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    Future russian aircraft carriers.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:14 am

    Wouldn't Russia be better off with LHC's instead?

    The primary use of a carrier is air cover/air support/air surveillance and you don't really get that from a helicopter carrier.

    You need fixed wing aircraft and catapults for heavier aircraft like AWACS and AEW aircraft.

    If they give the Kuznetsov a decent upgrade they could certainly get by with building just 3 new carriers...


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    TR1

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:15 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I think the best option is 3 medium aircraft carriers 1 in the northern fleet and 2 in the pacific fleet.
    With growing tensions almost everywhere in the south they really need some aircraft carriers!

    Why?

    Why does Russia really need some carriers?
    For what tensions?
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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:34 am

    Russia needs aircraft carriers because the subs of the northern fleet need aviation.
    There are Some tensions between china and japan, phillipines, Vietnam etc.

    But was not a good reason because russia Doesnt care.
    And they shouldnt!

    But i still think they need Some good AC to keep Up with other navies.

    I think china now has a better navy then Russia.
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    TR1

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:37 am

    Better in what way? China's submarine fleet is nowhere near as potent. It's fleet lacks in many core capabilities. Of course it also has many more newer ships than the Runavy...but so what? China's navy is of little concern to Russia. In fact, the more China spends on its navy, the better for Russia, from a security standpoint.

    Northern fleet needs aviation why? Russia has the longest ranged fighters in the world, they can do fine for its purposes.

    As you can tell, I am not particularly in favor of carriers. Not when other priorities need to be met first.

    Kuznetsov with new propulsion and MiG-29Ks is enough for me for now.
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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:Better in what way? China's submarine fleet is nowhere near as potent. It's fleet lacks in many core capabilities. Of course it also has many more newer ships than the Runavy...but so what? China's navy is of little concern to Russia. In fact, the more China spends on its navy, the better for Russia, from a security standpoint.

    Northern fleet needs aviation why? Russia has the longest ranged fighters in the world, they can do fine for its purposes.

    As you can tell, I am not particularly in favor of carriers. Not when other priorities need to be met first.

    Kuznetsov with new propulsion and MiG-29Ks is enough for me for now.

    The surface fleet of china is better then the russian navy for sure but About the sub fleet no country has a better submarine fleet then russia Thats for sure to!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:40 am

    I could care less whether China has or has not got a "better navy".

    Russia needs carriers because her navy needs air power to grow and expand and reach her full potential.

    I do however also agree that for now the K is good enough... Russia doesn't have the support structure or support ships to operate 4 carriers now.

    A serious upgrade to the K however is needed and over the next two decades they need to plan and put into service two more carriers... Don't rush them, don't make them super carriers able to kill everything and anything expensive stealthy white elephants.

    Make them cheap practical useful vessels that carry aircraft to expand the sight and reach of the surface fleet and offer an extra layer of protection for surface and subsurface units.

    Air power is a critical force multiplier for the Navy (and Army).


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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:16 am

    I dont think one carrier is enough for a Powerfull country like russia.
    Build another medium AC based on the kuznetsov with the granit missiles (or an updated version of it) and the AC wont need Much escorts.
    And then you Will always have atleast one AC ready for deployment when needed.
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    GJ Flanker

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GJ Flanker on Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:16 am

    Russia should build heavy nuclear carriers, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

    Russia don't have friendly ports nor bases around the world like the USA. They need a strong autonomic battle group, able to sustain heavy attacks and able to powerful strike back.

    A new Russian carrier should have nuclear propulsion, electromagnetic catapults, AESA radar system, most advanced multirole fighters (T-50K or MiG-XXK), advanced helicopters, first class ASW and AEW aircraft and UCAV/UAV. There is time enough to get it right, they don't need to hurry.

    Small carriers are for smaller navies. Russia has great interests in the Arctic region and must control the passages to the Arctic from both, the Atlantic and the Pacific, side.
    They also need carriers in the southern regions of the Oceans for support of their blue water fleets.
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:42 am

    GJ Flanker wrote:Russia should build heavy nuclear carriers, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

    Russia don't have friendly ports nor bases around the world like the USA. They need a strong autonomic battle group, able to sustain heavy attacks and able to powerful strike back.

    A new Russian carrier should have nuclear propulsion, electromagnetic catapults, AESA radar system, most advanced multirole fighters (T-50K or MiG-XXK), advanced helicopters, first class ASW and AEW aircraft and UCAV/UAV. There is time enough to get it right, they don't need to hurry.

