless aggravation.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:32 pm

    Key dates:
    Kuznetsov refurbishment finish date : 2020-2022
    LK-110Ya class construction start : 2021

    Based on this the earlies date for the Russian super aircraft carrier is 2023.
    Most probable is 25.

    They have to learn how to make new, complex ships. The icebreaker will be the most important milestone in this process.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

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