    Small carriers are for smaller navies. Russia has great interests in the Arctic region and must control the passages to the Arctic from both, the Atlantic and the Pacific, side.
    They also need carriers in the southern regions of the Oceans for support of their blue water fleets.      
    If you mean heavy as in supercarrier heavy i disagree. A Kuz is 55k ton- so maybe a 65-70k ton vessel would suffice if we are
    expecting a supercarrier length service life (40 -50 years) out of it. The extra tonnage would be good for upgrading the AC over
    the years.
    Regarding a strong autonomic battle group, I think nuke power for the whole battle group is necessary.
    Also about VLS, I agree with GarryB, heavy ashms are no longer needed in the AC. I would put S-500/400 in VLS tubes buried
    in the deck, maybe squeeze them with the EMALS.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:23 am

    Russia should build heavy nuclear carriers, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

    I pretty much agree with everything you said in that post, though I would not want to see the Russians try to build 100,000 ton carriers like the US.

    60-70K ton would be the biggest they should go and I would support more exotic technologies as well... like huge airships for AEW/AWACS, and UCAVs.

    There was talk about the new carriers being subsurface, surface(sea and land), air, and space combat ready, so naval S-500s and S-400s will be part of the armament too.

    I also agree they need nuclear propulsion for all their carrier group vessels for long endurance and speed where needed... they need new compact but powerful reactors that are as safe as they can possibly be.

    Small carriers are for smaller navies.

    There is a correlation between weight and cost, but also in deployment of aircraft... they want the smallest lightest carrier with the most aircraft on board... the best combination.

    Your making a mistake the US currently has 2 f 18 aircraft one for fighter and one for strike but there is a big difference between f-18 hornet and f-18 super hornet the super hornet replaced the f 14 and the hornet replaced the a-6/a-7 BUT the most modern air wing on carriers is the one stationed in Japan 2 squadrons of f18f super hornet (strike) s and 2 squadrons of f 18E super hornets.(fighter)

    Hornets hornets hornets... call them stealthy and triple the price but at the end of the day they are the same plane.

    The F-35 will replace the Hornet in the strike role, but the external weapon capacity of the Hornet will mean it will remain the fighter of choice.


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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:52 pm





    The blueprint of Russia's next-generation aircraft carrier will be ready in six years.

    The announcement was made by the state shipbuilding company working on the design.

    No details have been released yet. Earlier reports suggested it will be nuclear-powered, with a displacement of 80,000 tons. Soviet carriers had a maximum of 50,000 tons.

    It is not clear if the ship will actually be built, as the Defense Ministry is deciding whether Russia needs a second aircraft carrier at all. Anyway, the design bureau says, by the time the ministry makes a decision, the aircraft carriers price and design need to be blueprinted.

    If approved, the new carrier would be part of the Defense Ministrys decade-long plan to upgrade the Russian military. The program is expected to cost Russia over 23 trillion rubles.

    This one of three designs made by State Shipbuilding Company.

    The design is clearly based on the Queen Elizabeth class you can see both navalized PAK FA and MIG-29K aircrafts.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:00 am

    I think it will take too long to build and the design is too detectable for future naval combat. The conning tower should get a low RCS design and the tonnage dropped to 65000-70000 tons.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:31 am

    This one of three designs made by State Shipbuilding Company.

    The design is clearly based on the Queen Elizabeth class you can see both navalized PAK FA and MIG-29K aircrafts.

    One of many potential designs...

    why do you say it is clearly based on the Queen E Class?

    Do you think that is the only carrier design with that layout?

    do you have access to Russian design archives?


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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    This one of three designs made by State Shipbuilding Company.

    The design is clearly based on the Queen Elizabeth class you can see both navalized PAK FA and MIG-29K aircrafts.

    One of many potential designs...

    why do you say it is clearly based on the Queen E Class?

    Do you think that is the only carrier design with that layout?

    do you have access to Russian design archives?


    No i dont have acces to Russian Design Archives Wink 

    And i never have seen an aircraft carrier with two towers except for the Queen Elizabeth class so that is why i thought so.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:58 am

    I have seen plenty of designs (drawings and models) with two towers... one to control the aircraft from and one to control the ship from...


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:14 am

    Weve discussed alot of Things About future aircraft carriers of Russia but what we dont discussed alot were the escorts.

    I would say one nuclear Powered aircraft carrier, 2 of those new destroyers russia is going to build, 3-4 Admiral gorshkov class frigates and 1-2 yasen class submarines, wouldnt that be one hell of a power projection force?? Wink 


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    Viktor

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:44 am

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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:22 pm

    Finally some common sense. Without a modern catapult aircraft carriers are completely useless. No AWACS mean that they can operate only against enemies with non-existent ground defenses.
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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:36 pm

    AMAZING who knows it is for the K but it is for future AC for sure!
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    Flyingdutchman

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    Russia May Build New Aircraft Carrier by 2023 – Designer

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:38 pm

    MOSCOW, February 3 (RIA Novosti) – The development and construction of a new aircraft carrier for the Russian navy could take about 10 years, a St. Petersburg-based ship design bureau said Monday.

    Sergei Vlasov, general director of the Nevskoye design bureau, said the overall cost of the ship could range between 100 and 250 billion rubles ($2.8-7.1 billion).

    “If the ship will be armed with a variety of weaponry, its cost will skyrocket, but if it will carry only air defense systems, the cost will be less,” the official said.

    Vlasov said his bureau could design both a nuclear-powered and conventional version of the aircraft carrier. The former would have a deadweight of up to 85,000 metric tons, while the latter – up to 65,000 tons.





    © RIA Novosti.

    Admiral Kuznetsov. INFOgraphics.


    The nuclear-powered ship would be able to carry some 70 aircraft and helicopters, while the conventional vessel – up to 55, he said.

    Vlasov added that the new carrier would serve as a seaborne platform for new-generation fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, in particular a fifth-generation fighter set to replace the Su-33 multirole fighter aircraft currently in service, as well as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

    According to Vlasov, the Russian navy needs at least four aircraft carriers: two for the Northern Fleet and two for the Pacific Fleet.

    At present, Russia has only one aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, built in 1985, with a displacement of 55,000 metric tons, a crew of 1,500 and capability to carry more than 50 aircraft.


    http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140203/187171199/Russia-May-Build-New-Aircraft-Carrier-by-2023--Designer.html
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:12 pm

    Nice, 85k tons sounds awesome!!!. With PAK-FA and potentially LMFS as her air wing this would be the most powerful AC!!!
    Even better if they manage to make it cost a hell of a lot less than the Gerald Ford- would make even the murican navee jelly.
    Yasen and Borei are already giving the best western subs a run for their money- would be delicious if the russkies can beat them
    at Aircraft carriers too.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:07 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:Nice, 85k tons sounds awesome!!!. With PAK-FA and potentially LMFS as her air wing this would be the most powerful AC!!!
    Even better if they manage to make it cost a hell of a lot less than the Gerald Ford- would make even the murican navee jelly.
    Yasen and Borei are already giving the best western subs a run for their money- would be delicious if the russkies can beat them
    at Aircraft carriers too.

    The russian cant ever beat the usa in aircraft carriers the russians will be able to defeat the UK and France tough.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:28 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    collegeboy16 wrote:Nice, 85k tons sounds awesome!!!. With PAK-FA and potentially LMFS as her air wing this would be the most powerful AC!!!
    Even better if they manage to make it cost a hell of a lot less than the Gerald Ford- would make even the murican navee jelly.
    Yasen and Borei are already giving the best western subs a run for their money- would be delicious if the russkies can beat them
    at Aircraft carriers too.

    The russian cant ever beat the usa in aircraft carriers the russians will be able to defeat the UK and France tough.


    You mean Russian's can't ever beat America's $17 trillion debt, that's largely contributed by the 11 mega carriers in the U.S. Navy? If Russia want's to "beat" a U.S. aircraft carrier than they can do it at 1/1000th the cost of a carrier, it's called advanced anti-ship missiles, a Kh-32 travelling at mach 5 carrying a 1000kg warhead should do the trick.
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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:53 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    collegeboy16 wrote:Nice, 85k tons sounds awesome!!!. With PAK-FA and potentially LMFS as her air wing this would be the most powerful AC!!!
    Even better if they manage to make it cost a hell of a lot less than the Gerald Ford- would make even the murican navee jelly.
    Yasen and Borei are already giving the best western subs a run for their money- would be delicious if the russkies can beat them
    at Aircraft carriers too.

    The russian cant ever beat the usa in aircraft carriers the russians will be able to defeat the UK and France tough.


    You mean Russian's can't ever beat America's $17 trillion debt, that's largely contributed by the 11 mega carriers in the U.S. Navy? If Russia want's to "beat" a U.S. aircraft carrier than they can do it at 1/1000th the cost of a carrier, it's called advanced anti-ship missiles, a Kh-32 travelling at mach 5 carrying a 1000kg warhead should do the trick.

    Thats not where we were talking about....
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers.

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:56 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    The russian cant ever beat the usa in aircraft carriers the russians will be able to defeat the UK and France tough.
    Why not? the russkies are the ones who are best aware of the the threats to an AC- they invented most of them.
    Sure, the other side can boast an insane amount of experience in operating their carriers but most of that is based on decades(ww2 era) old tactics and strategies.

    Also, on its own the russky AC would be deadlier than the Gerald Ford/Nimitz carriers, simply because it would be packing SAMs, and cruise missiles aside from its airwing which is much better than the latters.

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